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7:00 PM
knowing how to manage money is extremely important, something bernie ain't too good at
 
presidents don't manage the money, congress does
 
valid
 
evidently not in the past 3 years
 
presidents need to be diplomatic, military and ethical leaders
 
foreign he wouldn't be awesome, i agree
but nor would bernie
 
7:01 PM
Bernie is great, the world loves him
 
I think bernie is your best candidate for foreign politics lol
 
how?
 
People might actually take u guys seriously
 
cf, who?
 
@MwBakker ... I can't believe you thought it was ok to post this shit
 
7:02 PM
@ColdFusion because of all the candidates he's arguably the most trust worthy and Trump has destroyed the world's trust in American foreign policy
 
i mean how is bernie great for foreign policy?
 
@Mehdi Tim has posted it consequence free as well
 
1 message moved to Trash can
 
bernie's entire campaign is based on domestic social policy
 
Got two stars nevertheless
 
7:03 PM
what was that?
 
Not saying that I agree that it belongs here, just like, be aware before you get too mad at the guy
 
@DaveS meh nobody trusted america to begin with , for trust to be destroyed
 
But wouldn't a trustworthy president be the first step in regaining global trust?
 
theres no point in debating candiates
debating the policy of those canidates is more usefull
 
7:04 PM
i dont see how is bernie trustworthy?
not saying trump is
 
@JBis That's what I thought last election lol
@ColdFusion you literally said he was trustworthy last week
what changed
 
@ballBreaker I believe in common sense honestly, I don't want to have to babysit grown up people who keep trying to push the limits of what's accepted and what's not. At first I really thought it was "by mistake", but at some point it just seems that some just try to see where the limit is
 
@ColdFusion because he's been saying and following through with the same things his entire career even when it was unpopular
 
of course Mehdi, I just wanted to play devil's advocate on that particular picture, not saying it's okay by any means
 
@DaveS You minimize bloomberg down to a billionaire from wall street who did stop and frisk and that was racist.
 
7:05 PM
Just trying to at least show the other side so any ingrained bias didn't lead to something too drastic
But yeah, I know what you're saying..
 
@DaveS lol, but i disagree with the stuff hes been saying
 
No I minimize him as an uncharasmatic, racist billionaire who bought his way into an election, has moderate un motivating policies and doesn't seem right for the job of president
 
@Mehdi For what it's worth I don't really try to push the limits here, I'm aware of where they are, but slip up occasionally lol
 
medicare for all and eliminating student debt
and getting rid of private ensurance
raising minimum wage to a living wage
 
it was originally a living wage btw
the economy was just fine
 
7:07 PM
just cause it works doesn't mean we should do it
 
oh so you don't think anyone working 40 hours a week should be able to live?
 
@ballBreaker i said honest and was talking about domestic , now we are talking about foreign policy its a whole different ball game
 
fair enough
 
@DaveS many do and can today
 
I hope you have to work a minimum wage job and try to support yourself at some point JBis
do the math ffs
you can't even get an apartment on minimum wage
 
7:08 PM
^
 
i agree, federal mnimum wage should be raised
but not to some crazy number
 
$15/hr isn't a crazy number
 
@DaveS for the domestic yes that is why i said he was honest before , not sure that would make the world believe him
 
@ColdFusion I'd argue more so than any other candidate
 
@DaveS its not in some places it is in other places. Why should the minimum wage in NY (a place with some of the highest cost of living) be the same as other places?
$15 an hour is nyc is not crazy
maybe it should even be more
 
7:10 PM
no I agree it should be adjusted federally based on the cost of living in the county
 
(btw bloomberg supports $15 minimum wage)
 
but in most cities you need around $15.hr
don't get me wrong I'd vote for bloomberg over Trump in a heartbeat
 
@DaveS hmm probably i guess
 
he's just my least favorite of the major candidates in the primary
 
@DaveS i'd have a very hard time voting for bernie over trump
i'd do it but be very unhappy
 
7:12 PM
yeah didnt bloomberg basically bought into the primaries?
or is there another way to get into so late?
 
ok heres another argument that pisses me off
"bought into the primaries", what does that even mean?
 
bought mean bought right?
 
"He used his hard earned wealth to run for office because he wanted to help the country and didn't take donations from anyone because he wanted them to keep their money instead of funding a campaign he can afford himself"
 
i mean how did he got into the race so late?
or is there a legit way you could get into?
 
@ColdFusion he simply didn't register for early states
thats why he hasn't been on the ballet for many states
 
7:14 PM
ok weird
 
@DaveS my biggest problem with bloomberg is his use of data (aka Cambridge Analytica 2.0)
i'm hoping sometime in the near future a presidental candiate will bring up that issue
 
that ship has sailed
everyone has access to it and will use it to be competitive
to not would mean to lose
 
unless you prevent it so everyone can't use it
 
yes but that takes policy and it won't happen until after this campaign
 
I didn't like that bloomberg was buying ads on meme pages on instagram
that bothered me and I thought it was out of touch with the young user base who it was geared towards
and that I have to see political ads for his stuff even as a canadian
But that's small fry stuff
I don't really have much meaningful reasons not to like bloomberg other than the fact that I don't think governments should be run like businesses, and I am always weary of businessmen because people who get that rich are almost certaintly psychopaths or narcissists at the least
But I'm not even american so my opinion doesn't really matter that much
so that's all I say on the matter w.r.t bloomin' onionberg
 
7:20 PM
America has an unhealthy obsession with wealth and falsely attribute success with "goodness"
that somehow the less fortunate deserve it
and that if you just work hard you'll be fine
I'm voting for any candidate that helps to reverse that unhealthy way of thinking
 
yes of course man, the "American dream" has been shoved down so many throats for so many generations that obviously it would change from "I want enough, I want to go to america and have enough to live and live prosperous" to "I want more than everybody else, and anyone who is poor didn't work hard enough and doesn't deserve anything"
But that's my take on that subject as a non-american
 
@DaveS in most instances I don't believe in this, however I also don't believe it should be the riches legal obligation to help them
@DaveS wealth = success in any capitalistic society
 
no it should be society to not allow low wage captive labor
it should be society who can gaurantee basic humane living conditions for its members
 
:nod:
 
the wealthy profit only because society exists, they are rich because society gave them that wealth, they can give a higher proportion back to help others
 
7:23 PM
Are you not attributing any of their wealth to their ideas and hard work?
 
1 person can only do so much
it took a team of employees to make it happen and customers to purchase their stuff
 
@JBis rich people don't work harder than poor people man
 
ofc
 
I don't know why you would think that
sorry nvm
 
even the wealthy will benefit from a stable lower class with disposable income
 
7:24 PM
but rich people pay their employees
 
Your question was loaded
 
not enough because they can
 
and employees choose to work for them
 
a lot of employees are stuck, they can't afford to move, or change jobs or take time off or afford health insurance
people living at the poverty level are really in a shit spot
 
That's not someone's business's job to fix
 
7:25 PM
no it's societies job to fix it
 
ok
 
the government is not a business
 
and the way to fix it is not handouts
 
no shit
 
its education
 
7:26 PM
it's living wages and health insurance
 
taxes aren't handouts bud
 
and education yes
 
it's education more than anything
 
not necessairly
the cost of living needs to be managed as well
we do need people to work jobs in fast food restaurants and be servers etc
 
@DaveS sure, Ive come around on health care for all. But I still believe private should exist.
 
7:27 PM
I don't understand how you could attribute the problem to education when every other first world country has outgrown problems that have existed in your country for generations
 
@DaveS for another 10 years if they are lucky
 
not everyone can be educated into a good paying job, some people just aren't smart, half the people have an IQ less than 100
 
Sucks
 
my point is we have more than enough wealth to prop people up, I think that would be GREAT for the economy and great for everyone
 
if you can't do anything you are a drain to society
 
7:29 PM
no they can, they can clean, or work factory jobs etc
they just shouldn't be treated like dirt for it
 
@DaveS I don't think trickle up economics works
 
it does though
it increases demand
and the companies take the profits
 
@DaveS that's not nothing
 
I'm not supporting doing nothing
I'm saying people out there work 80 hours a week and need roomates and can't afford health insurance or a car
 
@JBis what should be done with those people?
 
7:30 PM
I could make the same argument in reverse for trickle down
both work IN THEORY
 
you need to look at studies
 
but never in practice
 
trickle up returns more than in invested
trickle down returns less
 
Source please
 
Trickle down is bullshit because it never trickles since the wealthy just hoard everything.
 
7:31 PM
^
How does one person spend billions of dollars evenly distributed
 
trickle up is bullshit because it never trickles since the poor are too stupid to spend it properly
 
My hot take: if your fortune starts with the letter B you're a piece of shit who doesn't care enough about people. I don't care if you donate a ton of it, if your fortunate starts with a B you still have too much.
 
I'm not going to lie, your arguments in the past 10 minutes have been really telling about your age Jbis
 
@JBis What does this mean?
 
7:32 PM
> The net effect: Every dollar in cash aid increased total economic activity in the area by $2.60.
 
@AdamMc331 I'm with you on that one
 
Thanks bb. I support people whose name starts with a B. :)
 
@AdamMc331 why?
thats pretty prejudimental
 
Because that is an unfathomable amount of money that no one person needs
 
@JBis are you fucking stupid? they don't have enough, so they are going to finally pay rent, maybe save some and then buy things with disposable income. That's a pretty ugly demonization of the poor
 
7:33 PM
no it's not
 
is it prejudgemental like you just assumed every poor person was stupid?
 
^
 
@AdamMc331 lol
@AdamMc331 yikes that is taking it too far imo
 
@DaveS I'm not going to debate with you if you are going to go after me personally
 
I'm not going to debate with you when you say some dumbass classist shit like all poor people are soo stupid they can't spend money properly
that's the ugliest fucking thing I've heard you say
 
7:35 PM
Here's the nuance that I think JBis is missing: We think poor people spend their money poorly because they don't save, but the problem is that they have no way of getting ahead, so of course they're going to spend it on small joys - alcohol, drugs, etc.

If you give people a chance to work, with a safety net, and feel like they can be successful, they will take it. They will be more responsible with that money, because they don't live in a perpetual state of "well it's not gonna get me anywhere anyways."
 
it's a simplified point like the one Adam made, theres some merit to it but simplifying it so much is wrong
 
i linked a source, read it
 
If you are worried about people spending their money improperly, and you think the problem is poor people and not billionaires with super yachts and private jets and giant mansions, then I think you're part of this problem.
 
duh you peeps are missing both rich and poor are people they are bound to make mistake and some are bound to be successful
 
@AdamMc331 it's not a problem per se
 
7:36 PM
The problem is that at my salary, a high end NYC salary, I would have to work over SIX THOUSAND years, to have 1 billion dollars.
Why? Do you really wanna tell me billionaires are 6,000 times smarter than me?
 
6k years wow
 
no
 
Okay
then why do they deserve it?
When people are starving, don't have healthcare, and a plethora of other issues?
 
because they earned it and you didn't?
 
Just 6k times more successful
 
7:37 PM
Why?
I work 40+ hours a week, I'm well educated and hard working, etc. I won't live for another 6,000 years, so I will never amass that money.
 
@ColdFusion this
 
I wish my daddy gave me a million dollars so I could be successful
 
Tell me why
LOL they earned it?!?!
That's a myth!
 
I'd say many of the people in this room are probably smarter than trump
 
Why haven't I earned it? If it's as simple as working hard, being smart, and all that pull yourself up from the bootstrap shit, why haven't I earned it? Why haven't you?
 
7:39 PM
I know drug dealers that have more money than me
 
It's not that simple
 
Why are you defending someone who has an amount of wealth that you never will?
 
money doesn't mean shit about a person at the core
 
look the world is not fair it doesn't work the way we want it to work
 
@AdamMc331 because I aspire to have that wealth
 
7:39 PM
Okay
 
@ColdFusion there is something that's worth noting, it takes on average 5 generations to reach the "average" income level weforum.org/agenda/2018/08/…
 
but I think it's more telling on the upper end, what people do with their money, what kind of person they are
 
@ColdFusion this
 
Why?
 
 
7:40 PM
What do you need with it, and why would you hoard that money away from people that it could help?
 
i'm all for hatin' on billionaires but that's a weak argument IMO
 
ahh yes the classic, the world isn't fair so nothing should change argument lol
 
Also, reality will soon hit you and realize those aspirations will never be reality.
 
@AdamMc331 because a whole combination of factors led him to his richness it didn't for you , is not his fault
 
lol
 
7:40 PM
@AdamMc331 you also need something else, otherwise everyone would be a billionaire
 
Yeah the reality that you aren't goign to be a billionaire usually hits around like 20 something
 
its not a matter of "does he deserves this?"
 
Jeff Bezos made his billions by exploiting factory workers that he doesn't even pay a livable wage and y'all wanna say Bezos earned it?
 
@ballBreaker No all i am saying hating billionaire is stupid
 
@AdamMc331 cause it's my money and I earned it, and I probably wouldn't. I'd donate. But that's my choice, not the governments.
 
7:41 PM
How do you plan to earn that, out of curiosity?
 
@AdamMc331 did he follow the law?
 
probably not
he probably side skirted it like most billionaires with offshore accounts do
 
i am not saying you shouldn't tax them more, but hating is stupid and kinda reeks of jealousy somewhere in there
 
See because I'm a high end software engineer who works very very hard at my job and I'm still 6.6 thousand years behind a single billion dollars, and I'd like you to tell me what else I can do to make up that extra input.
I'm just trying to understand where you think that money comes from.
 
@ColdFusion yeah for sure, I don't hate billionaires at all, but I don't think they're great people either
 
7:43 PM
start your business something?
 
^
 
@ballBreaker never said they are, they are people afterall
 
no of course
 
Okay, so I've started a business. Why should I have 6.6 thousand more years worth of salary than my employees?
 
we aren't arguing with eachother CF I think we're on the same side
just getting lost in someone else's argument haha
 
7:43 PM
haha yeah
 
@AdamMc331 because you are the ceo and they are the workers
one of you many of them
 
Oh, but I thought I worked for it?
 
they are replaceable you arent
 
sure they are, look at the revolving door of CEOs in most public companies
 
Suddenly, there's another party here who's responsible for making all that money. Why aren't they getting a fair share?
 
7:44 PM
look if you want to earn more than what a avg job pays you need to start something of your own , most people dont even take that risk
 
@AdamMc331 I never said you worked hard for it
 
more the risk , more the reward i guess
 
what do ceos do really?
 
just mess around i guess
 
@JBis most VCs would disagree tbh, everyone is replaceable
 
7:44 PM
@JBis You literally said "it's my money and I earned it" with respect to having a billion dollars
 
or mess up like SE
 
lunches
 
@DaveS and the turnover rate of factory workers is much higher
 
so I'm just trying to understand who's working for this massive amount of money...
 
@AdamMc331 earned doesn't mean hardwork
 
7:45 PM
@petey you think having lunch in a fancy restaurant is easy business?
 
So you can earn money, without working hard, but only if you're a CEO and not a poor person. Got it.
 
@AdamMc331 you are (well the hypothetical ceo)
@AdamMc331 Great!
 
but I'm not working for it! :SCREAM:
 
Or you play sports
 
7:46 PM
@Mehdi hah!
 
that work works too
No pun intended
 
even top tier athletes aren't billionaires!
 
Nope, many can't even pronounce billionaire
 
@petey damn there is a local joke somewhat related to this , but cant say without context xD
 
@JBis This is a bad take
 
7:47 PM
@AdamMc331 it's a point
 
@AdamMc331 Because you started something and he chose to work under you
 
they are making a shit ton more than and they probably aren't as smart as you
 
he can start something of his own if he wishes
 
I don't know that.
What makes an athlete less smarter than me?
They can make split second decisions in a fast pace game for hours at a time, that's a lot of mental energy.
 
come on
 
7:48 PM
> Saez and Zucman found that in 2018, the total tax rate for the 400 wealthiest families in America was 23 percent, while the tax rate for bottom half of American families was over a percentage point higher, at 24.2 percent. It marks the first time in history the richest 400 households have shouldered less of a tax burden than the working class.
 
@JBis you meant "educated" in the regular educational system. it's silly to compare intelligence, as opposed to education
 
I'm being dead serious. You're making dangerous assumptions because you don't understand reality, and how the circumstances of someone's upbringing are associated with intelligence.

There are a lot of smart people out there who will never get the chance to make a billion dollars through no fault of their own.
 
^
 
^
 
@Mehdi yes, fair point
@AdamMc331 no I mispoke
 
7:50 PM
Good thing I'm not one of those smart people. I'd be so upset.
 
You said it yourself - you'd bet half this room is smarter than trump. If athletes are stupid, shouldn't we be able to say presidents are smart?

But if you can recognize that a president isn't always smart, then you can recognize that poor people aren't always stupid.
 
education vs intelligence
 
@AdamMc331 do you have a way to correct that?
 
Hold on, let me correct myself
 
To stop defending billionaires and guillotine the rich but I think we can start with the first part.
 
7:51 PM
most athletes are not as educated
 
hmm not sure who is defending them
 
JBis lol
 
ah ok lol
 
@AdamMc331 I'm defending people's right to accumulate wealth, you me or bloomberg
 
@ColdFusion we should restore the progressive tax rates that worked in the 50s 60s and 70s, and use the funds to install an intelligent minimum wage, provider healthcare and education to every citizen
 
7:52 PM
People and business have that right
 
he probably will understand once he ages more :Thinking:
 
That right sounds good, but I have an ethical cap on what is a justifiable accumulation of that wealth and that's where we disagree.
 
@JBis rich people have the right to accumulate wealth but not poor people, got it
 
@DaveS but people from other side says economy was tanking in the 50-70s until regan came
i do not know enough about US economy during those times to have a comparison
 
7:53 PM
id really appreciate if you guys don't minimize my opinion simply because of my age. For starters it's not fair and I'm not the only one making these arguments. There are plenty of people your age and older who make these same arguments.
 
also wait aren't the tax progressive already?
 
it's not about your age
it's a bad argument
 
@DaveS people are people. Once they accumulate wealth they go from poor to rich.
 
with all the tax cuts and tax breaks the 400 wealthiest families only paid 23% in 2018 CF
while the bottom half of americans paid 24.5%
 
7:54 PM
I have nothing against billionaires, given they pay their taxes as dictated by the law and given that they do not exploit and bully the poor by giving them inhuman and degrading working conditions
 
I think the age comes in to play because you are younger and still have aspirations, while those of us who have been working for years have been faced with the reality that a billion dollars is an unattainable amount of wealth for 99.99999% of people
 
ColdFusionColdFusion
14:52
he probably will understand once he ages more :
 
@JBis no , we aren't , i am just saying with age you will get to know the real world a lot more and that experience kicks in and you start to understand stuff you didn't before
 
I think you will too JBis
you're arguments are fundamental in nature and not dissimilar to how I thought at your age
 
We're not saying your argument is invalid because of your age, we're saying it will almost certainly change in a few years.
 
7:54 PM
@DaveS that's an issue
 
but a lot of this you don't really understand until you live it yourself
 
probably related to trumps tax cuts
 
not sure i hear conflicting opinion about tax cuts
 
@AdamMc331 how can you be so sure when most Americans don't
Should rich people pay more in taxes? yeah
should businesses pay more in taxes? Probably
not disagreeing with that
@AdamMc331 I understand that. But if you are that 0.01% that good for you.
 
7:58 PM
@DaveS what about the other candidates tho? are they going to tax higher like bernie?
 
Also @AdamMc331, hopefully our political disagreements won't impact this, but iirc you work in NYC. Does your company have an internship program by any chance? I'm looking for a summer one.
 
lmao
 
@ColdFusion a lot of them but I like Bernie for his character and congress has to pass the tax plan
 
@ColdFusion even Bloomberg said they will
 
bloomberg is gonna tax himself? that is rich'
 
7:59 PM
I don't think Adam is spiteful so I doubt it would impact that reality. It's a funny statement though
 
not sure on bloomberg's tax plan
 

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