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05:32
@Derick Thanks; you were right; I hadn't installed some packages, and of course, I couldn't because I didn't have some other libraries :D Finally almost solved it.
 
3 hours later…
08:57
@IGP several of the people who voted no, including me, gave their reasons on the mailing list thread: externals.io/message/117336
essentially: approve of the errors in principle, but think the list of exactly what errors are introduced when should be planned more carefully
I plan to start a thread, and possibly RFC, about the inconsistency of $undef .= 'foo'; (error in 9.0) vs $undef []= 'foo'; (silent forever!?)
09:38
The problem you're facing is that $undef[] = 'foo' is the equivalent of $a['undef'][] = 'foo' which is extremely widely used.
10:00
only in the same way that $undef .= 'foo' is the equivalent of $a['undef'] .= 'foo' surely?
maybe other people conceptualise it differently, but to me []= and .= feel like basically the same operator on different data types
I know []= isn't technically one operator, because you can do special things like $ref =& $foo[]; but in most uses, it's an operator form of array_push
The difference is autovivification, if you skip over that bit then you're right it's practically the same and should be treated the same.
and personally, I'd be fine keeping autoviv to arrays rather than variables, but that's an argument that needs to be made as it'll be a fairly big change
10:16
I don't really see the difference; maybe there is in Perl, where that fancy word gets used a lot, but in PHP, any unset variable can be used as null, and null can be used as any type
you can have all the same bugs failing to initialise arrays and then pushing to them as you can have failing to initialise strings and then concatenating to them
@MarkR isn't that exactly the change you have made, with the RFC that just passed: variables will no longer be auto-vivified to string by the .= operator, because it will be an error
Autovivification specifically refers to creating arrays / hashtables, not arbitrary types
I don't see how that term is relevant to PHP, then, because there's no difference in behaviour
It's from perl, and PHP cloned it from perl.
yes, but PHP isn't Perl now
That feature however, is still PHP
10:22
in what way, other than not currently having a Warning?
what is different about null -> array coercion vs null -> string coercion in PHP?
I think the underlying difference is that autovivication works on the write behaviour of the underlying storage, whereas null to string coercion depends on the behaviour of null.
you mean because $foo[] = $bar can't be spelled out as a separate read plus assignment the same way $foo .= $bar can?
$foo['bar'] ??= 'x'; can, though; would that still count as autovivification, or as behaviour of null?
That's how it seems to look internally, the transmuting to array takes place in the assign dimension opcode handler
I'm thinking in terms of behaviour, rather than implementation, though
like, if you were writing a language spec, would there be a necessary distinction?
The example you provided (assuming $foo was already an array) is null behaviour i'd say.
10:35
implementation-wise, you could have an optimised implementation of .= using smart strings, but it's behaviour is consistent with taking the current value, defaulted to null, and coercing to string
the behaviour of $foo[] = 'bar'; feels consistent with that to me, too
I'd recommend you write it up and take it to the mailing list. I'm not confident in the reception it'll receive though.
yeah, maybe someone will find a way of explaining the reasoning that gets through to me, because right now I'm not getting it; but thanks for trying :)
The answer may just be "because that's the way it is"
that's not a reason not to change things, though
allowing use of undefined variables is the way it is, but we just changed that
That was a consequence of PHP's very, very old "just try and keep running no-matter what" behaviour.
10:49
right, and as far as I can see, so it is with arrays
but I'll write something up later and see what other people have to say on it
If you just try and hand-wave away the explicit special case for autoviv you're probably not going to get any satisfaction.
that's the problem, I don't think I'm the one hand-waving it
I'm drawing attention to it and saying "look at this weird thing, why is it there?"
 
1 hour later…
12:01
Good Morning!
o/
12:15
\o
Moving day~
\o/
Do the British thing, kettle is the last thing to be packed, first thing to be unpacked.
=D
Just let it cool first before packing.
IGP
IGP
Morning
12:50
@Tiffany \o/ happy moving day
said no one ever until they can chill in the new place :-P yes, you can tell I hate moving
where's the new place @Tiffany? :-)
@Tiffany did you figure out how to move the cats?
13:03
@SaifEddinGmati yeah, putting them in a kennel. Will need to break every six hours ish to let them walk and use bathroom. Need to have water readily available. Also, using vet-prescribed antianxiety for them.
@Ekin I've hired people to pack and load the moving truck 😂
13:16
:D best moving decision ever
o/ ohai
@Tiffany awesome!
13:49
@Tiffany Eeek!
14:38
is there any way to get declared use statements in a php file by reflection or better-reflection?
@Carpenter i don't think so, you can use php-parser and parse the file instead.
14:49
@SaifEddinGmati will look into it. thx
8.2 is shaping up to be a kind of boring release so far. I suspect a combination of no Nikita and people tired after the whirlwind of 7.4 and 8.0.
as I understand it, use statements happen entirely at compile-time; so anything run-tme would just see them as fully qualified names
@IMSoP That is my understanding as well.
correct(ish) - i think the name space might be stored.
15:00
@Crell PHPF is just about to get going
The use doesn't even need to be anything valid.
@Derick I look forward to it.
FWIW, I still think it'll be a boring release, but that's not necessarily a bad idea
(To be fair, a boring release now and then is not a bad thing. But there's still plenty of functionality I'd love to see.)
jinx!
What would you love to see?
15:02
That's in flight, or in general?
yes
peakd.com/hive-168588/@crell/aoc2021-review - Everything on the punch list here. :-) Plus accessor methods.
Anything not Functional related?
ADTs and pattern matching, although those are kinda functional related.
Accessor methods aren't a functional thing specifically.
I'd be OK if sealed classes pass, but that looks unlikely. Operator overloading isn't functional per se, but I do wish that had passed.
DNF types aren't hugely important to me, but I think they'd be good for completeness.
Type aliases.
type aliases is a tricky one though, as ... where do you define them, and how would they interact with autoloading? They're almost like "classes" on their own perhaps...
15:09
Yeah, those have the largest design challenge still. Most of the rest of the things I want to see have self-evident design, it's just a matter of committing the resources to do it and agreeing on it.
Is this idle curiosity or are you asking for a PHPF friend? :-)
The problem with types is autoloading =\ whole application compile ftw
Aye. Such is life in a scripting language.
@Crell Again, yes.
:-)
For me personally, functional stuff and data modeling improvements (which would include operator overloading and accessor metehods, for instance) are the big wins. I think those have the most bang for the buck.
But operator overloading just failed.
15:16
Which makes me very sad.
I would at least want to see comparison overloading. That's the most useful part of that.
And also already easily possible for internal classes
Oh yes, and a revised stream API that works through concatenation and can switch cleanly from bytestreams to generators. :-)
Yes, but the number of people who write internal classes is about 4 orders of magnitude smaller than those who write userspace code.
Rewriting streams would be useful, but rewriting streams is also going to be a PITA.
As long as we're talking shopping lists.
No doubt. Hence why I think figuring out the bare minimum to expose to user-space to make the rest of it possible in user space would be ideal. Which probably means seemingly unrelated features that dovetail together to become a stream API. Like, function concatenation doesn't sound like a stream feature, but if stream processing happens through functions and generators, then being able to concat generators together is a stream API. And that could be a much easier lift.
now you lost me
15:23
So, totally spitballing here, not real syntax:

$filename |> openfile('r') |> gunzip() |> readline(PHP_EOL) ||> parse_csv() ||> loadDataObject() ||> save();
Assume |> is the pipe as discussed in the past in some form, and ||> is the same thing for generators. (waves hand a bit). Now you take a file name string, open it and get back a stream object, which gets passed to gunzip() to decompress it, which gets passed to readline() which reads off a single line at a time generator-style, each line gets parsed as a csv, then that array is turned into a data object, then the object is saved.
That's a stream processing API, right there. With hints of functional-reactive style. Also, incredibly composable and flexible and extensible from user-space in ways the current API isn't even slightly.
What are the pieces of that? We need functions that take a stream and return a stream, so we need a stream object. We need function concat/pipes. We need some kind of generator pipe (which I suppose is yet another syntax for map?)
I'm likely missing a few bits here and glossing over some stuff. But the point is that if we break it down, there's only one really stream-ish bit there: an object that represents a bytestream. Everything else is generally-useful functionality (pipes, composition, generators, etc.) Those are a lot easier to conceptualize and build. They combine to give us a stream API, but also give us a lot of additional benefits along the way because all but one of those components is useful in any code.
Like how Sara's post to the list was effectively "if we had a monad operator string streams become easier." Which is true, but also anything else that could use a bind operator becomes easier. That it's useful when operating on a Bytestream object in particular is almost incidental.
Follow?
Yeah, but that looks terrible to me :-þ
Why?
so readline is called multiple times, but parse_csv is called once? and why is loadDataObject also called once? this doesn't make any sense to me honestly.
oh |> vs ||>, okay, a bit more sense, but still confusing.
15:39
As I said, totally spitballing the syntax and making ||> up on the spot. :-)
But the general idea being that if you have a common API for chaining generators together (whatever it is), and you can represent a stream as a generator-capable object, then boom, you have a chainable, composable stream API.
Doing something one-off for streams specifically would be a bad way to go about it. Figuring out what streams would need and generalizing that to a common language feature makes it both more powerful and easier to implement.
still, i don't think that should be a thing, |> + functions that clearly take an iterable and return a generator would accomplish the same result.
Possibly. I haven't thought through how |> or function concat would interact with generators. But the point is, if we solve that problem, we get a stream API for free.
|> should interact with generators just like any other object, it's a value that gets passed.
You're off on a tangent. :-)
Lets say i have bunch of images with different aspect ratio/resultion
how do i get the position of the black area on those images ?
I want to put some text in black bar randomly and it should net exceed in white area
15:45
$filename |> openfile('r') |> gunzip() |> readline(PHP_EOL) |> amap(parse_csv(...)) |> amap(loadDataObject(...)) ||> amap(save(...)); - I guess it would look like that. Which isn't bad, but we'd probably want some better concat then so that we can merge the callbacks and map them once, which is better for performance.
@Crell yep, that looks better, tho, i'm still against having |> without $$ :p
$$ wouldn't actually work in this case, I think. :-) At least not well.
But do you see my root point on streams, at least?
Yes, but wouldn't be the same as:

$x = $filename |> openfile($$, 'r') |> gunzip($$) |> readline($$, PHP_EOL) |> amap($$, parse_csv(...)) |> amap($$, loadDataObject(...)) ||> amap($$, save(...));
Stay on streams, please!
$x in that case is a generator/stream, so how is it different?
15:51
I mean I am not in the mood to get off on the tangent of |> being like hack or like every other language in the world that uses |> right now. I'm talking about a stream API that exists implicitly as a result of better function composition and generator tools.
cmb
cmb
16:05
@Mwthreex if you're using GD, you either have to find that area manually (basically loop over all pixels from the outside and stop as soon as there is a non-black pixel); you also could use imageautocrop with IMG_CROP_BLACK, and then readd the borders. Imagick may have sth. more suitable built in.
16:16
@cmb So basically a tag and a new build for 7.4.next this Thursday? (or in two weeks, I lost track)
cmb
cmb
@Derick this week is QA; I don't think we need a new tag for that, so would be in two weeks
sure, I wasn't going to tag a QA one. Your plan looks ok to me (in two weeks time). Do remind me though if I don't see it?
cmb
cmb
Yes, sure, I can remind you then.
@Crell How many languages actually have pipes?
Not saying that's an important metric, just curious.
@IluTov Haskell, F#, OCaml, Ruby, and Elixir that I know of. It's been proposed for Javascript, but apparently keeps getting blocked by people wanting PFA first, and PFA not passing. (Deja vu.)
Some languages also have a separate function concat operator.
And of course bash, with a different syntax.
16:44
PowerShell might be a more relevant example than bash; I don't know the details, but its pipes are object-based, rather than text-processing like classic *nix shells
17:14
@Crell If we had basic scalar methods for the most common array/string things, would you still want pipes? I think they cover like 90% of cases, which I think are also the most intuitive ones. I don't find $filename |> openfile($$, 'r') |> gunzip($$) |> readline($$, PHP_EOL) |> ... very readable.
(Because that's something I'd like to work on)
Hello guys!
I've installed imagick in my docker container and php 8.1
Everything looks fine with PHP intervention, but when I want to load an image in this path:

"/usr/share/nginx/html/storage/app/uploads/2000/03/19/default_3/default_3.jpg"

which when I run file_exists returns true, it returns an error like:

Unable to read image from path (/usr/share/nginx/html/storage/app/uploads/2000/03/19/default_3/default_3.jpg).

Why?
Maybe it's the spacing, but especially without $$ my brain looks at $string |> openfile('r') and completely dissociates what's on the left with the function call. I'm sure that's mostly unfamiliarity but -> is already very ingrained in peoples heads.
Maybe it's also just that I don't think of file paths opening a file, but opening files requiring a file path.
@X4748-IR Right permissions?
@IluTov I find it terrible in both cases.
@Derick This file is in a volume; if the container didn't have the permission, I must not have been able to read it by some other commands like file_get_contents
You didn't mention you could read it with file_get_contents ;-)
17:23
@Derick Yes; sorry; I forgot; I really have no idea what's going wrong ):
Maybe the image file is corrupted?
cmb
cmb
or the format is not supported?
@Derick What about scalar methods? $array->filter() and so forth.
It makes $array look like an object. I'm really not sure about that... but it's certainly better.
cmb
cmb
@IluTov IMO, the only problem with this would be to select to "methods". Everybody likely has their favorites, and many will spend lots of time bikeshedding.
17:32
Yes, I would still want pipes because they have uses beyond the basic string/array stuff. That's admittedly a lot of them, but by no means all.

Also, it is more performant to do amap($func1 . $func2) than it is to do amap($func1) . amap($func2), despite them being equivalent. Easy function concat and pipes makes that refactor trivial. Methods on arrays would not.
Having been working with them, frankly I suspect at least 80% of the distaste for pipes is simple lack of familiarity and experience. Which I get; that was my response when Sara first proposed them years ago. But at this point, "take a thing, do a thing to it, do a thing to that, do a thing to that" is just the natural way I think, and that's what pipes/concat are.
And it doesn't create confusion about whether something is an object or a scalar, which then "sometimes matters, sometimes not"
@cmb I can imagine. My idea is to start with literally just 1-2 functions, lay the groundwork, and allow future RFCs that focus on individual or groups of related methods.
Might still not work due to bike-shedding, but we'll see.
I solved it; Imagick software, itself, wasn't installed for some reason!!
I have this command in my Dockerfile

apk add imagemagick

but hadn't ran, for a reason which I don't know I:
@Crell What is amap?
array_map() equivalent for pipes. Returns a callable that takes the array to map as its only argument.

Slightly irrelevant in this case; my point being that $arr->map($f1)->map($f2)->map($f3) is inefficient. It's better to concat the functions together first, and then map them all at once.
@IluTov Doooo it. Except rather than 1 or 2... like... I dunno, 30 obvious ones
17:45
@MarkR I don't know if there are 5 obvious ones ^^
@Crell Although you could still do $arr->map($f1 . $f2 . $f3) without pipes :P
@MarkR When it comes to strings, there's the whole question about unicode (which other people know much more about). For arrays, the question is mostly if we consider lists or dictionaries the default, or if we make every method name very explicit.
@IluTov Well if we're talking scalars in general, the string ones, substr, pos, tolower, toupper, compare, replace, repeat, trim, ltrim, rtrim, length (property?), split
The only really obvious one for me is $array->count() :D
That still requires a function concat operator. :-) And if we've done that, then doing pipes as well seems obvious. (The incremental work of one over the other is, I suspect, very small, so may as well do both.)
@IluTov Because internal functions don't allow trailing args, we have to make every method explicit. I've been bitten by this many times working on Crell/fp.
@Crell Well of course, I was just saying the performance argument only works for the function concat but not pipes.
@IluTov foreach / map / filter would be the 3 most useful ones by far. Then there's implode/join, push / shift / unshift / keys / values / sort
17:50
@MarkR Caveat with scalar methods is that by-ref of the "$this" value won't work. So no push, shift, sort, etc.
(I guess that's a plus for pipes ^^)
Same for push, shift, etc.
@IluTov sort() could be done if it returns a new value. (For both methods and pipes.)
Sort can be solved by returning a copy (maybe), the $this bit I remember discussing with Nikita, and fixing it would be a huge faff that would need to have a second opcode route to create a write ref context depending on the resolved function, to avoid having to do every operation in write-like context
@MarkR So, does map retain keys? Does it create a packed array?
@Crell Sure, but that will mean an entire copy for no good reason.
@IluTov Doesn't CoW take care of that? The values themselves should just have the refcount incremented, no?
@Crell Depends, only if the array isn't referenced from any other place.
But yes @MarkR I guess there are a few ones that aren't too controversial. I'll make a list when I start working on this :)
17:54
@IluTov Good question. For consistency with array_map i'd say probably maintaining keys, to pack it'd be ['a' => 1, 'b' => 2]->map(fn($x) => $x * 2)->values()
@IluTov I think that has to be separate functions. That's what I ended up with for Crell/fp. cf: github.com/Crell/fp/blob/master/src/array.php (first couple of functions)
@MarkR But then do we do the same for filter? That's often a major wtf (e.g. return $this->json($array->filter(...))` suddenly returns an object instead of an array.
a JSON object I mean
@Crell That's what I meant with "For arrays, the question is mostly if we consider lists or dictionaries the default, or if we make every method name very explicit."
Every method explicit.
@IluTov I'd think so, personally I'd like to see an inbuilt vector structure so the key problem goes away entirely
I agree with Mark that we should by default retain the keys, BUT, if you want to use the key in the callback (sometimes you do), that needs to be a separate function.
Really, I've run into most of these problems so far and my solutions are in the library I linked. :-)
The alternative is to use a withKey argument that folds the two together, but then you're really just moving the conditional into the function.
17:59
Well, again, if we say explicit names, it would be mapArray and mapDictValues (or maybe a better name), one would retain discard keys one would not.
or maybe mapList
array for PHP is a very ambiguous term
That is the root problem of many issues, yes.
Crell's problems do deserve a solution, either to make additional args get discarded, which is the JS way and makes a lot of sense, but it feels a bit too loose for my preference.... the only alternative would be something to explicitly swallow anything else
[1, 2, 3]->forEach(fn($x, ...) => $x * 2); which im not sure I like any more, even if it's technically accurate. It seems unnecessary.
I wouldn't have a method called forEach() at all. It's either a map or a filter or a reduce. Don't mess around with an amorphous "all of them and none".
foreach is rather useful.
@MarkR When? I never use it in JS.
18:03
99% of my foreach()s are either a map or a filter, and knowing which is which is helpful. It also allows for engine optimization potentially (like parallelizing operations).
Which, hey, if you want to swap out a synchronous map() for an async map built on filters, that's trivial with pipes. Not so much with scalar methods.
@IluTov One example is when you're iterating over a list calling a method on each item e.g. listeners.forEach(v => v.someMethod()); You might also be copying an array into a different datastructure e.g. values.forEach(v => someMap.set(v.id, v));
@Crell By trivial you mean you have to implement it yourself? :P Yes, that's another things, Swift and Rust have lazy interator APIs (operations are chained, and only run as you advance through the iterator) but honestly then we'd be better off just introducing better iterator classes.
@MarkR Then you want one of these: github.com/Crell/fp/blob/master/src/object.php
So should I mention that the it*() functions in the link above with pipes give you a nice lazy iterator chain?
I sure as hell don't want to be within a million miles of anything that has to use a string as a function name in modern PHP :-)
@MarkR IMO the root probably comes down to style guides, requiring braces for single statements after a foreach...
18:09
@MarkR Then we need built-in lenses in PHP. :-)
Can't really chain the foreach though, but yes that would be the way in the absence of a .forEach
@MarkR Doesn't .forEach return void? Then it's always the end of a chain anyway.
@IluTov Yes that's right
So, (expr)->forEach(fn ($x) => $x->doFoo()) can always be rewritten as foreach (expr as $x) $x->doFoo();. I guess the former works slightly better if expr spans over multiple lines.
I was thinking along the lines of [1, 2, 3]->map(fn($a) => $a * 2)->forEach(fn($x) => printf("Value %d\n", $a)); (obviously limited example)
18:12
Which if it does, you probably should use a temp variable to begin with. :-)
IMO, if you're doing something sufficiently procedural that you need foreach() you should just write it procedurally.
isn't that almost everything to do with arrays though? :-)
I would like PHP allow this syntax first: new A()->method()
No, map and filter and reduce are very much functional operations.
user17161735
Is there another way to express this handler?

RequestController::class.'::execute'
first(), last(), etc. are, too.
@Arcanis-TheOmnipotent That's a static method? As of 8.1, you can do RequestController::execute(...)
18:15
@Mwthreex I looked into that a while ago, it wasn't as easy as expected. There are some ambiguities.
(But don't ask me what, I don't remember :P)
user17161735
@Crell php 7.4 I don't want to execute it, I just want to pass the expression and have it run from another point in the code
@Mwthreex Lol, it was already you asking :D chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11?m=53966169#53966169
user17161735
I think more context is needed....
Yeah :p
That syntax doesn't execute it. It technically creates a wrapping callable around the static method that you can invoke later.
On 7.4, the least-bad option is [RequestController::class, 'execute'] and pass that around as as a pseudo-callable, which works most of the time...
user17161735
18:31
ok look I'm working on this class:
https://github.com/arcanisgk/swp/blob/master/src/Core/Router.php


this line of code to be more exact:
https://github.com/arcanisgk/swp/blob/73e81c017d111f8a8cb992c87fd8d36eab307a19/src/Core/Router.php#L28

Everything that gets compiled ends up in this method:
https://github.com/arcanisgk/swp/blob/73e81c017d111f8a8cb992c87fd8d36eab307a19/src/Core/Router.php#L97

and ends up calling this other class and method:
https://github.com/arcanisgk/swp/blob/master/src/Core/RequestController.php
enjoy your nightmares:
<?php
class Foobar {
    public function zazify()
    {
        print "zazified!";
    }
}
function leActivate(array $leCallable) {
    (new $leCallable[0])->{$leCallable[1]}();
}
leActivate([Foobar::class, 'zazify']);
you can even curry args along to create the worse DIC you've ever thought of
user17161735
this is pretty magical: I was thinking of something more discoverable by the IDE, I'm using phpstorm.
PHP needs a thus keyword. I don't know what that would do, but we should figure that out.
@FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier Shouldn't it be l'Activate ? ;-)
hehe, yes it should :P
@Crell maybe could replace the opening bracket after an if
if ($ImTheWorse) thus print "never let me touch a php" }
18:46
Hmmm...
19:20
thus could be for statements guarded by an assertion: $foo instanceof Exception thus throw $foo;
$divisor != 0 thus $value /= $divisor;
I remember a friend and I tried to come up with a use for a because keyword once; I can't remember any of our ideas now, though
So $a thus $b would be equivalent to if ($a) { $b; } ?
19:44
no, to assert($a); $b;
Ah.
20:16
"thus" sounds like we'll also need to add "forthwith" and "indubitably" as an assertion something is correct
20:29
forthwith instead of namespace
henceforth instead of use
I'm sure there's a Perl module that defines keywords like perchance, but I can't find it now
21:02
@IluTov Yes I did, but will probably only update when I actually merge the PR
@Dharman Let's gooooooooooooo, and make this even more like functional prgramming languages :D
@Derick I've been working on a new autoloading mechanism for classes and functions, then one could add one for types so that one stops abusing classes, which IMHO is the main blocker atm for adding type aliases
@Girgias have you got a solution / approach in mind for the fallback-to-global problem? pretty sure that's what scuppered the last attempt
namely, should namespace Foo { strlen($bar); strlen($bar); } run the autoloader to find Foo\strlen once, twice, or not at all?
Currently it's not at all, but making it run twice is a one line code change
cmb
cmb
@Sara, @ramsey, @PatrickAllaert, just a reminder that 8.0.18RC1 and 8.1.5RC1 should be tagged today. :)
21:26
Can we get my mysqli fix in before tagging?
Wait a sec, you're blue, when did that happen o_O (I don't even know what it means, other than you may be suffering an oxygen deficiency)
there was an announcement a few days ago :)
grats @Dharman!
Thanks
Yesterday to be exact
21:43
Also should this get in? github.com/php/php-src/pull/7651/files
I think that's a correct fix, but IDK DBs
... so, I understand that while the undefined var rfc passed, we still won't be able to catch undefined index notices right?
I'm counting hard on moore's law to get me to my answer here
22:04
@cmb fuuuuuuuuuuuuuudge, yes. That's me. It's been a %^#$^ kind of day.
Thank you
 
1 hour later…
23:06
@bwoebi I tried fixing the tests, but the constant problem wasn’t obvious. Different versions of gcc, etc, configs, etc.
23:38
@ircmaxell but they are green for you now too, right?

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