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00:00
I believe what they're trying to say is that if all your operations occur on the client side there's no server that can be compromised. This is how password vaults work.
It's not specific to PHP
Yes. this answer is misleading. Feeling like PHP is missing some, not client-side and server-side. I don't have enough points in bitcoin SO, if anyone got please add a comment and make it clear.
3rd connection though!
meh. I don';t use linked in, but I have a connection to enrico S......omething at elastic search from trying to sort out some drama previously. It probably distorts things a bit.
g'night
00:13
nn.
hmm - what did happen to github.com/elastic/apm-agent-php and their pecl release...
Speaking of profiling, what's the currently recommend tools re: production performance profiling?
> PHP has had many breaking changes over the years. PHP 8.1 introduced a much
more annoying deprecation: Deprecate passing null to non-nullable arguments
of internal functions.
@MarkR I've heard good things about tideways.com assuming that you are wanting to investigate your slow down you think you're having in the json encoding, it's probably the best for that type of targetted profiling.
ppl who dislike php are the same ones that are too lazy to make things the right way..
btw, it might be worth just finding out what the max memory bandwidth is in your server, and just figuring out what % of it you're using. you've mentioned before that you are serving quite a few requests per second, and it's possible you're just running into a bandwidth bottleneck.
00:33
@Danack It could be, so far I've had little success recreating the issue locally. I've been spamming the hot path with a mini profiler that uses short closures to wrap the call. I can reliably make it jam up within the json_encode on the server but that's strictly clock time, not cycles
 
2 hours later…
02:34
@trowski perfect timing...
02:46
or not...
03:09
@Danack Hmm? Did it look like I was here before?
yes. your icon on the "people who are here list" was at the front.
Was out of the house most of the day, but my computer occasionally wakes up to do synchronization things. R11 was the active window in my browser, so probably that.
@Trowski can you check twitter. perfect time to say something.....or not.
@Danack The lower tiers were meant to be aimed at someone using amphp for a personal project that they found value in, e.g., home automation controller. I'm not sure where the cutoff should be for an individual, but I was trying to encourage business to sponsor at a higher tier.
One of the things that depresses me, is that for many open source projects, if each company paid their fair share, the cost to each of them would be trivial.
Something that needs to be suggested to github is for them to allow companies to pay small amounts per month, and have it split between their dependencies.
It takes too much effort to sponsor twenty projects $5 each.......but if a company could sponsor $100 a month....that takes moments.
03:29
Private packagist just dropped 18k on the foundation \o/
How would the money be divided? Dividing it evenly doesn't necessarily correlate well with the effort to maintain some open source projects or how much an app depends on a project.
@Trowski I seriously need to write more words down......or go to bed.....but what would be the desired outcome from attempting to dividing it in a way that is more 'fair' than evenly?
If the answer is anything close to "to prevent people from getting more money than they deserve", then I'm going to gesture wildly in the direction of Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.
Two people who built enormously successful products that redefined entire industries on a global level? :P
@Danack Some packages are mission critical, the foundation on which an app is built. Some are small tools that require little maintenance and/or updates. Giving the same funding to both doesn't quite feel right.
No idea how that funding could be split in an automated way that couldn't be deemed to be unfair in some way.
 
3 hours later…
06:19
@NikiC I can't find them :s and don't seem to have set any recovery details ... we look locked out, unless by any chance I've emailed you a password around that time for anything else (I'll have used the same one) ... possibly I emailed it from the account I'm locked out of ?
Morning Joe
06:32
If I may ask, when we were wondering why you cut off your github sponsors and you said it was a bit conflicty, is that because your new full time position is the foundation?
Ahh yes, silly me I remember that now.
Thanks
07:16
shopware AG dropping 10G (may be an idea to resurrect jeeves for big $ donations!)
07:47
@NikiC can't find them anywhere, searched old disks and booted old OS (chrome doesn't remember in old OS either) ...
 
1 hour later…
08:54
It's 5 mins to close the vote on deprecating dynamic properties.
"admin" asking a question posting a link to a screenshot instead of a simple text paste... make me anxious about his "admin" role....
btw... I even remember one sending me an photo from a camera of his screen....
@RemiCollet admin of what?
you can get rabbit hutches with like 9 separate cages, hopefully is the administrator for one of those ?
@NikiC "admin" of some servers
woooooo bye bye dynamic properties (eventually) :D
09:21
it will feel like the blink of public $leftEye and public $rightEye
(the camera used to take a screenshot is real, and from a network and system administrator of a large company....)
(the screenshot vs text paste is much more common... sadly ex stackoverflow.com/questions/70117568/…)
/me should stop trying to help such users...
I dunno about that ... the average user surely puts less effort into reporting the bug than someone who uploaded 3 screenshots to the interweb ... they're putting in the effort for sure, just ... doing it wrong
Wes
Wes
09:53
@PeeHaa do you know any midi editor that sounds like real instruments? possibly something on the cheap side
morning all
10:06
morning o/
Man I love Reddit. 8/9 root comments are "wHY arE YoU STiLl USING tHIs SHitTy langUAgE. JUst lET iT DIE." reddit.com/r/programming/comments/r26osn/php_81_was_released
@ln-s \o
the php hate
got old for me
almost banned a guy posting a click bait article "IS PHP DEAD" :O :O
imo, php hate comes from people who can't bother to do things in the right way by themselves and need the language to guide them..
10:33
yay, I finally figured out how to post to internals again :)
cue: obnoxious bullying and playground insults
 
2 hours later…
12:06
@JoeWatkins Are there any discussions going on with the temp board members of the foundation, and did I miss an email?
join administration room, or poke someone for an invite - no idea how discord works
so I did miss an email. I'm on discord... but not sure how to join anything there :-)
I don't remember how I got there
looks like the invite expired, I pinged roman
I sent one, don't know if it will work
12:14
email?
you at terrible language dot net
yes, got it
hmm, i can see it, but not anyh content, as I get "messages failed to load"
that's odd
but my presence should not be mistaken for understanding, I must emphasise that :D
this is literally the first time I've used discord, you might need a link from roman, not sure
13:12
@Derick this means the room you're looking at is set up to where chat history won't load
You're not allowed to view previous messages
You should be able to see any future messages though, depending on how the permissions are set
You might need a specific role to be able to view chat history, which will have to be added by someone with that access
@RemiCollet "In your 1st step, you download the repository home page, - well, that deserves some sort of prize. Have I linked you this before basereality.blogspot.com/2013/03/… ?
13:28
@Tiffany I can't even see the channel in my list :-)
@Derick sounds like they have it all locked down to the everyone role, which is not uncommon. You may need to contact Roman or someone else (speculating) to receive access.
............
@Danack Pong. but I guess I am too late? :)
@Wes Torrents are cheap
~11h ping response, that's a long running blocking process. props on not timing out (:
also o/
o/
@Wes NI Kontakt has a loooot of downloadable instruments if you want to go the torrent route
I don't think I have ever seen anything better
@Tiffany Joe has on my behalf :-)
13:39
@PeeHaa Omnisphere is cool for sound design
Yeah, but when it comes to actual instruments nothing beats a sampler
Well actual instruments does :P
@Derick right, but that's just an invite to the server. Viewing messages and message history can be restricted by someone with permissions access
I do love the omnisphere though
(I've adminned a couple discord servers and became very familiar with how to set up channels to lock stuff down)
@PeeHaa Also Kontakt
13:42
The library on that thing is insane
Forgot that it was from NI
fractal@DESKTOP:/mnt/j/projects/php-src$ git status
Refresh index:  77% (15621/20249)
when your codebase gets the most out of git
13:56
ohai and happy fryday 11ers
@Danack nice blog post :)
if slightly depressing.
it seems to prove that my repo documentation is good :) (95% of my answer being, read the FAQ, or follow the Wizard)
@Danack That an awesome point of view!
14:10
@PatrickAllaert have you my message about the NEWS file ?
Yes, but didn't had time for it yet
merge of all RC are missing, something like github.com/php/php-src/commit/…
ok
Yeah, I saw that looking at history of ChangeLog[78].php files
and saw that happening for NEWS too, so I know I have to do it...
IIRC, this one was really painful ;)
laravel 5 or cI 4?
14:12
Yesterday announcement was MUCH more time consuming than I expected
and actually, I think the php-8.1.0 tag should have had a clean NEWS from the start.
The detail of what happens between alpha/beta isn't relevant
Also, I was wondering how relevant it is to see, e.g., Fibers bug fixes that happened in RC as part of it.
Those were fixing new stuff, so seeing those entries in NEWS while coming from another stable release doesn't make much sense
yes, but hard to know what entry canbe clean
obviously all bug number appearing in 7.4.26 can be removed
for other, such as fibers, it is not trivial to know
example:
Fixed bug #81202 (powerpc64 build fails on fibers). (krakjoe)
For someone coming from 8.0.13, this is pointless
I would be tempted to say that all bug fixes related to fibers could be cleaned.
More importantly, the NEWS file does not include something like:
Implemented: Fibers support
Things like "readonly properties", "first-class callable", "fsync", "fdatasync", "array_is_list": none of this exist in the NEWS file
yes :s
cmb
cmb
@PatrickAllaert that should all be in UPGRADING; could be in NEWS as well, though
14:28
Well, if something new doesn't have any impact like something to be changed, it's not UPGRADING's purpose.
current NEWS is more like BUGFIXES
cmb
cmb
@PatrickAllaert UPGRADING is important for the migration guide, where new features needs to be listed as well as changes. And doc team won't wade through all news entries for that.
@HamzaZafeer ?
@HamzaZafeer what do you mean?
Mhhh, I thought migration guide was exclusively about behavior changes and what you were supposed to modify in your code for it to continue to work, while new features being elsewhere
that's how I was seeing it, but seems I was wrong
@Tiffany obviously wondering if Chaos Inoculation is worth it /s
@FĂ©lixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier XD
Need enough ES
14:33
that's like, a universal constant :)
@IluTov At least most of them have been downvoted into oblivion
14:53
@Tiffany which should i choose ?
@HamzaZafeer none of them? what are you trying to do, and how do you plan on using either to do that?
like, if I were to ask "hey should I use a hammer or a drill" any answer would be a huge guess on what I'm trying to do, and whether it implies nails or screws, or the type of wood I'd be hammering screws into.
15:31
@HamzaZafeer Why not both?
Also, isn't Laravel 5 an old version?
Yeah, it's in the "no longer maintained" status. Version 6 is in LTS, version 8 is the current version.
16:00
@MarkR True
16:22
o/
@collective_memory Did we already had an RFC that has been accepted while all 3 of Rasmus + Zeev + Andi voted "No" to?
@PatrickAllaert Dunno, but Andi and Zeev voting against something is usually a big endorsement that it's a good change :)
6
Only Rasmus' opinion has some value there ;)
@NikiC Haha, I don't have such a strong opinion, but I understand your POV ;)
But AFAICT, PHP 8.2 would be the first release containing something where the 3 original main contributors have said no to.
16:37
@NikiC @NikiC They both reached out wanting to have their "wiki password" reset.
@PatrickAllaert wiki.php.net/rfc/scalar_type_hints_v5 still counts, despite the apparent yes vote from Z, as there was a lot of bad behaviour trying to block that vote.
Curiously @SebastianBergmann also voted no on that one - I wonder whether he'd still be in the "no" camp 6 years later.
Now, I also voted no to that one... however the mailing list may tells why, the table doesn't
@Tiffany sorry :D
17:27
so, what is a compelling way of expressing the idea that, if something becomes evidently broken after a tool change, sometimes it's because it was broken to begin with, and that the tool only prevented hiding the problem behind uncertainty?
Shining a light on bad decisions
cmb
cmb
"Call you Uber Brady." :D
is this an american football reference?
@FĂ©lixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier "working by coincidence"....there's a reasonable reference online somewhere.....but i need to buy food before storm arrives...
do get some sustenance before the storm :)
case in point, converting some ($i == '0') to stricter equality and sane types got me in some kind of downward spiral which eventually lead to a succulent $i == '5_34' down the road, where someone had profited from loose equality to hide a string in an id until looking for it in a function hidden way, way down the execution path.
17:34
@Asgrim he was inflicting the r11 joke on twitter, I love it. XD
cmb
cmb
@FĂ©lixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier externals.io/message/116519#116532
nice
It feels like I'd understand so much more of r11's humour were I to read internals with more assiduity, also it looks a bit cursed
18:04
> And one that requires that the entire ocean be boiled before it is solved.
nice.
@FĂ©lixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier "Programming by Coincidence" was what I meant....if you have a copy of "the pragmatic programmer" it's in there, otherwise maybe a naughty pdf
oh nice
@Danack quite a way with words and hyperbole yes?
hyperbole yes, convincing words, not so much.
fyi The prag prog book is worth buying btw, if you have time to read it. Though amazon.co.uk/Timeless-Software-Development-Jerry-Fitzpatrick/dp/… has slightly more concrete advice.
18:18
@Danack :/
18:29
\o
jo/e
Dunno how to star stuff on phone, but +42 on the comment about A and Z ... A no from Z is how we know we're doing the right thing
Wondering why it was preferred to use attributes instead of an interface for allowing or disabling dynamic properties
For the record I am entirely disgusted by the attitude of people who work for companies who give totally biased advice that is based solely on their own interests, but expressed as if they are neutral parties.
I'd say most devs don't abuse dynamic properties
18:43
When you have the CTO of a company getting involved in a discusssion, and he just so happens to think that the choice that minimises the costs of maintaining the software he uses, it's absolutely not a neutral voice.
he's trying to persuade the PHP project to act in his interests, in preference to anyone elses.
This happens in every discussion where people who work for companies don't get want they want. They just instantly go to emotive language to try to get their way, instead of ponying up some cash.
> I know that saying 'no' to users is draining as they so often try to
guilt maintainers into doing work for free. If anyone would like me to
help explain to users "your company needs to start sponsoring this
project before this project will acknowledge this issue", in any of
their projects repos, please ping me on twitter
This feature is of no interest to me since I don't use dynamic properties because I consider magic to be bad practice. However, yes, there's are a lot of libs on packagist who may be using dynamic properties, it would be good to have some numbers on that before a feature is integrated to maintain compatibility. If it's on his interest or not, has me without care.
@SalOrozco Hello, I am Galstaff, sorceror of LIGHT.
How are you Danack
@SalOrozco in non-trivial amounts of pain actually. I suggest avoiding ever being in a car crash. They're not good for you.
18:51
I been in some.
I almost died once.
Actually lucky to be here today.
I hope you are ok
What happend?
A car I was in, due to the sun being very low, the driver failed to see a parked truck, and so we went into the back of it at 40mph. As the backseats of the car didn't have seatbelts, I went for a bounce around the car...
And then I sat at a computer for like 15 hours a day for 30 years....which I also don't recommend doing.
lol
thats me too danack
for the past 10 years i been in a cave
time goes by fast
when you do that
19:18
@NikiC I think we eliminated memory from contention, I threw together a custom extension that preallocated 1mb of memory for the smart_str, it didn't seem to have much effect. I can't use perf at the moment because the WSL2 kernel doesn't play nice with it.
morns
\o
Would you have any thoughts on the idea of a cachable serializable object? We're thinking that we could introduce a JsonPreserialized class that would contain a zstr for the contents and then do:

if (instanceof_function(Z_OBJCE_P(val), php_json_cached_serializable_ce)) { /* copy the pre-calculated string onto the smart_str here without any additional encoding */ }
The problem we're facing with that approach is it would be almost trivial to do if we modified json_encoder.c, but putting it in a custom extension would require copying almost all of json_encoder.c
19:36
Currently reading "refactoring", "Extreme Programming" any other books you guys recommend?
I have that one.
I should provably re-read it.
20:05
The company I work for is growing. Currently hiring PHP DEVs if anyone looking for a job.
20:19
@Danack er shit. is your skeleton generally ok? did you need to get some stuff checked out?
@Danack Oh God, hope you are fine. Have you gotten yourself checked?
20:39
er, it was 35 years ago....which unforunately means the tech for checking out skeletons kind of didn't exist (yes, xrays were a thing, but not great at detecting small fractures),
heh. I missed the temporal cue in there ;-)
20:50
unsure how I expected the auto formatter to perform here, but it certainly was not like this:
foreach ([
             "/themes/silver",
             "/icons/default",
             "/skins/ui/oxide",
             "/skins/content/default",
         ]
         as $folder) {
}
21:03
@derick what is 'creat' ?
So I fiddled about with json_encoder.c and added a new interface called JsonPreserializer which has a jsonPreserialize method returning a string. The string is just the result of json_encode() called in the constructor for a class implementing JsonPreserializer.

I performed a nested loop, 50000 iterations encoding an array of 200 items (sub arrays containing about 15 keys, resulting in around 700b each).

Re-encoding the entire array each time took 4.93 seconds.
Re-encoding using the pre-serialized copy took 1.14 seconds,
JRL
JRL
well, finally finished with moving and getting all settled, so i can start working on operator overloads again, and i find that the ASTs for comparisons have totally changed, lol
are all comparisons under ZEND_AST_BINARY_OP now?
JRL
JRL
21:25
ah, nvm, that isn't what changed
does anyone have any good resources explaining how software testing is the awesomesauce and all the good things it brings to your product?
I'm trying to introduce some company-wide resources about the importance of tests as well as how to get started with 'em
JRL
JRL
like... QA?
oh, automated testing
we're hiring entry level developers now and they are learning the products as well as how to write code that you can 'trust' and all
so I figured there's value in providing some resources on software testing, levels of testing et cetera
JRL
JRL
dont have any handy resources for that, sorry
i always handled that with entry level devs by just telling them it was required to merge
as far as getting them to do it
no worries <3
JRL
JRL
21:35
doing it is really how you see the value of it
yeah that's indeed a given
they have some good amount of time until they'll reach to point of testing things tbh, but better be prepared for it before they reach that
Have a great weekend, everyone!
@Ekin \o/
you too my friend \o/
nice timing btw, literally at the second I called it a week :-P
JRL
JRL
oh wow
@Ekin Maybe approaching it through the angle of debugging existing code is an accessible hanging fruit. For instance, writing a test to reproduce a problem can present a good case study of the cost and use of tests, from refactoring towards testable (or even settle on tested) code to having a measure of how solved it is
JRL
JRL
21:47
lol, i spent like a full week banging my head on this back in august, and just fixed my opcode problem in 15 minutes picking it up again now
dangit, guess not
> Fatal error: Invalid opcode 203/8/1. in /home/jordan/Projects/php-src/run-tests.php on line 1920
wherein I've really just repeated "doing it is really how you see the value of it" but with more words, dang
JRL
JRL
so I've added the defines for the two new op codes in zend_vm_opcodes.h, increased ZEND_VM_LAST_OPCODE by 2 for the two new opcodes, and added the opcode names and flags to zend_vm_opcodes.c
What is the rv as the final param of zend_read_property meant to do? I can't seem to find anything using it
JRL
JRL
i don't see anywhere else in the codebase that limits the maximum opcode or is necessary to define them
@FĂ©lixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier that could actually work nicely, given they are also (probably) new to debugging and all the thought process that comes with it. Totes noted
22:01
@JRL You do know about zend_vm_gen.php, right?
JRL
JRL
@NikiC yes, but i didn't think that would result in an invalid op code error. i see that's where the error is thrown from, however it seems like it should only throw that error if there's something missing somewhere else.
ah i see now
shouldn't this generation be handled by the flags though? I set it as the same as IS_SMALLER: 0x00000b0b
JRL
JRL
22:22
oh wow, i see, the generation goes the other direction
so i clearly didn't know about zend_vm_gen.php
not to the extent i needed to
JRL
JRL
22:36
i guess it should have been a bit more obvious to me that zend_vm_def.h defines the op codes
yep, works now
i presume that renumbering the op codes would be bad form even if it looks like it should work just fine?
right now i have ZEND_IS_LARGER at the end with code 203, instead of next to ZEND_IS_SMALLER which is op code 20
23:00
It's okay to renumber, but normally not done unless there's a need (e.g. some opcodes must be adjacent)
JRL
JRL
23:42
hmmm, greater than comparisons with NAN are returning true now
specifically the 0> NAN and 0 >= NAN cases. The 0 > $nan and >= $nan cases are correct, so there's something reverse in the CONST CONST handler i guess?
JRL
JRL
23:59
oh hmmm

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