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12:50 AM
Why is a paperback book 30 dollars but the hardback copy is almost half that? (50/50 rhetorical question)
Almost tempted to just give in and buy a new Kindle, which I plan to do at some point, but I've been holding off for now
 
1:02 AM
I've been tempted myself, but I dunno, I doubt a kindle would feel like a book... no bend in it
 
It doesn't feel like a book, and it's sometimes harder to hold while laying down. My hands are on the smallish side though.
I use a Kindle for the convenience of a single device that's backlit and uses e-ink. Easier on the eyes than my phone or tablet.
I bought a "reading light" that rests around my neck, which has actually turned out to be more useful for other stuff than reading physical books ...
 
 
3 hours later…
3:56 AM
PECL install fails for recent extensions ・ PECL ・ #80693
 
On the topic of books, can anyone suggest some light reading before bedtime, with the goal of winding down for sleep? I tried reading a couple of books that required thinking, and realized they aren't conducive to winding down.
Like a children's bedtime story but for adults...
 
 
2 hours later…
5:35 AM
@DaveRandom This was the consideration I was looking for. Thanks.
 
@NikiC Here's the .dtor_obj documentation PR: github.com/php/php-src/pull/6656.
 
Hey Levi, how are you doing?
 
Alright. Just trying to land some php-src contributions.
 
On php.net?
 
No, on the language itself. Two PRs: 1. and 2.
 
5:57 AM
interesting
 
 
1 hour later…
7:18 AM
morns
 
8:01 AM
Good morning.
 
8:27 AM
@Tpojka It doesn't even fail, it says "Cloning into..." and it hangs in there, forever. I left for a whole day, on Saturday, and nothing, not even a message error
 
@GabrielCaruso Because there are 4 commands. Just wanted to see where it fails. It fails on first command.
 
@Tpojka I piped them to make it easy to send it here, but git submodule init works, git submodule update doesn't
The first git clone, no problems as well
 
9:05 AM
git clone didn't work then started working? I'd always suspect to server issue for git clone.
 
10:00 AM
@NikiC Are you joining me?
 
@Derick could you please send me the link again?
 
It's just whereby.com with my twitter handle
 
 
2 hours later…
11:43 AM
@LeviMorrison I've expanded the explanations a bit more while merging
 
 
1 hour later…
12:55 PM
@NikiC I DM tweeted you that transcript
 
@Derick Thanks
 
Good morning!
 
 
1 hour later…
2:14 PM
Mogogrnig
 
2:41 PM
DateTime::createFromFormat not return false in all cases ・ Date/time related ・ #80694
 
3:01 PM
o/
 
3:17 PM
\o
 
o/
 
\o
 
\o/
 
@Crell Sooo, alternative names for IterableEnum? EnumWithFiniteCasesThatAlsoHasCasesMethods :D ClosedEnum would be an option but also misleading because ADTs aren't "open" in the sense that they can be extended or anything.
 
Bah, I hate it when CI has test failures because of something I did, but I can't reproduce it locally in debug builds, non-debug builds, nor in asan+ubsan builds.
 
3:26 PM
@IluTov Eh, what?
 
Maybe it's genuinely a Mac vs Linux thing this time: ci.appveyor.com/project/php/php-src/builds/37541951/job/…
 
@Crell Nikita isn't fond of IterabeEnum because usually iterable refers to the type itself being iterable which isn't the case here.
 
Sigh.gif
 
3:42 PM
@IluTov I have suggested just FiniteEnum in my mail …
 
3:58 PM
@IluTov Can you respond to Nikita on the reflection front? I have no strong preference other than "I was trying to do that" :-)
 
@bwoebi I'd be happy with that.
 
Hm. FiniteEnum, which by implication means iterating all the cases (cases()) is a reasonable thing to do.
I'm OK with that if we can't find anything better.
 
@bwoebi That name also crossed my mind, but then pedantic mode kicked in and claimed that enum { case Foo(bool); } is also finite ^^
 
@NikiC technically Foo(int) is also finite by the number of possible integers being bounded…
But unless we chose a superdescriptive name of at least 25 chars, I don't guess we find a nice name
 
4:19 PM
@NikiC But it's still not finite as in how many instances you can create (even if equal).
 
externals.io/message/112934#113039 - I'm curious whether I'm alone here or whether people don't consider it important enough. I think this is a case of, better reject it now than have it broken later - allowing for a future better RFC
 
@bwoebi I don't understand the problem space well enough to have a useful opinion.
@NikiC Is pedantic mode enough to stop us from using FiniteEnum? :-)
 
@Crell php -a: $var = new BigObjectWithDeeplyNestedStructures;
boom - 1 MB of terminal output
 
@bwoebi I so rarely use php -a that I've not really been paying attention to the whole thread. :-)
That said, cat and friends can easily spew a bajillion lines to the console and my console doesn't break.
 
4:37 PM
@Crell it doesn't break, but it's severely annoying and you cannot ctrl+c it wthout interrupting the whole php -a session
(I always curse when I cat a bajillion lines though)
 
4:52 PM
@bwoebi I think you're right
@IluTov hm, good point
 
cmb
@bwoebi Thanks for pointing this out! (I wanted to reply to your mail, but that wasn't really possible; seems the headers are missing.)
 
@Crell Can't think of anything better than FiniteEnum, should we rename?
@NikiC "I'm also not really happy with the ReflectionEnumPureCase vs
ReflectionEnumBackedCase split in the reflection API. I think there should
be some form of common base here." Note that `ReflectionEnumBackedCase` does extend `ReflectionEnumPureCase` the reason we (or I, I suppose) decided against `ReflectionEnumCase` was that at this point we're not sure what methods cases with associated values and current cases will share. So instead of providing an empty marker interface we dropped it altogether.
That said, we could combine the two classes again, but since ADTs cases will definitely require a separate class it felt odd to have a "combined" class for pure and value cases but a separate class for ADT cases.
 
5:21 PM
@IluTov But will there be an InfiniteEnum? :P
 
@NikiC @Crell Sigh. Another option for reflection is creating a separate class after all with the bare minimum methods so we reuse this class for ADTs in the future. getValue (or whatever name we would choose) would simply throw for cases with assoc values, getAssocValues would return an empty array for non ADT cases or throw. @Crell will hate me at this point.
 
@cmb which headers?
 
cmb
the email headers; when I inspect the source code, there are none
 
@cmb I mean, in my mail, or in what you tried to reply? I have like 60 headers in my mail (as received back)
 
cmb
it's about the mail you sent; but more likely there was a bad NNTP transfer (I don't have a subject line, but news-web.php.net/php.internals/113039 looks good)
 
5:31 PM
@IluTov FiniteEnum works for me unless Nikita or someone objects.
 
@NikiC I'm just a bit worried that I thought about this so late in the vote cycle and … the vote terminates tomorrow, would need at least 2 additional no votes
 
@IluTov @Crell How about ... EnumerableEnum :P
 
Ah, I see, it's time for tautologies
 
As you used UnitEnum originally, why did you move away from that?
And to make a serious suggestion, I think something like SimpleEnum could also work
Though it breaks the unwritten rule that everything with "Simple" in the name must be really complex
5
 
@NikiC I other words, we can rename it or add some really funky semantic rules :P
 
5:46 PM
@IluTov I'll opt for the funky semantics, just for the spite of it
 
@NikiC @Crell didn't think the term unit was accurate, mostly because we used it to describe both pure and backed cases. I still think that would make sense, unit meaning there's a single instance of this case, no matter whether it's backed or not.
@Crell Correct me if I misrepresented you.
 
I thought I had seen Unit used somewhere in other languages to refer to non-backed cases in my research, so I used it that way, but then I couldn't find it again to verify.
 
Any comments on the reflection part above?
 
I feel like that is somewhere, though, because I don't think I made it up out of thin air. Hence my reluctance.
 
@Crell You have 24 hours to find the reference :P
 
5:52 PM
scream.gif
 
Honestly, they might've also just misused the term. A "unit type" is commonly referred to a type with one possible value. So that seems very fitting here.
 
@IluTov My main criteria are type predictability. I dislike throw ThisMethodDoesntMakeSenseInThisContext() patterns. Whether we get there with one class, 2, or 3, I don't have especially strong feelings.
 
@IluTov Could be UniquedEnum or InternedEnum to highlight the "single instance", but those are probably too technical
 
@Crell Well, those are the two options, separate classes, separate APIs, combined classes, combined APIs. We could of course return an enum Case { case Pure($pureCase); case Backed($backedCase); case ADT($adtCAse); } :P
 
Hello
 
6:04 PM
@IluTov At this point I lean toward separate classes; what inherits from what or if there's an empty interface or base class to go along with it, I'm not going to die on the hill either way. Whatever @NikiC prefers works for me. :-)
 
7:03 PM
@IluTov Huh. Per Alex's email just now, $card = 'Clubs', Suit::$card; doesn't seem to work, but I would expect it to?
 
@Crell No, Suit::$card means static property. I don't think dynamic const lookup is supported.
This works though: 3v4l.org/ZBBea/rfc#output
 
7:22 PM
Hm, interesting.
Do we want to offer some other name -> case instance mechanism?
 
@Crell IMO if anybody wants to improve that that makes sense for all constants.
Foo::{$bar} would be viable I think, it's just not implemented.
 
@IluTov just wanted to say that
 
So... FiniteEnum? Going Once? Going Twice?
 
Mornings / Evenings
 
7:44 PM
Afternoon!
 
good afternoon
Afternoon is considered as evening
 
@IluTov "Note that ReflectionEnumBackedCase does extend ReflectionEnumPureCase " Hm I missed that. I guess I was confused by the naming here
The RFC uses the terminology "pure" (for non-backed), "backed", and "unit" (for "pure" or "backed")
 
I think we removed all references to "unit".
 
@IluTov sounds good to me, would support that
 
@Crell It's like the very first line in the RFC :D
 
7:53 PM
Well <expletive deleted>.
 
@Crell But the point still stands that "backed extends pure" isn't in line with the RFC terminology
 
We've gone back and forth about 15 times on whether that makes sense, conceptually.
 
Extremely slow PHP file access operations on all Windows OS's ・ *Directory/Filesystem functions ・ #80695
2
 
8:12 PM
Screech has died (Saved by the Bell for those who remember.)
 
@Crell Heh. I really love the enum RFC ... apart from the parts that involve names :D
 
Naming things, cache invalidation, and off by 1 errors.
 
yup
 
So... FiniteEnum? Going once? Going twice?
 
8:58 PM
@NikiC Yeah maybe it would make more sense for the base class to be called ReflectionEnumUnitCase actually.
@Crell Well, I wonder if we actually have a good reason not to call it UnitEnum.
 
@IluTov Because apparently we cannot find a reference for that word meaning anything that we can reference, despite me thinking I had originally. :-)
 
@Crell But as mentioned, how do we know that word wasn't misused in whatever reference you remember. Unit type e.g. has a clear definition. This seems not far off. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_type
 
Hm. It's actually very far off, because unit type in that case would mean an enum with only one case statement, essentially. It's a type that is not very useful outside of category theory proofs.
Which, now that you remind me of it, means that UnitEnum is definitely the wrong word to use, no question. So that's right out. :-)
 
@Crell We're not calling it a unit type, but a unit case, each case just has one instance.
 
@Crell Does crates.io/crates/enum-unitary count as a reference? ^^
 
9:06 PM
@NikiC I'm unclear what that does. But it's definitely not what I saw before that made me think unit was a good name.
 
@NikiC I read it as urinary and was very confused for a second :D
 
LOL
 
@Crell EnumWithAllUnitCases, happy? ^^
Exclusively would be even more specific
 
9:34 PM
:-P
I still think FiniteEnum is the best I've heard so far.
 
Is this the what-to-call-enums-other-than-enums discussion?
 
Yes. Come on in, the water is fine.
 
@Crell But as Nikita mentioned the ReflectionEnumBackedCase: ReflectionEnumPureCase class hierarchy technically doesn't make sense. ReflectionEnumBackedCase: ReflectionEnumUnitCase would be more accurate. That part still isn't solved with FiniteEnum.
@MarkR Yes, but where's the "Are we sure we're ok with" e-mail?
 
My vote is for "BC will just have to suck it, Enum is the right thing to call it and let's not spend the next 20 years having lolphp's about why it's named something needlessly obscure"
 
Good news is, we have enough time for at least 10 renaming RFCs until December.
 
9:40 PM
@IluTov I don't know who the 8.1 RM will be, but you just guaranteed that whoever they are, they want to hurt you.
 
hehehehe
"Enum" isn't the debate. What do we call non-backed enums is the debate.
 
@MarkR I nominate Mark as RM for PHP 8.1 :)
 
@Crell I thought you'd put Pure in the rfc?
 
@Crell I think what we're looking for is Pure|Backed.
I have no problem with pure.
 
@IluTov I still don't think "unit" makes sense for anything now, now that you've pointed out the proper meaning of unit types.
Right, I meant the collective name. Really, we're just trying to rename IterableEnum and sort out reflection to keep Nikita happy. :-)
 
9:45 PM
@Crell But calling the case a "finite" case doesn't make sense either. So we'll have to come up with a different term just for the case or we continue calling it ReflectionEnumPureCase which is also inaccurate.
 
Pure has no conflicting meaning here. The closest is pure function, which... being immutable these all fit.
 
@IluTov Bad plan. I struggle with making git work at the best of times ¬__¬
 
...weirdly, since you are now old enough to be one
 
Excuse me, but I prefer to go by grumpy old bastard, not git.
 
@Crell But we're not calling it a unit type. I just wanted to demonstrate that unit commonly refers to a single value. Unit case seems very accurate. Yes, the UnitEnum isn't a unit type, but ScalarEnum also didn't mean the enum was a scalar.
 
9:48 PM
Naming things, cache invalidation, and off by one errors...
 
@Crell What I meant is that ReflectionEnumBackedCase is an instance of ReflectionEnumPureCase while not actually being pure.
As per our definition, pure means no backed value.
 
@MarkR Grouchy Insipid Tosspot, and I can come up with 10 more acronym definitions you would struggle to argue with if you want me to
Grimly irritable Twat
Ghost In Training (applies to anyone who is currently alive)
 
@Crell Sooo... What do we do now? ^^
 
I don't see what's wrong with Pure Case and PureCase in reflection. FiniteEnum is descriptive of the enum type that encompasses both Pure Enums and Backed Enums. And.. I can live with whatever reflection hierarchy you and Nikita agree on.
 
10:07 PM
...are we now at the point where the only thing to discuss about enums is "2 hard problems"?
s/we/you/
good work :-)
 
Basically. :-)
 
@Crell "What I meant is that ReflectionEnumBackedCase is an instance of ReflectionEnumPureCase while not actually being pure."
So, we need another term here, Unit would be fitting. But then we have two terms describing the same thing.
 
So give them a common parent or interface? Isn't that what Nikita wanted?
 
@Crell Nope, Nikita misread that. ReflectionEnumBackedCase already is a subclass of ReflectionEnumPureCase. But the naming is not accurate. How can a ReflectionEnumBackedCase also be a ReflectionEnumPureCase? The base class needs a different name.
 
sigh.gif
 
10:23 PM
ReflectionEnumBaseCase? 🙈
 
ReflectionEnumCrellShouldveComeUpWithABetterNameButRanOutOfTimeCase
 
ReflectionEnumTODOCase
@IluTov I think that for the purpose of reflection, just using ReflectionEnumCase may be okay. As the class doesn't actually define any methods, it's forward-compatible with extensions
 
ReflectionEnumBasketCase
 
@NikiC Are you suggesting renaming ReflectionEnumPureCase to ReflectionEnumCase or introducing a new empty base class ReflectionEnumCase?
 
10:42 PM
@IluTov renaming
ReflectionEnumPureCase is already an empty base class, right?
 
Ugh, merging an array of numeric keys … array_merge(...$foo) resets the numeric indices of the subarrays of $foo. and PHP has no (+)(...$foo) to invoke an operator on all args
any real solution is going to involve a foreach I guess
(well apart from array function hackery)
 
@NikiC Yeah. The problem is that it extends ReflectionClassConstant which won't make sense for ADT cases because they'll be semantically closer to methods than constants.
Static methods, that is.
 
@bwoebi I can provide you with a very disgusting solution
 
@Crell I just noticed the getEnum method was lost on the case reflection.
 
cast the keys to float as they'll be written as a string...
 
10:47 PM
@Girgias I prefer $ret = []; foreach ($foo as $v) { $ret += $v; }, but thanks
 
Eh that ain't too bad
 
it's just not as elegant as it could be
 
@IluTov ah, I see
I have a solution
Just don't do ADTs
 
haha
 
That's where all the problems really come from ^^
 
10:52 PM
I supposed that would be one solution.
I hope it's not a unit solution :P
 
11:20 PM
Unitary, unary and urinary
 
@NikiC Is the memory used for zend_execute_data likely to get reused? I'm reading the call stack from another thread without pausing or anything, so I certainly expect some corruption, but if frames get reused it would likely explain the particular pattern I'm seeing.
Or, I may have some other bug. Yay for doing things that are inherently race conditions!
 
Subtracting an interval of 1 month 1 day subtracts one more day ・ Date/time related ・ #80696
 
11:35 PM
@IluTov Oh bah. What was that for again? Getting the enum class reflection, yes?
Restored.
 
@Crell Yeah, the equivalent of getDeclaringClass
Thanks :)
 
11:58 PM
Huh.
"An enumerated type can be seen as a degenerate tagged union of unit type." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_type

I... don't quite get how that works given the description of a unit type. Logically that doesn't make sense to me.
But... further down it says "unit typeS" when it repeats the sentence.

"In type theory, enumerated types are often regarded as tagged unions of unit types."
Which makes slightly more sense to me.
So... I guess Wikipedia agrees with you, Ilija. :-P
 

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