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7:00 PM
@Crell Well at a minimal level, just adding a extra param for the 'default' value would be the easiest choice.
 
cmb
a convention, and cannot be relied upon
 
yeh but null bytes in the path make it invalid, they don't make it the wrong type
 
cmb
nope, they are happily accepted by C
 
@DaveRandom Which is why we changed them to throw ValueErrors instead of TypeErrors late in the beta cycle
 
ah right, then fine
 
7:01 PM
And IMHO fopen() and any other file handling functions should throw
 
cmb
I mean, C funcs truncate, and that is a potential sec issue
 
So something like:

$blah_blah but 'default value' => try { $blah_blah } catch (Throwable) { return 'default value'; }
 
@Girgias +100000
 
It is unfortunate that is_dir/is_file were affected by this change as they used the Path ZPP check, but that is something which has been "wrong" since PHP 5.4
 
any failure to open a file is exceptional
 
7:04 PM
There is another 'seemless' option and that's deprecating the existing file io system, replace it with a new properly designed system that throws, write a PHP based backport and write a compatibility layer
 
@Girgias it wasn't wrong I don't think, rather it was presumably used to short-circuit the return in the invalid case
 
@DaveRandom it always depends on the abstraction layer you operate on
 
it's definitely unnecessary, but at the time I think it's a defensible decision
 
@DaveRandom Indeed which is why I put quotation marks around wrong :D but the logic here is that it shouldn't have been warning about an invalid string/path
 
@bwoebi I'm thinking about the local filesystem only when I say that
 
7:05 PM
And it didn't return false, it returned null which is why one can also argue the behaviour was wrong
 
ffs
yeh that is definitely wrong :-P
 
@DaveRandom even then, but our streams abstraction encompasses everything :-)
 
idk why you are smiling about streams, but sure
 
@DaveRandom because the abyss is a nice place … or did I get that wrong?
 
Exception thrown instead of return false ・ PDO MySQL ・ #80458
 
7:07 PM
I don't think there is a conventional "recoil in horror" ascii emoji
there may not be one in unicode, but now that I've mentioned it there will be soon
 
:scream: is what I usually use.
The entire stream/file system is due for replacement. This is known.
What to replace it with is not known. :-)
 
no sub/superscript latin alphabet, but there are unicode code points for numerous fruits
 
Isn't Sara working on something re: streams?
 
@MarkR That would have been resource to object conversion IIRC
 
I assume the reason there are so many different types of crying emoji is that the people who designed them are working on the unicode specification
6
 
7:09 PM
Star this ^
 
cmb
@Crell use the well designed SPL instead?
 
@Girgias done
 
:(
 
@PeeHaa you're welcome
 
Not my message you dofus :P
 
7:13 PM
Star all the things \o/
 
BTW I wanted to ask this earlier, but I have been buuusy.
How have you been @user3942918?
 
well thanks, yourself?
 
Good good :) Busy as hell lately, but good
 
:) I understand, just now finally have a minute to breathe
 
Is that good or bad?
Or both?
 
7:22 PM
it is good
 
Awesome \o/
 
now make ekin review my PRs before I wander off again.. gitamp turns 4 soon and should be released
 
Oh I thought she already had a looksy at it
Will poke here
Just shouted to the other side of the desk. She's busy too right now, but is getting there soon :)
 
good enough. give her my best too please o/
 
I did: "been too long"
Which is true :)
 
7:31 PM
Not the match blocks debate again :( If you don't want to use blocks, don't use them ;)
 
anyone know who is running gcov.php.net or if it's still joe?
 
I thiiiink @pmmaga also looked at the thing?
 
Especially if we want to improve match with pattern matching, saying "resort to switch" just doesn't make sense.
 
@IluTov It's the functional programming mafia again
 
@cmb You're the first person I've heard call SPL well designed. :-)
 
7:33 PM
@Crell That was sarcasm
 
@NikiC Hey buddy, wanna buy a function?
 
@pmmaga if you have access to gcov.php.net i'd like to test a fix for 7.4 and up coverage in production because it's one word and I can't be bothered to figure out how to replicate the environment to test locally
 
@user3942918 We decommisionned that site, test coverage is on Azure Pipelines now
 
Hey @user3942918! Do I know you?
 
@NikiC hi yes, i'm paul c
@Girgias cool have a link handy?
 
7:38 PM
@user3942918 It's a bit of a hassle, you need to find the last scheduled build, let me try to find the latest
 
thanks
 
@user3942918 Heh, why are you @user3942918 now?
 
And no more seahorse :(
 
@NikiC changed when I noped out of stackoverflow a while back
 
mornings / evenings
 
7:47 PM
@Girgias btw you can throw bash <(curl -s https://codecov.io/bash) on the end of the workflow and it should upload coverage automagically to codecov.io.. be less of a hassle to discover, look similar to this minimal test app.codecov.io/gh/pcrov/php-src
 
Huh
It's currently being a Hassle because MS doesn't know how to make a website apparently, I'm getting perma redirected OUT of Azure Pipelines
Needed to open it in a new FF container
PHP 7.4: https://dev.azure.com/phpazuredevops/PHP/_build/results?buildId=13258&view=codecoverage-tab
PHP 8.0: https://dev.azure.com/phpazuredevops/PHP/_build/results?buildId=13260&view=codecoverage-tab
Master: https://dev.azure.com/phpazuredevops/PHP/_build/results?buildId=13259&view=codecoverage-tab
 
@Tiffany :( still use the seahorse everywhere else in case that helps.. not gone, not forgotten :)
@Girgias thanks. how weird that those work but trying to go up a level it badgers me to sign in and redirects me out.
 
@user3942918 Welcome to MS not knowing how do make a bloody website
 
no kidding.. well, if gcov ain't coming back it'd be nice to see it on codecov or elsewhere.. i'll open a fr
 
I imagine you could do that by tweaking the Azure configure thing? Maybe?
 
8:00 PM
@user3942918 Open a PR or stay forever silent
Hm, apparently the phrase is "forever hold your peace"
 
fine, i'll dig through the azure yaml crap
 
8:28 PM
Fuck you stas
Ugh I was planning to work on the null byte issue tomorrow morning, but I don't think I can justify that anymore
 
Eh?
 
@NikiC I only skimmed the is_file/is_dir thread; what were you planning on fixing and why can't you fix it now?
 
@Tiffany I found a funny error
 
8:59 PM
The return of RH................
 
9:26 PM
proposal:
function is_file(string $string): bool {
    return false; // Strings are not files.
}
 
@Tiffany error:1416F086:SSL routines: tls_process_server_certificate: certificate verify failed (unabel to get local issuer certiicate)
Even when I use ldap_option_set to point to the CA cert on the local computer
 
9:46 PM
@Crell Personally, I don't buy into the whole "your function needs to be < 3 lines or it is dirty" mindset. It's the programmers job to use it responsibly. Purely functional languages have some interesting features but they also make everyday things unnecessarily difficult. I think you get the most power when mixing these paradigms and use the one that's most applicable.
 
@IluTov All joking aside, I agree. I'm not against multi-line functions, and "mostly functional" is where I'd argue most programs should be these days. (Keep your IO monads away from me.)
But there are optimizations and language tricks you can only do if the interpreter/compiler can be guaranteed certain things are true, which a pure functional language can offer. There are other ways, of course, but it's the most straightforward.
 
@Crell Meanwhile, functional languages are slow in comparison :P
I get what you're saying of course.
 
Depends on the language and which decade you mean. ;-)
Interpreted languages are slower than compiled, and yet we use them daily.
 
Honestly I want to see the benchmark games when they sort out PHP to enable OPcache/JIT
 
functional languages are content that their optimizations are theoretically beautiful, there's no interest in trivial things like implementation
 
10:09 PM
@user3942918 Except for the functional languages that have real software written in them that run major parts of the world infrastructure.
 
Doesn't most of the Telco industry run with Erlang?
 
At least at one point. I don't know if that's still the case.
And I've used real applications written in Haskell.
F# gets used in enough real software to have conferences about it.
 
@Crell pandoc... just amazing
 
10:27 PM
confusing, why would I see ideways_xhprof_arginfo.h:5:2: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘ZEND_ARG_INFO_WITH_DEFAULT_VALUE’ [-Wimplicit-function-declaration] - this is using a generated stub on php 7. it works for other extensions...
 
All issues have been resolved!
 
@Crell I'll assume you're talking about c here
 
@NikiC If you're around, could I ask you for an example on the new/instanceof parts of wiki.php.net/rfc/variable_syntax_tweaks ? I'm not really following what syntax is now possiblet hat wasn't before.
@user3942918 No, I'm talking about Erlang, Haskell, and F#. The idea that functional programming is strictly for academic nerds with no use in the real world is patently false and has been out of date for at least a quarter century.
 
@Crell new ('Foo\' . $bar), $x instanceof ('Foo\' . $bar)
 
erlang is dirty af
 
10:37 PM
@beberlei There is a @generate-legacy-arginfo option to also generate arginfo files that are compatible with PHP 7
 
Ah, OK. Whereas previously you had to assign it to a temp variable to the new/instanceof. Got it, thanks.
 
and if you have to say "I've used real applications written in language" to convince people it's not too niche, it's too niche
 
@user3942918 Is there a reason you're trolling? PHP is hardly one to throw stones. :-)
 
i think you're taking a joke about a programming paradigm a little too personally
 
Jokes are funny when they don't directly contradict reality. :-)
 
10:44 PM
didn't mean to hurt your feelings
 
@JukEboX ? why are you pinging me?
 
@Tiffany You're clearly been too helpful in the past, rookie mistake :P
 
So. A company that uses PHP as it's backend just sold for $27.7B. techcrunch.com/2020/12/01/salesforce-buys-slack Remind me why there is no-one funding PHP projects.
 
10:59 PM
@Danack Don't they use Hack at this point? Or did they go back to PHP?
Or did I mix that up altogether.
 
cmb
@Crell Nikita already pointed out that it was sarcasm, but it's also some food for thought: even a well intended alternative to some existing functionality may end up having worse functionality (not in every respect, but in some). Good API design is hard. :|
 
@IluTov Close enough.
 
@cmb Fact
 
And the context is that Heroku (owned by Salesforce) are quite keen on getting all extensions supporting 8, but are far less keen than supporting open source projects.
 
@IluTov 😖
 
11:07 PM
Because... and I know I keep on banging on about this, there's no way to support "PHP" in a tax efficient manner without hiring an entire dev
 
@Danack because if php projects start getting all uppity demanding funding then billion dollar companies can get the work free from elsewhere instead or keep in-house what they pay for
even with hack facebook kept the important part of what they paid for in-house - control
 
Derick has the right idea in a way, £200/yr + invoice. Only ends up costing me £120
 
@Danack Also, if I remember correctly, Facebook was interested in contributing in contributing but 1. their vision and internals vision for PHP simply did not align 2. Facebook, mainly worrying about a single PHP codebase, was interested in much much more radical changes than the internals team (which is also why Hack does crazy syntax changes that PHP simply could never afford) and 3. They saw some performance opportunities with the JIT compiler.
@Danack Not anymore. Ever since they have become incompatible any company using Hack won't give a fuck about what happens to PHP and vice versa.
 
You could say that connection was severed... as if it was... hacked off ... *badum tish*(
 
@Danack That said, your point remains, there must be more companies interested in seeing PHP evolve. Sadly, as long as it is evolving they probably won't see the need to intervene.
 
11:23 PM
 
On the other hand, a company investing heavily would likely expect some kind of control to ensure that their money is well spent.
 
@MarkR For sure. Why invest money into RFCs that have a high likelihood of getting rejected?
 
In at least 7.3, it's not possible to use null coalesce with a thrown exception. Is it a smell to want to be able to?
 
Yup. From a business perspective, I could throw $100,000 at a full time dev to push forward a dozen different RFCs but I still get 1 vote out of 60ish.
 
@MarkR " i) docs ii) bug fixes iii) new features. Please indicate which of these you would like the money to be spent."
 
11:36 PM
@MarkR or you could pay nothing to wring out all the value you can from the project until it dies and the next generation of eager young developers steps up to feed your need until they too become disillusioned with working for free, rinse repeat retire
 
Well I would need to be able to justify the benefit to the business as an expense, so for me I think 2, 1, 3 in that order.... I'm willing to put into a pot for generics but the only person who could realistically get them implemented and passed already has a PHP salary
 
@Danack i) the company doesn't care ii) why pay when we already do that? iii) problem described above
 
I could make all the github donations I like, but as I can't claim them back on tax it costs me 40% more, that's 40% I could be otherwise be spending on additional dev time
 
@MarkR To be honest this is part of the problem. Corporations are cheap, so we go to work to fund the tools we need to make money for our corporation? That just makes no God damn sense.
 
@IluTov Things are often built on the efforts of others.... I figure I wrote maybe 0.1% of the code required to run the services I provide. I didn't write the database, the operating system, nginx, php etc.... my value to my clients is writing the 0.1% which makes those things fit their very specific needs.
Maybe 0.001%
 
11:50 PM
ah, php 8.0 docker images are out now.
 
Has the x86 images finished yet? They hadn't a few hours ago when I checked
Tell ye what, someone tell me how much it would cost to have the PHP docker image creation brought in-house and automated :-)
 
nice phpunit 8 got php 8 support.
@MarkR the docker files should be available public.
 
oh cool... i should've slacked off updating to 9 but great for those who did
 
@hakre The scripts and such are aye, IMO they should be triggered automatically by the RMs but the docker images aren't managed by internals afaik
 
So the Windows and MacOS builds are currently failing :|
 
11:55 PM
@MarkR no idea if they should, can't say that. maybe it's helpful when there is more working together. I was using RC images, last one RC5.
 
@hakre I am on RC5 myself, I tried to build against 8.0.0 earlier but the x86 wasnt ready yet
That and it's about a week late.
@Girgias Purely for morbid curiosity... if I may be so bold as to ask, are you self employed?
 
cmb
@Girgias github.com/php/php-src/pull/6470 would solve the Windows issue (alternative solutions might be preferable, though)
 
@MarkR just running it, looks done since 3 hrs something.
 
@MarkR I'm a student technically, although decided to interrupt my studies about 3 weeks ago because I cannot learn shit remotely for university
Should really make my CV to find a job for 6-9 months
 
@Girgias may I suggest that you don't... so that you finish your degree :P
assuming you actually want to finish it :P
unless you can find something that's contracted specifically for 6-9 months
 
11:59 PM
@Tiffany Well I got a year break so I need to do something in the mean time
 
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