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13:00
zend_execute_ex without hitting the C stack issue would be great
I also lol'd
Let me rephrase that in a slightly less laughable way. Who's behind the twitter php.net?
adam and sara iirc
I probably don't rc
however ... you know that the php devs on twitter, and following that account is a very very very very tiny number ... very tiny ... I can't stress enough, it's tiny ...
the difficult thing is putting the information in the hands of the people who make decisions both technical and financial, that's much harder ... so hard that you might laugh at it if someone suggested that's what you needed to do ...
Mmmmkay. Is some better communication / outreach something that would be in the purview of internals, or is that someone else's problem?
like I said, I dunno what it looks like ...
13:05
i believe it works quite well already, tech publications on that level know how to gather the information they need
and on a usergroup level its just an automatically working crowd sourced effect
we are cancelling our php architect subscription as an org today, I guess it's all to be found in laracrap casts or whatever now ...
I know it was a joke, but when asked how they keep up to date on stuff and where they read about stuff (by which I meant patterns/components/etc), I got the answer "flame wars on twitter/reddit" ...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest thing I ever discovered to a regular PHP briefing was the Jetbrains stuff
Those work too :P
if it was true that such publications were succeeding in putting this information into the correct hands, why are we having this conversation ? they're obviously not doing a very good job of that ... still I don't know what any better solution looks like, so ...
Well that's why I was asking Joe. Because following on from the 5.x conversation, there seems to be something of a failure of getting the message out.
and I wanted to enquire if anyone specifically had taken up the mantle of that particular battle.
13:20
I really don't think getting the message out is the problem
It's not like people on PHP 5 are simply not aware that PHP 7 exists. They just don't want to make the (likely financial) investment of upgrading.
I do wonder how many people are aware 7.1 is a couple of months away from the end of security support.
And so the technical debt increases evermore...
@MarkR Security support isn't really what people make it out to be ;)
I think of it as the point where your insurer or auditors get official leave to refuse you certification for knowingly running insecure software... even if there's no known security bugs
13:36
Perhaps knowingly insecure is the wrong way of putting it. Knowingly unsupported for sure, but purely from a business perspective I'd want to be off that version ASAP on my terms, rather than be forced to drop everything I'm doing and be forced into it by external circumstances.
@MarkR I think making a central place for people to find stuff to work on for PHP 8, to build enthusiasm for it would be more productive than publicity as "there seems to be something of a failure of getting the message out." - there's some people who can just never be reached, no matter how hard you try. People who are 'stuck' on PHP 5.x are there because they/their company have decided that's a better choice for them.
What do you mean finding stuff to work on for PHP?
Currently, if someone says, I want to help PHP internals, where would you point them to, to find something they can work on?
Nowadays? Most likely here.
(sorry, I'm a bit ill and may dissappear in middle of conv.) - even if they turned up here, we're not that great at keeping track of what people are working on.
which is why I'm trying to keep a list at: github.com/Danack/RfcCodex/blob/master/project_coordination.md
13:43
@Danack The place that needs the most help, or the place easiest to start?
as that's a place where people can add stuff easily, and then also link to where the individual pieces of work can be discussed.
@Leigh either. But also a place where someone can see a list and pick somehting that is interesting to them.
bugs.php.net?
Ins't that what the wiki is for?
@MarkR the wiki is a shite experience to edit. Which is why I totally support @brzuchal setting something up that is built directly from a github repo, so that people who don't have php.net accounts can either edit it, or make pull requests, or even just open issues.
@Leigh I'm pretty sure I'd hear that as: b.z19r.com/post/did-you-just-tell-me-to-go-fuck-myself (nsfw)
I cannot stress this enough.... databases
Hmm thought one of those was italics - Ah there we go, single one
13:50
@MarkR we also have a problem on the project of it being a completely opaque process for how anyone can get anything deployed to PHP owned infrastructure. But in this particular case, for text files, a git repo would be fine.
also....I have a cunning plan.
We could avoid needing to host stuff on php.net infrastructure if we could expose the php.net authentication as a service, and then allow other people to use it as a service.
Yeah I've heard mention of that. Are you going to make it?
@Danack master is already exposed(ish)
I plan to. it really doesn't need to be that complicated....
OAuth2?
hahahahha
13:52
3 mins ago, by Danack
@Leigh I'm pretty sure I'd hear that as: http://b.z19r.com/post/did-you-just-tell-me-to-go-fuck-myself (nsfw)
@PeeHaa you mean php-src master?
@Danack The PHP master database (for logins etc)
How's that work, surely PW's are not exposed
"surely"
It just makes a curl call with a super duper secret key afaik
(they aren't though)
13:54
@Danack email ping :)
At least that is how bugs works
I just had a terrible vision of the people DB being world readable and relying on MD5 heh
make http call to master with credentials and key -> get response back
Please tell me it at least requires a server-sent salt o.o
<html>
<head>
 <title>You must log in!</title>
</head>
<body>
<form method="post" action="/login.php">
<input type="hidden" name="save" value="1" />
<table>
 <tr>
  <th align="right">Username:</th>
  <td><input type="text" name="user" value="daverandom" />@php.net
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <th align="right">Password:</th>
  <td><input type="password" name="pw" value="" />
    </td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td></td><td><input type="submit" value="Login" /></td>
 </tr>
</table>
</form>
</body>
</html>
that's the page source in it's entirety
13:57
whats in login.php?
Look for bugs_authenticate
> cvsauth
> cvs
fwiw I started rewriting parts github.com/php/web-bugs/pull/83
Slowly
slowly
slowly
13:59
s l o w l y
Save yourself the heartache. Delete the entire thing and start over.
Sep 20 '17 at 19:47, by Allenph
Working as a programmer makes me afraid to use the internet. I can't believe we got paid for this steaming pile.
@MarkR I would. But it's pretty tiny as is
It's already in a much better state
I just need somebody with commit karma to help me out cc @Kalle
@PeeHaa that defeats the purpose. People should be able to set stuff up and allow authorised PHP people to login to their site (after visiting being taken to php.net to authenticate) without anyone from php.net from creating special tokens for their website.
14:02
1
Which file is bugs_authenticate in?
I think he was probably misremembering the name of cvsauth.php
and forgivably so, tbf
7 mins ago, by PeeHaa
Or more specific https://github.com/php/web-bugs/blob/0ed3f812f80a074c641b50e3a8f11c2e5ce94a82/include/functions.php#L62
...
@Danack ... hurry up mate
bugs_authenticate is couple functions down there
14:06
do you even read bro
me?
1 min ago, by DaveRandom
or referring to this https://github.com/PeeHaa/web-bugs/blob/0ed3f812f80a074c641b50e3a8f11c2e5ce94a82/include/functions.php#L128
For how long do you know me bruv
:P
I don't think I have ever used the word "bro" before, feels awful
Bro, do you even lift?
14:07
@DaveRandom try 'brah' instead.
can I just try wearing a bra?
@Danack Yeah. In that case we will want to set up some oauth thing
@DaveRandom Will you not if we say no?
that ship sailed like 20 years ago anyway
originally the mankini pic was going to be a bra but my gf's were way too small
14:08
hahaha
It worked out for the best though imo
This is the best thing I've seen all day...

# token required since this should only get accessed from .php.net sites
if (!isset($_REQUEST['token']) || md5($_REQUEST['token']) != "73864a7c89d97a13368fc213075036d1") {
exit_forbidden(E_UNKNOWN);
}
yep
ummmm...
It is
14:10
apparently it's quite hard though, claims to have been cracking since 2011
I also started rewriting master a bit, but again I need somebody to help me get my commits in cc @Kalle again :P
does @salathe, god of karma not have teh powah?
So everything is using the same super secret token, which I assume is configured somewhere else.
I bet the raw token is another md5 hash
@DaveRandom He does. But afaik kalle is more interested in it
I tried to get some people to look at me, but obviously nobody cares about infra and I was mostly ignored
14:13
I got a sextortion email last week that had cracked a keypas generated U/Lcase alphanumeric + special chars. Scary how much horsepower criminals are throwing at it.
can't you persuade him, being co-Pi?eters?
I could try it again in a bit and just get karma myself
@MarkR it's how much correct horse battery staple-power that's more relevant
The problem with most php infra projects are simple: 1. It all sucks 2. Somebody tries to improve 3. Same person tries to get feedback and/or move forward 4. Person is ignored everywhere 5.people complain why things are changed :D
I think if we can get auth exposed, there'll be a lot of third party services spring up. Although I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense to just use an integrated login service
14:16
And then there are certain people who want to contribute and throw a fit when it doesn't go how they want:P
@PeeHaa at least we aren't the only ones (see also: debian weak keys)
lnky?
So rather than using people.php.net accounts, roll a database that let's people get a single user ID that can use people, github, gitlab etc
We already kinda have that on the online bugs editor
Needs to be separated out and included in all projects
And probably needs fixing
I know I can get stuff into php's packagist if I want
But in order to be able to use composer you first have to fight certain people and systems
@PeeHaa can't find an article but the tldr is, someone kept getting compiler warnings for debian's openssl, was reading uninitialised memory as a fallback when not enough randomness was available, spent ages mailing lists and stuff saying "anyone got a good reason not to fix this?", eventually got sick of no responses and committed, and debian's key generator only had 767 possible outputs for 18mths
14:20
lol
Who gets in the way of composer? I assume the same people who get in the way of using an actual framework.
That is a glorious one
@MarkR To prevent that my idea is to not use 3rd party packages (agree with it or not, I don't), but at least have our own packages for common things so everything across sites is the same
That (our own packages) sounds like a far too common sense idea.
It's mostly the fact that:
- yeah could be a good idea, but needs discussion
- pretty much impossible to get discussion sometimes
@MarkR :P
Basically it tends to end up in a thing like this
Somebody comments and then ignores again
Not want to single out a specific person here, but that's basically the flow
@PeeHaa I don't see any PR from you for master... am I missing something?
14:25
@PeeHaa I've only been working on open source for a few months and I find the politics / slowness challenging.
@salathe I have some local changes, but then I decided to first focus on a single project. Which ended up being bugs
But I am kinda stuck on bugs too as we speak @salathe
@MarkR You just spend time on the wrong projects :D
I don't think it needs consensus. When something is unmaintained, some people will bitch about new directions but ultimately those willing to do the work will win out over those standing totally still.
@ircmaxell If only that was how it works right now :(
fwiw I totally agree with you and I was hoping that was exactly how it would go
I guess I need somebody "in power" to announce I will be working on it and if you have something against it speak up now or forever hold your peace
If the batton is dropped, and someone runs past, picks it up and keeps going, the person who dropped it doesn't get to sit at the side and complain and throw insults. The race must go on.
cmb
cmb
@PeeHaa, where are the template vars escaped?
@PeeHaa I don't think you need that explicitly. You need one person "in power" to be bought into it, and you can drive the rest just by showing up (like was done with the redesign of docs)
@ircmaxell I know peter (the other one) tried that I failed
He parted ways in the wrongest way possible imo, but I see where his frustration was coming from
Which was also the only response I got on infra :P news-web.php.net/php.webmaster/28074
@PeeHaa Sorry I was out, what did you want me to have a look at?
14:37
Youch.
cmb
cmb
@PeeHaa, thanks! (must have been blind)
@Kalle I know you have some ideas about php's infra (and for right now bugs in specific). Can we somehow have a quick meet once you have a couple minutes so we can talk it through and get me working on it again and get me either karma or help be commit stuff
Maybe also cc @cmb
@cmb np
The tl;dr is that I do want to work on it. And I have been working on it. But it is stalled imo outside of where I can fix it
Get composer working on master and i'll happily join in on working up some auth stuff
cmb
cmb
@PeeHaa, actually I'm surprised that you don't have web-bugs karma. That should be changed.
@PeeHaa I'm perfectly fine with most things that goes into it. I cannot grant karma but I can vouch for you getting web/* karma if anyone has questions to the request
14:41
At this point, I think I'm probably more valuable to internals working in PHP than C until I've got further with my learning.
@PeeHaa Maybe @salathe can grant you web karma
\o/
any particularly good recommendations on job queues? We're using Qless right now, and it works, but it's not the most active project in the word - there's a feature we've discussed internally (and I'll probably end up having to patch into Qless) that the upstream project have an open issue about from 7 god damn years ago.
@Stephen Any particular aversion of the mainstream?
cmb
cmb
@MarkR, yup, go for it. The php.net Websites need some love. :)
14:49
RabbitMQ, perhaps?
Or maybe Kafka, depending on your usecase?
cmb
cmb
One step might be to put petk's mini framework into a composer package (it is used in several php.net projects). /cc @PeeHaa
I'll pull them down and take a look. If I do them I'll want to use all the tools available mind. No worse feeling than being unproductive because hands are tied =\
cmb
cmb
Could be an interesting experience rolling a own little php.net framework. :)
@MadaraUchiha ... mainstream?
@Stephen The "obvious" solutions
14:51
@cmb That could be interesting indeed
RabbitMQ is pretty mainstream, I think, when talking about job queues
@cmb Then releasing it on <insert social coding platform of choice>, getting 1M "stars", and becoming The Official PHP Frameworkâ„¢ that all people must use!
@cmb Yes, that is something I was discussion with him before he departed
@salathe lol
Maybe we finally have a way to monetize php \o/
@MadaraUchiha my understanding is that RMQ (like most of the *MQ family) is more of a message queue, than a job queue.
@salathe well pear xd
cmb
cmb
14:53
@salathe, yes, we should write the framework in C, and bundle it with the core. ;)
Oh, hold on, then I have read the question wrong, apologies.
so to clarify the question
Can you define "job queue" more precisely?
or to answer your Q about 'mainstream'
Gearman would be a possible alternative
Any PHP framework should include as many short open tags, backticks, loose type juggling and undeclared variables as possible
14:54
@Kalle Component libraries are sooo old, we've cycled back around to the Monolithic Framework again, right? :)
@cmb Didn't xichen do that with YAF?
cmb
cmb
@Kalle, yes (I think). And there's also Phalcon.
@salathe if thats the case, I might as well dust some of the code from the ClanTemplates era off the shelf and put back into action!
@MadaraUchiha add a job to a queue, potentially scheduled for a future date, potentially recurring, and know that it will be picked up by some worker, and know that the job will be re-queued if a worker 'drops' it (i.e. crashed, failed to mark as completed, etc)
like I said I think Gearman does most of that, but it's a pretty craptacular HA scenario as I understand it.
@Stephen Both companies I have worked for so far have made an implementation of this concept of their own
The "Job Scheduler"
14:57
Same. I shove it in a database.
I just managed to get the client off of the most abysmal DB based job queue for one piece of OOB processing.
@cmb :P
Like I said, Qless actually works reasonably well - and it's reasonably language agnostic (I believe even a shell wrapper could be written, calling to redis-cli). It just feels like there must be some other project for this that im missing.
That article seems like it could be sumarised by "use proper indexes"
@MarkR Given that Percona literally make their money selling RDBMS support services, and they're the ones arguing against using it for a job queue, I tend to trust their views.
15:09
Well they're persisting the jobs somehow... so it's still going in a database.
although the idea of doing a limit 1 update is clever
@MarkR the advice does specifically say
> Use a real queueing system, such as Resque, ActiveMQ, RabbitMQ, or Gearman. Be careful, however, that you don’t enable persistence to a database and choose to use MySQL for that. Depending on the queue system, that can just reintroduce the problem in a generic way that’s even less optimal. Some queue systems use all of the database worst practices I enumerated above.
I didn't specify MySQL when I said shove it in a DB :-)
@MarkR right but you also didn't specify "shove it in a DB that has notify"
I cheat tbh, I use MySQL and a separate Redis queue to act as my main notifier.
and honestly if my choices for an otherwise mysql project are, run redis and some Lua, or run Postgres and implement my own faux queue on top of it, I think im gonna take Redis.
15:18
But considering all my jobs end up needing to return their information to the DB anyway, it made a lot more sense to just put it in there in the first place
@MarkR wait.. so you store the job in mysql? or the thing the job is about, and then redis has {"do":"thing", "objectID":"123..", "enableSnuffling":true} ?
I store the job status, it's parameters, output etc, and then I add a message to Redis which contains the row identifier to tell a particular worker to go grab it.
Then the workers can just sit waiting on a blocking notification from redis
I see.. how do you handle workers crashing? do you have a sentinel-like process that grabs jobs with status=in-progress (or whatever) for too long, and re-sets them to 'pending' (so they get picked up again)
Yeah, when a worker comes online it checks for anything its ID claimed as in-progress and either re-tries them or marks them as failed, depending on configuration.
@MarkR oh so it's up to the worker to re-claim it's own previous jobs?
15:27
That's right.
is worker in this instance a piece of code (i.e. let's say a class) or process running on a machine?
It's a process.
ok, well either way no compelling existing suggestions, so I guess it's a-forking-i-shall-go.
@Stephen insert obligatory mention of supervisord here: github.com/Danack/example/blob/master/readme_supervisord.md
(and apologies for that text apparently making not that much sense by itself, but the example files will be clearer.)
I just let Kubernetes manage my workers xD
15:37
If you're setup to use it then that's fine....but I like hosting stuff on a nice little $10 a month box....
I use a few background jobs on my private server for sure, but for the enterprise stuff, if a worker or background task goes down due to say a piece of hardware being restarted, or even a datacenter going down, it pops up 30 seconds later in a different availability zone
@Danack im not really sure how that helps the specific case? restarting a worker proc isnt really the hard part. It's ensuring that the job in <insert shared storage medium> which everyone else thinks is "in progress" doesn't just stay that way forever..
don't get me wrong - I appreciate the input.
I had an issue a couple of years back, we have a back end task which invokes a powerpoint converter to convert ppt files to JPGs and PDFs, and it occasionally kept locking up and the task kept freezing. After digging into it we found that if the PPT file was password protected, or if powerpoint.exe crashed, a modal dialog box would appear preventing the task from ever completing.

Ended up putting another task on the same server which read the start time from the main task, and killing it after a few minutes like a watchdog
I just think that's solving a different part of the problem - it seems more akin to how our job queue worker procs are managed by systemd
@MarkR another internally built 'job scheduler'?
Same one
15:45
I see
im actually quite surprised - ruby has resque, python has celery - quite commonly used libraries for handling this problem, I was certain there must be something that's commonly used in php land.
I actually feel better about the direction we took now
RabbitMQ seems popular, but it carries a lot of extra complexity IMO
Should a company charge its customers for technical support within their app?
Yes
You either pay for it as part of the price of the app, or you pay for it separately. Other than that, you get no support
@MarkR my understanding is its focussed on sending messages - not queuing jobs.
15:52
@SalOrozco can you expand the context a little. what kind of 'app'? is it offered as a service, or as licensed software to install? is it paid for or free? open source?
@Stephen SaaS and it's paid.
Construction management.
I'd expect some kind of base support
But paid for higher / more rapid
@MarkR interesting.. seems like a possible solution, but its a building block rather than a complete solution..
@SalOrozco I'd expect some form of support, usually better (in terms of responsiveness, points of contact) the more you pay
@salathe seems that way ;)
ok, next up, because this is gonna be a PITA to debug otherwise. Anyone using vagrant + VirtualBox with the vagrant-hostmanger plugin, on Windows (and yes I know that is an unholy marriage of Oracle and Microsoft, I didn't choose either one)
16:05
@MarkR @Stephen should the rate be based on the industry they are in?
Can be.
It's not a matter of should it or shouldn't it, all depends on what they're offering and what the cost of them not offering it is
It's goverment funded projects.
Then they're definitely going to overcharge you
... I downloaded a windows 'tester' VM today and so far every time I turn it on or off, it's "working on updates"
-_- I kinda hate ruby, or probably just myself. spent 3 hours trying to do a nested loop updating hashes
16:13
@Stephen allegedly, the thing to do is turn it on, wait for the updates to happen, then take a snapshot of it.
@Danack yeah I don't intend to keep this thing around - I only need it specifically to test vagrant functionality under windows (apparently when I convinced the client to use vagrant for dev environments that implicitly meant I would be providing support for all developers on the team, present and future)
Is Vagrant any good nowadays? I gave up after trying to use it for a week
... it's better than managing a VM by hand?
its reproducible, across almost any desktop OS
@MarkR happy user of vagrant for about 6 years now
heck, my foray into contributions to PHP (small as they are) have involved building php inside a vagrant vm.
16:21
A fair few of the other guys in the company I'm working for at the moment use it
To me it's much more adaptable than the 'common' alternative people suggest, which is Docker.
Vagrant can use docker as a provider if you wish
adaptable in what way? (I use docker)
but it can also use any number of other things to provide the underlying 'machine'
Adaptable in the sense that it's not tied to e.g. linux kernel features
it's a high(ish) level abstraction over provisioning an environment
hmm fairy nuff.
I started working using Docker for Windows about a year ago, I'm loving it.
ugh what's the PS equivalent of cat. or less. or anything to view a text file?
16:32
Get-Contents
so:

Get-Content -Path <Filename>
eh I went the old fashioned way
notepad.exe filename?
cmb
cmb
type, more
Isn't type just an alias for get-contents
cmb
cmb
16:51
I'm rarely using Powershell :)
 
1 hour later…
18:03
What do you people think about betting on docker now with that financial problems? Will google (or someone else) just buy it?
Google would never let docker go under
Google is betting too much money on it with Kubernetes
and while there's other runtimes available which do the same thing, they're not as well tooled IMO
That were my thoughts too. + docker cant cost that much. Kubernetes is the big player not docker.
Well docker swarm got nuked from orbit by kubernetes
Im using swarm today. But mostly because of missing support from our admins. Swarm is ok to use
but currently its not completely in production.
Such is the way of things. You make the base tech then get beat to making money off it by people who build on top
18:17
Yes Sad but google could pay them off. Would be pennies on the right point of time. Docker had no chance why should people buy that free stuff
i dont think kubernetes makes money for its good performance as software itself.
Not sure what you mean
You cant sell kubernetes either
Right, sell it as a service
but googles side business are paying for it
PaaS
18:19
yes but on global cloud scale
that was never reachable for docker inc
Yup.
18:45
@Leigh you should have mail now
Are there books on software estimation.
@SalOrozco tons of it.
@MarkR I don't think that's they are related. The OCI initiative separates the docker runtime from the container spec. The Company Docker has little to do with Kubernetes today, and isn't really needed moving forward
@gordon what books do you recommend?
@SalOrozco for educational purpose all of them. for practical purpose, do yourself a favor and just run monte carlo simulations
18:48
lolol
@ircmaxell is that disagreement? cant tell from just lolol :)
@Gordon not a disagreement, a "that hits too close to home that it hurts a bit"
@ircmaxell :)
@ircmaxell I just googled it for a bit and it isnt clear to me. Is it for something like Dockerfile?
Or a replacement?
@user3655829 It's a set of specifications for how containers are defined, compiled, and executed. It basically means that you don't need Docker's specific runtime to run Docker images.
18:54
ahh. Ok. Im ok with that. Sounds good
 
1 hour later…
20:02
Teresko made me aware of this a moment ago- not sure if it has been discussed here already or not so just mentioning: cellio.dreamwidth.org/2019/10/02/stack-overflow-purge.html
20:28
Pretty significant uproar occurring. judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/…
@StatikStasis lol
@MadaraUchiha You heard anything about this through the moderator-vine?
That was wonderfully fashionably late of you.
@StatikStasis About 30 moderators resigned over this
The entire network is at an uproar for the past 2 weeks
SE has already posted 2 formal apologies, one of which was downvoted to oblivion
LOL!
@MadaraUchiha Story of my life, day late and a dollar short.
@StatikStasis Second mouse gets the cheese, and all that :)
20:31
Been in strategic planning meetings for several weeks and have missed a lot.
=D
You had me worried there for a moment, I thought it was something new and went "oh no... what now?"
@MadaraUchiha Are they going to reinstate Monica Cellio?
Sorry for the increased blood pressure.
@StatikStasis Unclear, I predict no.
That's a shame.
But I have been known to make mistakes in the past.
20:35
Do you guys get paid for being moderators?
@SalOrozco Moderators (elected through the community election process) are volunteers, we don't get paid.
For the love of the game.
 
1 hour later…
21:48
@beberlei What's the state of this? github.com/tideways/opentracing-php
@LeviMorrison prototype, dead
Death by object and method call overhead, by chance?
no, it was a sugestion for the php implementation of OT interfaces / base implemetntation,

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