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00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

18:06
@StatikStasis Yep because money is the most important thing.
Btw why aren't you a small square? You were supposed to be a small square.
My wife has been calling me a big square our whole marriage. Along with other people.
18:20
evenin
@Jimbo small square?
@PeeHaa nop ;-)
19:24
I have a new cryptogram puzzle from work, but it's been like three months since I solved one, trying to remember the tricks I learned from the first time. Main things I remember are figuring out the two-three letter words first and pay attention to patterns in letters.
@NikiC I'm getting /home/kelunik/GitHub/php/php-src/Zend/zend_hash.c(132) : Freeing 0x0000000011139900 (320 bytes), script=/home/kelunik/GitHub/amphp/artax/examples/1-get-request.php, how can I find the source?
19:56
took me roughly 30 minutes, solved it already, lol
20:16
@kelunik I'd start with a run through valgrind
Wes
Wes
i'm getting super anxious again
took me 20 minutes to write one sentence, and i still don't like it
@NikiC As the debug build frees the memory there, it doesn't show up I guess? How do I disable the freeing?
@Wes ?
@kelunik You need to set the USE_ZEND_ALLOC=0 env var
Wes
Wes
@Tiffany i don't know why i'm trying to write in english
20:29
need help?
is page routing ever handled in a controller?
@Wes Had you not told me you had issues with writing in English I never would have known.
What exactly are you writing?
Wes
Wes
@StatikStasis sometimes i write at a 1 word per minute rate. writing a paper about css
You'll only get better.
words are hard
English is hard...
I love when I go to Dominican Republic. I speak Spanish like a 3 year old- but I can read anything in Spanish. The vowels always sound the same... there is consistency... it's great.
Wes
Wes
20:35
i hate developing expectations. everything works so much better when i have none
@Wes the cryptogram I solved earlier kind of applies: "True mastery transcends any particular art. It stems from mastery of oneself - the ability developed through self-discipline. To be calm, fully aware, and completely in tune with oneself and the surroundings. Then and only then can a person know himself."
Expect the best, plan for the worst.
Wes
Wes
@Tiffany i wish i had the mastery to understand this
> to stop something from happening, spreading, or developing
stem the tide/flow/flood of something
@Wes stems in this context is "comes from" as in plant grows from a stem
Wes
Wes
now makes sense
20:45
@Tiffany Becoming a Buddhist, are we?
:P
@mega6382 I like some of the philosophies
20:59
Heading home. Later.
21:23
@Tiffany Yeah, they really do focus a lot on inner self, and whatnot.
21:36
I slept for ~18 of the last 24 hrs
not lovin it
@Wes the equivalent latin root is stilus, but English also acquired a weird sort of negated verb usage form the idea that that you cut something off to stop it growing
Maybe from cutting flowers and having stems?
I dunno
There are a few cases where words can mean either affirmative or negative, but it depends on context.
And I can't think of an example, my brain is flipping me off at this point
Ftr I looked that up a few days ago to settle a debate about whether "stylus" for record players has the same origin as "stilo" for pen, I'm not in the habit of memorizing etymological origins of obscure words :-P
@Tiffany verbs derived from nouns are frequently heavily colloquial anyway, language is basically chaos.
Wes
Wes
21:56
i'm still not sure what stem means.. :B
If you take a room with a random sample of 5 brits in, there's a reasonable probability that no two of them will share the same set of names for the 3 main meals of the day, and at least one of them will consider the basic premise that there are "3 main meals in a day" to be incorrect
Wes
Wes
i thought italian was abstract af with words but english is probably worse (darmok and jalad at tanagra)
@Wes literally the thing bit that connects e.g. an apple or a cherry to the branch it grows on, the context that it was used before is basically the same as the verb "branch"
"originate" is a more unambiguous equivalent
@Wes English is the linguistic equivalent of the beast at tanagra
@DaveRandom it still feels weird, after many, many years, asking for a "supper" at the chippy for tea
Wes
Wes
@DaveRandom thanks
22:00
@salathe ah yeh that's very scottish
I've never met anyone who considers "dinner" to be the first meal of the day, but I bet there's someone somewhere
@salathe I just realized that this wouldn't be accurate since JavaScript is searched for by the terms "Javascript" and "JS", whereas PHP is only referred to as "PHP"
and "tea" is an absolute minefield
@Alesana You just realised... now?
Yup haha
I feel stupid
Wes
Wes
stemma in italian means "sigil", like of a noble house. stemma also means heritage, in the form of a noble family genealogical tree
22:04
@DaveRandom related youtube.com/watch?v=0uODSNjYq_Q (not Rebecca)
@Wes that's totally unrelated though, English "stem" has germanic roots (according to google, anyway)
Damnit and here I was thinking PHP was more widely used than JS
Wes
Wes
in unrelated news, what our new government did so far:
- ensure all government buildings (schools etc) expose a catholic religion cross
- consider reverting the law that disallows people from starting new fascist parties
- make vaccines non mandatory
that's months of hard work
22:20
@Wes I just think of it (in most cases) as stem = comes from. Jerry's abuse of his children stems from an alcohol problem and his childhood. Mark's love for PHP stems from some of the similar syntax he learned in C++ and his hate for working with embedded systems.
Stems are also the part connecting the base of a flower or plant and its bud.
You could try "The hate many users in room11 have for Laravel stems from...?" Why do they hate it?
The hate for Laravel is a product of... is another way of saying something "comes from" something.
@salathe although it's not directly related, Chris Morris is the master of trickery that leverages the cognitive disconnect between written and spoken language (the brass eye "cake" being a prime example), but this is my absolute favourite youtube.com/…
Dave's love for tea stems from the absence of good, strong coffee in his life.
@Alesana if you think about it for a second that couldn't possibly be true - there are plenty of competing server-side technologies, but there's no competition for JS, there is no alternative client side scripting language, other than things that transpile to JS. That's not going to be true for much longer though once it becomes viable to only ship wasm, the next few years might see that share diminish a bit
although also I'm not keep on those "technology market share" stats anyway, there are so many metrics you can use that you can basically make it say whatever you want
@Wes I'm sorry to hear about that. What I like to think is that the world is changing so fast that the people left behind all gather together and try to go backwards.. but it can't last that long anyways
pathinfo's $options should accept a bitmask value – #76702
22:33
One of the less common uses, at least here, is using stem for meaning stop or reduce. Mainly only time I use it is when talking about stopping bleeding.
@DaveRandom Yeah I don't know why I didn't even think of that. I mean, sure PHP can be used as a regular non-web programming language, but it's almost always a web backend language
Wes
Wes
at least we've seen the rise of italian banksy
here's our prime minister
and all this is facebook's fault, obvs
@Alesana people don't really use PHP to write non-web stuff, although that also might change one day, it's certainly not a completely universally stupid thing to do
@DaveRandom Ah I knew PHP was created with web in mind but I thought there were some odd cases where it was used to do other things.
If anything, the thing that drew me to PHP so much was the community. The JavaScript community is comparable to the fanbase of Rick and Morty. (mainly joking, no offense to JS users here :P)
@StatikStasis I just don't like it as much as tea. I've had plenty of "no you've just had bad coffee, try this" and nothing has persuaded me. I think it's more that the flavour of coffee is too strong, if anything.
22:39
@Alesana it can be used for command line stuff
and I don't want all that caffeine either, decaf just isn't as good
@DaveRandom I've heard of "tea" being used for I guess dinner? in the UK, but it never really sunk in until I watched a bunch of old Doctor Who on twitch
Maybe it's a Londoner thing?
@Alesana I mean if your web app is written in PHP then probably your cron scripts are written in PHP as well, and I know people do use it for other things, daemons etc, but I suspect those are generally down to keeping it in languages that all your developers understand rather than it being technically the best choice
Could you imagine using php on an embedded system o.O
@DaveRandom and then there's PHPPHP
@DaveRandom I can understand doing that, but in that scenario that team is already doing web development using PHP as a back end language - so those cases generally wouldn't add to the amount of PHP users.
22:43
sure, you can do basically anything in PHP (including GUI applications), it's just not necessarily the best choice
sometimes the properties of PHP that make it so good at the web become disadvantages in other scenarios
@DaveRandom I understand I was just picking.
@DaveRandom I love caffeine.
A speaker at a conference I went to earlier this year used php to build some internal and external web apps specifically to be integrated into his university's version of the vendor mobile app and used php-cas for auth on the internal web apps
Think I am going to venture out with the family for some food.
And he used php so it'd be cross-platform
e.g. it's not that great at computationally expensive applications, the abstractions that make it very portable and very good at dealing with stringly typed data are also performance killers when you don't need those properties
22:47
He wouldn't have to extend the Android version and the iOS version
I thought that was pretty neat
and the shared-nothing architecture that's ideal for handling web requests means that it's not the best choice when you need CPU-bound multitasking
@Tiffany So he made a PHP engine on mobile devices or the application was basically a web browser that got content from his PHP server?
Shared-nothing?
memory isolation, in a nutshell, the processing of one request is not dependent on the state of the processing of any other concurrent request
@Alesana he hosted the applications on a web server owned by the university, but I believe they were hosted on a different server than their public site
Plus the ERP is backed by Oracle database, which can be connected to through the ODBC driver
So he could pull all these neat little things and integrate it into the app
22:53
@Alesana afaict that's how the majority of apps work, at least to some extent
@DaveRandom I really haven't gotten into many other programming languages, but in other programming langueges, two requests can interact with each other without inputting their state into a DB?
@DaveRandom I see, I think. Still feeling "shit for brains," which I suspect will be the same until I sleep
I really need to tinker more with languages... blah
So much to do, and so little time
@Alesana it depends how the web server is interacting with python - same with PHP. The trick that PHP had up it's sleeve in the long long ago is thread-level isolation that enabled it to wired into apache via a module, with a tight integration that was/is more efficient and more powerful than cgi, but taking care of all the tricky multi-threading concerns so the programmer can pretend they aren't there
I just wish my work allowed me to grow as a developer in any language lol
however fpm uses a multi=process concurrency model and a cgi interface, which eliminates the thread safety problems in a different way
but there are always trade offs
23:01
Ah I see, I suppose that makes sense. Not having dealt with non-web programming - now that I think of it - I don't even know how other languages would interact with a db/other users.
I'm not super familiar with what's available at that bridge layer for python, but I assume it will be generally done as fcgi
So there would still be some server similar to apache for Python?
python has a different threading model to PHP, I'm not sure how that's managed
in general, multi-threading at the app level on the server side of a web app is likely to do more harm that good, though
MYSQLI_OPT_READ_TIMEOUT cannot be changed after connection established – #76703
multi-threading is good for CPU-bound computationally expensive work, if you are doing that in the process of generating a web page then you are probably doing it wrong...
@Jeeves this person is also doing it wrong
23:04
Right - I can't really see a reason to have multiple threads to generate a webpage. Perhaps if you're using PHP to make heavy changes to a database or a system in general multiple threads would be useful
@Alesana that's probably I/O bound though, at least from PHP's PoV
i.e. you ask the db to do something and you just wait for a response
Ah, or run a third party program and wait for a response
If it were making heavy changes to something on the computer (can't think of any example)
It's probably better implemented using a background job queue and some flavour of push to notify the client of completion, though
you don't want a web request that's just hanging about waiting for the response
you start the work, tell the client you've started the work, and notify response via push or let the client poll for it
polling sucks though
Yeah that would make sense.. I guess even when a website is updating something lengthy with a progress bar PHP has gotten a response and continues to get responses about the progress
My CMS' backend is so goddamn slow for me when I have it load the list of pages or save a change to a page. I'm betting it has something to do with I/O, and possibly the ridiculous amount of entries in a few tables. It's pretty bad when I'm sitting for 20-30 seconds waiting on the server to save my changes to the database -_-
23:12
Now that I'm thinking about other languages though, how do non-web applications communicate with a central server. Are there servers similar to Apache that process requests for C++ (for example), or is it mostly just updating a database?
I guess that one is easily googleable
You can look at weblogic for example
Or tomcat
Tomcat is for web applications though right?
Yeah but languages like Java use it (I think)
Ah I see
I need to study more haha
A lot of this stuff I didn't know before working my current job, it was through exposure
23:16
Yeah that's why I need a new job
Right now I am trying modifying the stupidest plugin for a wordpress site that has already been messed up beyond belief. If I'm learning anything I am learning how to refrain from pulling out my hair.
But I'm basically at a point where learning new things is limited to devops at work, or programming through this chat.
@Alesana you saw the router and controller I'm dealing with :P
Yeah.. at least you're working with a router and controller like applications should :P
What version of PHP are you working on?
@Alesana I suspect if you dig into the things you encounter that do this, you will find that most of them establish a websocket as part of the actions that instruct the server to start the process, generally with a fallback to some sort of SSE/polling, there's things like socket.io which abstract all that stuff away, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the people who've implemented that sort of thing don't actually know how it works
Oh, @Alesana, have you ever been interested in contributing to open source?
23:21
@DaveRandom That would make sense actually
@Tiffany Actually, yeah! The past couple days I started really thinking about it.. I think it would be really beneficial. I have concerns on how much I could really contribute, though.
I have started going to programming meetups too
@Alesana check out Code Triage
Oh this actually looks really cool
Yeah, I came across it, can't remember where, but seems like a handy way to start getting involved with open source
Do the repos team up with Code Triage because they need extra help, or is it an interface to get notifications about open source projects?
I think the repos add their project to it as available
23:25
Ah cool!
Cause if you look at the php options, some of them are framework based :/
See for example, Symfony comes up first. I don't think I am advanced enough to make useful contributions to Symfony
Doesn't hurt to look though!
Some projects will have like "good first..." some word I can't remember now... but basically tags for newbies
True. Truth is I would love to contribute to the majority of these projects.
I was thinking attempt or try, but those aren't the right words
23:29
@Alesana to further complicate this somewhat though... HTTP/2 changes the rules a bit, specifically request pipelines with respone interleaving basically eliminates the problem that websockets were invented to solve, and makes it more reasonable that you might have some valid use case for userland thread management... spawning concurrent subroutines that are tasked with retrieving multiple resources is a thing that I can imagine being not-totally-stupid
it also means that the "don't respond until the job is done" model is more reasonable, although I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to ACK the initial request asap tbh
the key point, though, is that HTTP/2 eliminates the problem of tying up a TCP connection waiting for a response in that scenario
@DaveRandom I guess that goes back to why loading many resources simultaneously instead of grouping them all together makes sense with HTTP2
@Tiffany Looking at it there are a lot of repos I think I could contribute to
@Alesana :)
Probably after a little bit of studying though
Pfffft who needs studying
Overrated
Speaking of contributing to repositories.. I did try to do that once
23:37
@Alesana it's always been a bit of a guessing game tbh, my opinion-but-basically-fact is that you should spend less time worrying about how you bundle your resources and more time worrying about 1) eliminating dead code/unused resource references 2) learning about caching and using it properly
with a not-always-applicable 3) stop fucking pointlessly serving static resources through PHP wrappers
people do that so much for no reason
And I think that's my cue to gtf to bed... I'm nearing troll-level responses
Goodnight all
@Tiffany \o Night
@DaveRandom What do you mean by that?
@Alesana function requireSSL() { ssl_required(); }
Ahhhh fucking mobile
I'd be willing to bet, say, £100 that I could cut page load times in half (probably a lot more) for basically any wp site if you give me 2-3hrs
@DaveRandom So I am actually working on cutting load speed times on WP with my current job
23:40
@Alesana basically any script that has readfile() in it
Ah, yeah that doesn't make much sense. Does WP do that though?
some things do, some don't
So the main things I do on Wordpress is caching, deferring JS/CSS, removing unused css in the cached css files, inlining critical CSS, and limiting the use of unnecessary JS.
Also, if using google webfonts to defer those
I don't know if I'm missing anything?
typically it's rooted either in dynamically generated elements of a script or stylesheet (generally there should be no reason to do this), or putting content resources behind an auth layer, where the solution has no magic hammer but there are plenty of choices
@DaveRandom I made an application where the user could create their own widget and style it how they please. They would put the background red, the text green, etc... through a simple UI. In that case, I dynamically generated the CSS. Should I have actually modified the CSS file each time they made a change instead?
23:47
@Alesana it depends on who made the site. Web devs are typically not too bad at a reasonable degree of optimisation, but joe public who just learned enough HTML to make a blog, and "designers" are both particularly prone to using insane image resources - often wildly excessive resolutions, and often generated by photoshop etc, resulting in case where you can cut the load time in half simply by resizing them to sane res and throwing them through tinypng
Ah yes, that's another thing that I do is download all of the images, run them through imagemin, then reupload them
Also I've encountered houses of cards built on mod_rewrite that can be rewritten in 3 lines of PHP
always build your apps so they work when AllowOverride None (i.e. .htaccess does not exist) and always set AllowOverride None
Some of the wordpress sites we have are just built with such infrastructure and bad themes that it's near impossible to get the load speed under 6 seconds
and try to avoid url rewriting at the web server level
Wait don't you use .htaccess to route all your requests through index.php?
Or I guess that would be in the apache configuration
23:54
yeh you should do it at the vhost level
I'm not sure if apache has a decent equivalent to try_files $uri @php; yet
I work on a lot of websites that use shared hosting
Bleh
you may have to use RewriteCond -f or whatever it is
but in that case just do RewriteRule .* /index.php [END]
Yeah that's what my .htaccess for most of the applications I've made myself
Apache rules. Bleh. Glad I don't do that sort of thing anymore.
and always use [END] instead or [L], you basically never want [L]
23:57
Problem is when I'm maintaining other people's applications that are horribly made, I don't get much room for decision making
@DaveRandom Why is that?
@Alesana have you met our lord and saviour nginx?
@DaveRandom :O You turned me onto Nginx
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