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19:00
i always does that.
@PeeHaa lol
This is my page that I am working on fixing right now My first issue is that between "EDIT DESTINATION FROM:" and "(114)" it is supposed to show the trip name which is "Stackoverflow PHP Chat Test Trip"
You can see the code in this pastebin
I can't tell whats going wrong...
@JoeWatkins much of it are the "enterprise features" that they are adding to differentiate themselves (system concerns that have no business in an application, yet alone in a framework)
@JoeWatkins It could be but I am not worried about that right now
19:04
@PeeHaa I mostly felt disgust
@benlevywebdesign you just posted vulnerable code in a chat room, I'm willing to bet more than one person is already trying to delete things and cause chaos ...
Anonymous
@PeeHaa What a bunch of dicks.
@ircmaxell I thought it must be something specific about laravel ...
@Joe This is just an old school project, nothing that serious but, I'll fix it later. I am trying to work out some other issues first.
because in the end, whether you use a framework or not, what you end up with does resemble a framework, it's even arguable that it should ... I could be showing ignorance, or being a bit naive, or be wrong ...
19:09
@Joe My issues are probably pretty simple. I'm probably not calling out the right info at the right time from my db or something like that...
oh dude, don't do that ... I can't look past glaring problems, sorry ... maybe someone else will ...
@Danack maybe you can find my stupid mistake?
please don't ping people at random. kthnx
user924016
@benlevywebdesign I can not see the declation of $tripinfoid or $tripname
@Ronni in my pastebin?
user924016
19:14
yes where is $tripinfoid = or $tripname = .. ?
crank up error reporting and php will tell you what wrong instead of having to ping random people.
@ScottArciszewski (or anyone else) - do you know of any tools that allow you check for the incorrect type of escaping in a template engine? e.g. if the template is supposed to have:
<a href='{$foo | html_attribute_escape}'>
but instead accidentally has:
<a href='{$userInput_url | html_escape}'>
then some stuff shouldn't be allowed inside http atttributes will be able to slip through.
Anonymous
@tereško Is there anything wrong with a god class, if it is only provides until functions? As in, if its importance is very limited.
not off the top of my head no
I would say grep, but that might not be useful either :\
might miss weird cases
@samayo why make it a class... why not just functions
19:17
I'm sending mail via Amazon SES -- does anyone here have experience with DKIM and is it ideal for me to verify DKIM to send mail?
@Ronni Check my pastebin again(refresh). My copy/paste didn't copy the correct code. It should be there now
@JoeWatkins there are plenty of other things
user924016
@benlevywebdesign $tripname is still undefined
@samaYo SRP, which is like the first commandment ...
Anonymous
@JoeWatkins This has nothing to do with SRP as much as you think.
user924016
19:20
@samaYo where did the example go? (removed)
okay ... I thought you said god class ...
In object-oriented programming, a god object is an object that knows too much or does too much. The god object is an example of an anti-pattern. The basic idea behind programming is that a big problem is separated into several smaller problems (a divide and conquer strategy) and solutions are created for each of them. Once the small problems have been solved, the big problem as a whole has been solved. Therefore an object need only know everything about itself. Likewise, there is only one set of problems an object needs to solve: its own. A program that employs a god object does not follow this...
@samayo you could also require the functions right under the require autoload.php
Anonymous
@JoeWatkins It is a god class, but not in the sense it has any importance, other than making things pretty => syntactic sugar
@Ronni oh, hmm let me check...
@samayo or you could define the functions in the same file as your Application
19:22
@samaYo that's a strange way of looking at it ... rules are there for a reason, there isn't, in my opinion, a magical set of circumstances that should allow you to break the rules ...
I'm not going to argue with you about it however, it's been a long day ...
Anonymous
@Orangepill I don't think that would work though.
@samayo why wouldn't it.
@ircmaxell /me awaits blogpost(s)
/me awaits a magic tool to give me more hours in a day
Anonymous
@Orangepill Which functions would you load? There are Util functions, and functions defined inside router, session, request ...
19:25
the only reason I manage to squeeze out a blog post at Paragon once a week
is that I have no social life outside of my apartment
@ircmaxell Wait, you didn't receive a time turner?
@ScottArciszewski you in contact with that defuse guy by any chance?
What should be "iterable" and how? Iterators define themselves; arrays iterate keys mapped to values; strings iterate indices mapped to chars; ... what else?
The whole object property name to value mapping is kinda... wonky.
19:26
(I meant AFK social life too)
I've been bugging him to look at my PR for his encryption lib
@samaYo just the util functions... everything else would be context specific so they should exist as class methods.
@Ronni Do you mind helping me out for a little bit?
user924016
no, dont mind helping you, how can I help you?
@NikiC crap, is that what that box was?
@ScottArciszewski Yeah that's what it is about. I want the license to be clear :-)
19:27
he said he's going to set some time aside for it on Friday
@ircmaxell And here you are using it as a doorstop.
@ircmaxell @NikiC is here, ask him ;)
Also, use python: import continuum
causality.violate()
19:32
it's static, we can't test it ...
@DanLugg that package suffered a BC break by a future update
time travel would open a lot of doors for asynchronous code.
19:52
@ircmaxell I just came back from Laracon and someone pointed me towards an ongoing dispute between you and Taylor. I gave my opinions fully. You came and made a comment and then no follow up. So, to me, there was no point in your comment.
@ircmaxell I was talking about my attempts at keeping my application "pure" by layering out the database/persistence interactions behind a repository "collection-like" interface. But there were areas where Laravel (ie. Cashier) will use the ORM to do things that are against my DDD/CQRS approach. Hence, impurity.
I'm not saying there is "one approach that rules them all" or that DDD is the only way to go. I'm saying that I have a consistent philosophy/approach for my app and I'm faced with breaking that consistency to add in some functionality from a framework (Laravel) or roll my own (or maybe look in github for solution that doesn't use an ORM)
I could in fact use the ORM behind those repository methods, sure. But that's not breaking any "purity". The purity breaks when I add in Cashier, which sprinkles ORM calls throughout. You've been in here before and made a comment and never followed through with explanation. That's my only critique. Otherwise, I'd say you do a lot for the php community, and I greatly respect that.
Anonymous
my eyes
@prograhammer out of curiosity, what is your app doing that it needs CQRS and DDD?
Lots of complex Domain rules
My app manages high school sports data
lots of reporting as well
I know nothing about high school sports so I take your word for it that it's as complex as you say. Thanks.
@Gordon why do you ask? I'm open to advice.
You think it's probably fine to treat it in a CRUD-like manner?
20:02
I am asking out of curiosity, really. From my experience, applying CQRS and DDD adds a lot of complexity and depending on the problem domain, that might be unneeded complexity. But if the domain warrants it, it's cool.
I've been coding in a CRUD-like manner. And I feel I'm getting into some friction now because the rules are growing, and the "bus factor" has grown tremendously.
IMO, DDD helps reduce "bus factor".
When a new dev can look at your code and understand a lot about the buisiness, that's great
true
I tend to be personally philosophically aligned with DDD as well. I tend to think of the buisiness as "things" (entities) and prefer to make those heavy with behavior. As opposed to going with fat services and more anemic (data holder) entities.
Anonymous
this dude just broke symfony install for me github.com/kriswallsmith
Anonymous
14 minutes gone to waste
20:08
Don't get me wrong, there will be some need for services. (Domain and Application). But for the domain services, I tend to prefer pushing the behavior down as far as I can. Into the entities and even further into value objects if possible.
CQRS, I've been looking for the abbrev quite some time.
CQRS for me, translates to code where I have repositories on the WRITE side (some methods do reading as well...the repos recieve or return/hydrate entities). Then on the READ side, there are "screens" that I just create query objects that query the data I need, no need for hydrating entities/etc.
Anonymous
@Danack Yeah, I saw that :/
I like the idea of being able to tell a new dev...."You want to persist schools, go to the schools repository"
Anonymous
20:11
@Danack How long does it take your PC to download Sf?
Anonymous
Or should I say, composer in you PC :/
about 20 seconds, but I'm not using a framework.
^ don't tell people here you are using a framework.
So there's very little that needs resolving.
Anonymous
@Danack Really? There must be something I am missing, because .. 20seconds vs 14 minutes is worrisome
Anonymous
20:13
$ composer create-project symfony/framework-standard-edition my_project_name "2.5.*"
run it with -vvv.
well there's two problems create-project and symfony
@hakre What have you been calling CQRS?
I was just calling it "separate my reads from my writes" before I found the term.
Anonymous
@Danack I'm about to do another one, so I'll just add ---vvv ?
Anonymous
ah, forget it
I just get annoyed with people who have these egos in this biz.
For example, people who make a single condescending-ish comment and then no follow-up/explanation.
These people should just not make the comment in the first place. They lack a true sense of "community".
Maybe they are thinking it's "a waste of time". Well, waste less time and don't make a comment in the first place. LOL
Many times it's followed by a "sigh".
If your comment is condescending-ish, don't jerk-ify it more and not explain yourself.
user924016
20:23
Give up the ghost
user924016
=]
Sea-lion like typing detected. - wondermark.com/1k62
5
> Sea lions treat all conversations they disagree with as biased and illegitimate.
> Sea lions never disengage.
> Sea lions will return unless you remain silent.
Anonymous
@prograhammer and I hate people who repeat the same point multiple times in order to try and get a response to thus cause conflict. You don't like @ircmaxell comments, get over it. No one asked for an ongoing commentary of your opinions. No one here is obliged to teach others or explain themselves to others, it's a chat room. Get off your high horse.
6
fn' sea lions
@samaYo 2 mins with no cache
20:27
@prograhammer scaling e-commerce processings
@samaYo symfony has loads of dependencies
Anonymous
Anonymous
@MarcelBurkhard 7 minutes and counting
Anonymous
stack at the last part.
Anonymous
20:29
symfony installer != composer
Anonymous
Yeah, I know .. but composer is break due to some offline github repos
Anonymous
19 mins ago, by Danack
user image
@Jay noted. I'm off my high horse. I don't have an ego here. Sorry if it seemed I was trying to stir up something. I'm frustrated because I have tough choices in front of me and I look to others because I work alone.
also I read the installer is supposed to be a lot faster than composer (obviously with the limitation of only installing symfony)
Anonymous
It reached from 1 > 100% in seconds, but now it too is stuck
20:31
hmmm.. I guess symfony is dead :P
Anonymous
I had to order a very overpriced humberger to get this wifi tonight FML :/
@samaYo maybe you find a copy somewhere? sample project?
@samayo get as many drink refills as you can out of the deal then.
@samaYo no drink refills in switzerland usually
@Jay and no one likes getting scoffed at.
Anonymous
20:33
@MarcelBurkhard I've been to 13 countries, and I have yet to see that ..
@samayo drink refills?
Anonymous
@Orangepill No drink refills. The only thing abundant you'll find for free is a glass of water
and its even frowned upon
@samaYo if you just need functions, why do you want to wrap them in a class?
most places charge you for it ^^
20:35
@Samayo it's the norm in the US for non-alcoholic drinks when dining in.
Anonymous
@tereško The Application extends Container so, I can get trivial functions like $app->escape() and the framework functions like $app->get() $app->view() .. so, it's not just a Util class.
@Jay your about says "Respect people trying to help you. Respect people asking for help." Seems to be just what I was saying.
Anonymous
@Orangepill There is nothing free here, all the laws are weird. If you went to a restaurant and finished your meal, as in empty plate .. it a sign of disrespect as it implies You hadn't/were not given enough
Anonymous
From where I came, it's completely the opposite.
@samaYo I am getting a feeling that you are building either your first or your second framework
I am tempted to leave you on your own to see what you come up with
user924016
20:39
tereško advice.. "need 3 Ronni is a noob on DDD and must improve" books
@samayo so are escape and get proxy methods to a method on your util class and router class?
His second but the worlds billionth.
@Fabor writing frameworks is really good way to learn
Just as long as we don't impose them upon the world for production :P
@RonniSkansing you probably want a book that shows specific implementation of DDD using PHP. I think there may be only 1 I know of. On lean pub I think. I think it's not fully completed either, but people say it's good.
20:41
every application is in a way it's own framework
I mean, you still want to read the foundational books
user924016
@prograhammer does not really need to specific implementations in php
Eric Evans, Vince Vaugn
user924016
I got Enterprise patterns and clean code laying around, which book was the leanpub one?
@Fabor well .. I would say that using your third framework for making some small project for production is also a good exercise, because that gives you a better understanding regarding the issue
20:42
@tereško is there a framework you recommend?
@prograhammer for what?
General PHP application development
Anonymous
@tereško Just to clear, this is not like that. I have 2 sites that were built on a disastrous PHP framework of mine, 2 years ago .. I am now trying to refactor the framework so, I can have a good nights sleep.
@samaYo oh, so you technically are a the step 3
Anonymous
#2
#1 write few frameworks
#2 use one of them in production
#3 learn from the mistakes
From what I gather, this room always seems to be against any major php frameworks
Anonymous
You can not count the first one though, It almost makes me vomit when I see the code, but that was built 2 years ago .. so :/
then the answer to your original question is: you should avoid god objects whenever possible (for example that escape() method should not be in the same class as view())
refactoring a mess to a 5000-line class will not solve anything
@prograhammer that is generally true, but I would extend that to say all frameworks not just the major ones.
20:48
@prograhammer because different frameworks are suited for different projects .. and then there are just a lot of shitty frameworks
the short answer to your question, @prograhammer, is "it depends"
What about creating your own CMS?
Anonymous
Anonymous
@tereško Ok, just look that..
Anonymous
its fairly harmless, and the app is not a god class ..
Anonymous
you could delete it and use $app = new Container and the app still would work.
Anonymous
20:53
If anything, it is the container the god class, because it is a service provider
@tereško well, if that hasn't happened yet ^^ : go to some conference where you can meet one of the junior symfony software architects - priceless.
@samaYo that's not a "god class", it looks more like some cross-breed of registry and facade
@tereško well it might make the existing "design" more visible which actually has at least some value.
but yeah 5000 or 500 lines classes - you have to love them.
they have so much the touch of ageing.
@hakre you can get a 500 line class, if it's actually doing some calculations
.. and if you like to make your code nicely spaced
newline all the brackets!
20:57
@tereško let's say one empty line between each other line, okay, 250 lines
a fourth for method docblocks and the class dockblock, so 180 lines
@fabor I can't bring myself to do that.
but that's cricitcal, even for a calculation
Pretend you're paid by the line.
@Fabor I might actually start commenting my code then
When I did more webdeisng back the days, I had a website named "happens.de" and it was webesign pait like @ the butcher, per the kilobyte. :D
20:58
@Fabor I actually did that, before I got an editor, where you can set line paddings
heh. I just like hitting tab and having phpstorm auto comment shtuff.
Does anyone know what the difference is between UOW and just wrapping code in transactions?
Anonymous
@tereško With that in mind, there shouldn't be anything sooo bad with the overall framework right? I mean, depending on the concept you saw. Because, everything the application can do, the container can do as well ..
Anonymous
so, the application does not mean much, you can delete it and use the container instead, but this time, the syntax will be $app['router']->get() instead of $app->get()

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