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15:00
@DaveRandom Node.js or Python.
@GabrielTomitsuka You are looking at it the wrong way, anyway. You don't want "here's why PHP sucks", you want "here's why x is better"
everything sucks
Just in different ways. What you need is proof that something else is better for the job in hand.
and if you're comparing node, python, and php...sounds like you don't really know what you're looking for :D
@mikedugan I am an awesome Node.js dev. Check this
From a CEO's perspective, one huge thing that PHP has going for it over those two in particular is a much larger pool of people to choose from who know how to work with the platform
But equally, if what you are developing is a chat platform, Node may be a better choice. Certainly for the back end. But then again, it might not. Depends what you are actually doing.
/me remembers we need to start suffixing frameworks with .php
15:04
@mikedugan FinallySomethingWorthUsing.php?
posted on March 09, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by HeberCosFer */

ICantActuallyProgramSoIJustUse.php
@GabrielTomitsuka Wow, a single page application. That certainly is a good basis for judging whether a complete application would be easier to write in a different language.
@DaveRandom hahaha stahhhp, you're killing me
@Danack That's my Node.js project, for showing what I usually do using it.
The use case is the following:
A Nightlife Social Network.
It's broken. For some time already.
15:07
@GabrielTomitsuka Looks like you didn't get the memo that everybody is using io.js now ;)
psh, asm.js ftw
@NikiC Node.js and io.js are the same crap. Just io.js is a tiny bit faster. The code is the same.
@GabrielTomitsuka Well in that case you need better developers, not (necessarily) a whole new architecture. You implication is that PHP is not suitable for creating a social network, presumably I don't have to tell you that the single largest social network by any reasonable measure was created in PHP...
google+ of course
@DaveRandom Yup, Facebook uses PHP.
15:09
@mikedugan I was obviously talking about Friends Reunited
gist.github.com/ShawnMcCool/… <-- my thoughts on the "Instance access sugar method thingy"
cough myspace
most people do
@DaveRandom I know a very large content company (think digital magazines) that rewrote their entire stack from PHP to Scala, because . Guess what? The resulting Scala stack was even slower because the language wasn't the problem. The architecture and the developers were...
7
@ircmaxell sorta-related-side-note...you should do a follow up talk on tweaking php for performance (as you did about 3 or 4 tweaks towards the end of your high performance talk, but that talk was mostly "how php is compiled")
15:16
yeah, I can
the only hesitation I have there
is that others' do that talk
not to say I don't have something to say there. Just that others say it already (and I prefer tackling content that people arn't saying or are afraid of saying)
Seeing as we're talking about performance:
Mar 5 at 17:02, by Danack
Does anyone have a website that uses the Composer autoloader, and use OPCache on their server and fancy benchmarking a (hopefully) faster clasloader? The only thing needed to do is composer update nothing with this composer.phar and add define('COMPOSER_OPCACHE_OPTIMIZE', true); before require'ing the composer autoloader. Context is here
@ircmaxell The weird thing about this is that there are a lot of stories like this across all arms of the programming world, and very very similar stories about the use of threading - it seems to be relatively common knowledge, and yet people keep making the same mistakes. And it's not even like it's something that's that hard to wrap your head around if you are a moderately experienced developer, and most teams seem to have at least one of those...
People have (or at least say they have) learned from history and yet they are still doomed to repeat it
I've done it myself
@DaveRandom we don't learn from history. We learn poorly. We attribute our successes and failures to our tools. If we try something new, and we fail, we attribute that failure to the new thing. Almost 100% of the time. And then we move on and usually never visit it again.
There's a new talk for you... "Admit that you suck so you can stop doing it"
15:25
When you fail… you should think about why you really failed.
I have that talk in-progress: Everything you know is wrong: and that's ok
@ircmaxell Or rather: there's no right and no wrong ...
@bwoebi should? yes. In practice, that's incredibly hard. I've done formal retrospectives, which help a lot, but they take a lot of time and effort to do, so we don't do them all the time
@bwoebi that's the general gist, but it's more about how you approach the opinions you should (rightfully) hold. You need to make a temporal judgement of right/wrong or better/worse, but you shouldn't hold yourself to it any longer than it stands up.
@ircmaxell best thing you actually can do is sometimes stopping to work on something for a few months and reevaluate it. That works nicely in "hobby" projects, but at work, it's hard due to time pressure.
precisely
15:30
But that is not where devs are really able to change things. They are assigned one task and have to do it until a certain date (approximatively). It's a strategy to fail at the first bigger problems.
Sometimes it goes well, but sometimes it's disastrous…
fail early, fail often, fail small
Work on more things. If you can't continue on one for a few (one or two) days, work on something else. Also, it prevents you from becoming too attached to your code...
@ircmaxell Some fails are just visible later (like architecture flaws…)
Yeah, ideally you'd notice them early, but that's not possible.
AFAIK, when the Architect assigns tasks, workers only see what they are working on, but have no real chance to recognize that anything is flawed. That part IMO often is undervalued...
You don't even have to stop work on that particular thing for months. One week is enough if your thoughts got distracted enough over another project after that week.
user895378
morning
@rdlowrey morning
@bwoebi it's not always possible, but you can make it more evident earlier by framing failure as a good thing (and therefore encouraging devs to speak up earlier)
15:44
@ircmaxell Great. But, most devs probably just work on parts of the app and don't see the whole app in a way to be even able to recognize the major flaw.
Yup, and that's a problem that needs to be solved on other levels
Exactly. And it's there where it usually fails.
Or better: if it doesn't work at that level, it won't work at all.
@DaveRandom it's pretty clear that the bar variable was declared in the one method there
user895378
@NikiC Currently the generator returns expression patch always copies the zval so returning a reference is not possible. Do you think it would make sense to return by reference when values are yielded by reference via function &myGenerator() { ... }? Or is there a good reason why you didn't do this originally?
user895378
/cc @bwoebi ^
15:52
@DaveRandom it's not like in php where it'd be:

class Foo
{
    private $bar;
    public void one()
    {
        $bar = 0;
        SomeClass.method($bar);
    }
    public void two()
    {
        SomeClass.method($bar);
    }
}
there, yeah, it's very ambiguous.
well, you just couldn't name a variable $bar in the method
@FlorianMargaine Sure, there it is. But in a 200 line method (don't forget, we're talking about Java and PHP devs here) where the call is somewhere near the bottom and the local var was declared at the top... less obvious
@FlorianMargaine s/c/sh/
@rdlowrey I don't think there's any correlation between the reference-ness of the yielded values and the return values. function& is already used for reference-ness of yield values, so we have no way to mark a by-reference return. Thus we have a nice reason to not support crap like by-reference returns ;)
and therein lies the problem
function&& ?
@DaveRandom no, couldn't. In this case, it's way too ambiguous. In java it's fine.
user895378
15:54
@NikiC Okay, fine with me ... references there would be terrible but I just wanted to double-check because I wanted to mention the reference thing in the RFC :)
@Sara woohoo c++11
@rdlowrey It's possible. We also just always could return by ref and let determine if it's a variable or not (Something like @$var) if we want to return by ref… but well, see what @NikiC said.
:D
@DaveRandom yeah ofc I get the idea, but I'm just saying it's much better in java than in php for these reasons
user895378
> We also just always could return by ref
user895378
15:54
^ please no
@rdlowrey I'm just saying. Not that it'd be a good idea ;-)
@NikiC btw, wanted to make sure you know your PR isn't being ignored. We're making sure there's no dependence on the non-priming behavior first.
@NikiC Diff itself looks great
@Sara How do I differentiate between yield-by-ref and return-by-ref?
user895378
&, &&, or &&& \o/
user895378
references_all_of_the_things.jpg
15:57
@bwoebi I dunno, I was just being silly :p
function& foo(): &bar {} ?
@Sara I thought… But I hoped to hear the reply @rdlowrey gave ;-D
:)
user895378
&&& <-- the double secret probation operator
@rdlowrey now find a nice hebrew name for triple-and :-D
@Sara speaking of which ... I've been trying to sign up on reviews.facebook.net, but can't get my @php.net address confirmed. Do you know who/what I should bug about that?
16:00
שלוש פעמים אמפרסנד
@NikiC James Pearce is prolly the guy, I can ask him to reach out to you. I imagine it's related to grey listing or something
@Sara that would be nice :)
user895378
@NikiC yes: I was planning to announce the vote for return expressions today and send a [PRE-VOTE] email about yield from after I massively updated it to v0.2.0 this weekend.
You're niki@ or nikic@ ?
@Sara nikic@
awesome
@NikiC Poked him, and looped Wez into it since he knows php.net's mail systems pretty well. :D
16:09
duh
so, poking is a thing at facebook
@Sara thanks
didn't realize that wez is working at fb as well
seems like everybody is working at facebook :P
I don't. They don't (want|know) me.
:P
I haven't tried though.
@Sara do you guys hire remote?
(other-countries remote)
awww reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2yg9hz/… didn't see that elephpant on r/php before
it looks sad
16:18
it is sad.
because there is no comment.
@NikiC Yeah, he's been here a couple years. Not working on HHVM though. We've also got ScottMac and dsp (both of which are also not on hhvm)
Oh, DSP is there too?
@FlorianMargaine Yes, though 99% of the time we ask people to spend a couple months in California to ramp up
@ircmaxell Yeah, but I almost never see him. Unlike Scott who I hear every day. (Dude is LOUD)
user895378
hehehe
user895378
16:27
@NikiC I feel like generator return expressions is a fairly short, straightforward thing. Do you see any problems with me limiting the vote to seven days?
@FlorianMargaine Send me your CV, I'll get it to someone...
But for now, I gotta head into the office. Ciao
@rdlowrey no
@Sara thanks for the offer, but can't really go away for a couple months these days (wife is 6 months pregnant)
I can't seem to hire a good part-time student web developer.
I feel like there are less self-taught, young web developers who go on to universities these days.
The last few developers we've hired didn't need any of the training they've had here at school; we'd have hired them based purely on their pre-university credentials.
We haven't had a single applicant with pre-university experience in over 3 months.
:/
/rand rant
16:37
@LeviMorrison I wasn't into programming before going to university...
Et moi, not really at least
(you should've said "moi non plus", sorry ^^)
:P
@FlorianMargaine hello, im trying to select all from multiple tables. Ughh, i get syntax error. here.
@animaacija and why are you talking to me specifically?
16:41
The my sql is 'SELECT lv.attels, en.attels, ru.attels, FROM lv, en, ru'
@FlorianMargaine common avatar. No just im despered for attention. Sorry im being rude a bit
@animaacija Read about joins in MySQL.
@Fabor Aight i will youtube this. But .. is it common practice to gather information from many tables or we tend not to ?
And there's no oxford comma in MySQL
@animaacija Reading small amounts from multiple tables is fine. It's only a problem when you're reading large amounts from each.
afaik, isn't the oxford comma "foo, and bar"?
(i.e. a comma before "and")
16:46
yeah
but it's in reference to his ", FROM"
@Danack aight ;)
@Fabor shouldn't he look up UNION?
I've never used union... not sure
Well I kinda assumed a bit based on what he might 'actually' be after.
Either way it won't be time wasted :P
user895378
16:55
Dangit. Stupid chat moderator tools won't let me pin those now.
@rdlowrey script_only_include is in voting and not going to pass.
there you go
user895378
thanks
user895378
@Danack i'm not going to bother updating the votes message then.
16:57
Yep, it's at 4-24 so is unlikely to need more attention.
user924016
mornings
user895378
I don't want to unduly influence anyone but ... wiki.php.net/rfc/generator-return-expressions#vote
user895378
^ vote vote vote
I really need to read the RFC prior to voting
user895378
Please don't vote on something without reading it lol
17:03
@ircmaxell I assure you can safely just vote yes there :-P // Nah, just joking ^^
HOW ARE YOU VOTING FROM THE FUTURE???
Yeah, that thing is 1 hour off into past…
user895378
Daylight savings time == teleportation temporalportation
@ircmaxell That's what happens when a php developer uses dates in javascript
@rdlowrey DST? Isn't that only the 29th?
user895378
17:04
@bwoebi my clocks all moved forward an hour yesterday :)
@rdlowrey I know the concept, and have kept abreast of what you were doing, but I really do want to read it in entirety before making a final determination
@PeeHaa Nope, it's a php.net issue.
@bwoebi in the US, it was yesterday
@kelunik Are the dates coming from php.net?
@ircmaxell mhm, fine…^^
17:05
@NikiC BTW, did you try disabling greylisting while registering on reviews.facebook.net? Doesn't scale, obviously, but would be helpful for diagnosing what's going on.
@PeeHaa Yes, just hover about those icons (on php.net), they're in UTC + 1.
ow wow. Never seen that :)
Yeap they are in the correct timezone :D
posted on March 09, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by rockemite */

@Sara I didn't have it enabled in the first place
I've also disabled challenge/response filter and spamassasin thingy afterwards, but still no mail coming through
Ben
Ben
Anyone here used phpdbg with phpunit tests? phpdbg seems to run but using ev to inspect variables seems broken. Oddly things like breakpoints seem to work
That said I think I'm probably running it wrong as I have just modified the phpunit startup script to run under phpdbg instead of just php
17:12
^ @bwoebi.
Yeah… my next thing to work on if there's nothing else particular for PHP 7 hype is phpdbg and fixing bugs.
but I can't really help now with the included version in 5.6. 5.6. really was a bit early to include it, but well…
I hope phpdbg to be a really nice tool in time for PHP 7.
Ben
Ben
Alrighty, you one of the main devs on phpdbg? Or the main dev?
Also thank you for phpdbg :) It's a great tool when it's working
@Ben Yeah, I and @JoeWatkins are the main devs currently
@Ben If it works… I already sometimes got frustrated when it didn't.
@bwoebi FTFY "@JoeWatkins and I"
Ben
Ben
Yeah, right now I'm still learning PHP so the frustration for me is when it's not working I'm never sure if it's not working because of something I did wrong or just because it's new.
17:20
@NikiC Does that make any difference?
@NikiC not in american english afaik
@FlorianMargaine no? americans don't put the "I" or "me" last?
@JoeWatkins We really need to improve phpdbg docs (again).
@NikiC is right actually ...
17:21
@NikiC nope
well, that's afaik. I already had this discussion some years ago.
in french the "I" or "me" is last too
we wouldn't/shouldn't say "and me" or "me and", it's "Name and I" ...
Ben
Ben
@bwoebi Anyways I'll keep an eye on it but make sure my team knows it's still under fairly significant development. I think it could still be helpful to us in the mean time.
significant development is proving rather difficult ...
Ben
Ben
It always is! PHP would benefit a ton from having a good debugger so hopefully it will be worth it
I don't mean writing code ... this is very easy ...
17:25
@JoeWatkins I don't need that you'd work on it much… at least for the code part. But I need to have someone to discuss and assist on docs…
I don't mind working on it, I mind wasting time discussing working on it ...
in 20 years, there has been about three usable debuggers for PHP, written and maintained by just as few people ...
Ben
Ben
Which ones would you recommend for use today? I've only found xdebug and phpdbg
but it really does look like we'll have to consult all of the people who didn't care about it for the last two decades, aswell as people who have just turned up, or just like the sound of their own voice ...
@JoeWatkins not on internals level, but just between us two for things like how commands should be named etc.
Ben
Ben
And xdebug seems like a somewhat different beast in that from my read it's non-interactive
17:27
you can do interactive debugging with xdebug
there is another debugger called DBG, by nusphere, and there was a long time ago an extension called APD ...
@JoeWatkins of the latter I've never heard…
only xdebug and phpdbg are worth spending time with, and xdebug is obviously the more mature
What's a simple tool for monitoring MySQL (and other processes) and restarting them when they've fallen over?
@bwoebi what I'd really like is to patch up PHP7 to allow decoupling phpdbg from the source distribution, so we can have our own release cycle and process ... if at some point phpdbg users are as ubiquitous as xdebug users then it makes sense to move to merge back into the core and internals release cycle and process will at that time be suitable
@Danack supervisord
17:32
can we do that ?
@FlorianMargaine For MySQL? I thought there was something else that ran as a daemon level process, which is also used to restart supervisord if it fell over.
@JoeWatkins I'll really have enough time this month to make it mature I hope.
@Danack ah, dunno for mysql specifically, supervisord is just very generic
well, not to put you off, but that's terribly optimistic ... I'd rather we had several months, a year or two maybe ...
Ben
Ben
@JoeWatkins Thanks, I'll try playing around with xdebug.
17:36
plus think about how the release cycle is going to hinder our ability in future ... new version of PHP comes out and then people start testing and reporting bugs, bugs which we can't fix until the next patch or minor version, and maybe in some cases major version ...
if we don't have that release cycle we don't have that problem ... we are going to have that problem ...
@Ben keep playing with phpdbg too :)
@bwoebi I just think when it's as stable as PHP, the internals release cycle and process make sense, but until then it doesn't ... we'll do better outside core I think ...
it's not impossible to move forward but it's going to be harder ...
@JoeWatkins I have one months time now to improve it. Let's see how it looks then?
okay, sure ... I look forward to results :)
18:03
@NikiC @ircmaxell Exceptions in Engine passed. Do they apply to type hints? If so, you'll need to update STH patch to produce exceptions not E_RECOVERABLE_ERROR for strict mode.
18:27
@NikiC change the RFC while on voting?
> I would recommend using § or £
WTF THAT IS TROLLING I HOPE?
oh no I see the email to add syntactic sugar for '$this->' and the idea is to use the "shut up" operator :O
user895378
internals is stupid today ...
user895378
And the people who think @ should be deprecated and removed also don't know what they're talking about.
18:31
at least we won't have errors on previous versions ^^
I would recommend using the poop character...
@rdlowrey also wtf, one week voting?
user895378
2 hours ago, by rdlowrey
@NikiC I feel like generator return expressions is a fairly short, straightforward thing. Do you see any problems with me limiting the vote to seven days?
user895378
2 hours ago, by NikiC
@rdlowrey no
user895378
Neither did I.
user895378
18:33
If you need more than seven days to decide if this is right for PHP you're just being lazy. This is an extremely small change. addition.
Wait, I thought that the 15th was the end of voting cutoff, not the start.
user895378
It's a grey area.
Oh joy.
@rdlowrey NO, sometimes you're traveling or have a local holiday, there are people that vote on teams and need to get everyone feedback... 7 days is too short.
@Charles people are interpreting it as start
user895378
18:35
@marcio Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. For a simple addition like this, in particular one that is endorsed by the person who created the generator functionality I don't see this as a problem.
@ircmaxell Feh. Oh well, one more week waiting... yours ends on the 13th, right?
unless Zeev starts vote (which pedantically he can't, but I won't raise that concern)
It looks like they're still working on the coercive RFC - it was last updated yesterday.
Reading the voting RFC, you have to be in discussion a minimum of 1 week prior to vote. And it defines "in discussion" by saying a mail to list with the intention of voting.
I read that as saying "final version, the final proposal discussion call prior to opening vote"
which hasn't been done
@rdlowrey I don't like your justification at all. A RFC quick voted because it's endorsed by someone, whoever the person is, smells like status quo based decision. But I also don't think it's worth a deeper discussion (and I don't have time now), so good luck and hope everyone interested have the time to see the voting is open ;)
user895378
18:46
@marcio 7 days is not a quick vote and is allowed by the RFC process. If you have a problem with the voting procedure mail the list. I'm following PHP's established rules. Don't like it? Complain about the rule. But don't complain about implementations that follow the rules we have in place.
user895378
@marcio Actually, that sounds combative. Let me apologize for my tone in that message.
user895378
My point is this: the rules we have in place allow a vote to last 7 days. Given the size and scope of this proposal I don't see much benefit from drawing it out longer than that.
user895378
If it fails because enough people don't see it then that's on me.
@rdlowrey 80% of the time we discuss something you sound combative, no problem with that :P
Good guy @rdlowrey. Pounds his keyboard only to keep his cool 5 seconds later :)
user895378
18:49
@marcio I'm going to ignore that.
@marcio minimal voting period is okay for small and trivial functionality
there are two reasons for longer votes IMHO: massive changes and holidays
@rdlowrey Don't ignore negative feedback, sometimes it's true ;) And yeah, just to be clear, I think I have a problem with the 7 days rule not with the RFC itself which I like and want it to pass, nevmind. I was thinking mainly about the people that reply representing a team of ~15 people "we, from some project, discussed something something and decided that..." just that.
@marcio It was more 3 people who discussed it…
(Nikita, Daniel and I)
@marcio there's one person who does that and he doesn't have voting rights ;)
user895378
18:56
@marcio I'm not ignoring your feedback because it's negative. I'm ignoring your feedback because I disagree with your scientific assessment that 4 out of every 5 words I exchange with your are combative in nature.
user895378
In any case, that is not my intent. Technical disagreements don't need to be combative and if you feel that way I need to do a better job of explaining my thoughts in the future.
user895378
But let me make a suggestion: when someone apologizes unbidden it's best to accept that and not belabor the point. Otherwise they might rethink their reason for apologizing in the first place.
@NikiC lol, ok, I never went to the route to check the voting rights and assumed people voted in teams sometimes.
lol @rdlowrey getting pissed now :P

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