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for fuck sake
why is he insisting on "educating" php community ?!
can't he see that his bullshit is harmful ?!
/cc @Dracony
Hence why reddit for php is a joke
At least I ask for people's opinions before I post shit online that attempts to educate others :P
13:22
@PeeHaa lesson learned xD
> This is why I really want PHP 7 to get static type hints
RFC for static type hints pls
you are implictly arguing that only seniors++ should ever blog otherwise FUD can be spread. I think everybody should blog and as a developer its equally important to learn evaluating ideas (called thinking and such ;))
@mark Yes that is highly annoying, as is the way it uses arrays for all the params which are similarly uninspectable. I think maybe you can work around it by using docblock on the specific Command class you've implemented to define some methods which PHPstorm will understand.
@beberlei if you are referring to the above posted link, then I must inform you that the author is a voting member of php internals.
@beberlei right, and when some beginner that does not understand much in the field and can't see all the bs in front of him then starts spreading this bs everywhere will make it only worse
13:28
@SergeyTelshevsky true but that is life, the other way around would be some entity dictating "the right way"(tm) - not sure that helps either.
@tereško well ok :-)
some people should be held to higher standards
@tereško dat report button...reddit.com/wiki/selfpromotion
@beberlei Blogging is fine. Submitting some links is fine. Submitting a link to /r/php whenever you write a blog post....is not so fine.
if you wrote a stupid article, @beberlei , I would simply tell you that said article is shit
while you might be a professional developer, you do not have a significant footprint in the community .. therefore the damage you can do is highly localized
The boredom ...
and make no mistake, promoting integration tests over unit tests is highly harmful
13:38
wow wow wow
kids, remember to disable xdebug profile when you're done
or configure it right
my hard disk went full because I forgot about it...
lol
muahahaha
hopefully it was quick to fix
$ man ls
-bash: man: command not found
is that possible?!
@beberlei No, not everybody should blog. Being able to do awesome stuff is one thing and to teach others do awesome stuff is the other. I have seen lots of good developers who can't teach others because they lack of ability to correctly say what they actually mean. And if you are not senior++ you should not be blogging.
@FlorianMargaine centOS?
@Leri ubuntu
cloud ubuntu, I believe. Not sure. The one provided by lxc-create --template ubuntu
13:42
@FlorianMargaine ubuntu ?
@FlorianMargaine On minimal centOS installation it's fine to be missing on ubuntu quite weird, imho
oh, you already answered
if you want to use terminal, install a normal distro
lol
@Leri it's minimal ubuntu
also, you probably would prefer a distro without spyware:
Well, install then. I am sure apt has already registered repo
13:45
@Leri yeah, it's not hard. I was just surprised.
@tereško you are always welcome to write comments on my blog posts and disagreeing. you can do the same on this post. Sadly here the rule of bullshit applies, its always easier to produce then to refute, so you have to rely on people detecting this themselves.
@Danack I was thinking about that. But no way I'm gonna do this by hand. And then, it will only match method names but it's impossible for arguments because they're always passed in just on array. But then .. it's not so much different how the e.g. facebook api sdk works so ...
@Leri blogging is not only about teaching, its documenting your own learning process, and learning to verbalize
or I would generate real wrapper classes, dynamically source code generating, from that api ... phu
@mark Or you could you generate a complete api from the guzzle service description e.g. an API for Github.
That code isn't 'production' ready - but it is very close.
Does anyone know how to do run a script entry in Travis for a specific PHP version? e.g. I have:
php:
    - 5.6
    - 5.5
    - 5.4
and want to do export CFLAGS="-Wno-deprecated-declarations -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Werror" for just the PHP 5.6 version.
13:52
@beberlei Any blog is meant for readers and you should give a reader high quality posts to educate them, to make them better. If you are not better than them, how can you do that? For instance, what I do best as a programmer is application architecture, however, it would be funny if I started blogging since there's @ircmaxell (I don't even mention Martin Fowler) blogging about the same already.
@tereško You're shitting me, how did he manage that?
@Jimbo no fucking idea , it's a mystery
@Leri some of us are seen as experts because we speak/share, not the other way around
@Leri Imagine you're decorating Martin Fowler's words of wisdom and spreading them to those less able to understand his words because they're earlier in their careers
Or proxying, perhaps?
@Leri i disagree. i like reading thoughts of developers of any level, to understand the POV or where they are coming from for example, also in terms of your example architecture, you could describe your thought process, or the problems you encountered.
13:54
@tereško huh?
@Jimbo Or building FactoryFactory over that proxy. :Ь
it also allows you to enter a discussion with people that may have more experience, for example i make it a habbit to comment on Doctrine blog posts to help writer/readers understand our POV designing the lib or something.
@ircmaxell Agreed but it's not just about sharing it's about experience. After 10 years I might also be the one who should be sharing. :-)
@PeeHaa what are you surprised about ?
@tereško @Dracony doesn't have karma?
13:58
@beberlei I prefer to read blogs written by people who understands what they say and add my 2 cents when it's possible. That's far better than writing non-sense and even worse giving others the wrong path.
And the latter happens all the time. Especially, for php
@Danack woha, nice nice....
@Leri some learn so that they can teach, and some teach so that they learn
Anyone wanna buy me some £175 trousers?
@beberlei what is your blog again? If it's the one I think it is, then you were teaching some bad things too. If not, ignore that comment :)
@PeeHaa oh .. I had the impression that he had
14:00
@Patrick www.whitewashing.de - i know i am sometimes writing stuff i regret later on ;)
hi all
@beberlei that's the one... I was referring to symfony all the things
@mark It is one of the projects that I need to finish off and publish properly. If you wanted to start using it and giving feedback that would be some encouragement to do so. Basically it's at the stage where it works good enough for me.....now I need to make it good enough for others.
what is the best PHP project I can give to my students, that can be done in 1 hour?
@Patrick feel free to comment
14:03
@tereško I most certainly hope not
@RockyIWS what is their knowledge level?
oh ... then I confused it with FIG
@tereško Probably confusing dracony with dragonis (or similar)
and that
14:04
They just know basic PHP as of the moment, and a little in database.
=/
well, now I will go and be sad in the corner
@Patrick What is your suggestion
guys, should I buy a 1200W PSU ?
why 1200? what is the specs of your unit?
125w cpu + 400w gpu (at max load) + other shit ... and I intend to buy another graphics card
@RockyIWS no idea. A todo list is pretty simple, but an hour is likely not enough for someone new.
sorry, wrong quote
Yes I know, thanks @Patrick, that is why I need your help guys on what PHP project I can give them for an hour of work
thing is, there is a possibility to max out a 1000w unit , and the next reasonable step is 1200w
14:09
@teresko, I am using 600W PSU now and I think 1200 is too much, but yeah you can give it a try
@RockyIWS maybe something really simple like submitting a form that then writes/appends the input to a file?
and please don't have them comment each line of code like my teachers did back in the day
yes, a guestbook with file as backend i think
thats simple
database sounds like too much for 1h
> Additionally: "would not be as fast as an equivalent C program". I compiled mandel() using C (via PECL). It wasn't 25x faster, it was 75734.13830x faster (3000x with -O0). So no, you're way off from C speed.
@SergeyTelshevsky precisely
Am I the only one who thinks the current type situation in PHP is pretty much OK and wish people would just stop talking about it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
yay to community leaders!
Am I the only one who thinks taylor is an idiot?
he also thinks that SOLID is pointless
14:18
Way to keep the community and by proxy the language back
meh - ignore him. He'll be crying when people move to a half decent framework that takes advantage of PHP 7's new features =P
Thanks guys, @Patrick and @beberlie.
laravel = codeigniter in disguise
it's actually closer to cakephp
@PeeHaa nope
@PeeHaa part of me wants to call him out on that, part of me doesn't care
14:30
@ircmaxell Calling him out is useless
I know
Which is kinda annoying. The useless part not the "I know" part :P
I think I've just snapped. I do not want to work on software someone else wrote anymore.
@ircmaxell And in answer to his question, yes. Yes he is.
:-/
@PeeHaa I know
14:39
Bit weird
Sick of controllers full of business logic. Sick of 300+ line methods called "process" or "execute". I'm even sick of having to indent by 3 spaces.
Some of the rational in that video is a bit gender bias. Meh.
@GordonM ow god 3 spaces
How about no one hits anyone rather than men don't hit women?
@Fabor ya
@Fabor definitely
14:43
but most of all I'm sick of no documentation for anything.
@GordonM 3 spaces?
It would be those 300+ line methods for me :P
I can imagine there's some nasty code in there
yes. It's in the "coding standards" such as they are.
Very nasty, yeah.
@GordonM My condolences my friend...
@cspray that would be enough for me to quit on the spot. It shows someone thought about it, then chose to actively ignore what the rest of the world did - or worse - simply compromised between 2 and 4 spaces. Either way, it tells you what you need to know about the code base and those who built it..
14:49
What's so bad about 3 spaces except that it's not common?
thanks.
Sorry guys, this stuff has just been making me depressed and frustrated for weeks now and I think I just needed to vent my spleen.
Morning. Did this last night:
#PHP RFC now in voting: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_php4_constructors There are a lot of RFCs right now, so this will stay in voting phase for 12 days.
@GordonM vent all you like
Good day everybody. Does anyone know literature which discusses advantages and disadvantages of web and desktop versions because I find a lot of articles on the web but I need a bit more accredited material which I can quote. What is acceptable in your opinion?
@LeviMorrison The "PHP needs more kittens" RFC?
14:51
@GordonM :)
It does need more kittens probably.
@ziGi In what context? Something might suck as a web app but something else might suck as a desktop app.
@LeviMorrison When will you introduce the kittens operator which does all the things?
@LeviMorrison wow, voting is going better than I thought it would (I thought it would pass, but not by a large margin)
trigger_error (E_KITTEN_UNDERFLOW);
@GordonM They want 3, you want 4, compromise and go for 12
2
14:53
12 tabs!
@ircmaxell it only deprecates
I ended up with: $('.modal-cnt-actual').html('@Html.Raw(Html.Partial("~/Plugins/Payments.BankRep‌​ublicInstallment/Views/PaymentBankRepublicInstallment/_InstallmentForm.cshtml").T‌​oString().Replace("\r\n", "' +\n'"))'); Well, f* asp.net mvc. :-)
3.5 spaces is the only valid way to indent code. Any more, and it's too verbose. Any less and it's too compressed.
@NikiC and removes in PHP 8 too. The vote is on both.
@bwoebi yes, but it only deprecates now, so no reason to vote no
14:54
@ircmaxell So let's use tab. :D
@ircmaxell I'd have gone with 3.6 but that would eventually lead to rounding errors.
@GordonM actually, 3.1415...
php > var_dump (3.6);
double(3.600000000000000088817841970012523233890533447265625)
Isn't it FUN when you use floats for money!
@GordonM you are correct that it is based on context, but I need it specifically for web applications built for management. So most of the operations is inputting/processing company information, so I am talking about SaaS in the general sense. Here is a picture for reference evolution-framework.com/modules/m_gui_web/media/image007.png
So, I quit my job. Feel kind of bored already.
14:56
Built for management to do what? log developer activity? Book a holiday in Peru? Order more kittens?
@NikiC yeah, but we vote on removal too, so that removal won't need any further vote when PHP 8 comes… or am I missing something?
@LeviMorrison I have just invented a new game. It's called, "spot the guy who has to maintain Centos repos".
@Danack Isn't remi debian?
@GordonM I am talking about ERP specifically, financial management, stock management etc.
I guess order more kittens is part of it :D
if you are kittens company using it :d
@Leigh congrats!
14:59
Hm, Remi is Fedora, there's another guy who is debian
@ircmaxell Heh thanks. "Why are you leaving?", "I don't get paid enough to do something I don't enjoy every day"
5
@Leigh Let me introduce you to my latest time vacuum. Destiny on the Xbox.
@Leigh Maybe both? rpms.famillecollet.com But he definitely does RHEL/centos a lot.
@Fabor Have you seen the 'screen sharing incident' video?
No?
15:01
@Fabor Played the demo. Looked pretty but I kept getting a "This is halo with pretty graphics" vibe from it.
Not that that's a bad thing
posted on February 23, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by Chris */

@GordonM It's got more of an collectible/raid feel to it.
@Fabor Apparently some kid got tricked into screen sharing his game with a troll on the internet, who then deleted his characters: youtube.com/watch?v=_QwERUow9lY
Even the floaty blue guy. Kept calling him 343 guilty spark.
Level up to 20. Then farm for armor. Then raid for more armor. Collect exotics. Play DLC. Keep on raiding.
15:02
Bye-bye 400 hours of progress.
Much better if you have friends with the game though
@Danack Oh yeah I saw that. Poor kid. Tough lesson to learn but everyone needs to learn it.
can someone downvote anyone's reputation, without any reason?
@YourFriend Sure - where do you want to be downvoted?
You play @Danack?
@Danack actually there is a guy who downvoted me just to force me out of chatroom
15:05
@Fabor No.....but am ex-game developer, and try to keep up with game development news.
@YourFriend Were you saying stupid things?
wiki.php.net/rfc/expectations … what was the reason for custom exceptions? :-(
Does that make you enjoy or hate games more? :P
What language did you predominately work in for that too?
@bwoebi None, they don't make sense
@NikiC why do so many people vote on them then? :x
15:06
Anyway, I have reported the issue to staff team. They undo every thing and said they will look into the matter
wait, you construct the exception in case it's thrown??? WTF?
constructing an exception is not light...
@ircmaxell yeah, total wtf
@bwoebi @JoeWatkins wants them
@FlorianMargaine that's not a reason.
If you passed a class, then sure, why not
but passing an instance??
15:07
@bwoebi (I meant that you can ask him.)
and iirc, it's to categorize the assertions easily
@bwoebi Because people looove useless extra features?
Presumably they are compiled/optimized out if they're inside the assert statement?
in a millions lines project, having categories for assertions helps
ok, off to the office
15:10
@FlorianMargaine not really… exceptions indicate where they're thrown… In case of an exception, at least I usually start by looking at where the exception was thrown anyway.
$a_tantrum=new Exception (); throw $a_tantrum;
@FlorianMargaine The only reason why I subclass Exceptions is when I want to be able to catch them separately.
But there's no reason to catch different types of AssertationException and some not.
@bwoebi category of assertions
let me find the mail...
you don't categorize asserts… no reason to.
15:18
> It would allow us to structure the documentation and the code in a way that really makes sense especially for new developers.
Oh… really?
As a developer, I'd just stop using assertions if I had to use horrible things like that
Actually (@JoeWatkins) I was asking what the use-case was for "> Yes. you are able to eliminate your own assert() functions in namespaces.", not custom exceptions.
@Leigh There's no use-case for it. It's a technical requirement for an efficient implementation
The alternative would be to forbid declaring assert() in namespaces
Right, this is just so you can declare your own function called assert? I thought I was missing something more complicated
no it's so that a non-namespaced call can still be optimized away
15:28
I don't understand then
inside "anamespace" a call to assert(), will invoke anamespace\assert() if it exists, not many people call internal functions with the prefix \, so we need to handle a call to anamespace\assert like we do to \assert
(optimize them both away)
Oh right!, it turned out to be not complicated after all :P thanks
(which is working around the fundamental flaw in the namespacing system that non-namespaced calls are ambiguous whether they want to access from current or from global namespace)
Which sadly seems to late to fix today because BC. (maybe it's even not so much BC, but it still has a heavy impact)
You can probably preserve BC completely, but reimplementing the NS system is not going to be trivial
not reimplement. All what I'd like to is forbidding declaring functions with same name in global and in subnamespaces.
How could I preserve BC here?
15:44
well with that, you can't :)
> We're in an endless repetitive ping pong here, so I'm going to summarize
this thread from my POV:

1. For a given input source file, there is zero difference in terms of
AOT/JIT between Strict mode and Coercive mode.
hmmm...
Zeev's last mail ^...
You guys usually build your own authentication libraries for something like an API or use pre-existing?
function foo(string $bar): int {
    return $bar;
}
this can't be AOT optimized, right? ^
I'm just going to bow out of that conversation ...
@FlorianMargaine Why not?
you need to generate code to validate the string and raise an error or perform a cast
15:53
@FlorianMargaine
you cannot win this argument, you should concentrate on other more tangible benefits of static typing for users
(win with reason)
Yeah just FYI nobody is reading that discussion
I only click on it to mark as read
@NikiC hm yeah
@ircmaxell in one sentence, where is the difference wrt AOT/JIT?
@FlorianMargaine in general? or in your example?
my example, would be simpler to relate
remember: I said "in one sentence" :P
15:59
JIT has the option of using runtime information (such as the type of variable being passed) to generate optimized path for that type, or all types. AOT doesn't have that (runtime information), it needs to reason about types statically (before runtime).
two sentences ...

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