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14:00
@LeviMorrison it silly to think that I was providing some kind of guarantee that you would be inspired ... isn't it ?? I mean, really ??
@JoeWatkins Communicating facts in an optimistic way is an opinionated way.
To be clear, I'm not mad or upset with you; I'm just trying to help you see why others perceived it the way they did so we can do better with future posts.
well I communicated facts, I opened with a joke and closed with an optimistic statement, because we have every reason to be optimistic, incidentally and actually ...
those times when we have something bad to say, it's fine to leave out optimism, but if we are genuinely communicating something that is a good thing, actually, even if not in the short term, or how it came about was questionable, if it's a good thing whatever, then optimism has a place ...
I don't think the problem is optimism in itself, it is that it looks like a PHPNG promotion stuck on the front page of our website.
When historically we haven't done anything like that.
why shouldn't it be ?? it's not a zend project anymore, it's ours, we can get on with it and stop bickering now ... can we just do that ?
I think actually ... on some level you cannot be fully truthful if you completely withhold what could be regarded as opinion ...
@LeviMorrison historically, nothing has been said by core about anything prior to release. So this entire thing is unprecedented (change is a good thing)
14:06
To be clear: I'm in favor of these kinds of posts.
It's why I helped revise it ^^
Joe, if it's okay with you I'm going to revise it.
I'll be less invasive than I was last time.
no, please don't
Why not?
Even Andi Gutmans wants it revised.
14:10
@LeviMorrison Oh, Andi wants it? Well, in that case... </sarcasm> :-P
@Levi feel free to propose something (here), but don't just update it please.
@LeviMorrison because I wasn't wrong to make the post the way it is
I think we need to be more diplomatic about it.
Just how we were very, very careful with the Return Type RFC and its announcement.
We're dealing with the same (insane) group.
@bwoebi by "here" you mean, the internals list, right? </sarcasm?>
@salathe no, this chat, lol.
14:12
My suggestion: let's draft a new thread to the mailing list, proposing a developer blog on php.net. Apologize for posting that, but don't say you shouldn't have done it. Simply say "I'm sorry for how this turned out". Then suggest spinning up the blog, and posting that post on the blog. Then, edit the original post to point to the developer blog.
that's fine, and I'll change it, if it's awkward to read look at where I was told to place it ...
we can change it I mean ...
Is there a good chat/community for us coders that want to make some money with our own projects? I know quite a few people here are interested in that but it feels a bit off topic in here
Then lie and say we "accidentally" posted it to the homepage, instead of the blog system. :P
@ircmaxell That's a great idea... but that you have to argue with Hannes…
One of my go to phrases is "I'm sorry that you were ||offended|| by"
14:14
^ Whenever I hear someone say that, I instead hear: "I couldn't really give a sh* about you being offended but I have to apologise for it anyway" :-)
@salathe I wouldn't do that ;-)
I think we just need to revise what is there.
@LeviMorrison I was being honest and open, everything I'm meant to be doing, if we change it, especially if we remove the optimistic bits, we're saying I was wrong, that everyone should be indifferent, or that it doesn't matter, that's simply not true ... if it's somewhere else it can be expanded upon, maybe I can give the facts, the reasons why there's reason to be optimistic and in the long term a good thing ...
where are you wordpressers @?
morning ;)
14:19
@Hamza Is the only wordpresser I am aware of.
user895378
lol
lolwut
user895378
@CarrieKendall That's quite a drastic difference in sentiment there.
@HamZa can I ask you something wordpress related?
I finally got rid of that project :D
I'm now struggling with nodejs (sighs)
@Naruto my knowledge is limited, what's the question?
14:20
@rdlowrey pft, common typo
@Jimbo Indeed. Most won't read in to it but the genius part is it's like saying 'I'm sorry you're so easily butt-hurt'.
user895378
@CarrieKendall Yeah I bound the s/hell/morning/ macro to F7 on my keyboard because it happens so often. Totally get it.
it's actually more htaccess related ><
ahahaha don't worry, regex skills are in the luggage too :)
ok guys and gals , I need some advice
14:21
morning @rdlowrey @CarrieKendall
user895378
@AlmaDo morning
morning @rdlowrey
user895378
@bwoebi yo
@HamZa Well, on a php website, we installed wordpress in subdirectory (for simple blog reason), but now my htaaccess is blocking the link to my blog, I rewrote the url that moves to the actual link of the blog, but that doesn't seem to do it, any help on that would be appreciated :)
14:22
hidy ho, neighbor
@rdlowrey what are you going to do now? :-)
@Naruto paste the htaccess
in a pastie -_-
there is brewing a clean-rewrite for internal CMS system (which originally was CodeIgniter-based) and some of my coworkers want to base it some other framework (laravel looks like their favorite choice)
@CarrieKendall Good morning! How's it going?
@tereško Ditto minus the codeigniter part.
14:23
@Naruto pastie please
what arguments could you offer against the use of full-stack framework instead of "assembly of various libraries via composer" ?
@ircmaxell learning a lot, so life's good. how're you?
user895378
@bwoebi Well I think I'm just going to be writing C all the time for the foreseeable future. I've decided that doing a server in userland is just not feasible because of PHP's limitations (all the limitation that libuv solves).
@CarrieKendall doing pretty good :-)
@tereško BTW Maybe this could be used against it. Beta Laravel CMS
14:24
@rdlowrey i was expecting an answer closer to "going skydiving"
@JoeWatkins the positive to all of this: I think you got a bunch of contributors interested in contributing to a blog effort... :-)
You could find some shoddy code in there or something
user895378
@CarrieKendall I shaved my head last week. Is that dangerous enough?
pics or gtfo
14:25
@tereško so you want not to use laravel or some other similar things?
user895378
E_HAIR_POST_PARTUM
$5 he has a tanned head.
@rdlowrey I'm still sad that you don't rather try to fix PHP(ng) or libuv to be usable well together...
@ircmaxell yeah, noticed that ...
user895378
@bwoebi that is what I'm going to do.
14:25
@Fabien it's another "developer's framework". It's not even applicable.
@Fabien i heard he does handstands in the tanning bed for this reason
@tereško But the choice to be made with laravel may highlight some issues in building a CMS upon code review.
@CarrieKendall lol
user895378
Larahell.
fake aids
@tereško Because full stack requires you to shift through a load of crap you might not even want, where as library-based means you choose exactly what you want - and also how to use them individually
14:26
Anyway. I lost the discussion on my end so I can't provide much help :(
@Fabien Gotta admit, it looks pretty :-P
@Fabien at which point it would become wasted time&money. I would prefer to get it mostly-right on the first try.
@DanLugg lol yes. I'll let you know when/if we start using it.
@Naruto could you re-explain the problem in a different manner?
14:27
@tereško I tried pushing the point of speed/customisability. Issues with when laravel becomes just like every other framework in 'x' years time.
Client quotes for bespoke software
@Fabien E_NOT_ENOUGH_DEMO
@DanLugg It is beta
All the more reason for demo!
@HamZa Right now, my htaccess still think that /blog is a page withing my website, but when i Have www.xxx.com/blog, it should go to the wordpress site installed in a subdirectory
The counter argument is that they can say to clients they're using an industry standard development framework.
Ask them what framework all the leading websites use.
14:29
@Fabien what is it?
Never mind. Read on the contrary.
Their own I would imagine.
@ircmaxell s/cheif/chief/
I always screw that one up
fixed
14:31
@rdlowrey oh. I thought you'd do the SAPI. Then I haven't said anything.
@ircmaxell Youthfully stu p idity //typo
fixed already
@tereško The arguments I can think of that need to be prepared for are speed of development, industry standards and new employee speed of understanding the environment.
@Naruto Try some rewriteconditions: pastebin.com/GWtxE7G2
So RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-d means rewrite if the directory doesn't exist
14:33
@ircmaxell great story ...
sigh someone is asking me how to contribute on github...
but doesn't it leave me liable for a firetruck ?
@ircmaxell Also, I think there's another point to be made - people who, sure, turn up for free - but are arrogant or over-confident as a result (like we see from many library / framework owners) - don't deserve the thank you's when they're like that
@JoeWatkins worth-while posting as-is? Or do you think it needs some elaboration?
14:34
@HamZa git push
That is a good story.
@Fabien yeah, the counterargument is: lack of documentation
maybe a little, also it is a good story ...
@Fabien sometimes I wonder why I have those people in my fb friends...
@Jimbo that's just a reason to not contribute/use a library/framework
14:34
@HamZa I just don't post on facebook. I lurk.
@Jimbo I wouldn't put that in the post. That's ancilary to the point.
@Fabien I usually do the same, this time I thought let's go online...
I have memory of the wordpress guy who was a dick about that security flaw, arrogant in his responses. I'm thinking of the Laravel guy (sorry for the generalisms).
@ircmaxell Well if you show that to any of those guys I just mentioned - they can use that to feel even more self righteous
@tereško You may need to provide some time estimates on making a CMS vs learning laravel and creating one with it.
and cost.
@Jimbo let them
14:37
is this conversation centered around something? i don't feel like reading through the transcript :D
@CarrieKendall Yeah - "don't complain about something that is free" - that people put time and effort into (volunteer)
@HamZa I think I've found it :)
We are going to need a FAQ/Timeline at this rate :P
@Naruto oh, share it
14:38
in the case of laravel, there is additional risk: it is a single-developer-pet-project
@ircmaxell thanks
when he (I think it was "he") finally gets bored, the framework has a high likelihood to get completely abandoned, @Fabien
@tereško Yup. Even if it doesn't ask him how he feels about frameworks that were popular 5-10 years ago.
@Jimbo Agreed partially. You might not like their attitude, however, you should appreciate effort.
@Leri Yep, but that appreciation (for me anyway) goes out the window as soon as the guy on the receiving end is a dick about it
14:42
@JoeWatkins it goes live in 18 minutes
@ircmaxell on your blog?
> We'd probably argue over what color
grass is, because, you know, there's lots of different types of grass
and everything.
hahaha
php internals- were the color of grass is up for discussion
^ I like that quote
yeah :-)
@JoeWatkins By not improving it you are saying it is perfect.
Why is it right or wrong?
Like code it's more of a greyscale.
14:47
@HamZa nvm, I tought I had it.. Going in for some deep research :D
@LeviMorrison I don't think that's the case. I think not making rash actions is the better alternative
@Naruto ok
@CarrieKendall hm.. many people there said that message should be removed Oo
Enough we should at least revise it ^^
@Jimbo Yes, and you remember how angry I was about opencart developer's attitude but it's anger caused attitude, not by a person. Bottom line here is: disrespect attitude, not a person or work.
14:49
@Leri Yeah - that opencart developer was a complete ballbag
Attitude represents person
anytime i request something from an open-source library/framework, i write the founder a poem :P
3
Judging someone by their attitude is not judging a book by it's cover
@CarrieKendall nice :-)
@Jimbo no, it's judging it by the font-color they use on the pages
Nice analogy, but how? If someone's rude to me for no reason...
I'm going to naturally think, wow, what a rude person
@SecondRikudo Interesting indeed. TBH the manga only seemed to convince me infinite tsukuyomi might not be so bad.
14:52
@Jimbo Attitude represents a person at given moment but it can be changed. People really change in both way, it just depends which way society let's them go.
@Leri Attitude at any given moment is a reflection on the person's ability to control themselves - btw I am in no way being self-righteous about this. Just when someone's rude to me for no reason I tend to give them shit back lol
@Fabien I was always convinced that it wasn't...
@HamZa I found the problem :D
@Jimbo attitude with which content is delivered taints the content, but the content may still be good
even the rudest person in the world may actually be right
@Fabien let's continue this in the anime room?
14:54
@Naruto ?
@ircmaxell Sure, but I'm not going to let them know they're right, if they're that rude
This is just me, though
@SecondRikudo Tenten's dream was quite funny.
So what was the problem?
@Jimbo if an os owner is rude to you when you're trying to contribute, what makes you feel inclined to reply? you're doing them a favor that they don't value. save yourself some time and move on
14:55
@SecondRikudo Either no one or someone.
@HamZa The htaccess from my root website wasn't the poblem.. It seems that there was no htaccess created when installing the wordpress on the server.. (Found on google that since wordpress 3.0 you need a standard htaccess), so I added a basic htaccess in the root of the directory of the wordpress site, and It worked
@Fabien o_O
@CarrieKendall I'm going to be honest, I'm completely lost as to what this is about now :P
@Naruto wow, such craziness...
IE insignificant or barely relevant.
14:56
it was more in reference to the opencart thing
@Jimbo Well, that's pretty natural reaction. Action causes reaction, however, here we speak about attitude at given point in time. Both attitude is wrong, despite who started it. I think the better option is to convince why he's attitude, phrases, etc. is wrong and point what he should be doing instead.
@HamZa Don't mock me =(
i just don't understand why everyone felt the need to keep informing him that he was wrong and he was rude
@Naruto meh, I'm describing wordpress. It's crazy
@CarrieKendall Has he apologised, whoever this "he" is (and was he rude by majority vote or is it one person's opinion)?
14:57
For example, when I joined this room I was pretty arrogant noob, however, people around pointed what I was doing wrong and nowadays I can say I am pretty descent developer and better person, in general.
Hello
@HamZa Ow, ok :) then I can say we agree on something :D
@Script47 hi
How ya'll doing this fine day?
@Leri See I don't get that. I knew I was a noob at the beginning and humbly took on advice. I'm still a noob.
14:59
@SecondRikudo heh, he resembles Jugo //cc @Fabien
True
@JoeWatkins It's really dumb how we are 20 posts into that thread on internals and nobody has bothered to directly ask you, me or Hannes about it.
Or waited for our reply.
@Fabien For the entire series, no one gave a single compelling argument against the infinite tsukuyomi.
@Jimbo Every one is a noob, but comparing to others you are middle-end developer (speaking of those business terms) and here I am talking about my attitude at first not yours, which is not really something I can't be proud of..
Indeed.
15:00
Assuming that was Madara's original goal, and not some secret "I'll use all the power I got and blow up the sun!" or something, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
@Jimbo I remember when you first came here.
You came a very long way since then, you've reached a point where I and many others here can ask for your advice.
And, as you already know, we all have much yet to learn :)
Aw, don't. I'm tearing up :')
@CarrieKendall Wow, that did escalate quickly
@LeviMorrison I got lectured for a pretty long time in IRC this morning ...
@JoeWatkins By whom, exactly?
@Levi bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=67345 Looks like I and @salathe aren't the only ones :-D
15:02
@LeviMorrison Pierre
@ircmaxell Then we can ignore it.
@Levi I think I should change that bugs status to Critical
@bwoebi Yes, I am already aware ^^ I changed it to feature request and website related
Got an array, need to insert all of the items in the array (key = column, value = column value) in one query, how can I do that?
15:04
@BenBeri Prepare once, execute multiple times.
$stmt = $pdo->prepare("Query :key and :value");
foreach ($arr as $key => $value) {
    $stmt->execute(":key" => $key, ":value" => $value);
}
kk ty
even in your revised version you had the joke about kittens ... I got objections to the joke about kittens ...
Who objects to kittens?
Can someone please give me the short version of the kitten drama?
wth happened?
the kitten drama :D
15:07
a few people have mentioned it ... like it's a serious point to make ...
apache hates me .. and the feeling is mutual
like anyone is really bothered by that ...
@tereško That's because you hate it.
:P
I swear I sent the message before you edited yours :D
@ircmaxell thumbs up for that article.
Does anyone choose apache? If so why?
15:08
how can I make the http://who.cares/ to use notindex.php file? For some reason, rewrite is not triggered, when URL has no additional parts
@TobiasGies thanks! I wanted to get the message across, without creating more drama, so hopefully it will work :-)
@CarrieKendall Daniel Kerr is a bit of a derp.
@ircmaxell I'd tweet it then.
Or someone should
@DanLugg can't agree more. what concerns me is not him though, its the people responding (feeding) to him
@JoeWatkins Yeah, that's pretty absurd.
15:10
Oh you did 4 minutes ago :P
@CarrieKendall Oh absolutely, that whole ticket is a clusterfuck; but it could have very easily been diffused with a "Interesting, let me look into that".
@tereško how does your htaccess look like? got a paste?
@DanLugg Still reading...
Same here, but intermittently; too much derp.
I'll just leave this here: http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2014/05/the-tale-of-wrecked-fire-engine.html
15:11
@CarrieKendall The people are responding to him in kind. Just like me. Someone's rude to me, they get it back
@ircmaxell +1
lol, and in the end it just because a gif-parade... like most long-lived issues on el' hubbo.
Did the potential font change turn into an actual font change?
it goes to api.php ONLY where there is something int the URL
otherwise it keeps looking for index.php =/
which is what I want to avoid
15:13
mm
@NikiC if only
@tereško Rewrite .* to api.php?
@DanLugg agreed. my point in regards to this topic is that there is no need to keep replying. the OP was trying to improve opencart, daniel was clearly not interested in his contribution and was a douche bag about it.. there is no value in his project to me at the point that he openly admits that he is not open to any criticism.. so many people needed to play the whole "someone on the internet is wrong game" though
Try this:
@SecondRikudo no effect
15:14
RewriteRule ^.*$ api.php [L]
same
That works well for everything other than / path?
Remove RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-d as / is a physical directory.
@CarrieKendall Pessimistic as it is, I think that's an inevitability that we all need to acknowledge. If you do anything online, for every supporter, you'll probably have 10 critics. Recognizing opportunities for said critics to bombard you is key, and derailing their chance before it comes is a necessary strategy. And when I say critics, I mean trolls.
@JoeWatkins dude, nice!
15:15
Or add a specific rule without that condition.
PHP Internals: where the colour of grass is up for discussion #php
@JoeWatkins That's the view out your window?
phils reply to that ... very good :D
@JoeWatkins @Jimbo ahahhaha
15:16
@SecondRikudo worked
XD
@tereško =)
awesome
@CarrieKendall :D
For the record (I've already said that) I don't think that post belonged on php.net in the first place. But I don't get the fuzz either.
@tereško htaccess is magic, that's why everyone hates it.
15:17
@NikiC I think it was the most appropriate place we had. The issue is that this most appropriate place still isn't appropriated.
@J7mbo At least there was discussion before a vote
lol
This gifs make it harder to be discreet about being on this chat while I am at work.
Where's @PeeHaa the gif binner.
@ircmaxell wait, wait. Are we really going to do a vote? :-D
@bwoebi The most appropriate place is a personal blog
15:19
@Fabien install an unboxing userscript
I don't get why that doesn't work
Here's a draft of what I'm about to send regarding the PHPNG news entry: gist.github.com/morrisonlevi/9a7eb1c8d0ae02a06856 Thoughts? Joe? Nikita? Bob?
@NikiC where it'll remain relatively unnoticed.
@bwoebi If it gets regular and high-quality updates, it will be noticed quite sufficiently
I am inserting a new row, and after that I need to use that inserted row id(the id is auto inc) but the data I inserted is not unique, so I cant load it by the data. is there a way to do it?
15:21
@NikiC yes. But that wasn't established at the very moment where this clarification was needed now.
eh
@NikiC I think personal blogs are great for opinion posts, and thought provoking ideas. But I think a place where "official" communication about developer happenings are discussed are a good thing.
My hero.
I can't stop laughing at the gif mess that issue devolved into. Sometimes github issues just turn into SFW 4chan.
15:22
:)
@ircmaxell you can totally do factual posts on a personal blog as well
someone has been writing internals summaries for some time
in french
yes, Pascal
ah, that was the one
on a personal blog ;)
one can do the same in english
Uncie Gord caught unaware
@NikiC he writes in French and in English.
15:23
But then you're still fighting the autenticity problem. Whereas if it was unopinionated, and on mainsite, then there's something that can push against other sources of misinformation
^ this.
I am okay with having a blog.php.net
But that does not mean we should be writing the blog to php.net frontpage in the meantime
@NikiC I agree with you there ;-)
<small>I think without that one post on mainpage, we'd never have so much support for a blog.php.net on internals</small>
2 hours ago, by ircmaxell
@JoeWatkins speaking honestly and frankly. I think front-page was the wrong place for it. I disagreed yesterday, and should have said something. But since it was bjori who said to do it, I didn't say anything. That's my bad. But with that said, I don't think it was the horror many claim it is. The intent is good, we know that. The execution could have been better, but what's done is done. Move past that. The only thing worth discussing is where to go forward.
15:26
is there a significant personal hygiene problem at dev conferences?
user895378
/me slowly backs away from the idea that attending a PHP conference would be a good idea
@rdlowrey why?
@CarrieKendall no, why?
user895378
46 secs ago, by Carrie Kendall
is there a significant personal hygiene problem at dev conferences?
user895378
@ircmaxell I was just joking in response to that ^
15:27
@ircmaxell the majority of groups of developers i've been around suffer from this
Is lastInsertId() accurate? I mean it will 100% give you the row id user jut inserted?
@CarrieKendall I've never experienced it.
@CarrieKendall at home, maybe.
like the 1/5 stinker that can't be bothered to bathe regularly
@BenBeri assuming that you don't insert another row before calling it in the current program, then yes
15:28
okay, i was just curious as i've experienced this at other nerdy conferences
and at work, actually. although the scale is less.. there's like 2/100
just spray yourself with bacteria, who needs to shower anyway?
@CarrieKendall What makes you think this?
choose any of my last 4 messages @Jimbo
Yeah sorry retarded moment, it's home time :-)
@CarrieKendall It's the same at the gym. :(
15:32
if you stunk i wouldn't have hung out in that tiny starbucks for more than 5 minutes @ircmaxell :P
well, they are exercising.. :P
You can exercise without smelling.
It's crazy off-putting too.
eh, equipment gets smelly. all i am saying is that it is at least understandable
@PeeHaa why?
@CarrieKendall geee. thanks...
For long-lasting freshness. Apply roll on. Dry with hair dryer to prevent pit-stains on your shirts. Then apply some shpray for double layered irresistible smelling pits.
15:38
@CarrieKendall Not programming related
@PeeHaa why not flag for migration
it is clearly useful
And the award for worst possible indentation goes to...........................
drum roll
CRASH
0
Q: Having trouble with setting up an array in PHP and write MySQL values to it

user3684336if(!isset($_SESSION)) { session_start(); } $userid = $row['userid']; $_SESSION = array( 'login' => true, 'user' => array( 'username' => ['username'], 'use...

@CarrieKendall Works for me
522 M for yum update.
@PeeHaa ? yeah, that's at least reasonably sane
15:42
How much can I really break with a yum upgrade?
user2518044
What do you think about Klein.php Router?
@CarrieKendall Isn't it too old to be migrated?
@Fabien I always blow-dry... head-to-toe.
@PeeHaa And still, don't delv it. It isn't a problem when such historical things persist.
@DanLugg That's because of your hairy-hamster physique.
15:50
@Fabien Pretty much. I was born wearing the "Hairy Sweater of Irremovability"; it gives me +1 to warm, but randomly (and frequently) casts "itchy" on the wearer.
lol!
If this game didn't have perma-death, I'd totally restart.
@bwoebi Actually it is
@DanLugg With the right religion you could restart as a hamster.
@Fabien Yea, but I can't save-hack back to now if I don't like living in a cage.
Hell, I can't even save.
15:55
Free food and drink, 24-hour gym, comfy bed. Hamster life may not be so bad.
Whenever I'm writing on a whiteboard and make a mistake, my brain immediately defaults to + . And then I realize I'm writing on a whiteboard.
@Fabien Well, add a female hamster into the mix and I might consider it.
@Bartek meh, I hate routers which also act as dispatchers
@PeeHaa why?

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