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12:00
@RonniSkansing Already? I expected it there in a month or so :)
user924016
Yea, do not read the comments for a better day
Well first, the title should be "The Next Generation of PHP"
So that's what NG stands for :p
/me not being pedantic - it needs to be perfect on the homepage
The Next Generation of PHP internals
12:01
> The work on phpng, the doors it opens, the conversations it has started, the collaboration it is inspiring, are all worth getting excited about.
The work on phpng, the doors it opens, the conversations it has started and the collaboration it is inspiring are all worth getting excited about.
Even then, I don't like that sentence - it could be much cleaner
How about that local sports team!
@Jimbo LOOOL, the last thing homepage news posts are is "perfect".
@DanLugg that looks like first generation of PHP internals (:
@SecondRikudo alright, thx :)
12:10
It's hard to tell, I know
@salathe but they are usually about things done or milestones reached, like release of version xy or aftermath of malware attack and so on. the ng post is about an experiment done by a selected few enthusiasts. outcome unknown.
@AlmaDo Nah, it still looks like that today
@SecondRikudo I thought the progress was done
@Gordon absolutely true. I was just commenting on spelling and grammar. :)
@SecondRikudo there's usually a whole band of gorillas nowadays.
Planet of the Internals.
12:21
@Fabien the office looks nice .. but the motto seems a bit shady
RT "@PierreJoye: the news about #phpng isn't an official statement [...] but a personal post..." #php core team, look at yourself, sad !
agree ...
JIT compilation in #PHP branch leads to a 20% performance boost in WordPress. http://www.php.net/archive/2014.php#id2014-05-27-1 #phpng @zend @WordPress
I failed !!
ffs
yeah ... oh well you can't win them all ... most people will read all 6 sentences I think :D
Would you store paths to user's profile pictures in a column in the users table, or in it's own table? I'm thinking it's own table against user id so it's nice and separated. Would mean an extra join, but I'm using an ORM so probably cached
@ircmaxell I’d love to see a http://blog.php.net. It would be great. @pascalchevrel @phoenix_rises @krakjoe
12:36
I know, that's what we were doing ...
@ircmaxell @zend @WordPress Touché, sir. I got all hot and bothered and prematurely tweeted.
sounds like a personal problem
@ircmaxell You can get creams for that.
@tereško It's a nice office. But yeah. They had a meeting today regarding everyone believing in what that motto means. We'll be scored on it too. I get where they're coming from. Wanting everyone to be on the same passionate page.
12:46
Such drama...
Nice! But I don't know what office is.
^^ What the hell happened in 2000?
Oh, 4.X
hm.. any internals guys around?
12:59
@Fabien What do you guys do for a living?
Drive Change Through Innovation
Marketing solutions.
My day to day is building websites.
In drupal usually.
And recently inherited some sys admin duties.
@ircmaxell anyway. This was wrong. Or am I missing something?
@Fabien How do you find it so far, stressful, easy, ...?
Easy. Drupal has it's learning curve but ultimately not challenging.
I want to be working with people like Joe, PeeHaa, ircmaxell, Gordon and so on...
Of their skillset.
@JoeWatkins is it correct, that global symbols_table, which holds global variables & stuff, is independent from references to it? Thus, if I'll unset, for example, $_SERVER['argv'] - it will just remove that reference, but data itself will remain untouched?
13:03
The aspirations they have here and the direction they're heading aligns more with my goals though. So that's pretty decent.
What's most important to me is the quality of my work.
That's what makes me happy.
well there isn't a global symtable which is why super globals are needed in the first place, so the question is confusing isn't it ? @AlmaDo
@JoeWatkins I haven't been following the drama, could you give me the short version?
@JoeWatkins hm. what is this then ?
I mean on internal level
@webarto Why do you ask?
@AlmaDo they are the super globals
13:06
@JoeWatkins so what will happen if I'll unset $_SERVER['argv'] ? The data will still be there, as I see for now
I'm trying to understand why
@JoeWatkins ignore him
or better, let me deal with him.
yes, please do that ...
besides: this has spirred me to write a blog post
"The Tale Of The Wrecked Fire Engine"
I'm glad, I don't know how to make sense of a million people coming at me at once, I wanted to write about stuff that other people are getting wrong, well you get what we wanted to do and what leverage it gave us and what not, I don't know why nobody can see past this one post, it might be badly placed ...
13:09
@Fabien I want to steal your job.
@webarto You want to develop Drupal sites? :P
And work on OSX :P
I got a new supply of M70AB2, solves 600 problems per minute.
lol
@AlmaDo okay well when i unset that global it does what I expect and removes the var so that if I dump it I get NULL, a sensible answer might be there are references to it, maybe $argv, maybe some sapi module or something else, these are stabs in the dark, it should unset I think ...
@JoeWatkins speaking honestly and frankly. I think front-page was the wrong place for it. I disagreed yesterday, and should have said something. But since it was bjori who said to do it, I didn't say anything. That's my bad. But with that said, I don't think it was the horror many claim it is. The intent is good, we know that. The execution could have been better, but what's done is done. Move past that. The only thing worth discussing is where to go forward.
And I think a blog.php.net or even better: developers.php.net would be an awesome way to playcate the crap floating around now
13:13
it definitely would, and it would encourage all of us, that's everyone ... all of us ... to be really open in what we are doing, why ... and even how and ask for help if the developer leading the charge feels like it ...
Do internals move on from these things nicely?
@JoeWatkins no, no. Of course it will dump null. Because I removed that reference and it should be null. But I'm about different thing. For example, I remove $_SERVER['argv'] but data is still in $GLOBALS array. So for me - it's like situation - that there is symbols table (I've posted a link), and there are references (inside script, we can use them). So global data, which came from env - is in that symtable, and destroying a link won't affect it
@JoeWatkins I'm off to the office, but I'll ping you later. Let's work on a mail proposing that.
@ircmaxell thanks :)
I saw php.net page. I'm not in discussion, so don't know whole context, but I agree with @ircmaxell (so front-page is quite.. unexpected place for that). Yet in the same time I respect @JoeWatkins opinion :-D doubt if he did that without a solid reason
13:15
@AlmaDo I can't really concentrate on what you're saying to me right now, sorry but fail, there's like 100 things going on man ...
@JoeWatkins okay, I was just asking (:
@Fabien well ... I don't know ...
Ah well. They'll have to eventually.
I still want to do it, because there is still a need for it, I don't need anyone else to put any time in, I'll do it myself, and levi said he would do all about the website updates too ... and others would join in ... but wouldn't need too ...
Go for it.
13:19
it should be a standard part of the rfc process ... zend actually made an approach by doing something like it when they prepared the ng documents, I don't know if they done it by accident
but here is the rfc page everyone is reading
here is the rfc page only a few of us really understand
Do you think that a collaborative blog application would be cool. Unrelated to your current predicament but just a spawned idea.

Premises. A site (subdomain) where blogs live, but anyone (with privileges) can write a blog. Blogs that get approved (via whatever voting/democratic method) make it to the published status. The collaborative aspect coming from allowing edits (forking).
Issues being no one ever agrees but we somehow manage a conclusion.
Too convoluted perhaps?
@Fabien You mean like Tumblr?
user895378
@DaveRandom Yeah I was out of the office for the past week. Got back yesterday. No midlife crisis this time :)
@Danack I don't use Tumblr. I thought it was for images? o.O
it liiiiives
13:22
@rdlowrey yay, welcome back good lookin' :D
I'm thinking more like a mix between the RFC process and github.
@Fabien It's a blog, where people can reblog stuff they approve of.
user895378
Time to deal with the backlog of work (programming and otherwise)
@Danack Is there community approval of the blog before publishing?
@rdlowrey Work and messages from this room.
Not seen you since before I php.multi'd our dev server. Which has feedback.
@Fabien I think to start a conversation someone needs to make a statement or ask a question initially, so probably a collaborative comments system is the most use you can get from collaborative thought in filtering content ...
13:23
@Fabien You could do it by account - have one account that is 'official' that has to be approved that just reblogs things made by other people.
user895378
FYI my presence will be sporadic over the next week as well -- have family visiting starting Friday. Should be around more than this past week though.
More than not around. :P
user895378
@Fabien were you able to build openssl for phpng?
But probably a bad idea tbh. Keeping official stuff independent of not-official stuff is good - though something better than currently exists ought to be on php.net . And I think it's okay for people to have different opinions and for them to be shown on there. Having to have consensus before giving out information is stupid.
@rdlowrey I'm not sure I even tried tbh. I just followed instructions. :(
13:26
So long as it's clear what is an 'official' announcement and what isn't.
user895378
@Fabien I didn't have any trouble building it myself. If you try again and have issues let me know and I should be able to help.
@rdlowrey Cool cheers. I was only doing it for test purposes to help you guys out. It's not something I need but am just helping provide feedback for.
I'll wait till it's a quieter period for us all to try again
@rdlowrey boo ...
user895378
I haven't read internals all week. Any major drama happen in the last few days?
nope, nothing ...
nobody done anything, carry on with what you are doing ...
user895378
13:28
I think phpng is a bit of a misnomer ...
user895378
What's "next generation" about it other than it's a little faster?
cleaner apis
more efficient use of memory, not necessarily in the sense of consumption, but efficiency ...
it's quite nice ...
look at zend_hash.h header ...
this is how any sane person would have written it in the first place ...
you can see from looking at the header what it implies
zval** -> zval*
user895378
Sanity is not something I generally accuse (older) PHP of embodying.
I don't blame it ... today ...
I will in ten years ... we have a chance staring us in the face ...
also ...
I may have done something ...
user895378
Something?
user895378
Oh, I read that a little while ago. I don't see the big fuss honestly. It's news.
user895378
For once the php.net news feed had something that wasn't just release announcements.
change is scary ...
you must not be human ...
user895378
Internals needs a decrease in bunched-up panties.
I instigated the change and so have the antidote, but you should be pretty scared ...
user895378
13:35
Scared? Is the thought-crime division coming for me?
some kind of machine, an automaton to un-bunch panties while they work is probably in order ...
dude, I'm just trying to work people out ... I dunno how you work ...
user895378
I think IKEA sells a chair that does that.
@rdlowrey Herro, you've been away for a while...?
user895378
@Jimbo yeah vacation last week.
noice, no code in the head, palm trees etc?
13:36
@rdlowrey probably ... they came for me ...
the sturgeon and anthony (who I don't want to ping because he's busy) came to the rescue ...
user895378
@Jimbo yeah, I hadn't planned on it but some people invited me last minute so I went for it. Gotta get that tan back, ya know?
hey linux people. What causes ` kernel: [ 3181.979756] hrtimer: interrupt took 15635400 ns` in my syslog and do I have to worry about it?
@rdlowrey You know what they say about tans...
user895378
By "they," do you mean the US Surgeon General? :)
which is the best centralized repository to use?
13:40
Oh hey @rdlowrey welcome back :)
@rdlowrey No, it was just a statement; you know what they say about tans; I personally have no idea because I'm a shade of transparent.
:-P
user895378
@SecondRikudo thanks! will be kind of sporadic over the rest of this week and next. Summer is always low-productivity for various reasons. Won't really be back programming all day until after next week.
#rdlowreyproblems
@Hamza Whichever works for you.
13:42
@PeeHaa Depends if you care about some interrupt taking over 10 millseconds.
s/10/15
Who can help me with some networking/proxy advice?
we are three people and i have never worked in centralized repository what do you recommend to used in office! @SecondRikudo
@Hamza You want your code to be in the open?
@PeeHaa that's some serious first world problems ... hrtimer sounds hardwarey ...
Are you using Git? Mercurial? SVN? What?
13:44
should we use localhost or online repository
no!
you might have to cleanse all of it ... with fire ... obviously ...
I have tried SVN but i could not install it
@Hamza Good. Use Git.
Is it simple to use ?
@Hamza Google it, the documentation is very good.
13:46
thanks!
If you'd like later today, after you read some about it, ask here in the room and we'd help you getting started :)
@PeeHaa have you got some werid kernel name with RT or RealTime or something of that nature in the name ?
I've a service that takes items from a list and hits a 3rd party service with the metadata (as if submitting a form). Now, I have an IP address listed for each item, I want that my request would appear (via Tor, Proxy, or whatever other means) from the same country as the IP listed in my file. Is it feasible?
Also, ideally, the request should not appear to be originating from a proxy.
Sounds suspicious, I know. Trust me, it isn't.
hrtimers look like configurable kernel modules, quick scan says there are two subsystems so probably you can switch ... otherwise just burn it ...
@SecondRikudo you're doing something bad. I won't help you :-D
13:48
BTW @rdlowrey did you know that Artax doesn't work with Tor?
@JoeWatkins Let me check after the machine is rebooted. It is some openstack debian thing
user895378
@SecondRikudo There's no reason why it would work because artax doesn't support encrypted proxy connections right now. I could implement it in a couple of days, but like most artax fixes/changes it's hard to be motivated to do so when I don't really need the functionality myself.
@rdlowrey Teach me how to add the functionality myself, you might get a PR or five out of it.
I've been looking for a library I actually use to contribute, and currently only Artax and Auryn apply.
I have a theory
user895378
To proxy an HTTPS connection you have to first connect to the proxy server. This necessitates a new option setting so you can specify the proxy server address.
user895378
13:50
So that's the first step.
I must work !
@JoeWatkins No offense here but if you used my entry I doubt Ferenc and others would have complained.
@JoeWatkins good theory
I doubt it @LeviMorrison
I don't.
Mine was far less opinionated.
13:52
there are no opinions
user895378
The difficulty is that artax tracks all the socket connections (so it knows when a new one is allowed or not) by the remote party's hostname. With a proxy intermediary you now have the same address for all your socket connections. So that would need to be rewritten to support proxying.
@AlmaDo that was neither the intent nor the implication of what I said
@rdlowrey BTW I remember a while ago you had a small talk about how easily you implement SSL. What was it using?
@JoeWatkins I don't know why you can't see that your post is opinionated ^^
user895378
@Fabien PHP's ext/openssl and the encryption stream wrappers?
13:53
@ircmaxell sorry, can't remove it now. Again, lost context
@JoeWatkins Every day I tell that to myself, and yet...
Anyway, in the long scheme of things I don't think it's a big deal.
@rdlowrey I imagine it was how you do it in in Arya.
I will say that Pierre was (unsurprisingly) rude.
@LeviMorrison I am optimistic about the facts
that's the most you can really say ...
who wants to read a post about how there's a branch that might lead nowhere
13:56
That's "opinion", Joe :)
user895378
@SecondRikudo and then when connecting to an encrypted resource with a proxy in-between you have to use the HTTP CONNECT request method to first establish the connection to the proxy. Honestly it's not the sort of thing you really want to mess with. The real answer is for me to just re-architect the code with proxying in mind.
no I'm communicating some facts, and I'm optimistic about what that means, the things I said are based in reality for me, it is motivating and all that other stuff ...
@JoeWatkins this should be enough to show you're on the right track.
user895378
@SecondRikudo I just haven't had a lot of motivation to work on my FOSS projects lately because they don't make me any $$$ ... I want to spend some time on things that can generate some funds in return for the countless hours of coding :)
13:58
if I'd have put my name to it, I'd have been happier ... it was from me, and maybe my opinions reflect what I regard as facts, and those aren't facts for you, I wasn't trying to speak for everyone when talking about kittens or venturing a guess at what this means after all nobody expects anybody else to be able to see into the future, at all ...
@rdlowrey E_NEEDS_MOAR_MONEY
user895378
Needs isn't really the right word ... E_WANTS_MOAR_MONEY is probably more appropriate.

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