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00:00
So I'm doing something else wrong, because I feel like I am as capable as you guys, but I definitely know less. I feel like, at 34, I should be approaching some level of prestige akin to the name ircmaxell has for himself. Instead, I'm working a shitty hourly job in a backwater, trying to figure out where I should even begin.
was introduced as a child to C yeah, but I was a proper shit ...
not necessarily ...
That's why I figured it most profitable to become an expert on one thing, anything else feels like time wasted
user895378
Well, the best way to make a name for yourself is to make something worthwhile.
Ergo, OSS :)
user895378
^^ That.
00:01
My skill set definitely improved more over the past two years than it has in the 5-10 years before that :)
user895378
OSS has high visibility. And lots of people will use it even if it's terrible because: free.
Do you guys pay attention to politics?
okay but @rdlowrey you could only take php so far and what do you require now ??
user895378
C
exactly, something else ...
it's definitely worth it chris
class Console {

	public static void main(String argv[]) {

	}
}
you already know it ...
00:02
I think I let myself get distracted by unrelated shit, too. I spend a lot of time doing political activism, and that eats up time.
@rdlowrey Worst example: jquery-rotate, written by yours truly ... and truly a piece of shit by today's standard.
Still, it's No. 2 hit on Google.
user895378
@Jack nice.
Unfortunately, I'm lacking the drive to fix it haha
@krakjoe @php_appserver Hey Joe, we're in Vegas rocking pthreads :)
this would be nice ... if it were me in vegas ...
Yeah, if you try to search out any of my work... anything cool died with the startup that I made it for, and this embarrassing crap-pile I work on now.
00:03
@rdlowrey You know what's even better? 10M downloads ... wahaha
@Chris The company can sometimes make a big impact.
Actually. .. not sometimes
user895378
Okay folks, have a nice chat. Time for me to jump back down the C rabbit hole.
The right company can give you a boost in skills.
I get frustrated when politics comes into the media ... I conclude that they are working within a broken system and there is not much point in investing much thought into what they say, their actions are somewhat predefined, so basically, whatever ...
@rdlowrey Good luck!
Gotta go drive myself to the office ... night folks!
I am pretty embarrassed of most of the stuff that happens here. It is all really cool, but it is so much like my startup work -- creaky, get-er-done stuff with no regard to best practices or doing it "right", just DO.
00:04
morning!
user895378
@Jack later
And do FAST.
moin @reikyoushin
so the drama still hasn't ended yet :P
Later Jack
00:05
lata chaps
I just went from nightshift to dayshift and this? haha. just kidding.
@Chris That's why you have to hang around here as much as you can ... =D
it got bit crazy yeah
well, now that i'm dayshift, i rarely see anybody.. :(
@Jack And get a new job. The lack of standards here is not from my lack of trying, heh
00:06
i am usually online on the dead hours of the day..
standard are very easy to write down ...
@reikyoushin I don't actually really know what happened ... wasn't watching really ...
@Chris my previous company was like that..
@JoeWatkins i just backread yesterday.. but i wasn't there.. :)
I don't really think standards work
though i think there should be one owner on the other timezone.. so there is still an active one when all others are sleeping..
IDK if you were here earlier when we were talking about this job, but we are a nonprofit. They tell me to build something. I try to define the project, to use formal processes for getting information, and my boss shuts it all down. He just wants me to write the code. Tests? No time. Seriously, I will get reprimanded in front of other coworkers for taking too much time without producing visible, usable results. I am not even allowed to work on a dev server.
00:09
if you are working in a team, then someone commits stupid code call them out on it like you would on a project elsewhere ...
could be @Jack since he's in AU, right?
they won't commit stupid code again ...
if you're working on your own, just don't be stupid ...
None of my recommendations are taken, we don't have a repository -- not allowed.
There's no team, it is just me.
@Chris i recommended a lot of stuff on my previous company.. nothing was heard, and thus the change of jobs..
you should probably find another job
your boss is a dick
don't waste time working for dicks
user895378
00:10
you should probably find another job
There are committees that decide what I should work on -- I am not on those committees, or invited to speak with them. I can't even take bug reports from users. They have to tell my boss, and he tells me.
user895378
your boss is a dick
Heh, he means well.
user895378
It's either ignorance or malice, and neither is acceptable IMO.
I can't even get frickin xdebug installed on the server
user895378
00:10
That's a good thing ;)
if your boss doesn't take your views into account, then there must be a problem somewhere...
he certainly does not mean well whatever
he means to berate you in front of your co-workers ...
i was tellin them to upgrade PHP version and it took forever.. i think until now they're still in 5.3.6 baaah
you don't want xdebug anywhere near anything
and i told them to stop coding new systems on codeigniter because its dead, but i was not heard. :P
00:12
He's a network/PC admin dude. He's the "department head". Everyone here is very passionate about the place, about the work. So when they told him, "run the IT department", he takes that seriously. It is bad enough, other department heads have approached me and said, "If you quit, we would hire you in our department", even though that would never fly
so i left em. ;)
@reikyoushin correct thing to do ...
if you are not the master of your own decisions, but are responsible for them, this cannot work ...
@JoeWatkins Okay, I don't have time to get into that today, but I am interested to know why.
the only people making any decisions should be qualified to make them ...
@JoeWatkins yup.. good thing an opportunity arrived. :)
00:13
@JoeWatkins This is exactly my situation. I am a vague concept to code converting monkey without opinions.
those people above you should be qualified enough to organize a team in a general sense, they should not dictate development procedure or practice
in the same way as you do not hire a surgeon and tell them how to operate, your bosses know nothing, if they aren't aware, tell them ...
@JoeWatkins and if they don't listen.. you should think twice about your future with them.
user895378
Maybe I'm late to the party on this, but why in the world is there a "merge strategy" option on the size_t int64 RFC?
When I get a project request, it is a word document. Someone here filled it out with a bunch of bullet points that they want. Sometimes, I get to talk to them prior to them filling this document out. They hand it to me, and my boss has me basically guess how long it will take to do. Then, if it takes any longer, I get berated about it. But, the people who filled out the paper are allowed to constantly add to it and change it, but the timeline does not reflect that.
definitely, master of your own decisions or GTFO
user895378
00:16
Might as well say, "Zend has decreed that phpng is definitely going to be a thing. RFC process doesn't matter. Deal with it."
@Chris the only people preparing such documents should be qualified to prepare such documents, point out some obvious truths, nevermind politics :D tell them just the truth, if they do not agree, they are mad, you cannot work with people who are mad ...
Ugh. Anyway, I am indeed going to find a new job.
Before this place actually ruins me as a good developer.
you might be able to change your environment by speaking up ...
worth a shot
@rdlowrey that did happen
user895378
Tried that. I've even tried just short of an ultimatum. The boss was like, "Well....", even though they would be screwed if I quit, because we don't document anything
^^ which is also part of what keeps me here, a feeling of responsibility and guilt.
user895378
00:19
F the guilt. Don't waste your life in a terrible environment.
Thanks for the counseling session, guys. I needed to vent about this.
lol
you know I don't really like this pretence that voting means anything, during other votes, zend have said "it's not happening, regardless of outcome", if we put this to vote and decide no, we are fucking crazy ... what is voting really about ... think we'd have more direction if we just admit that wandering aimlessly hoping we don't break anything too much might not be a good way to manage this ...
user895378
I understand the feeling of "ownership" from zend ... they basically turned Rasmus's pile of crap into something that was actually usable. It's hard to relinquish control of something you created, but still. If the project is really going to be an open thing then it should really be an open thing.
@Chris there's a position at Site5 web hosting, might worth a shot...
@rdlowrey Agreed. Note that I haven't voted on the RFC main; just indicated master.
00:23
@webarto LOL. you pop up then suddenly you're advertising.. :P
@reikyoushin I haven't popped up, I'm here all the time :D
user895378
Wait. When did @TOOTSKI become @webarto? I don't even know who you are anymore!!!11
I'm not really seeing a reason to resist such contributions ...
@rdlowrey I have lost my identity, and italics, I'm nobody now.
user895378
Just install the deleted message script thing
user895378
00:24
That's the only real benefit to ownership
I was approached by US Signal, which is in town. They are very committed to PHP, and offer 20k more a year at their entry level. I have been dusting off my resume and feeling extremely insecure, but I'm going to apply.
@webarto since your not <em>webarto</em> anymore, i don't feel bad myself. :)
gah, back to work. lotsa documentation left to do. >.<
@Chris man up ...
@webarto Will check that out, thanks :)
although..
17 mins ago, by reikyoushin
though i think there should be one owner on the other timezone.. so there is still an active one when all others are sleeping..
00:26
@Chris If you apply, let me know please.
@JoeWatkins Yeah, yeah. I got my ass handed to me in 2008, I need to do exactly that.
@webarto are you back with them?
@reikyoushin Hell no :P I'm in good relationship tho, I assume.
Will do
@webarto ;P
00:28
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards

Dragon Paul

Hetzner Online AG
Industriestr. 25
91710 Gunzenhausen / Germany
Hetzner has dragons for support, how cool is that.
hehe
I often think people just make up their signatures
@webarto URL for site5 job?
there was a guy on internals asking really basic questions with an @mit.edu email address in his signature...
seems suspect ...
@LeviMorrison Your URL, Sir
^ i always think that the name "levi" is a girl.. tsktsk
00:30
I've known a couple of levis ... male ... one was in a horrific car accident ...
He died.
no, he didn't, because he was a child at the time and they are made of rubber pretty much ...
but he did loose a large part of the skin on his face and was scarred horrible ...
@webarto It's not as bad as I thought it would be. They say too little about what you will DO though.
On a lighter note, every time I see Levi's name in chat, this song gets in my head: youtube.com/watch?v=PozDk_-PxGo
Only tangentially related, ofc
Ah, time to get outta this place. Thanks for the (probably kind of weird) chat, really guys. I've been feeling behind career-wise, and trapped, and I need to just get the hell out of here.
Good night
user895378
00:36
@Chris Good news: it's in your hands :) night
so @rdlowrey is my server library ready yet ?
@Chris i kinda feel like I had a chat like that just a few months ago.. (when i was on my old company), believe me it'll be worth it.
user895378
@JoeWatkins hah. I'm learning how to use sapi/embed right now so I can use the same php config file format I'm using in aerys right now.
@LeviMorrison Not much... just maintain helpdesk application which was made with ZF1 and D1 and "normal" HTML/CSS/JS... it's OK.
user895378
Basically the outline is ...
00:38
what's D1?
Doctrine 1
Pardon me.
@webarto ah.. okay. :P
user895378
The main binary:

    - Parse config file, spawn a worker process for each available CPU core in the system
    - Listen for reload commands for hot upgrades
    - Listen for new TCP client connections
    - When new TCP connections are accepted they're distributed round-robin to one of the
      worker processes.
won't it become a bit nighmarish if you write all that with zend api tho ?
user895378
None of that uses zend except to parse the php config script
00:42
wouldn't it be better looking forward (ng for example) to write the server bits disconnected from zend completely and provide some kinda api ?
user895378
Everything else is just libuv
user895378
But you're still right.
user895378
The code should use an api that's agnostic to the config format.
user895378
So that a plain text file with a DSL can be used as well (or whatever)
00:43
Current status.
Who's good at CSS?
@DaveRandom not that good, but i'll try
user895378
Then the plan is for each worker process to handle the IO with a single tsrm context for the non-blocking persistent application and fire up a full blown web sapi context for uri routes that specified that behavior. This allows us to service requests in either a non-blocking manner or with the traditional synchronous web SAPI in the same application.
( literally nobody on the entire planet)
^ so what's it about?
00:46
@DaveRandom What's that?
:P
How do a make an element resize vertically with the page, so that the bottom is always n px from the bottom of the viewport and the top is also always in the same position?
Wait 1 sec, will be easier to explain what i mean with the page
user895378
I'm just going to give in and use the joyent http parser for now because I'm tired of implementing every single low-level thing myself.
but .... the web sapi is disgusting ...
@DaveRandom what do you mean by resize vertically? you mean always 100% of the screen?
new SAPI or GTFO !
user895378
00:49
It is disgusting, but I'm going to let people either use that -or- the new and improved request/response abstraction I'll make.
@DaveRandom Maybe ping @LeviMorrison
user895378
I'm going to completely replace all the terrible superglobals and everything with my own abstractions.
You can probably use the embed sapi, yes?
user895378
Yup.
@DaveRandom Ping me with image.
00:50
@reikyoushin @webarto @LeviMorrison jsfiddle.net/9qXDr/embedded/result - so that the so that the top of the <ul> is always in the same position on the page, and the bottom is always n px from the bottom (basically, make the <ul> taller and not a fixed height)
user895378
But the plan is to allow people three options for any individual URI route:
so per process/thread request_startup/shutdown once, and per request none, right ?
user895378
@JoeWatkins right
user895378
1. Totally non-blocking route target
2. Synchronous with the new improved SAPI with my own Request/Response abstractions (also offered in #1)
3. Synchronous with the old terrible SAPI
so forking to make processes ?
00:53
@DaveRandom so the ul will always be taking up the space below, even if there are no li's?
user895378
@JoeWatkins Nope, libuv is wonderful and does all things
Hmm... I think you can do it with some clever flexbox stuff.
user895378
@JoeWatkins And here's a demo of sending the new client sockets to the workers as they're accepted: nikhilm.github.io/uvbook/processes.html#arbitrary-process-ipc
user895378
So hopefully the availability of the old terrible SAPI will mean people can immediately use the thing for any existing PHP web application and start writing new resource endpoints with the vastly better, more performant options. They'll be able to start integrating websockets with existing applications.
so distinct processes using domain sockets (pipes, right ?) ?
00:56
@reikyoushin yes, although I'm flexible on putting it into a container of some sort if required, I'm trying to retain markup semantics as much as possible but there is only so much time I'm prepare to spend shouting at my computer
It only needs to work in Chrome, it's the config page for a Chrome extension
user895378
@JoeWatkins Yes. But each worker process can spawn its own threads for anything it needs to do (like handle shared nothing old-style web sapi requests).
user895378
The main process basically just exists to verify the config file, accept clients and listen for commands to upgrade the code.
@DaveRandom Will there be anything below the <ul>?
well ...
user895378
That's the plan anyway. Thoughts?
00:58
don't support the old sapi mostly ...
@webarto not unless there needs to be to make this work
don't even give it a chance, because strange
user895378
Well it's a pretty straightforward thing ... not very hard to do ... and it would massively speed adoption.
user895378
Doing so would provide a migration bridge for every php web application in existence. It's like $ php -S except for production-ready and super-performant.
I really have no clue when it comes to anything more than the most trivial CSS, as a general rule I have other people to make things look pretty, I just make it do stuff
01:00
okay, but, the core executes certain things at certain times expects certain things to happen, extensions written rely on such things are going to cause problems, better to break compatibility (because you have already lost control of it) with such extensions because they cannot then cause problems like leaks and faults and what not ... I'm sure there would be a way to write the sapi module struct such that you nullify the current SAPI and everything that is stupidly relying on it
you have therefore the best chance of being able to go into a request and stay there, indefinitely ...
On another topic entirely, @ircmaxell I recall a long time ago discussing with you that shift operations on strings should do the thing that I think is the intuitive thing and actually shift the bits in the string instead of casting to int, do you have any good real world use-cases for that? (or did I just make that up?)
user895378
But can you not do something like this in a new thread?
well I'm up for looking forward, I don't think it need be more complicated for the programmer than a new framework ... perfectly possible to provide adapters and or examples where applicable such that you can use al the major frameworks that exist and are being used ...
user895378
tsrm_ls = tsrm_new_interpreter_context();
old = tsrm_set_interpreter_context(tsrm_ls);

... do the full request/response  here ...

php_request_shutdown(TSRMLS_C);
tsrm_set_interpreter_context(old);
tsrm_free_interpreter_context(tsrm_ls);
user895378
@JoeWatkins hmm ... I suppose ... I guess the whole reason why I started this was because I thought the existing web sapi should be replaced :)
01:03
@DaveRandom crypto
@bwoebi planning is bad
@bwoebi we should never wait for changes. Take existing code, and say we're shipping with this on X date. Anything else that's voted and ready can come in. Otherwise, sorry
user895378
Lately I'm subscribing to the belief that talking about changes is a terrible strategy. The only thing that helps anyone is to implement something that you believe is worthwhile. Then seek feedback. Refine if necessary, but talking about code without having written any code is essentially useless.
@ircmaxell basically, I did this but I want to try and add a specific real world use case before I present it to the people who will tell me how stupid it is
@rdlowrey agree, mostly
Big changes or changes that impact significant portions of code really need to be communicated.
@DaveRandom not sure if the gain is worth it... I've proposed it in the past, but
user895378
01:06
@ircmaxell Yeah, I mean there's a place for planning and outlining, but things like internals discussions are the kind of stuff I mean when I call it a waste of time
@LeviMorrison this
@LeviMorrison which is why I said "mostly" ;-)
user895378
@LeviMorrison And yes, big changes certainly merit discussion.
as soon as the impact is apparent ...
is 2am, /me sleeps
nn
@DaveRandom is the "window" resizeable?
01:08
@webarto Well yes, that's the whole point :-P It's a Chrome extension options page so it's just rendered as a regular web page in a tab
@DaveRandom Yup, yup, just figured it out :D
user895378
@JoeWatkins night
#redbull #redbull #redbull https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h6iCn0301M#t=80
@Ocramius Hahahaha. I actually prefer Burn, I can't buy it anywhere in this hours, I'm nervous.
01:16
@webarto well, I can. XP
I'm actually running on a single can of redbull since hours >.<
I actually can't drink coffee anymore... I'm sick of it.
So, prefer the diabetes in a can.
@webarto overflows page for me, but that is an interesting property that does exactly what I want, do you know what the 100% is relative to?
@Jack for now
@webarto you just need better coffee
01:18
@DaveRandom It's relative to container (#rules one), it can be done maybe easier, but I honestly forgot how. I've done it before.
@Shog9 Yeah, probably, got sick of the current one.
@DaveRandom to the parent container.. (#rules-section)
but it seems it disregards other items inside that container when you tell it to render 100% height.. >.<
AAAAaaaargh how can something so seemingly simple be so difficult? :'(
Use tables :P
01:35
@webarto You should try the coffee that comes out of a cat's rear end :D
Made from the beans that come ... well, you get what I mean
@Shog9 Gotcha, I've set up a dedicated task room for it, to be torn down once the job is complete :)
gj
01:52
@reikyoushin Singapore actually :)
seriously, what the actual fuck. Are you seriously telling me that even in CSS3 there is nothing to say "100% - height of content above"?
:verysadface:
I would use Javascript to be honest.
@DaveRandom You mean height := parent.height - siblings.height ?
#rules-section
{
  position: absolute;
  width: 100%;
  padding: 0 41px;
  height: -webkit-calc(100% - 159px);
}
#rules
{
  position: relative;
  height: 100%;
}
Yeah, calc() is pretty cool stuff hehe
01:56
It "works", unless you change the content above #rules.
Yeh, and that's exactly the problem. Because that value relies on all sorts of user configurable crap (zoom, for one)
@Jack It would be if e.g. you could calc(100% - #header.height) :) JS can do that.
jQuery can do all the things for you.
Totally.
/kills self
01:58
Actually, we've written a layout manager of some sorts to combat exactly that.
In ... jQuery =D
It was somewhat inspired by the hbox and vbox that came with ehh, Firefox was it?
Yeah, I always said that CSS is the dumbest thing.
And no, LESS is not good.
Yes, it's surprisingly lacking.
It should work out of the box. Not compiling and stuff.
I like the idea of LESS, although I prefer the other implementation ... but somehow it never materialised.
Problems that were actual 10 years ago are still here.
02:01
Yes, prime example: Windows
Argh, fecking Apache!
my pr is still open without so much of a hint of progress =/
#rules-section
{
    height: -webkit-calc(100% - (21px + 12px + 1px + 1.5em + 1.2em + 1em + 1em + 12px + 15px + 40px));
}
#rules
{
    height: -webkit-calc(100% - 30px);
}
Really, CSS? Really?
That's done by explicitly setting the height of every dimension of every element above it. It works, and it survives resizes etc but... really?
coffee screen
+1 for combining em and px :)
+1 for bed, tbh, that has very much taken it out of me
nite @all
02:16
Nite :)
@DaveRandom so how's that different from specifying a fixed height? LOL
Good effort, Tim T, but it won't protect you.
Hmm, FILTER_VALIDATE_INT should work, no?
I'm not sure why he chose a sanitise filter, tbh.
@Jack Nobody seems to have looked at PR's for days now...
Sad, sad face :(
@LeviMorrison You didn't click the link, did you? It's for httpd hehe
But yeah, that's sad nonetheless.
02:55
would it make sense to sanitize the id or just use parameterized queries? hmm?
I prefer validation over sanitisation in this case.
And parameterised queries is like hygiene factor.
03:17
Oh cool, I like the gold medal that appears next to my nick when the hammer gets applied <3
link puhlease?
question marked as duplicate immediately because Jack has the [javascript] gold badge
@Jack cool!
Almost as good as a diamond.
question marked as duplicate immediately because User has the [rebecca] gold badge
=p
03:27
<3 <3
@Jack i think you should be a room owner too.. what if someone spams the stars and everyone's asleep. >.<
or something like that..
we need someone on this timezone, and you're more experienced so i think you should be the one. :)
Thanks for your confidence vote, much appreciated :)
maybe we should ask them..?
I'll leave it to @ircmaxell to decide on that.
Yup, done :)
anyway, it sucks being on the hours of this room.. T-T
03:33
We get to see India wake up, though :D
@Jack but they're quarter a world's time after ours..
I believe it's 3 hours behind me.
@Jack we're both +8, right?
Yeah :)
Oh, I thought you were Spanish haha .. my bad!
@Jack nah, i'm just right next to you.. lol
03:37
Three hours travel, but yeah, pretty close :)
why isn't SG part of MY? is it the same as to what happened to HK and CN?
It was, but after the '63 racial riots it was separated again.
@Jack oh, so that's why everywhere around your place is MY.. :P
I believe HK and CN were separated for a while because HK believed in Western progress .. admittedly, my history knowledge isn't the best :)
@Jack neither am i, what i've heard though is that HK was UK's colony before.. twas why it was not part of mainland
03:43
Yeah, we're both surrounded by and dependent on them ;-)
yey, lunch break! BRB
Yup, which is probably why their English is better than typical mainland heh
see ya
@Jack What date.timezone are you in?
Asia/Singapore :)
03:52
We're a dot on the map.
In the morning I see most go to bed, in the evening I see most wake up heh
Well, I'm off to bed. Have a nice day, Jack.
Nite!
04:09
Morning
mogguh
@MikeM. I was actually hesitating if I should be a roomowner of this room. Now It's done, I'm not angry about it. It's good this way. We had too many roomowners.
user924016
Mornings
04:45
@DaveRandom I could buy it as an "ebook" here
guys, are there any known issues with PUT/DELETE and theirs usage in ajax replies in modern browsers?
@zerkms you mean whether they're properly supported?
Define "modern browser" (not trolling)
@Jack yep
@Chris anything released in 2014 + IE10+
everything seems to be fine on the browser's end
though php's SAPI has some issues with understanding RESTful queries
04:49
Anything that implements XmlHttpRequest should have no issues with those methods.
@tereško Have you checked this book? If yes, do you recommend it?
@tereško You mean handling POST/PUT of "non-standard" messages?
@tereško I've just watched a vimeo video about software craftsmanship you twitted about recently. The best conference video I've watched this year
heh, tnx
@HamZa yes, I can recommend it
ok thx
I should save some money then :P
04:51
@zerkms Yeah, you're good there, then. Got a question posted about it?
@Jack I mean any non-GET request which doesn't have multipart-form as Content-Type
Yeah, fair enough :)
@Chris nope. I would give a link to it if I had )
But there's always php://input :D
@zerkms Well, there's no gotchyas that immediately spring to mind, so details have to come into play :)
04:53
/me is refactoring something to simultaneously work as a ZF1 module and SF2 bundle. Such a painful process
core with two adapters? :)
if only it was "core"originally
but now it is, yep

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