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00:00
somebody set up us the bomb.
@HamZa head over to the HTML/CSS chatroom
@Jack what's the bomb for?
it's used for breaking your code.
you don't need a bomb for that
but it helps.
00:06
phew, it was just a method with the same name as a method in a trait used by the class. seems like that is kind of a shortcoming of the current implementation of traits in PHP, though
now to the real bugs
00:34
added a snippet to change the chatroom directly on the console^^ meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/214973/…
@Jack All your git rebase are belong to us.
What's a mysql administrator? I mean what is there to administrate? All you have to do input a query and you get results back.
@AGirlSaidMySmileIsCute Um, there's a lot to administrate administer given certain configurations.
@AGirlSaidMySmileIsCute Not when you have to sync 10 databases and optimise them
Is there any place I can learn more about it? Wikipedia doesn't have anything on it. Google search shows me mysql website.
00:46
Well, I think Google might've gotten that one right; mysql.com
Le sigh:
"Engineers should be able to say, This is what we want to do, & all the product managers in the world aren’t going to talk us out of this."
That's Marc "Let's rewrite Netscape from scratch over 3 years and let Microsoft kill us with Internet Explorer" Andreesen, saying engineers should be able to overrule product managers.
^ not sure if I should give him/her this link rosettacode.org
The creepiest thing you can do is drive next to someone on the highway at the exact same speed.
Nothing like reading about planet colonization proposals to make you feel like your work is an insignificant blot.
01:20
My 'work' involves raising four children and taking less Valium -> I have the feeling your work might be more significant :)
02:12
@Danack I will never cease to be amazed at the way people in roles that are supposed to complement another role make sweeping generalizations about the other role that put them in adversarial, unproductive situations.
or, in the case of andreessen, make such comments offhand, when he knows tens---maybe hundreds---of thousands of people will read them, and adopt his haphazard edicts without thinking twice.
BREAKING (2014): It's better for project managers, engineers, devs, and designers to work together than to talk shit about and discard one another
@dyelawn Agreed, although people sometimes just need to let some steam out. And I wouldn't worry much about people following his "haphazard edicts" at least the good ones won't, simply because those can think for themselves
@FernandoSilva i work with a couple people (who do great work when they're not talking about pedantic or semantic concerns, btw) who will literally hold shit up to say things like "well, i know the stakeholder said [x], but in [book y] kent beck said [z]".
i guess that part of my point is, with great audience comes great responsibility.
but the main part of my point is, it is so, so, dumb when developers, or engineers, or project managers, or designers say things about how people in any of the other roles "don't get it". such a waste of time. so myopic. so unproductive.
02:29
@dyelawn yup, I did agree with you on that. I don't really agree with holding a project up because someone said x or y, although sometimes establishing a clear route is safer, with certain types of people (not role related), because changing their minds mid way can result in loss of work. About talking about the other roles, well that happens everywhere and actually helps the team (each part) bond, however, it can't go to extremes.
Exposing those "concerns" about what some roles "don't get" in regards to the others' part sometimes can bring all the parts together.
well, i expect people in every role to listen to and respect people in other roles. just seems like the predominant mindset amongst people working in tech is "[x] just don't understand" instead of "hmm... wonder what [x] knows that i don't". and that's just stupid
@dyelawn lol
sorry for getting so wound up and polluting the room. but the whole self-perpetuated dichotomy between people working towards a common goal struck a little close to home (and from an objective standpoint, i think it's stupid). i'll dismount the soapbox now.
@dyelawn no worries, I agree with you... although I sometimes fall on the other side of the fence, even knowing I shouldn't
we just had to let a young, intelligent, remote worker go because he was holding things up on "principles" instead of performing obvious implementation. and it drives me nuts, bc he was the best programmer we had.
at the end of the day, no matter where your semi-colons go, you're building something because you want people to use it, right?
02:38
@dyelawn Sometimes being the best can do that, personally as a newbie programmer trying to get into this seriously I mostly use a learning stance towards everything I see and it has proven fruitfull
@dyelawn well, if your semi-colons aren't in the right place, it might collapse on you one day
@andho i'm referring to semantic placement, not syntax-breaking placement
Good morning!
morning!
@dyelawn I know. I know what you mean.
I didn't know the patterns of enterprise were this detailed: enterpriseintegrationpatterns.com/toc.html
02:40
@FernandoSilva well i hope that you maintain that stance, and not just in terms of learning from other programmers, but learning from other people that do important things pertaining to what you're buidling
@dyelawn so do I
@andho i'm all for solid patterns, so long as they don't get in the way of progress.
@dyelawn actually that's why I'm trying to stay in this chat room as much as possible... sometimes someone asks a question about something I never hear of... today I learnt about websockets without even asking a single question :p
like, you and i might view a "transaction script" slightly differently in a particular context. but that aside, if we both know the pattern, and we decide it's the best thing to use in a particular situation, then we should be able to go full-steam ahead
Personally I don't care about patterns: They are just an abstract way of telling some one **how** to do something. Like instead of saying "Put one feet infront of the other ..." you can just say "walk". If the guy can figure out how to walk on their own, I wouldn't bother.

But what I would tell them is, make you code Orthogonal and Clean.
02:44
@andho orthogonal and clean?
is that googleable? lol
@FernandoSilva Orthogonal as in less coupled. Clean as in KISS, DRY and the other stuff
@FernandoSilva yup, checkout Orthogonal Design
@andho but hopefully when implementation is obvious, you wouldn't purposefully implement incorrectly and then talk about triangulation when a project manager calls your BS
@andho found orthogonal, not the clean part though... are KISS and DRY achronyms?
keep it simple stupid
don't repeat yourself
valuable knowledge regardless of your industry, occupation, or role within a given team
@dyelawn oh yea, that would be KISS wouldn't it.
obviously, he didn't keep it simple
02:47
@andho yeah, and it drives me nuts. he wanted to prove how much smarter he was than everyone else. i don't know whether he was smarter than everyone else or not; we don't customarily give standardized tests to our employees for comparative purposes. i just knew he was obstructing our team's ability to meet deadlines.
and, like i said, best programmer we had. so it drives me nuts, because i would have liked to work with him for years. some of his code made me think for a few minutes, which was awesome.
@FernandoSilva I would recommend a book for a Beginner who is not happy with the systems he builds. Pragmatic Programmer. It will teach you all these high level principles. But to get into the implementation I would recommend Domain Driven Design by Eric Evans. I learned "real" OOP from that book
@andho no PoEAA?
Pragmatic Programmer was the first "programming" book i read, though, purely bc of the title.
@dyelawn we had a guy like that in my previous company. He didn't work under me, and his supervisor never gave him any significant tasks (mostly side projects).
@dyelawn it's too detailed. The two books I mentioned are just readable. It's entertaining. Martin Fowler is a genius but reading him is boring.
@andho if we were a larger company, we might have been able to spin him off into a role like that; unfortunately we're still at <30 employees
yeah, Fowler is def. boring unless you're feeling really academic. but PoEAA has come up in multiple conversations that i've had in real-life situations, and it's served me very well to have read it.
@dyelawn we let him do small stuff like "phone directory (internal)" and all employees actually loved the stuff. But he cannot do team work. He worked with Node and MongoDB while everyone else used PHP and MySQL
@dyelawn yeah, you definitely need to get familiar with the patterns. I read the Design Patterns book. The one thing I took out from that one is UnitsOfMeasure as Value Objects.
it's not that I don't recommend PoEAA. It's just that I think DDD and Pragmatic Programmer has more to take out from for a beginner.
02:55
@andho sounds like the "one step ahead" guy; refreshes HN quite often. we use a lot of bleeding-edge libraries, which keeps most of our devs engaged. like i said, i wish we had a place we could have put this guy to work in isolation, bc i would've liked to have seen what he could have actually built.
sry guys, wife called
@andho fair enough; having read Pragmatic Programmer first, i'd say that is a valuable first read. helps get past all of the impractical stuff that one invariably encounters when s/he wants to learn to write programs
all that said, i didn't really "get it" before i got my hands on some source and tried to use/analyze/reverse engineer it.
@dyelawn that's true. That's my first concern with recommending books. If you haven't really faced the problems that is mentioned in the books, it doesn't really click with you
I started off with html then into C# starting a little app, now I need to go into PHP heavily. Personally I know I'm not ready, I slip on a lot of small stuff like syntax, but I bang my head till I find the problem... I haven't got the slightest idea about patterns although I know they're out there. I'm almost done with the PHP reference manual and will need OOP guidance next
@andho i started coding three years ago yesterday; it was a huge advantage for me to know what i wanted to build before i knew how to build it. i limit myself to 20 "gradual" pages of reading per day.
@FernandoSilva why is it that you "need to go into PHP heavily"? is it an employment situation?
03:03
@dyelawn yes, got hired to do a website from scratch with a shopping cart vibe to it
@FernandoSilva I also learned gradually. Basically because I was never happy with my implementation. I found out MVC because I didn't want to include 'config.php' in each of my php scripts. And so on...
@dyelawn unfortunately things started out with the tightest possible deadlines
@FernandoSilva what i'd say is: we use a well-known php framework on server-side, a well-known JS framework on the client-side, and a well known config mgmt lib for infrastructure. but when i get to have control of an interview, i don't mention a single one, bc understanding those specific libs isn't important
@dyelawn I remember you coming in here and talking about something no one could understand and was too high level. Some of the guys blocked you hehe. I think back in 2011
@andho i think i'm blocked by plenty of people, and high-level may actually be low-level, lol
i had no clue what i was doing (literally didn't know what HTML was when i started), but had a crazy desire to learn once i started
03:07
@andho well the problem is the person that hired me used to code his own websites, but started out coding as a hobby like myself... so we end up both staring at semi-colons to try and find the problem xD
@dyelawn i learnt html when i was 14, back when google didn't exist
@FernandoSilva this is where autodidacts like myself are light years behind the academics: learn how to debug; find the logs and read them; test your code. these things will save you lifetimes
well i'm loving the echo and alert, those guys tell me plenty xD
@FernandoSilva I guess I have the gift. When people are struggling with an error, I just look at their screen and I'm like "Oh, you have a missing 'coma' there.". And I can only wish everyone had this gift.
@FernandoSilva no no no; you start by writing the tests. it sounds crazy, but it will be a revelation.
@andho I know what you mean... I sometimes watch some video tutorials and catch all the errors before he hits the button
@dyelawn writing the tests? how so?
03:10
@FernandoSilva hehe
i didn't understand TDD or BDD before a year ago. to make myself employable, i knew how to categorize, write, and use tests in all four of the major phases, but i thought they were trivial components.
@FernandoSilva check out Uncle Bobs Bowling Game Kata. It's a step by step guide to Test Driven Development. Even if you don't start testing now, you'll know how useful it is. It's a presentation where he writes the code and tests for implementing a Bowling Game logic
is there any php debugger like visual studio for c#? with the step into function?
@FernandoSilva PhpStorm has integration with XDebug.
I think a few other editors would do as well.
@dyelawn wow, i spend half the time jumping google for answers on what u guys are talking about xD
03:12
then i started working with a bigger team, and i had to manage some people. now, at the outset of a project (regardless of the actual lang used in implementation), i spec out an app in gherkin before we write a single line of code. the devs are way more productive.
@dyelawn cool. I haven't gotten myself to do that -.-
@FernandoSilva don't know when you started, but you'll be furiously googling for about 2yrs after you start, bc we're all assholes that love acronyms
ThW
ThW
yeah, bdd is still on my todo, too. Well maybe this year. :-)
but you'll learn to recognize which ones you really need to know (REST) and which ones are just BS that someone's putting out there trying to piggyback on another, very similar idea (cough cough HATEOAS cough excuse me)
@dyelawn good thing I got dual screen... already have about 20tabs open for tomorrow xD
and 2 books in PDF waiting
03:16
@FernandoSilva DO NOT information overload yourself. KISS :). pick a direction you want to go, and learn at a comfortable pace in that direction
@ThW BDD has a pretty gentile learning curve
@dyelawn I hardly have the time at the moment for studies... but it's always good to know what's out there so I can pick a direction
at the moment I have a feeling the project is going the procedural way xD
1step at a time
@FernandoSilva if you try to consume all of the things quickly, well:
ThW
ThW
@dyelawn, it is not only learning but integrating it as a process - that's a lot more difficult imho
@dyelawn oh I know... I can feel it spinning in my head right now xD
@ThW yeah, i get that, shouldn't make it seem like a trivial thing to do. what i've loved about BDD is the ease of stakeholder contribution.
03:21
woah, what the heck happened to the php rfc pages?
1 message moved to /bin/gif
@bjori ping
lol, i've always just enjoyed the gifs in the moment, and forgotten them when they were binned. i think /bin/gif might be one of my favorite things ever
@dyelawn if I told you I'm still trying to wrap my head around class usage, what would you advise. Going through patterns before messing with classes, or the other way round? Btw ready made classes I can use, I'm just struggling on how to build one, cause I feel there's so much to think about before starting to code them.
@FernandoSilva give me ~7-10 min, have to put one of the kids to bed, but i'm interested in having this conversation bc you are asking the right questions
ThW
ThW
@dyelawn Yes, that's what it promises. We already use TDD and have a CI system for it. This includes selenium tests for some stuff. BDD seems the next logical step.
@ThW oh don't tell me this is a start here to get there type of thing
@ThW do we progress from TDD to BDD to something else? i still haven't had time to read through all the tabs i opened xD
ThW
ThW
03:28
@FernandoSilva It isn't.
@ThW so why do you think BDD is the next logical step after TDD?
ThW
ThW
@FernandoSilva Not in general, but for us.
@FernandoSilva try to do SRP i guess
@andho single responsibility principle?
@FernandoSilva yeah, that's the best way to make your classes really useful
03:30
@FernandoSilva If you don't know the slightest about either, then i recommend starting with BDD, since it's essentially a "branch" off of TDD
@andho one class does one thing, and one thing only right?
that wasn't even close to 7min; my daughter is awesome. my son, well...
lol
@dyelawn ok, with that said I now understand ThW's post
i've got two sons, lucky me ... =/
@FernandoSilva yeah. It's easy to say, but in reallity this takes a lot of thought. Don't try to follow it religiously when you're starting off
03:33
Also, you need to define what "single responsibility" means.
i'm an impetuous person; i like to know "a little about a lot" right away. this isn't necessarily the best approach to programming. but it is why i found BDD to be an awesome tool that helped me progress a lot personally
@andho now I tell you I would like to make a client class... so that class would manage the client and only that... but does it manage database interactions related to the client and everything else the client does, or is that doing more then the "one" thing?
@dyelawn ok, so it seems i'll have to take a look at BDD sometime soon, even if just at a glance for now
particularly the Gherkin syntax. writing something so simple as Given a street "River Street" \ And a house at "16114 River Street" \ And a house at "16115 River Street" \ Then there should be 2 houses on street "River Street" really drove home the connection between business requirements and implementation for me
@dyelawn the reason why I need to know "a little about a lot" is to figure out where to go from here and just that
So is this the point I recommend PHPSpec and Behat :P
03:36
@dyelawn It's this gherkin you speak of, right?
@FernandoSilva database interactions should be managed by a dependency. An injectable dependency or Inverted Dependency.
@dyelawn that made no sense to me xD
@FernandoSilva That makes absolute sense :) if you can identify two houses on the same street, the street must have two houses :)
@Jack how does that relate to code? it's obviously a fallacy
It doesn't :)
Well, not necessarily anyway.
03:39
well i think i consider it a fallacy since i have a certain perception of a street... if that's where you'r going
Assume you're making a street directory.
@Jack yes
@andho PHPUnit and Behat would be my recs
cool, i'll have a look at that :)
03:43
someone could explain to me why I had to bind the others two parameters.
0
A: How to Debug error:1038, Severity 15, State: 4 when exec a SP from PHP

Emilio GortThe problem was solved binding the other two SQL parameter and specifying is_null parameter in mssql_bind $days= 30; $FromDate = NULL; $ToDate = NULL; mssql_bind($stmt, '@Days', $days, SQLINT4,FALSE,FALSE); mssql_bind($stmt, '@FromDate ', $FromDate , SQLVARCHAR,FALSE,TRUE); mssql_bind($stmt, '@...

Because Microsoft?
@Jack if you've ever used Behat, then you've used gherkin
yes I know @Jack...but how can I deal with those things
@dyelawn Be(w)hat? :)
@FernandoSilva I think you might be overcomplicating it; the idea is to give people who want you to build something an easy method to communicate with you.
03:47
@dyelawn Interestingly, according to the Wiki article on BDD it says that communication breakdown between dev and biz is the risk :)
@Jack breakdown sounds like someone is using the channel incorrectly.
> This communication can break down if the developer lacks the ability to effectively get the best feedback from business users, or if the business users lack the background to understand technical issues that affect them.
@dyelawn I usually tend to overcomplicate... gotta find a library with some algorithm to unwind the brain :p
@Jack it's about having a common language between stakeholders and technical groups
@EmilioGort Can't tell for sure, but since you're binding @Days for which you had also defined a default value (I think?), having to bind the other two sees logical.
03:50
interesting:
user image
2
@andho I don't see how that corrects anything about the statement.
yes but im the SP I have
@FromDate DATE = NULL,
@ToDate DATE = NULL,
IF(@Days > 0 AND @FromDate IS NULL AND @ToDate IS NULL)
@jack what did mean @Aaron Bertrandin in their comment when he said about print $stmt, he got bothering, but $stmt is to initialize a Store Procedure, and return resource id#7
@Jack and here I was thinking that communication between the devs and biz WAS the whole idea behind BDD :S
@andho Right, that's what I was getting at :)
To have a better communication - one just follows DDD ideas
03:53
@Jack but the same thing would happen even if BDD was not used. With BDD you have a single point to look at the business requirements.
which introduces a shared language
@zerkms Ubiquitous Language
That's too many D's :)
@andho sure
BDD doesn't ease communication, it would still one way
but you would have the requirements written in a more human friendly way
for sure.
03:55
that's why you need D{3}
damn, that reminds me, i still have to read my ddd book =/
which one?
ehh blue book, Eric Evans
err: big blue book
have you read the infoq book before?
which one?
03:56
EE's BBB is difficult to start with (used doubled letters intentionally)
this one
free in PDF
Free, yeah!
well guys, i'm going to have to head out to bed. Thanks for all the pointers, I'll try to look into it as best as possible, hope to catch you guys around again^^
@Jack stop chatting and go read it now
The main things I got out of DDD is Aggregate Roots and Bounded Contexts.
I don't think I understand Bounded Contexts well enough though
user652649
04:26
jsfiddle.net/epMs2 - I really like divide and conquer last days
for some reason it has a lot of applications
 
2 hours later…
06:04
Power operator voting closed, passed with two third majority :)
2
06:35
@Jack pong
@bjori hi :) wanted to check whether the hidden vote results are a deliberate decision.
not sure whether you're clued in on everything that goes on within each section of php.net heh
06:54
@Jack hmmm that's not very transparent. If politicians did the same with their votes there would be protests. PHP voting affects the entire PHP community and as such the process should be open to the public's view.
1 message moved to Trash can
@crypticツ I agree ... the votes become public once I closed the voting though.
became visible I mean.
perhaps they didn't want one's vote to influence another? dunno.
If people's votes are influenced then they should not be voting. =oP
haha
@crypticツ I always argued this, even for my countries presidential election
Aha, it's here.
07:00
^ USA
Probably not my place, Hello by the way :)
But isn't the point of political discourse to persuade?
hello
@SamanthaP I think by what is meant by influence is to follow the crowd
@In that case, where's my pitch-fork? :)
not make informed decisions, but just go with whatever everyone else is doing regardless of it being right or wrong.
07:02
I always follow my heart XD
with frameworks and politicians
I follow the voters money =oP
@andho I don't use frameworks, I hammer on my keyboard until it works.... >.<
@SamanthaP that might be the norm nowadays
The only acronym I use is OOP, and even that I use inappropriately and only because I can't be bothered to use original variable names and need the namespace :)
Good morning !!
PHP to hit 500K questions :)
07:06
@Rikesh Good Morning!
07:21
Wow, who knew that SwiftMailer is so messed up underneath the covers =/
@Jack isn't that amazing though
did you mean expected? not sure how 'amazing' fits here :)
amazing as in, it works really well, until it doesn't
Yeah, it has always worked well, so I never bothered to look inside.
All of a sudden I see this Swift_DependencyContainer::getInstance() stuff
@Jack it is intentional yes. during a voting people can't see what others have voted on now
@jack it was something talked about last year (well, at this point... last-last year) and people seemed to like it
after the vote, the votes themselves become public
07:31
@bjori Yeah, I saw it ... fairly odd decision, I can imagine an rfc author wanting to get in touch with someone in particular based on their vote, but that's not possible.
but during the vote itself... I guess its to prevent "I don't care, but I want to be in the cool category"
why should he? bribe him to vote yes?
no ... not at all, but sometimes the reasons for voting a particular way is not always publicly expressed.
or if the first 10guys vote no.. then whats the point in voting 'yes' when it seems unlikely to happen anyway?
i still find -3**2 == -9 weird. I never new this
-3**2 != -9
07:33
i agree with the hidden vote during voting in this case
idk though. I personally don't have opinion on showing/hiding votes during a vote
or is it a precedence issue?
Good morning!
@zerkms they say it's actually -1 * (3**2)
Hello @JoeWatkins ....
07:33
@bjori Outwardly I can see how this could improve voting influences, but imho the author should see the actual votes .. isn't that what auth="user" is for?
@zerkms == -(3 ** 2)
right associative, it was something you could vote for
@jack I think that actually means that you can edit the vote itself :)
which.. is totally not what we want
@bjori You can always edit your own vote.
but that doodle plugin isn't a poll plugin, so it doesn't really... have security features
no, I mean, the poll author can actually edit other peoples votes
Wait, what does auth="user" mean? I've changed it to say auth="<my-user>" :)
07:36
@Jack it is weird
@zerkms meh :)
thats what I did when I removed the script kiddie votes you guys voted few weeks ago... I added my self to the voting authors so I could remove the bogus votes :)
hehe
that wasn't even script kiddie worthy.
just go to the page without logging in and make up the username you want.
thats what the doodle plugin is intented to do.. its not actually a poll
just like the doodle service itsself.... its not a poll/voting thing
we abuse it to be so
so.. when I was upgrading the wiki and craps around it I missed one patch :)
so when can we expect phprfc.stackexchange.com? heh
3
07:40
:)
I hate the wiki
I really really hate it
for discussions that would be great, not sure about the voting portion.
stas tried once
he posted a SO question on "which features should be in 5.3"
ah
how fast did that get closed? :)
hi:)
@Jack it's all subjective
one day I proposed holywar.SE, was declined for the very same reason
07:42
=> meta :)
I can't find the post... weird
0
Q: How to add Punjabi Laguage in Google Translator?

ramanI want to add Google Translator in my website.But i want few languages from the collection of languages Google provides Hindi,Punjabi,English Only. I have checked and found Google Provides us an option to choose specific Languages but it does not have option of Punjabi. can any one help me how ca...

too many delv? heehee
@raman translate.google.com -- do you see it here?
if you check it here, developers.google.com/translate/v2/using_rest#language-params punjabi isn't in the list
07:44
yes @zerkms
@raman really? I don't. Curious to see a screenshot
@zerkms I can see it on their website as well, but if you check the api docs it
*it's not included
@PatsyIssa that's weird. How is it visible for you, not me? :-S
@zerkms @PatsyIssa when i use all languages then it shows
07:46
I see
89
Q: What features would you like to have in PHP?

StasMSince it's the holiday season now and everybody's making wishes, I wonder - which language features you would wish PHP would have added? I am interested in some practical suggestions/wishes for the language. By practical I mean: Something that can be practically done (not: "I wish PHP would gue...

found it
closed as not constructive by Thomas Owens♦, Walter, Mark Trapp Sep 24 '11 at 7:47
oh okay, diff site :)
@zerkms
07:48
@bjori a good deal of the suggested additions made it into the language actually :)
@raman check this part out
the iso code for panjabi is pa
@Jack yeha.. eventually.. not all in 5.3, but certainly in 5.4 and 5.5 since those two realeases contain every thing anyone has ever though of, ever
be it good or bad idea. its in 5.4 or 5.5
@zerkms laravel > symfony ? :)
@Jack yep
07:51
symfony has more forks though ... hungry devs =D
it leads to tons of developers who cannot debug and treat programming as woodoo magic - stackoverflow.com/q/20945105/251311
@PatsyIssa it is paid i think?
I have some experience in codeigniter & intermediate level oops
My Q is
1. may i need learn other framework such as zf2 or symfony2
or continue with Ci & ?
2.recommend book or video tuts for Object-oriented analysis and design
1. yes
@satheesh bhai... agar kuch mila to mujhe bhi de dena
07:53
2. gang of four
material
I only recognized "material"
raman sorry i don't know hindi !
@raman I m guessing the entire api is paid developers.google.com/translate/v2/pricing
@raman sorry !
07:57
mornings
@satheesh CI is dying out, go for symphony or laravel
DEFINITELY NOT to laravel
How come ? I haven't used it yet but i v heard a lot of good things about it
@PatsyIssa you might have heard a good things about phpnuke as well

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