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15:00
@NikiC the only problem with errors is that you can't catch them
@bwoebi If emulating the normal behavior is the goal, then just produce the normal error, rather than using trigger_error
For example, I have been thinking about how to do warnings, and what I thought was that I could throw Exceptions or do nothing based on either a php setting or a library setting, but I could use trigger_error() instead. What would you guys recommend?
@NikiC but my problem with exceptions is that they are always fatal for the program if they aren't caught.
@bwoebi That's good
15:02
@NikiC I cannot have exceptions of notice level… or so. would be helpful when developing. Maybe I would want to fix first the really fatal errors and then fix the notices
You are implying that your code is already full or errors and you have a hard time deciding which of the 250 errors you need to fix first...
@NikiC or exceptions of E_DEPRECATED, E_STRICT. would really suck to have to catch them (this would be really code smell…). instead of a @ as a temporary fix
@NikiC what sucks is also, when I fix one error, I only see the next. I'm not able to first fix them together and only then retest it.
@bwoebi Instead you prefer throwing notices in a loop, right? :P
@NikiC yes. when they are thrown in an infinite loop, it gives me a hint that the loop is infinite.
The premise is simple: If something is wrong, fail. Don't try to somehow "save" the state so it can continue running
15:07
@NikiC for example with one single exception undefined index $i. Then I don't know if just the array is one element to short or if the loop is continuing infinitely because of a wrong condition.
Anyway, I better not talk to you
I get aggressive talking to you
5
short: I'd just want exceptions with some parameter/property: interrupt program if not caught - or not. then I'd be happy to change errors by exceptions.
@bwoebi That's stupid
After all exceptions are not necessarily caught in the same stack frame in which they are thrown
hm. you're right. this would be a problem.
So in the end, usually all exceptions are caught either way (with a top level catch-all)
15:13
but as we know php, it won't change……… :-/
And even without the technical aspect, the concept itself is totally dumb
Really, I can't express just how stupid PHP's behavior is with notices and warnings and the like
Like "Oh, you're using an undefined variable, go right ahead, you probably meant NULL anyways!"
@NikiC Even worse: $array[wtf]???
@NikiC this sucks, really. But what sucks isn't PHP's behaviour, but the behaviour of the developers just turning notices off :-(
@bwoebi No, PHP's behavior is what sucks
The issue is amplified by a bad developer, but it's really PHP's problem in the first place
@NikiC Not arguing against you, but rather trying to figure out how I am going to design my code. How would you do handle the following scenario (in regard to error handling)
15:22
and why doesn't php have a stack trace additionally to the error messge… it sucks always including an error handler with debug_print_backtrace()
@bwoebi Maybe because PHP has non-fatal errors in which case printing a backtrace would really blow things up?
I have objects that the user of my library can assign tags to. During development, you would want a mistyped tag to be a clear thing, so you would want an error/Exception on unknown tags. However, the known tags depends on which related libraries are loaded, and it may not be a problem if a tag is unknown, so you wouldn't want to raise an error over it in production.
@NikiC Or would you just run throw an Exception in production as well?
@NikiC no. I would like to see the variables which were passed through the functions to see at which frame the error is really caused…
@Jasper Really depends on your system. If an invalid tag really is a normal and expected situation, then I'd return some error value (like null) and handle it where appropriate. If an invalid tag is something that should not happen, then throw an exception.
@bwoebi Yes, I know what you're saying. I'm saying that printing a backtrace in case of a notice or something like that would really blow things up ^^
@bwoebi Which is why I think PHP doesn't do it, but does with exceptions (or at least I think it does...)
user895378
@NikiC I wholeheartedly agree with you. Though, since I've been writing servers I've understood a bit more of why PHP originally went for errors over exceptions. Servers are for public consumption and you want your server applications to generate output, not errors. If PHP crashed on every error then it would never have become as popular.
15:33
I don't think that it is important whether a php site with a notice is blown up or not… A final product shouldn't include any type of errors (at least according to it's error_reporting level)
user895378
Triggering instead of throwing is an unequivocally bad coding practice. But it allows people who don't know the first thing about programming to create dynamic websites even if they can't write working code.
Hello everyone, I will need some help in this topic: stackoverflow.com/questions/17906377/how-to-compare-data-of-2-tables/
@bwoebi By "blown up" I mean "be really, really slow and produce shitloads of output" :)
@NikiC yes. and it is good to have these shitloads of output in development
@NikiC Hm... returning null would be strange to me, since it would mean relying on the user of the library to handle nulls properly. Though I (the one writing the library) would no longer be responsible for it, it would probably lead to more confusing failures. It's also hard to do since the input is coming from a file rather than a function call.
Either way, I suppose it does make sense to always throw an Exception in my application. I'll need to think about this a bit more (luckily I have a bunch of stuff to do before I get to properly setting up my error handling). Thanks for the input!
15:36
@Jasper That's always the issue with error handling. Either you throw an exception or you have to reply on the user to properly handle errors
The former is usually the easier, safer and more convenient approach, but of course it doesn't work well if it isn't actually an "exceptional" situation and errors are expected during typical operation.
user895378
@bwoebi This statement makes no sense. If your code has errors it's your fault. Not the language's fault.
user895378
The answer is to write code that doesn't have errors.
@rdlowrey Yes, I'm not denying that allowing shitty code to run on has likely helped PHP's popularity. Just saying that doing so is really bad for people who actually can program ^^
user895378
@NikiC 100% agree.
user895378
So apparently gearman isn't nearly as useful as I thought.
15:40
@NikiC Nono you got it all wrong the SAPI is awesome and having lots of globals functions around and weird constructs is really cool. We should definitely keep doing that instead of switching to a platform that is geared towards experienced developers getting things done.
</rant> * hides *
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum switching to a platform fixing the platform.
@BenjaminGruenbaum E_NOT_ENOUGH_IRONY…
@BenjaminGruenbaum As long as you are playing towards Python there and not JS, Ruby or some other total shit crap, I am agree :)
@NikiC py has not enough { and }moving it to the crap group
@NikiC No I disagree, the answer is *SOME_LANGAUGE * and not *THE_LANGUAGE_YOU_SAID * because languages tend to be better of each other, not different and good at different things!
15:42
@bwoebi but what are we left with then?
@NikiC erm… C ;-D
hi everyone
@NikiC Syntax that does not allow anonymous functions :P
(that are not expressions)
user895378
@bwoebi I don't know ... I really like Python's enforced formatting. It prevents people from writing unintelligible code formatted like a random number generator decided where to use braces
Well, I've said enough condescending but without actual content, unconstructive stupid things for the day :) Better get home and meet my wife :)
15:44
I have a php script to send a html email but I am having trouble using images in it
@NikiC and java is not soo bad… (although it's library is too full-blown)
@rdlowrey shit, I forgot there some whitespace
@bwoebi Java is the worst
since this is oldy, we have to work with tables so I am using:
<table style="background:url('http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/deleket/sleek-xp-software/256/Yahoo-Messenger-icon.png');">
but this gives error
@BenjaminGruenbaum really makes me wonder where your wife fits into the "condescending without actual content" picture
user895378
@bwoebi I'm just saying I had a terrible time reading your code because the formatting was so sloppy -- That's something Python prevents entirely.
15:46
maybe she's out of that picture because of this chat? :P
user895378
If someone's code is poorly/inconsistently formatted or not readable I tune out immediately and move on.
@NikiC I could work with it — for the small things I've done there.
@rdlowrey I like that idea (the random code formatting that is)
user895378
hehe
how is it poorly formatted?
15:48
@rdlowrey I nowhere forgot my indentation. I just somewhere forgot the formatting after the indentation…
@bwoebi Wait, are you using PHP4 constructors?!
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum Have a nice evening :)
@NikiC I find them nicier than __construct. Is this a problem? they aren't deprecated…
@bwoebi omfgwtflolwut
@NikiC I was never told that this would be a problem?
15:50
O____________o
@NikiC But my constructors are always the first method in a class — so I recognize them fast
@NikiC please explain me the problem with them? :o
@bwoebi The mere fact that they are called "PHP4 constructors" should already tell you not to use them...
They won't even work with modern PHP code
modern as in 5.3 with namespaces
@NikiC I don't use namespaces hust
of course you don't
@NikiC but this I didn't know… an argument to change this.
15:57
@bwoebi I'm happy that at least you aren't using var to declare properties ^^
@rdlowrey crawling this site is getting funnier and funnier! Order of GET parameters matters O_O
user895378
@Ocramius lol, nice.
@Ocramius haha, good one
@NikiC If I would use var, I had the disadvantage of not being able to use visibilities
I don't want to know the SQL injections that would be possible on this thing :P
unfortunately, I'm not paid to get arrested
15:58
@bwoebi you are making everything public anyways, so doesn't make much of a difference, does it? ^^
user895378
Yeah, prison tends to cramp one's coding style.
@bwoebi Ah no, I found something private actually - in a singleton class (or something similar)
tears
@NikiC I don't?
@Ocramius wow
16:04
hahahahahaha
@bwoebi How do you do this if you're using php4 constructors? 3v4l.org/U3BXG
it also has typos in post params all over the place
omg
@Jasper 3v4l.org/EqNOo works.
@bwoebi ah yes, my bad. Anyway, when I went from php 4 to php 5, I just used the php 5 constructors because that was the php 5 way. Then, php really convinced me of the elegance of a constructor name that doesn't depends on the class name
@Ocramius about what site are you talking?
16:11
@bwoebi can't tell
Just seeing that you can do non-gravatar avatars. Is that new or have I just been overlooking it in the past?
17:05
@Jasper It's not that new.
@MadaraUchiha seems I just missed it, then
17:33
Hm... is there a way to make __get/__set properties with protected visibility?
@Jasper I think it works that way by default, isn't it?
no, it's public only -- like you can invoke all magic methods from anywhere (public)
@MadaraUchiha by default they are public
@Jasper Then I probably don't understand what you mean.
Can you make an example on 3v4l.org or something?
@MadaraUchiha Sure, just give me a sec
17:36
I asked the exact question before
Jul 19 at 22:00, by Dave Chen
I have a lot of private variables within a class that I want to dynamically create, but using the magic methods __get/__set, they are put on public. How can I work around this?
@DaveChen Well, have a private array, and set variables to that
@MadaraUchiha same thing OrangePill said
we all would like property accessors……… but (sadly, this time) it required a 67% majority…
is this a good question to ?
-1
Q: PHP mail message variables

user2389087This is most likely a simple fix, I have my php form <?php $name = $_POST['name']; $email = $_POST['email']; $phone = $_POST['phone']; $to = "[email protected]"; $subject = "Quiz Entries"; $message = $_POST['email']; $message = $_POST['name']; $from = "website"; $headers = "F...

@MadaraUchiha 3v4l.org/2DQ6N
17:43
@bwoebi I would be on board with that.
@DaveChen no.
@Orangepill yes… but we php users don't have voting karma… restricted to devs&doc team only…
how about ? That might have some fallout throughout the rest of the site, though
@Orangepill poor spider :c, I hope he's okay
@Jasper I know ... that's what we are reduced to ... accessors and mutators should be a language construct imo
and decoding application/json posted data into the $_POST superglobal.
17:48
@DaveChen Looks like you were indeed looking for the same thing as me. However, protected seems less "just do it some other way" to me than private. The reason I want it is probably far more "evil" than yours :P
Anonymous
15 minutes from formatting my PC. Took me 5 hours to transfer all my files to my second laptop. With 3 USB's
Anonymous
ahhh
crazy. 15 minutes? what did you install? linux?
Anonymous
Nope. I'll format my laptop which I am using now, after 15 minutes.
sorry that was bad taste
Anonymous
17:53
@Orangepill lol. No Porn here. Just 30+ movies and 50+ lynda tutorials, files ....
@Orangepill most of the time I never post direct json, using $.ajax/$.post always uses regular form data (urlencoded)
@Simon_eQ I keep all downloads/files/documents on D:\ so I can just format C:\
@DaveChen Me too if I'm using jquery.... but I have a lot of server to server communication that is pure json.
I'll have to think about how I'll fix this. I suppose it's possible to fake some protectedness with debug_backtrace() or I might just have getters and setters (though that will cause other problems and will create an inconsistent interface between public and protected variables (I'm set on having __set/__get for public things) or heck, I might even forsake protected visibility, but I did quite like that about my system
Anonymous
@DaveChen thought about that, but it seemed impossible to me .. and didn't want to take risks
@Jasper It is possible to emulate it, but it's not worth it.
17:56
@bwoebi Whether it is worth it or not depends on the context, I think it might be in mine
@Jasper what are you losing with the private array implementation?
yeah, once you start using the debug library, it's not going to be production code :c, I'd go with a private array then, or be tedious and name out all the private variables within the class :D
@DaveChen are debug_* function not enabled by default?
can someone help me write a small thing?
@Jasper Not sure, but I know print_r is dangerous enough -- displays all members/properties regardless if it's private or not.
@Alex is it with PHP? :D
18:02
@DaveChen yes, but involves database, this is a very small thing though
wanna try? :)
So what is it exactly?
@Orangepill I don't exactly know what you mean with the array implementation, but I suppose what I lose is a consistent interface between public and protected properties, since both are meant to be used by users of the library
i have a form and I wrote a script that saves the info submitted into a database, and also sends an email message to the email address that was provided. everything so far is done. the thing is that in the email message sent, there should be two random numbers which I get with mt_rand(01990, 32000); but I want these numbers to never repeat and also to save to the database to the respective line that has the email to which it was sent. get what I mean?
@Jasper Okay I think I see why it won't work now.
@DaveChen Hm... I was thinking of using debug_backtrace() already to generate better errors (though I'm not sure at the moment if I'm really going to need it)
18:07
@DaveChen it's in my message above this one
What's it with non-repeating randomness these days? We had a question about that yesterday as well..
@Alex use unique ID and set a unique constraint on the database column for this random number, if there are errors, get another random number.
@DaveChen can you help me doing it? I'm still a newbie in php :P
what do you have so far? I imagine there's a statement like $myNumber = mt_rand(1990, 32000)...
What do you plan on using these random numbers for?
yes, exactly. I have $ticket_number = mt_rand(01990, 32000);
it's for something like a raffle
18:11
@DaveChen you should watch out for infinite loops there (i.e. don't keep trying different numbers if there's an unrelatedproblem with your database)
for the second number, I just created another variable with the same function
@Jasper haha like while(->insertFailed) ->anotherNumber that would suck
$ticket_number2 = mt_rand(01990, 32000);
@Alex sorry misread, hmm let me think
never mind with the strike ahah xD
18:14
@Alex Ah wait, the question yesterday was you as well. Why aren't you doing what we suggested yesterday?
20 hours ago, by Jasper
@Alex I still don't really see the point. In real life, when doing start printing tickets with random numbers. You create the number of tickets you want, randomize the tickets and start handing them out. That makes a whole lot more sense to for the digital application as well. (and in fact, it's what @Wesツ is suggesting)
user895378
@DaveChen hm... I apparently forgot to write "such a thing, you don't just" in the second sentence
huh, totally missed that
@Jasper yes, but I don't quite know how to do so, and I think that since I already have everything coded, this wouldn't work very well?
18:21
@Alex is it intentional to use octal numbers?
@DaveChen I thought may be doing a search to see if the number already exists in the database and if yes, it would generate another one and check again
@Alex Just make a table called raffles with data rows from one to 9999 or something, then mix up the table, when a user wants a ticket, just pop/shift the table and give it to them
@rdlowrey looooooooooooooooooooong :P
user895378
It's not about quantity, it's about 42!
@rdlowrey I'd prefer 4.2 lines
18:23
@Alex what have you done with the information people in here gave you yesterday?
@Alex There's two ways to do "random without duplicates": Retrying if the number''s already there and creating a pool of numbers first and then handing them out at random. The first might be a bit easier, but it can get really messy, as the more numbers you hand out, the longer it will take to get a new one. The second is cleaner, but you will have to specify the maximum number of numbers you are going to hand out at the beginning.
@PeeHaa I didn't know how to do it exactly.. I'm still a newbie to php :S sorry
And what do you expect of us now? To write the code for you?
As you can see you have gotten the exact same answer as yesterday
hii friends
@Jasper I understand it, thanks
user895378
18:28
@Orangepill I know you haven't subscribed to amp updates, but I added an example that's probably a bit easier to understand than some of the others.
@PeeHaa may be give me some tips in how to start it or something, like I said I'm new and some help is appreciated, you don't have to do so if you don't want to
user895378
(last time I'll hit you with updates on that)
i made a (php) form, and used php session and post to transfer the form data to another page, which gives the user an option to have a look at the data and if wrong he shall move to the main form..
now here is what i did
on page1 i made a main form say form1, when user clicks on submit, i saved the data to DB and added that id to a session, and sent that session to next page using the same id
on next page i called from db matching the same id and displayed data accordingly..
now i displayed the data (on the second page) inside a div styled with css, the logic for this second page is giving
any1?
generally, what to edit is stored in the GET variable in the link (i.e. link to edit.php?id=1123). You can do it with sessions if you want, but it will get messy if the user is using multiple tabs
18:37
@Jasper what is the best solution then?
how about the one I just gave you?
@jasper but why shall i use the get? it displays the values in the url, i do not want to show them there..
@Swati why not?
user652649
evening
@Jasper what if passwords are in the form?
18:43
@Swati you only need the id in the querystring (i.e. get variables) no more than that
the other data is in the database, so can be generated from the id
@Jasper okay suppose the id is in the url. like this.. edit.php?id=1123,
if a user changes the id to something 1089 in the url, he is not able to pull the data related to that id?
@Swati yes. It's up to you to make sure that the user can't see anything he isn't allowed to see, but that's a separate task
@Jasper anyways, suppose i send the data using get, or sessions, but my question is not that..
my question is
now i displayed the data (on the second page) inside a div styled with css, the logic for this second page is giving the user the choice if the data is wrong he can edit, and bottom of this div i added a button with code <a href="#" class="button3">Edit</a>
now my question is this, what shall be next? my target is, if user clicks on this edit button he shall be taken to main form (i.e. page1, form1) and there he shall has the option of editing the data in the same id. How can i achieve this friends?
@Swati If you want to get real fancy
@Swati Please reword rather than copy-paste. I did read it the first time and I answered based on what I thought you were asking, so reposting it isn't helping anyone
18:49
You can have JavaScript generate a <form> around your style <div>, and have your data transform into <input>s when clicked.
@Jasper when i am on second page, and the user clicks on edit button, then where shall i send him again?

here is the code of edit button <a href="#" class="button3">Edit</a>
@bwoebi E_NOT_ENOUGH_JQUERY
@MadaraUchiha I did that once years ago (the term web 2.0 didn't even exist then, so it was really fancy back then) I don't think it's going to help @Swati to make things more complicated, though
@MadaraUchiha where?
@bwoebi In response to the error you posted :P
@Jasper I guess you're right.
18:53
@Jasper @MadaraUchiha yeah, that will make things complicated..
@MadaraUchiha E_WRONG_ERROR
@Swati What's wrong with redirecting the user back to the original form page, and prefill all the fields from session?
@MadaraUchiha I think I did it on mouseover, rather than a mouse-click. It felt really fancy.
@MadaraUchiha yeah, you are right, can you explain a bit how to do that? now that is exactly what i am looking for.
@Swati Do you know how to use sessions?
If not, I suggest you read the link thoroughly, and I think I have an answer that explains what a session is, too.
18:55
@Swati You mean the edit button is on the second page in the form with all the <input>s and should save things? If so, use an input with type submit, not a link that looks like a button
@jasper
11
A: PHP: How do Cookies and Sessions work?

Madara UchihaLet's go through this: Cookies and sessions are both ways to preserve the application's state between different requests the browser makes. It's thanks to them that, for instance, you don't need to log in every time you request a page on StackOverflow. Cookies Cookies are small bits of data, (...

This one
there is no form on second page
@MadaraUchiha Using session to restore form values :|
@PeeHaa What's wrong with it?
18:57
Wrong approach. It just makes it clunky. Now you have to also keep track of session data
As a intermediate stage before perma storage
You are storing incorrect data. So it should never be some intermediate stage before perma storage
@PeeHaa How would you do it?
guys guys,, do not involve into another discussion, please get me right first,, what you say?
@Swati Ah, I was seeing second page from a user perspective (where you generally get to the viewing page first, and to the edit page only later). Anyway, do what I said from the start, make it link to edit.php?id=1121 instead of to #, where (obviously) edit.php is your edit page and the initial values are the ones it gets from the database based on that id
18:59
Just include the file with the form again and show the data
Or if correct redirect to other page
@PeeHaa You've submitted form
@jasp
And you want to give the user the ability to review the details he filled, and allow him to correct
How would you do it?
@Swati please stop being selfish, we'll have the discussions we want, even if it related to something you said. If you don't like it, don't read it or just leave this chat all together
huh? @MadaraUchiha I might have read the question wrong
Isn't it about invalid forms??
19:01
@PeeHaa it isn't
@Jasper okay i understand, the <a href="#" class="button3">Edit</a>

# to be replaced by $id = $_SESSION['last_id'];
13 mins ago, by Swati
now i displayed the data (on the second page) inside a div styled with css, the logic for this second page is giving the user the choice if the data is wrong he can edit, and bottom of this div i added a button with code <a href="#" class="button3">Edit</a>
now my question is this, what shall be next? my target is, if user clicks on this edit button he shall be taken to main form (i.e. page1, form1) and there he shall has the option of editing the data in the same id. How can i achieve this friends?
lolski
and to be redirected to last page
19:01
it seems it's something much more basic (and poorly explained)
> This second page is giving the user the choice if the data is wrong he can edit
nevermind. carry on :D
@Swati Just store all the data from the form in a session, and if the user clicked the edit button,
@Swati I'm sorry, but I'm done with this. If you can't work it out from what I've said so far, you really to put some effort into learning PHP, as apparently you don't know even the basics
redirect him back to the form page, and use the $_SESSION data to prefill all the details in the form, and he can edit whatever he wants and resubmit.
19:03
@MadaraUchiha thanks.. let me try the logic
@Jasper thanks for your help too.
@MadaraUchiha But why session? It will mess it up if I open a second tab
@Jasper How will it mess up?
GET + db seems much more logical to me
@MadaraUchiha I open view for id = 12, and view for id =13, then click edit for 12, but it will now be filled with the data for id = 13
@Jasper Mhm, question is, is that a logical situation?
Is it likely that someone would do that?
In some cases, it's likely that someone would want to submit two forms at once
@Swati is that the case?
@MadaraUchiha no
@MadaraUchiha i am making a purchase form, and user wants to purchase a single item at a time
19:07
@Swati But then, if the user wants to purchase two items, it is possible for them to have two forms open and filled, no?
@MadaraUchiha Personally, I feel you shouldn't make assumptions about how your users use their tabs/windows. Just make it work independently of how they use them, and you'll not get in the way of their workflow.
In that case, saving the data to a temporary table in the database, and referring to that with an ID is the correct approach, and @Jasper is correct.
@MadaraUchiha might be possible, as in the home page all the 6 products are displayed in seperate divs
so user can click on multiple products at the same time
@MadaraUchiha i know @Jasper is right, but again there will be an issue, suppose i transfer id with get to the second page.. the id is displayed there.. in the url, and if user changes the id in the url he can see the data saved prior to that..
@Swati In that case, use a random, hard-to-guess id.
See uniqid().
yeah, you are right.. and i can use that random id as purchase number as well..
@MadaraUchiha
19:12
Yup
@Swati I gave a brief solution to that: make sure people can't see things they can't see. Let me give a more worked out example: give them some userid in the session variables. In the database table you are using, have each row have an owner, which is equal to the userid of the person ordering. If a user requests a page where his userid doesn't match the owner, give them an error message (using random ids is possible as well, but I'd consider this cleaner)
@MadaraUchiha and it will solve another problem of mine, as suppose i use the order number 00001 for the first client, then he would have understand that the product is new (from the order number) but if i use this uniqid and generate this long number and use that as his order id then he will not be able to guess that the product is new or he is the first client
@jasper again you are right, and i had this solution as well in my mind,, thanks a lot
@tereško @ the title
19:18
it kinda gets better
waah, i really can't make it, haha, its been 3 days, poked @tereško
what ?
i'm busy playing games
yesterday was baking..
Nicely put (your comment)
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's a script that copies the close reason I pick :D
19:57
woohoo, I removed an ugly and unnecessary function from my class (and from the code that used it, including a interface that used the result of it). Always feels good to just have cleaner code like that
And what's more, this also fixed a testcase that was failing, while I never even realized I was working on code realting to the problem
can someone please tell me a website where me and friend could code together from different places
/me faints after the 18th pomodoro today =_=
@LexyFeito a website? Don't you just want VCS?
where anything
what is VCS?
Revision control, also known as version control and source control (and an aspect of software configuration management), is the management of changes to documents, computer programs, large web sites, and other collections of information. Changes are usually identified by a number or letter code, termed the "revision number", "revision level", or simply "revision". For example, an initial set of files is "revision 1". When the first change is made, the resulting set is "revision 2", and so on. Each revision is associated with a timestamp and the person making the change. Revisions can be...
20:03
@jas
no no really i know there are websites where he could be at his house and me at my house and we could be editing the same file
something like google docs but for coders
@LexyFeito VCS = Version Control System
It's a piece of software that helps you organize the versions of your code, so that you don't lose anything, and you can keep track of who edited what and when.
Google "Git" for more examples.
oh ok that is perfect exactly what i am lokking for thanks a lot @MadaraUchiha @Jasper
Finally I'm done working (kinda)
20:19
So if I want to be able to receive email like I am hosting a mailing list I need to have port 25 open on my mailserver, right?
@crypticツ For outbound mail port 25 yeah
If you also want to be able to get mail from the server using a client you also have to open either 143 or 993 for imap
@PeeHaa I thought outbound can be any port, that incoming needs to be 25 and listening for incoming mail?
probably 993 for ssl
@crypticツ Nah, SMTP uses 25 normally, and SMTP is outbound.
@crypticツ What are you trying to do in specifc?
20:24
Well my VPS host has port 25 blocked by default and I can have them unblock it for me but I need to justify doing so.
@crypticツ pick 587
I don't get how mail gets delivered though to a mailserver. If I send an email to [email protected] how does example.com receive it? Like for HTTP it goes to port 80 by default, for mail I thought it goes to 25 by default.
@crypticツ IIRC port 587 is the first choice
If that doesn't work port 25 is used
Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP) is an Internet standard for electronic mail (e-mail) transmission across Internet Protocol (IP) networks. SMTP was first defined by RFC 821 (1982, eventually declared STD 10), and last updated by RFC 5321 (2008) which includes the Extended SMTP (ESMTP) additions, and is the protocol in widespread use today. SMTP uses TCP port 25. The protocol for new submissions (MSA) is effectively the same as SMTP, but it uses port 587 instead. SMTP connections secured by SSL are known by the shorthand SMTPS, though SMTPS is not a protocol in its own right. Whi...
ok so I keep port 25 closed then, thanks @PeeHaa
20:39
Evening
Just in time @DaveRandom
good evening!
And @hakre :)
somenbody just pointed me to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_coding - which basically melts my head.
i think I will go to bed and cry then.
@crypticツ I have in the past opened tickets like "I'm paying for it and though I am not using it right now, I might decide to do so in the future and would like to be able to do so without needing to wait for you guys, so could you unlock it now" and that worked (it was on shared hosting, about cron jobs, but I imagine the idea is the same)
Anonymous
20:42
@DaveRandom does installing Virtual box, slow down my window's performance ?
@PeeHaa officially 25 is SMTP and in practice that's the only one that's guaranteed to be supported, 587 is for "new submissions" officially - so client endpoints should submit mail to their configured relay via 587, which will then relay to the next hop via 25. But in reality it's all just SMTP and there's actually no authenticity provided by any of it for anything, so it's a complete free for all. Most ISPs that block 25 also block 587.
@DaveRandom Evening. Did you see my ping from yesterday?
There was a convention used by M$ that 587 would still provide STARTTLS even if you disabled the command on 25, although quite why they though that was a good idea I really don't know
I knew you wouldn't dissappoint me @DaveRandom @crypticツ ^
@Simon_eQ Probably. You've given some of your system resources to the guest OS so windows will have less resources available to itself. But a simple *nix dev server doesn't need much in the way of resources, if you're experiencing a slowdown just tweak (lower) the resources you're giving to the guest
@PeeHaa I hate email. It is a mind-numbingly dull subject and none of it works properly
20:46
@PeeHaa and @DaveRandom what can you say about Slim?
It's one of those inadequately defined standards where people kind of make it up as they go along
@Jasper Yeh I've not looked at it properly yet, give me a few mins
@DaveRandom Of course, didn't mean to be pushy, (it was a friendly request, which you should feel free not to go into either way) was just checking if it didn't get lost in time
@JoeySalacHipolito The things I know about it you could write on the back of a rice crispie.
Anonymous
@DaveRandom thanks. just finished formatting my pc to give performance boost to both OSes
hahaha, i don't get it T_T
20:49
@Jasper no worries :-)
@JoeySalacHipolito It's been a while since I looked at it. Not sure what I thought of it
@JoeySalacHipolito (I don't know much about it :-P)
@Simon_eQ Do you mean installing VirtualBox (/ having it installed) or having a VM running
uhmm, okay, :D I gotta know it myself. XD
Anonymous
@Jasper I meant, installing VM. Aren't they the same thing?
20:52
bored and cannot be arsed coding, gaming or watching tv... so its alcohol time
@Simon_eQ VirtualBox is software that can run one or more VMs. I was making the distinction between the resources VirtualBox uses when you're not using it (next to nothing) and the resources it uses to run a VM (which have very close control over)
rereading it, I suppose you are talking about running a VM
Anonymous
Yea. I just want to use Linux system in my windows OS.
@Jasper Yeh I think Member works, although I feel there's another word hanging somewhere in front of my face that I can't quite put my finger on, I'll let you know if it comes to me. But in general I think that works.
@DaveRandom ok, thanks
(Member was in the original model as well, it's just that I now folded that class into the Type class)
@Simon_eQ The killer is usually the RAM, how much physical memory does your PC have and how much have you allocated to the VM?
IIRC virtualbox has a tendency to somewhat over-estimate the amount that *nix requires, because it assumes you will be guibooting it, which there's no real point in for a dev server (servers don't need desktop envs)
@Jasper maybe "field"? That still doesn't sound quite right though
Anonymous
20:59
@DaveRandom I have yet to install VM. But, I have a laptop with 2GB memory, (I know .. it sucks. ) I will be using probably 5 applications like wamp, notepad++ ... to compensate for the memory constraints though ..
@DaveRandom In today's world, though, it shouldn't have to be. Unless you are working on a somewhat older laptop, if RAM is really the problem, you should probably have enough RAM or buy more RAM

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