« first day (3844 days earlier)      last day (1101 days later) » 
01:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

8:13 PM
There's only one engine change that will truly kill off docblocks... and we all know what it is.
 
git push php :master
 
@Crell did you know John De Lance voiced Alarak in StarCraft 2 LOTV?
 
@MarkR Using PHP strings for comments like Python does? :-)
@Tiffany It was the only good part of that game. :-)
 
Lancie*
 
outrage
 
8:20 PM
@SaifEddinGmati I think if I had to manually whitelist allowed classes, I'd still be hungry for a proper definition of "package"
 
@MarkR not sure which comment you're outraged about XD
 
I'm quite enjoying legacy of the void
 
IMO, sealed classes and packages are entirely orthogonal issues. They don't deal with the same problem.
 
@DaveRandom this is what I would expect... honestly, I'd have a similar reaction because I've only encountered a roundabout once, at night, in Joliet, Illinois, and I had no fucking clue what I was doing or that I was on a roundabout
Until about five seconds in and I went "oh fuck, I'm on a roundabout, wtf do I do" and quickly exited it
 
8:24 PM
they can be really good, when implemented well. they can also be straight up dangerous
 
Yeah. They are something I ought to learn because they're better for the environment than traffic lights. Only problem is majority of Americans have no clue how to use one correctly
 
"give way to the left"
iot's that simple
 
@DaveRandom everyone in spain agrees about the direction you travel around one, but that is all, they are almost as much chaos here
 
(it's "to the right" here)
 
There's an intersection in my town with heavy debate of adding traffic lights to, and it was suggested a roundabout be placed instead. I remember a former coworker was strongly against it being a roundabout (because she didn't know how to use one either, but wouldn't admit it)
 
8:27 PM
@JoeWatkins my experience of roundabouts in mainland Europe in general has been one of abject terror, but I have been driving on "the wrong side of the road" and you are presumably used that by now at least?
no longer opening the door when going to change gear?
 
People going around the roundabout too fast is the main issue I have with them. If you put a stop sign on each entry point, it works a lot better.
 
people going too fast in general everywhere all the time :-/
 
@DaveRandom I make the odd mistake on unfamiliar roads, and one mistake on a familiar road ... but generally I'm there ...
 
oh wow, it's in Rowan County; hurrah for Roundabouts and Rowans :)
 
@Crell arguably, the reason for having a roundabout is a reduction in braking/accelerating which is helpful to the environment
 
8:29 PM
rowan as in trees/berries?
oh wait is that what your avatar is?
 
Also, Roundabout is playing in my head <insert JoJo reference>
 
@DaveRandom it is indeed, that being my name :)
 
a roundabout tried to kill me last week
 
ohhhhh lol I did not know that :-P
I have a really odd feeling like I just found it's your birthday and I should congratulate you but that's not really how names work
 
hah!
to be honest, I'm more surprised that you knew it was a tree
 
8:32 PM
@JoeWatkins ehh, I curbed my wheel hard enough to rip a one inch square hole in the side of the tyre the other week, on a road I drive down all the time, while I was sober and not messing with my phone or anything, just "not driving well enough"
 
I've known people for years, and pointed out a rowan tree by the side of the road, and they're like "wait, you're named after a tree!?"
 
@IMSoP in fairness, not sure I ever maximised your avatar before :-P
 
I had a blowout and smashed the front of the car on a concrete barrier ... turns out the tyres had inner tubes in them ...
 
@JoeWatkins ohhhh yeh you were saying lol I forgot about that
 
8:34 PM
meanwhile, I don't drive personally, but if I did I think it would be about 30 minutes max in any direction before I hit a roundabout
 
I have not heard of that literally ever
 
@IMSoP hit as in... hit a barrier or reached a roundabout? sorry for double ping
 
there's one road on the school run that I keep pulling out of onto the wrong side, it scares the crap out of me but apparently not enough to remember to do it right ...
 
Errr
 
@Tiffany hah! well, with my driving experience... ;)
 
8:35 PM
@Tiffany yeh the middle one goes the wrong way as well
 
@IMSoP :P
 
I have negotiated that ~20 times in my life and it's actually fine on the ground
the wrong way one in the middle is weird
 
@DaveRandom you've driven through that intersection?
 
yeh a few times, did some work in swindon a few years ago
if you are thinking of visiting, I wouldn't bother
 
@Tiffany I take it you've never been on a roundabout with traffic lights on then
 
8:37 PM
Swindon = Swine Don = Pig Hill
better name for it tbh
 
notice how close the cars are to each other, if it didn't work, they'd be a lot closer, or on top of each other ...
 
@DaveRandom I would question how you're alive, but given you Brits understand roundabouts remarkably well, I suppose it's not that surprising
@IMSoP narp
 
everyone agrees about about how they work, so they work, even when it gets complicated ...
 
@Tiffany just follow the road in front of your face, don't worry about the big picture, you only need to drive over a little bit of it
 
8:38 PM
Or I might've, I don't remember, it was night and I was trying to get out of Chicago after a concert to crash at a friend's in Rockford, it was a long night.
I was sober, too. I was also exhausted.
 
that is one low-ass bridge
I could not stand up straight under it
by 5" lol
 
I bet a lorry still crashes into it every month
 
surely not they would be driving face-first into the word "LOW" :-P
 
There's a low bridge somewhere in the east in the US with a camera, and recordings of trucks driving into it are uploaded regularly
 
@Crell I still think the auto-capture closure RFC concentrates too much on syntax vs semantics, and should more explicitly acknowledge the previous discussions on the topic
 
8:48 PM
I love how the sign is right in frame
 
particularly Bob's very explicit decision against them here: externals.io/message/98045#98069 and Nikita's list of complications here (which, admittedly, includes syntax choice): externals.io/message/104693#104738
 
9:03 PM
So who's going to explain for the nth time that method overloading is not possible
 
spin the bottle?
 
Draw straws
 
tbf method overloading is possible, if you have some sort of explicit call-time disambiguation notation, which renders the whole exercise pointless
there you go, just copypasta that message into an email and run away
 
I had a go
 
Thanks :D
Also didn't realize it was the same person
 
9:11 PM
Energy vampire
 
@MatthewBrown I loved your answer! :D
 
@JoeWatkins ok just realize the problem, its not possible to make this configurable, attribute does not actually have access to flags, bcause they are lazily loaded. attr->flags chased me down the wrong rabbit hole
 
@MatthewBrown "Best Wishes" is just... with that level of artistry in pass-ag I assume you are English?
 
@IMSoP I am less familiar with previous discussions on the topic. To what are you referring?
 
@Crell it probably got buried among my other messages, for which apologies, but I tried to summarise things here: externals.io/message/113740#113833
 
9:27 PM
Ah. (I was just reading the partials thread and my brain was still there for some reason...)

I can see about adding some more semantic commentary. Of Nikita's comments there, 2 are, I think, now resolved by the RFC and the third (if it makes the binding more complicated) I honestly cannot speak to, but Nuno may be able to. I had nothing to do with the patch. I'm just the secretary on this one. :-)
 
@Crell idk if I ever said this to you - the amount of work you have done/continue to do for PHP is insane, and I appreciate it a lot <3
 
hear, hear (or is it "here, here"? anyway, that)
 
@Crell how do the use cases look like where you think using use() is overly verbose? (context: auto-capture-closure RFC) you describe the example of the transactions, which would be de facto code executed synchronously and at most once during the processing of your called function (i.e. the closure is not persisted across function boundaries)
 
I believe the former is historically correct
"I hear that" I guess being the modern equivalent :-P
 
@Crell the main reason I'm asking about that, is because I think use() statements are in general valuable if they only capture a limited amount of variables, which is mostly the case unless the function call is a wrapper for "execute in this context" (… which I can imagine more tailored solutions for)
 
9:35 PM
@DaveRandom Where internals is concerned, it's at least 2/3 being a nudge, instigator, analyst, and finagler, not developer. :-)
 
yeh man but you got perseverance and an ability to slap a smile on and wade into the swamp that I both envy and admire :-)
and also a talent for picking worthy causes
 
Thanks guys. :-) I just hope it all plays out well, since at the moment I've only got one RFC actually passed, out of like 7 I'm nominally involved in.
 
@Crell I'm going outside while I have daylight left. When I get back I'll add an example of partial function application on methods, unless one gets added before then :)
 
either way it is a worth the effort <3
 
@LeviMorrison Roger. I was just about to go add some when @IMSoP asked me about closures. :-P
 
9:40 PM
sorry! :P
 
burn the witch
 
@Crell the discussion about sealed classes started because class Partial extends Closure while Closure is final 😄
 
@Crell I have a fear that auto capture multiline closures are mostly solving a specific problem with the sledgehammer. (i.e. at the detriment of code currently using usefully verbose multiline Closures)
 
with sealed classes, Closure would be sealed class Closure permits Partial { ... }
 
@SaifEddinGmati Everything is related! :-)
@bwoebi I guess in part I'm wondering... what IS the argument for explicit closures, generally, when every other language, regardless of static or dynamic typing, makes it implicit, except for PHP and C++?
 
9:44 PM
in my opinion, consistency with the scoping rules of the rest of the language
 
Here's an example out of some code I was working on a few years ago that I never finished:
    public function persist(CollectionInterface $collection, array $documents, bool $setDefault)
    {
        $this->conn->transactional(function (Connection $conn) use ($collection, $documents, $setDefault) {
            $table = $this->tableName($collection->name(), 'documents');

            foreach ($documents as $document) {
                $this->persistOne($document, $setDefault, $table);
            }

        });
    }
 
@Crell yeah, thats again wrapper for "execute in this context"
 
The use there is utterly pointless, but the body is too involved to be a single expression.
(Side note: I've pinged @NunoMaduro to join us.)
 
if we had something like Python's "Context Managers", you wouldn't need the closure at all, it would look something like this:
    public function persist(CollectionInterface $collection, array $documents, bool $setDefault)
    {
        with ( $this->conn->transaction() ) {
            $table = $this->tableName($collection->name(), 'documents');

            foreach ($documents as $document) {
                $this->persistOne($document, $setDefault, $table);
            }
        }
    }
 
@SaifEddinGmati not sure whether it crossed your mind to include, but DataTimeInterface is sealed too — only DateTime and DateTimeImmutable are allowed to implement it
 
9:50 PM
@IMSoP that's exactly what I had in mind when describing "execute in this context" :-D
 
@MatthewBrown same case as throwable :( 3v4l.org/2oJWC
we can make that the normal behavior for interfaces tho, as it doesn't really matter if another interface extends it, at the end, every object instance will be either an instance of DateTime or DateTimeImmutable.
 
@Crell I don't know … … well, in a language like Rust it's okay because your Closures have a very specific lifetime and it needs to match (or exceed) the captured values… it's quite visible
 
@IMSoP How does try / catch interact with that? I didn't bother reading the 400 page doc you sent me on it
 
but other languages … well, c# has it and I'm at times surprised
I don't know why.
 
and how am I meant to return something from it?
 
9:54 PM
@MarkR it basically is a try-catch-finally, you just have an object that pre-defines the different cases
and you don't need to return anything from it, it's not a callback
 
Yes, but what if I want to return something from it? i.e. an output buffer
 
oh, from the context manager you mean? (the thing inside the "with")
that can be an object that lasts beyond the with() block
something like this, I think:
$buffy = new BufferingThing;
with ($buffy) {
    echo 'blah';
}
$result = $buffy->getResult();
this was my attempt at translating the example in the Python doc into PHP: gist.github.com/IMSoP/a4e316684415413dca8ec5debf51a812
the first two files there are what you'd actually write; the third is what the compiler would turn it into, roughly
 
@SaifEddinGmati yes, without reading, probably similar, but inspired by C# rather than Python
 
yea, hack borrowed a lot of stuff from c#

basically:

```
using ($transaction = new Transaction($db)) { // Transaction implements IDisposable

} // Transaction::__dispose() is called here

function foo($db): void {
using $transaction = new Transaction($db);


} // Transaction::__dispose() is called here
```
but functions cannot take dispoable arguments or return disposable unless the mentioned attributes are used ( also, they can't be set in properties )
 
10:05 PM
there's a slight difference in emphasis: Python's context managers are more explicitly about creating a special context, rather than resource management, but the result is very similar
both are basically formalising the RAII pattern
 
@IMSoP I am little bit lost here - do you have any questions concerning the "Auto-capturing multi-statement closures" I can help you with?
 
I was mentioning what had come up in previous discussions, and why multi-statement closures were left out previously
 
@SaifEddinGmati I do not particularly like this verbatim IDisposable copy when we have proper __destruct()ors… but in general…
 
and in particular this e-mail from Nikita: externals.io/message/104693#104738
with a single expression, the exact binding behaviour isn't all that important: you can mostly just assume that there are no local variables
 
@bwoebi yea, i guess it could work with all classes implementing __destruct(), hack got rid of __destruct(), objects that need to clean up after themselves are disposable and can only be used with using ($c = new Something()) { ... }
 
10:16 PM
@im
@IMSoP This week I will be around all day - Lets have a chat tomorrow :)
 
@NunoMaduro it's tab, not enter 😛
 
@NunoMaduro works for me, it's bed o'clock in this time zone now anyway
 
@SaifEddinGmati Drupal's DB layer used a __destruct() approach for its transactions, but only because it was written before closures existed in PHP. It was written for 5.2. Had it been written a few years later I would have used closures instead.
 
well, I just implemented a DB class which offers both RAII-style and closure-style transactions
the RAII ones were easier to retrofit around existing code
context managesrs / IDisposable are kind of half-way between the two
 
10:54 PM
Ugh, why is my local compile failing again.
 
make clean/buildconf?
 
Yep, doing that now. I just hate how often I have to do it.
 
commit an if_broken_run_this.sh with it in
 
I already have a text file with the full rebuild command sequence in it. :-)
 
If you don't work often it's likely you need to rebuild completely
It's less of an issue recently since header changes are also tracked, but if build requirement change then you need to do a clean build
 
10:59 PM
Based on the error messages, it looks like something with timelib changed recently.
 
Some people thought that library would never change, but I knew it was just a matter of time.
 
Sigh.
 
At least you were just in time
 
@JoeWatkins I just added some tests for static methods to the partials branch. No other changes, they already worked fine. :-)
 
@Crell Ah yes, Derick did some bugfixes :)
 
11:12 PM
@Crell you either looked at it and it broke, or you looked away from it, and it broke.
 
Porque no los dos?
Full rebuild took care of it.
 
user1986815
11:35 PM
is there a iirc or xmpp bridge to this room ?
 
11:57 PM
@MaxMuster nope.
 
01:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

« first day (3844 days earlier)      last day (1101 days later) »