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9:01 PM
bare strings as callables are a killer feature of PHP IMHO. That's a nice thing of the callable pseudo type for quick mocks.
 
@hakre Although it would be unnecessary most of the time if we could just reference functions by name.
 
9:19 PM
```
        <script>
        $(function () {
            $('#basic-column-chart2').highcharts({
        xAxis: {
            categories: ["<?= join('\", \"', $date) ?>"],
            crosshair: true
        }
			}
		}
		</script>
```
good morning guys please what is the problem here ??? categories is expected to echo `"September", "1980"` but it just echo `"September, 1980"` without full quotation...
 
@Zorono Well, $date is probably an array with just one member, instead of an array with two strings with 'September' and '1980'
 
Worth noting that mixing logic between languages should be avoided, since it makes things confusing
 
This is super confusing anyway, you should use json_encode to pass your data.
 
Stick the logic somewhere else so that you're only echoing out the data
 
oh nvm thanks, it was my super mistake
 
9:25 PM
@IluTov well I normally call functions by their name all the time, like var_dump($_SERVER) or whatever and it just works. So I guess you mean something specific with "reference functions by name". I'm by far using $vd = 'var_dump'; $vd($_SERVER); that often, so I guess that passing the result of Closure::fromCallable(string) instead of just string() helps a lot?
 
@Tiffany something I wish I understood when I was working with JS and PL/SQL... uuugggghhhh
 
I got 99 problems.. and trying to install imagick using docker ext rather than pecl is at least 2 of them \o/
evening all
 
greetings @MarkR
 
@hakre Referencing functions without calling them. Like array_map($this->mapper, $array);. Which won't work in PHP because functions and properties can have the same name but in lots of languages that works.
 
@IluTov you mean that $this->mapper is a name of a function? If you need that, create a trait with __call and check for callable properties ... ;)
 
9:29 PM
@hakre It's not about callable properties. mapper would be a method in the current class.
 
@MarkR why are you using docker ext instead of pecl?
 
@IluTov so it would be a callable property of the class, in the broader sense. Yes, that was easy to misread.
 
Because I pasted it in one line too high and it took me 30 minutes to notice ._.
after googling about 50 pages trying to find a solution to the error message
 
@IluTov Reminds me what Derick was trolling in the PHP online meeting the last week: The dollar sign in front of variables must go :)
 
@hakre were you watching the stream or did you watch the YouTube video?
 
9:31 PM
@Tiffany I watched the recording.
 
Ah
 
@hakre Maybe this helps :) wiki.php.net/rfc/php8/merge_symbol_tables Basically same issue with methods and properties (clashing names)
 
@IluTov I once posted about this how to turn any property value into a callable, but it's most often totally useless / confusing / leads to no-where (still found it nice enough to blog about).
 
I wish we could have taken the opportunity to nerf methods and properties having different tables in classes >.> ... maybe in 9.0
 
@MarkR I think we would have to deprecate it first, but given how many years PHP 9 is away I have 0 motivation to pursue that ^^
 
9:34 PM
Your mission, if you choose to accept it... unify ALLLL the symbol tables.... or at least stop duplicates
 
@IluTov not that many ways I guess. Despite anything else, fabulous 7 had 4 years.
So if even then there comes editions or whatever that will be called, this is sort of in the same time-span with a chance to be below.
@MarkR in userspace this work by declaring everything static IIRC.
@Tiffany was your raid successful?
 
@hakre Editions would be great. But even just thinking about the discussion of what that second edition should be gives me a headache ^^
Pretty much every part of PHP has to be re-discussed.
 
I'm more thinking about if we do really-consistent-callables and how we might be able to do is_callable($this->func) where func is a normal method
otherwise we would need to wrap it in some other statement to switch the opcodes into reading the method tables rather than properties.
 
@IluTov well editions have the potential to spare that. but in practice, there were already editions, but you configure them in the runtime: opcache (with php 5.4 that was IIRC) and the next one looks to become jit (8.0 as it looks like).
There is no mechanism yet to control that per source file, and that would certainly be it.
 
@MarkR @Danack proposed something like that recently ($($this->methodName)) but I can't find it right now.
 
9:46 PM
So IMHO it's less rediscussing everything but modularizing the parser and bring it together with the runtime. But yes, that might sound easy as an idea or concept, but hard for real.
 
@hakre raid?
 
Perhaps a synthesis of what changes between PHP 2 and 3.
@Tiffany didn't you leave for some wow? Just noticed you quit and before that heard you talking about getting distracted by some wow party.
I might have not completely understand that properly though.
 
@hakre Sure but the main benefit of editions is that we can change edition 2 as much as we like without breaking everybody's code. But I don't think everybody will agree on how much these two editions should start to differ.
 
@hakre oooh, my message in YouTube chat. I was making a reference to something Derick was saying at the time, but I didn't realize the whereby audio wasn't being output to the stream at the time :(
 
Theoretically, dropping $ from variables would be feasible. But would it be smart? I have no clue.
 
9:51 PM
I kind of like having the $ for variables
 
@IluTov well it's so much baked into the language that some might argue it's cause of all suffering and others would just don't care. In any case, talking about symbol tables, each variable should be a symbol and the dollar-sign ("$") is technically superfluous.
 
@hakre it was something in reference to having feedback I think... I remember doing raids in WoW with 30+ other people in ventrilo, and if someone had feedback, it deafened everyone else...
And then there was the one time that the person causing feedback was me :S
It may have been both Derick and Danack... I can't remember
 
@Tiffany I remember it like "oh can't listen, so much noise/crowd)", right. But not long after you left. So this was the only clue left to me.
 
I didn't leave :P
I did turn off my camera, but I was still listening. Also, I haven't played WoW in several years.
 
Ah feedback in terms of audio feedback loop
@Tiffany sneaky :)
 
9:55 PM
@hakre I get that it's technically not necessary (if you ignore the fact that var names can clash with consts) but do we want two editions that are radically different? If so, we're essentially designing a new language, and that would be a gigantic undertaking.
 
@hakre yes :P
@hakre I'm still not completely accustomed to having more than one person being able to watch me, hence my exaggerated face reactions
 
@IluTov first of all: "1. One man's constant is another man's variable." (Alan J. Perlis; Epigrams on Programming)
 
what are you guys talking about? I can't make anything out.
maybe cause its 3 am and I am sleepy as hell. :D
 
We could theoretically also just introduce editions and not change much at first but do the changes in subsequent editions. However that will result in many variations of the language over time, I don't think that's a great idea.
 
P++
 
9:59 PM
@IluTov second, editions in the sense of two, would just be a start and could not make it for the prototype even. I would say this needs more iterations before it's clear what the outcome is.
 
@Tiffany Honestly, better than P++, P++++, P++++++ a couple years down the line :P
 
Editions are the opportunity to slay many a sacred cow that could really help the language
 
@Tiffany exaggerated? maybe you should do a best of cut of them, because I found yours particularly calm, not that this gets lost in translation.
 
Even things like killing off dynamic properties by default would be huge in the long term
 
P<edition>; P<edition|next|extra>; P<edition&next|extra&next>; ...
 
10:03 PM
lol that makes me think... how to get everyone to upgrade to the first edition with a lot of breaking changes - Add generics as an exclusive feature to it
 
@MarkR why? these are tremendously effective. I even started to prefer them over arrays ....
 
@hakre Nothing to stop you saying something can be extended, but extended by default was a bad idea and has caused countless errors over the years.
 
@MarkR The thing is, we can probably never get rid of edition 1. And because all versions need to interop we'll probably always have some limitations on what we can change. The less we change the higher the chance of getting rid of edition 1 (as it's easier to migrate). But then again if we're limited by the changes what's the point of editions...
 
@MarkR by demand, generics can't be an exclusive feature IMHO.
 
@IluTov I think any passing of editions would need to mandate a <x>-number-of versions-till-defaulted
 
10:06 PM
@MarkR what do you mean specifically? wasn't it that array and stdClass have some sort of same root in PHP?
 
@MarkR Defaulted maybe but can we get rid of the old ones?
Essentially, will we ever not support code that looks like PHP today?
I don't think that day will ever come.
 
@IluTov you can't win the future if you neglect the past, so no.
 
@IluTov If we release Edition 1 in 2021, I think 5 - 7 years later, anything in edition 1 should just become default in the language. So we'd slap things like strict types by default into it and say... the clock is counting
 
@MarkR if you have editions, there is no need to slap something into default actually. I think that's the idea of editions. That backwards compat is less burdensome and still progress on the syntax / language level.
 
But if you don't roll old editions into default you end up having to support them indefinitely. We barely have the resources to support 1 version
 
10:09 PM
Yes, right and very well if editions don't add any benefit, then editions is not the answer.
Because the problem is the maintenance.
 
Well the alternative is making all the changes to the main version and telling people to like it or lump it... which im generally all in favour of in the long term
 
... if not the long term is backwards compatibility, especially in terms of maintenance.
 
@MarkR Maybe, maybe not. We could also "only" support edition 1, edition n-1 and edition n.
 
Without wanting to be too melodramatic for once, I think the PHP project, and projects like it, have an ethical obligation to keep tightening up the language.
 
This way, you can use the current PHP version to upgrade to the newest edition from the second-last edition, and use it to run old PHP code as well.
 
10:13 PM
@MarkR sure, I would even say especially for a dynamic language. But take me as an example, I never fiddled much with C nor did I contribute a single line of code to core. I might have done some useful bug-reports and doc edits, writing about PHP, some SO rep-gathering etc.. but for real core the resources are limited.
So these need to be spend wisely.
 
The reality is though people will need to be brought kicking and screaming into breaking changes
 
@MarkR For which benefit if I may ask? As much as I love interruptions, there is also times where I hate them. It's the way of life, I think this needs more thoughts than just breaking vs. not breaking.
 
The big problem when not supporting all editions indefinitely is libraries. What if we only support the last 2 editions? A library 3 years old will automatically be broken.
Unless of course you use edition 1 in your library but that kind of defeats the purpose...
 
I step away for a moment and I've completely lost track of the conversation... I guess that's a hint (to continue with what I was doing... the dreaded cleaning)
 
@Tiffany Sorry for keeping you out.
 
10:16 PM
@Tiffany For us to stop talking? :D
 
@IluTov certainly not
 
@IluTov Depends on the feature set it uses I'd think. But yeah, dependencies matter. Using that old 15 year library that hasn't been maintained in 13 isn't going to work.... but that's probably a good thing, one of the best days PHP had was when mcrypt was thrown into the fire
 
@hakre no need to apologize.
 
@Tiffany good cleaning then.
 
@MarkR Certainly, but 3 year old PHP code working without issues is very realistic today.
 
10:18 PM
I'm only understanding about 50% of the conversation anyways, but I see it as an opportunity to learn more.
 
@IluTov It's a fair point, although there's nothing to say we need to do a new edition each year
 
Ten year old Java code probably still works today. I would probably go even as far as 20 year old code. ... or maybe 15 year old code.
 
@MarkR Yes, but if we limit editions to every 3-4 years, we want to make the second edition count, which again means we're faced with tons of decisions.
@Tiffany Java has changed in the last 10 years? :P
 
I suspect the way it would go is we would build up a huge list of changes for edition 1 and try to cross off as many as possible, maybe even going so far as to skip a year
 
@IluTov Let's take JS/ECMA-Script as an example for editions (maybe C++ has something similar, but my understanding of JS is better): The base definition of the language always stays. It's even defined in it's entirely level of awkwardness, yes that very first version written within two weeks and then released.
 
10:20 PM
Generics were added at some point between when I learned it in high school (2004-2005) and now.
 
The editions came much later and all add on top. From my perspective this is adding up on the syntactic sugar (a.k.a. the language), and depending which runtime you are able to find you can make use of them. So it's less that (JS code writing) users are in fear of having anything broken, it's more like that they strive towards a platform where they can get shiny new things.
 
A caveat of JS is transpiling and the insanity that brings
 
This keeps the horde alive and walking. Is that sane in terms of a program language design? Who knows, I think dynamic languages are too new that there is really much literature about these topics.
 
Yup... Typescript is kicking JS's ass all over the place
 
Yes, all these dynamics are healthy I guess.
 
10:25 PM
Howdy, PHPeeps
 
Someone posted a video earlier, a talk from uncle whoever-it-was talking about how the eventual outcome of problems in software, is the industry being legally regulated. I suspect people migrating towards stricter, better protected languages is inevitable,.
 
@MarkR Isn't another typed variant of Javascript WASM, just more on the lower level?
 
If you face a fine and having your name struck off a qualified-persons register if you screw up your software... are you going to choose to work in the language that let's you do all kinds of silly stuff, or are you going to choose the one that prevents you from doing stupid things by mistake?
@hakre I'm not all that familiar with web assembly other than it exists and is fast as heck
 
Crikey. And I'm still trying to come to grips with PSR-12
 
@MarkR Me also not that deep, but the aspect I remembered is that JS is slow b/c it does not have integers. So one ground-breaking step was to cast to integers to tell the parser/executor that this integer, benefit from the type. And then the rest of the toolchain. E.g. compile C / C++ / Rust etc. just into WASM and let go. Turns out, yeah, fast.
 
10:37 PM
Interesting, I didn't realise AssemblyScript was a thing
 
@MarkR Honestly, I don't think this is a problem (computer) language, e.g. whichever it will be. Not saying that type-safety isn't a nice feature. Not saying that a tainted mode like Perl has, isn't worth in data-processing languages. But all these kind of nice things don't help with business problems. E.g. is it taken care of everyone knows what he/she is doing. Just the complicated stuff. You can call for language and syntax wars, it's often only distracting.
(with you and don't mean you personally, perhaps more the more anonymous we)
 
I consider type safety a way to better express the intent of the programmer. But yeah, it certainly won't help with business problems, although in my experience it allows more time for solving those problems than dealing with quirks and having to validate data half a dozen times in defensive coding
 
The brightest outlook I found relatively recently is to effectively declare behavior undefined. This gives a lot of flexibility. And with tests, it is possible to put the defensive part into tests, not affecting production. E.g. in PHP that is the assertconstruct that can do this. For your own code you don't need it, but e.g. if you release a library, this can take away most of the burden.
 
Is anybody still reading the attribute syntax thread? xD The same 3 people are sending all the e-mails.
 
@IluTov what are attributes? and why do attributes need a syntax at all? :P
 
10:48 PM
@IluTov At this point I'm just waiting for the vote myself
 
@IluTov :P
 
@IluTov I read it instead of being productive
 
@Girgias Haha sounds familiar
 
I especially need to get back into revisions for resits >_>
 
"What do you mean I failed my maths exam?" ... "Uh, Sir... you appear to have replaced ALL arithmetic operators in your working with this odd... '@@' symbol"
 
10:53 PM
@Girgias just make your own proposal, e.g. [@Attr] was not suggested yet.
 
@MarkR God I wish there were arithmetic operations :') Also I thought I did well on a subject and then failed :( I think I'm coming to the conclusion that I really like some parts of mathematics, but I'm just bad at them
 
wasn't there already a vote on attributes so this is done already?
 
@hakre Brrrrr, if I propose one I think I'll just go the dumb keyword route as it seems so similar to the "use" keyword when importing classes
@hakre Yes but no
 
@Girgias this needs an ini setting then.
 
@hakre Someone else proposed a declare statement for it :')
 
10:58 PM
@Girgias sounds reasonable, and actually not mutably exclusive. the ini setting could control the name and behavior of the declare statement.
 
@Girgias Well that sucks a tad =\
 
@MarkR Yeah :( I mean I managed to clear most of the ones I don't like because there was some über scaling done
 
apropos attributes, any recommendations for a PHP comment parser/editor? (as a PHP lib)
 
@hakre Parser/editor as in how? Something like that? github.com/phpstan/phpdoc-parser
 
11:29 PM
getmxrr always returns true on Alpine linux ・ *Network Functions ・ #79944
 
11:42 PM
30 minutes and 8 container rebuilds later trying to work out why my render task was failing... turns out the thumbnail generator aims for 5 seconds in and my test clip was only 4.. fml
 
ouch, heh
well at least you identified the cause :-P
 
@IluTov maybe, thanks for the link, didn't knew about it. I'm fine if it's less with types whatever, but perhaps doesn't hurt either.
 
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