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12:01 AM
That's alright
 
Pretty much anyone can get a vote on PHP if they care to. Contribute like, 2 docs patches and ping someone in this room to approve them, then just ask for karma, and it's nearly guaranteed...
I guess that's limited to those who have an account on Stack Overflow with enough karma to chat.
 
Was honestly quite surprised when I got voting rights tbh
 
I wish more community members would do it.
 
I was expecting it to take months or years
 
@MarkR Like I said, it's really easy.
It's so easy it ought to be abused, but I don't see it happening.
 
12:05 AM
I discovered my pet hate has migrated itself to C now... having two things named pretty much the exact same thing
GdImage* (Internal Class) and GdImagePtr (Libgd) Makes coming up with function names a PITA
 
 
1 hour later…
1:13 AM
@LeviMorrison she actually has quite a bit of PHP experience and has some pretty strong ties to the community. Hence why
 
@LeviMorrison I always used to think the same, but then said community kept reminding me that would probably not end well :P
 
I did 4-5 docs patches in the past one.. two-ish? years ago.. and I think I have 3? commits to php-src
I always thought I'd need 'karma' or whatever if I'm actually doing regular contributions to the source though
on that note, /me finds bed. later11
 
 
1 hour later…
2:27 AM
Add Phar to fuzzer coverage – #78571
no error printing if parent class's __destruct not defined – #78570
 
2:45 AM
\o
 
3:05 AM
I asked php.barcelona if they have any schemes that could provide me with a ticket, if they don't, I can't go ... /cc @JayIsTooCommon @ircmaxell
 
Discontinue use of c-client library – #78572
 
4:03 AM
Good morning
 
4:48 AM
morning
 
5:13 AM
@LeviMorrison i understand that more votes in theory means more a more representative vote, but is there any reaping of inactive community members with voting rights ? 2 docs patches and you can vote for life?
 
5:45 AM
morning
@Danack yesterday's evening I was able to get Hugo working with example RFC in MD. Used default.css and wiki.css for POC. Still there is a lot things to do but it get me to better understand what Hugo is capable of. The RFC I have made rendering has TOC (missing css) and even edit and history links.
Working with go templates is quite easy and I found out we could develop own theme for all sites build like that in a separate repo mounted through submodule like it's usually done for all Hugo sites - this leads a repo like with RFC's only to contain MD files and one config file for Hugo
Maybe some Makefile to simplify working with Hugo.
I'm on my way to work now but as soon as I get there I'll push the changes.
Automatic build of GH Page is not done yet but possible to use locally with one command
 
 
1 hour later…
heyo
3v4l.org agrees
 
morns
 
7:33 AM
@beberlei yep, it doesn't refcount properly
oh that just looks like a bad debug info handler though
 
@JoeWatkins the problem is difference between xmlNode and xmlNsDecl in libxml, dom handles both as regular attributes
 
i will try to fix
 
@Danack PHPRFCBot is still tweeting about RFC's "In Draft" > twitter.com/PHPRFCBot/status/1174815221354942464
 
7:57 AM
@Trowski eww, that's going to be a fun one ... can have a look at it later
 
misprision neglect or wrong performance of official duty
XSS via file name – #78573
 
morning
 
8:27 AM
i built a crawler to count the number of mails to internals every year from news.php.net:

2003 6697
2004 7452
2005 7102
2006 5867
2007 7085
2008 8115
2009 4160
2010 4582
2011 5985
2012 7298
2013 6481
2014 9087
2015 9912
2016 7549
2017 3971
2018 2188
2019 3586
the types of conversations changed, early the list was used for "commit reviews + comments", that isn't happening anymore
 
@beberlei Yeah, and for past few years other means of communications are also being used quite a lot, like Slack, Discord and R11 etc.
 
@brzuchal yes, I pinged him again...
@brzuchal sounds good, can you add all of those details to the issue page you opened so that if other people want to get involved they can see them there? For obvious reasons I might not have that much time to get involved myself in the near future.
 
its hard to make anything of the numbrs, they could also say because of the php7 related overkill in communication, withdrawl happened from the list explaining the sudden drop in 2017+
 
@LeviMorrison that take effort...
 
8:43 AM
@mega6382 for internals collaboration?
Happy Friday, roomies. :-)
 
@brzuchal I'm feeling a lot better now - shall we reschedule the podcast for next Monday at the same time?
 
@salathe no, just discussion about general stuff that also happens on the internals mailing list.
 
@Derick sure, perfect
 
I do have another call at 4 BST / 5 CEST , but we shouldn't need more than 30 minutes
I'll email the template and questions in the next few mins
 
8:53 AM
@Danack Yes, will do that in the evening, add what wrote in a form of TODO list in README.md and add Makefile and it's usage in there as well
@Derick Thank you
 
need to read the RFC again first ;-)
@NikiC You up recording one on the Union Types soon?
 
9:11 AM
TEST 14762/14642 [2/4 concurrent test workers running]
go home php, you're drunk.
 
cmb
@Stephen, this could be caused by redirected tests, see qa.php.net/phpt_details.php#redirecttest_section
 
yes, it is
 
fair enough.
 
@Derick you are probably backed up with topics, but my DOM RFC is now fixed in scope if you are up for something less far reaching :)
i might go to vote in the next few weeks, as feedback has dried up
 
still. @NikiC I have apt pkgs required and configure line for a pretty vanilla Debian 10, formatted to be readable/diffable (i.e. one package/config option per line) it's about 100 lines - adding one for various platforms/distros could get quite verbose - would it be better to have one them in /scripts/dev/*.sh (or even .bat/.ps for windows ones, if you're a masochist I guess )
 
cmb
9:25 AM
buildconf && configure --enable-snapshot-build && nmake
That's really masochistic ;)
Ah forgot: at first:
phpdeps_sdk -u
 
also, (maybe I should have asked this on the list?) what's your definition of 'a "reasonably large" build' ?
 
@Stephen Maybe
Might be a bit hard to customize in a script?
I guess you could accept additional args that get passed to configure
So yeah, submit a PR with that variant?
@Stephen gist.github.com/nikic/661d3cd80054f33f64c435204ce77b1e is my configure line. So something along those lines (minus ldap)?
 
@Stephen That looks pretty extensive
 
Morning all. Internals Q, is there any policy for / against splitting things across files? Specifically I'm wanting to keep the GD object stuff tidy by putting it in a separate .c file to the already-quite-large gd.c
 
9:39 AM
I'll compare and see what im missing from yours. I deliberately avoided things where patches are required to use the 'native' deb libs (e.g. db4, qdbm) - they're generally just path issues, but I figured this isnt intended to be for all purposes, it's meant to be a quick start, right?
 
@Stephen yeah
though if you feel like it, you might try to see if the config.m4 can be adjusted to make those work natively :)
 
@NikiC I'll have a look. I was a little surprised stuff like that isnt upstreamed from Debian devs?
 
10:09 AM
@cmb nmake snap! *
 
cmb
nmake snap is not necessary (actually, I almost never use it for developement)
 
This is only 50% a joke: we should ask all release managers candidates "do you understand other people may view things differently than you do?"
 
and they should answer with one hand over the bible :P
 
cmb
@MarkR, the advantage of 1 big file is that the compiler may be able to optimize better. Probably irrelevant for MSVC PGO builds; don't know about others. But I agree that gd.c is a bit too large.
@Danack, I understand that other people may have erroneous views. :p
 
10:24 AM
I heard someone say once that everyone's opinion is equally valid, oh how I laughed
 
Everyone's opinion is valid to them......just not to a wider group.
 
@Danack maybe you need an oath :P
 
Certain people believe that the world is flat and that man-made climate change isn't a thing. Doesn't matter if it's a sincerely held belief, they're still wrong :P
 
@MarkR do I need to trot out the wrongness gif again.
was it a gif? I don't remember.
 
Is it a funny one?
 
10:30 AM
 
:D
So I'm thinking of a new concept, snackexchange, because I've eaten all of the malteasers, mars bars and galaxy out of my celebrations box, and i've eaten all the fudges, dairy milk and twirls out of my heros box... and I feel there should be a place where I can exchange the bounty's, twixes and snickers for actually nice chocolates.
and it turns out i should have just googled, because it already exists on Reddit
 
I literally just misread Zeev's email as "who fiercely opposed the recent new
**breakfast** trend" and I wondered if avocado toast or whatever it is teenagers eat now had finally hit internals@
wait.. I haven't lived in a western country for a while, so I might be misremembering this. Bounty = coconut + chocolate, twix = caramel and shortbread biscuit + chocolate and snickers, GOD DAMN GIVE THEM TO ME NOW.
 
is avocado toast actually a thing? :S ... I am very sheltered.
Yes Stephen those are the ones :P
 
yes yes, good send them now.
 
10:36 AM
how many weird Thai desserts do you want in exchange?
 
Will try to send them as an attachment but the last time I did my scanner took a week to repair
 
very occasionally, being me pays off quite nicely :)
 
@JoeWatkins you made sure you confirmed before posting that right
 
yeah
 
some sneaky SOB might try to steal your code lol
 
10:40 AM
Unless it was an unlimited usage one and now everyone is going free \o/
 
@MarkR or it turns out that the code is just /THANKYOU_.+/
 
I wonder if I register with the name abba and use THANKYOU_FOR_THE_MUSIC hmmm
 
_FOR_ALL_THE_FISH maybe?
 
Right now Joe is probably writing an email telling them to look out for a hundred different thankyou_xxx codes xD
 
10:50 AM
Someone (anyone) help me out here - is there some push from parts of the core team to actually make php "a strictly typed language"? I've seen people make this (to me at least) slippery slope claim before, but I always dismissed it as hyperbole and paranoia
 
@Stephen Depends on what you mean by that
There is certainly a push to make it an optionally typed language
 
@Stephen imo, no. The only thing people are pushing for are to make things that are probably mistakes be notified about, rather than the engine attempting to guess what the programmer intended.
There is a separate concern about BC breaks 'happening' too fast. But those concerns appear to be coming mostly from people who have decade old applications to maintain (which is fair enough). But I don't hear people in the community who are writing applications now complaining about too many cleanups - quite the opposite, most people I speak to want far more.
 
@Stephen Force it? Nah. But there's plenty of people (myself included) who see strict typing and more prominent error handling as a powerful tool in writing easier to understand and less error-prone software. PHP tends to try and make things work as best as it can, and while the results of that "just making it work" are defined, they're complex and not always intuative.
 
Including some I disagree with/can't see happening.
 
when you fire http://googlle.com it's open localhost..
it 's strange.
 
10:59 AM
It's going to be an awful slog, but I really do think PHP 8.0 ought to be in no small part the "fixing past mistakes" version.
 
@NikiC right - that's how I'd interpreted things - I didn't remember any "once we have mixed type we can force all vars to declare a type" or anything.
 
when you fire googlle.com it's open localhost..
it 's strange.
Does anyone have idea why this happens?
 
@Danack I would suggest talking to more people. There are plenty out there saying they dislike this approach
 
@Dhruv Please do not repeat your question in such a short time frame
If somebody is here and wants to help they will
 
11:03 AM
morfriningday
 
Hey, there's been no rebecca black so far today
 
@Dhruv this looks decidingly like a scam. Why isn't it?
 
@Danack I would agree. I can understand "this is work to fix" and maybe even asking for official deprecation in v8, and delaying removal/exception until v9 but I really don't follow "this is a legitimate style in 2019, I want to keep using it".
 
There's been no specific calls for removal Stephen, the main argument revolves around opt-in and what should be defaulted
 
@ircmaxell It is not? Now I am disappoint
 
11:04 AM
Have either of you talked to anyone from the Laravel or WordPress communities?
 
@MarkR I know, people have been complaining about it on the main site and everything :-/ stackoverfiow.com/questions/58026813/…
 
stackoverfiow... fiow?
Clever of them to capture that
 
@ircmaxell personally I always don a hazmat suit before even talking to a WP user on the phone, so most of what they say is muffled :P
 
@ircmaxell I wan to know why this happened, Have you any idea? have you tried this ?
 
@Dhruv Now stop asking the same question over and over requestable.pieterhordijk.com/O2uu1x
 
11:07 AM
> X-Powered-By: PHP/5.3.3
 
@Dhruv please tell me why this isn't a scam
 
I was under the impression that most of wordpress and its plugins was a hellscape of bad design, I remember it wasn't too long ago that they thought SSL was the same as code signing
 
@Stephen and yet you say "nobody does this in 2019"...
 
@ircmaxell not that much tbh. I can imagine the difficulties WP people would have, but am hopeful their quite good upgrade tools would be able to help their users to upgrade as appropriate. I didn't see how it would affect the Laravel people, who have BC breaking changes anyway between versions.
 
@ircmaxell im not saying nobody does it - clearly they do, I'm saying I don't understand why they would do it.
 
11:09 AM
@MarkR That was coming from WP itself. The plugin ecosystem is mostly in a much worse state even than that
 
the_website() or die;
 
@ircmaxell is it scam ?
 
@Stephen then maybe it would be worth building a bridge to understand rather than force a perspective
 
He's being reasonable again. Get him!
 
I'd be willing to bet 90% of it is "because they don't know better" ... PHP always had a tiny barrier to entry
 
11:11 AM
@Dhruv last chance. What you are doing appears very inappropriate and either a scam or spam. I am asking you to justify why you are posting in this room about it
 
@MarkR you say that like it's a bad thing...
 
It's not a bad thing per-se, but it has consequences for the output.
 
I'm all for making things generally saner, but the solution to "they don't know better" is education
 
Yes, which is why I think things like throwing exceptions with error messages is preferable to hidden warnings etc.
 
it's a fine line to walk though, I don't pretend I have any sort of practical advice
 
11:14 AM
user image
3
 
@MarkR I am generally agreed, however what many users (wordpress hobbyists and the like) will see is something that used to "work" and now WSODs
 
@MarkR do an experiment. Reach out to some devs who say they prefer it, ask them to develop with a throwing error handler for a bit. And then ask if they found that useful
 
Thanks GitHub! :P
 
@ircmaxell I've consulted with companies where, the moment they installed a global unsuppressable error handler, they started discovering legitimate problems.
I remember when I first used the throw new \Error(...) bit in set_error_handler, that was a wake-up call
 
@ircmaxell It's not a spam or scam I just want to know if any one have aware with this or not, any ways thaks to response and specially thaks for @PeeHaa
 
11:16 AM
no doubt, the argument is not against doing it, more just against unilateralism
 
@DaveRandom honestly, I am against it.
 
well sir, I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it :-P
(by which I mean, I'd like to hear why but I don't have time right now as I have to do some real work)
 
@DaveRandom Who's death?
 
@PeeHaa big bloke in the black robe, huge scythe, kinda thin, you can't miss him
 
:D
 
11:27 AM
Broken shared build – #78574
 
@ircmaxell when I was working with an agency full time, a good chunk of their clients used WP. A number of their senior staff were WP committers. Whenever concepts like "hey maybe you guys should consider a better approach to X" came up the response was always dismissal and pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2019/06/25/…
pdo/actual prepared statements? but then we can't support PHP from 7 years ago.
some kind of sanity in how plugins work? but then we can't run the unmaintained plugins our business relies on
people love that "when all you have is a hammer, every thing looks like a nail" joke about php developers - I'd argue it's more accurate with WP using php developers.
 
@beberlei No, I'm happy to talk with you about it. It's still on my list to do, and I've only two in the bank right now
 
and you know what, if they want to use those tools, that's fine, that's their prerogative, but deliberately not improving the language, to coddle a subset of developers who historically don't upgrade quickly anyway is just bonkers to me.
 
IMO if your primary concern is catering for the least common denominator, you're guaranteeing failure. Aim to be a broad church, but even a broad church needs some level of foundation... and IMO that foundation needs lifting.
 
I honestly wonder how things like register globals or magic quotes were ever deprecated/removed now. Changing <? to <?php, or declaring a variable to null/0/''/false before use is not a fundamental change to the program logic. But changing every part of your code that just assumes ?foo=1 means $foo is available? or that it's somehow safe to just use in an SQL query as-is?
 
11:41 AM
Narrator: They thought they were safe... they were wrong.
 
@Trowski Use it for all sorts, but my pet project at work is a chat bot. I'm running into a small issue at the moment where sometimes blocking operations are stopping the websocket connection from dispatching incoming message events, but that's rare and I might just move the websocket reader to a separate thread and push messages into a processing queue
 
@Stephen hence why the sentiment of "nobody really opposes this" isnt really true
 
The bot is doing a fair amount of interval-based operations, checking health alerts, new releases, etc.
 
@Stephen actually, they are just starting to get momentum upgrading. It is a huge effort on their side and it's finally getting traction
@Stephen and the off thing about that statement is that it relies upon the view that "they are doing it wrong". And sure, we all can point out tons of things that we would do differently. But they are the single most successful piece of OSS PHP code in the world. It seems a bit odd to say and hence should be ignored...
 
@ircmaxell mcdonalds is arguably the most successful "food vendor" in the world, they're profitable, but they are without doubt doing "food" wrong.
popular !== good, or correct.
@ircmaxell I think you misunderstand me - I understand a project as big as that, takes time to make changes, especially across the barren wasteland of unmaintained 3rd party plugins. I absolutely understand that there is effort involved to fix it. And I understand the sentiment "hey this is a big change, can we make this change a warning in v8, and delay removal until v9", but not "this thing that is trying to tell me something is unexpected, is actually just how I roll, live with it chumps"
 
11:52 AM
Absolutely, however the argument that is being made for exceptions here is "nobody writes code in 2019 thinks it is a bad idea" and yet I have shown you at least 2 examples of LARGE communities that counter that
And as @DaveRandom said, if you disagree with their perspective, the solution isn't forcing it on them, it is educating them.
 
Do they think it's a bad idea, or do they just want to limit their exposure to having to do more work
 
@MarkR is there meaningfully a difference?
 
@MarkR thats kind my point - not fixing something isnt the same as doing it "wrong" from scratch
 
@ircmaxell That seems like a rather unfair view of the Laravel community
 
@NikiC what does?
 
11:55 AM
Assuming that's the 2nd community you're referring to?
 
@ircmaxell if they accept it's a bad idea (or even just not a good idea), then its a case of are they willing to fix those previous "mistakes", and if so how long will that take? if they don't think it's a bad idea (or even that its a good idea) then IMO it's just WP living up to the stereotype of YOLO
 
For all the flak that Laravel gets in here, it's certainly in no way comparable to WP, and certainly far, far above the level where things like undefined variables are a concern.
 
@NikiC oh, I am not trying to compare it to WP except in the sense that both communities actively don't write code strictly (by the standards being set in this discussion)
 
@ircmaxell do you mean the community at large, or the core project itself?
 
@ircmaxell Depends on what you mean by "this discussion". They might not be the biggest fans of "type all the thing", but I haven't seen any indication that "woohoo undefined variables" is a thing in the Laravel community
 
11:57 AM
@NikiC and I have read publicly from a number of community members about them being opposed to these sorts of changes
@Stephen community at large
 
I noticed Symfony was seemingly going all-in on type hints in V5
 
@NikiC not "woohoo undefined variables" but "PHP is a forgiving language that has a low barrier to entry, and they don't want to change that.
 
Maxell, you make it seem like these changes are going to make it harder to code in, if anything it's going to make it easier because it's going to be more explicit in intent.
 
@ircmaxell it sounds like those are people who would listen to "hey this is why this change makes it easier to spot mistakes/bugs earlier".
 
anyone got a good step by step guideline on namespaces prefereably with mvc development?
 
12:02 PM
@Naruto Step 1. Use them. Step 2. Done. ?
what specifically are you unsure of?
 
at this moment, pretty much everything, kinda tilted atm ^^
 
@MarkR I believe it will, yes. PHP today is insanely forgiving. The fact that execution continues on these types of errors is a feature IMHO not a bug. And while I do mostly write notice-free code, there are sometimes cases where it is hard to know ahead of time the behavior (think templates, and procedural code). In those cases, ignoring a variable that doesn't exist often allows value to still be shipped
 
are you using an existing framework/library ?
 
I think you're in a very small minority that considers 'code execution even after an error' to be a positive feature :-)
 
@ircmaxell with the presence of ?? '' im not sure I agree that's a valid argument for templates any more
 
12:05 PM
@MarkR as a development tool, I think there is value. In production though, there are just so many edge cases in the current design of the language.
If you want to make things saner, get rid of variable-variables
 
You say that like it's a good thing... the fact that there are so many edge cases is a big reason why strict typing and forceful errors are a good thing.
 
@Stephen so, now, litter every access with a conditional because some are against undefined variables being null? That's an odd trade-off to me ...
 
@Stephen no
 
@MarkR I meant to mention this before. A client uses a (paid) php subscription list tool, and while trying to get it into a repeatable setup for different environments, etc I've come across some pearlers. Who'd have thought that short(){...} was a "2 way encrypt function"
@ircmaxell but undefined's aren't specifically null, are they? and honestly regardless of that point, IMO, yes - it still shows that you deliberately intend to use a variable that is conditionally defined.
I still say we need declare(sloppy=yes) to solve this
 
@MarkR that is an opinion. And is equally as valid as other opinions that say "this has worked exceptionally well for decades, but this will cause a lot of noise and challenges for relatively little gain (signal to noise)
@Stephen they are null (by definition of null)
 
12:10 PM
@ircmaxell aren't undeclared variables just the default for the type they're inferred as upon use?
 
@ircmaxell they are undef
 
@NikiC they are null from any possible userland perspective
 
@ircmaxell An old petrol car may have worked exceptionally well for decades, and left unchecked it would still continue to do so for another 20 years... but petrol cars are being banned because as soon as you pull back and look at the bigger picture, you see hurricanes are causing hundreds of billions in damage and the ice caps are melting
 
@MarkR then outlaw PHP and force everyone to switch to Kotlin
@MarkR and also, as I tried saying before, the success of notice-riddled code seems to disprove the underlying claim that it is dangerous to the degree that a "public intervention" is needed, as is being pushed here...
 
@MarkR ...but I like my truck...
And morning all!
 
12:20 PM
@StatikStasis Sorry ol chap, you're going to need to get something that runs on electricity or hydrogen in the next 20 years
Unless you live in America, where the lobby is too strong
 
youtube.com/watch?v=jKv_N0IDS2A how about one of these
 
@ircmaxell given WP's security track record, I'd say they've succeeded in spite of being riddled with notices and otherwise shite code, not because of it, and doesn't disprove that it can be dangerous at all.
 
@beberlei I just re-read the mail that you linked to Z of his, absolutely disgusting
 
@Stephen but that also doesn't prove that adding those checks will improve anything
 
12:36 PM
something something prove a negative something something
 
@ircmaxell you can distinguish between variable has been forgotten to be defined and variable is allowed to be undefined here
as in: the typo catcher
 
@MarkR it isn't about proving a negative. It is about saying there are tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of lines of code that seem to contradict the statement that "the only way to write safe code is if it is this way"
 
And if that is what anyone had said, you might have had an argument, but it isn't, so you don't \o/
 
@ircmaxell it's not foolproof, someone can still write echo $myvat ?? null instead of $myvar, absolutely, but it would catch a lot of simple mistakes, and I don't think I've seen anyone argue yet, that catching the mistaken case is worse for new users?
 
@bwoebi totally. And that's why we have notices in the first place. But to say "we must stop all execution in production because you might have made a typo...
 
12:41 PM
ah, yeah.
agree.
 
@Stephen I do not know of any purges.
 
@bwoebi but this discussion hasn't been about that. It has been that "people must use exceptions because to not is to allow mistakes to be possible"
 
@ircmaxell in business logic maybe not. But on the view layer that's typically harmless
 
It's not "stop all execution because there might have been a typo" it's "Stop all execution because there is a dangerous statement that requires the programmer to specify explicit intent if they wish to use it"
 
@bwoebi $100 says > 50% of the apps using this "feature" make no such distinction
 
12:43 PM
@Stephen actually, by that logic, making it an exception is making bugs harder to find since there would be no notice or anything that there was a misspelling there. Only a part of a view that didn't populate. Isn't that worse than today?
 
it's the sudo to the rm -rf /
 
@MarkR but my point is signal to noise. My assertion is 99% of the time it's not a "dangerous statement" but something that is perfectly well defined behavior given phps semantics. The 1% is definitely worth helping, but is it worth the cost to do for everything?
 
@ircmaxell the view would only be partially generated for people who don't use output buffering, and output directly. which is going to affect them for other problems also.
 
@Danack only if display_errors is on
 
@ircmaxell IMO, yes, it is worth it. Software doesn't work in isolation 99.999% of the time. Today's ignore-errors is tomorrow's threatening sextortion scam because some website leaked everyone's names and emails.
 
12:47 PM
@ircmaxell If you're talking about existing code, that may be right. But for code being written, the 99% is on it being an error, not an intentional use.
 
@NikiC for the way some people write code, sure. For the way others definitely not
 
@ircmaxell this whole theory is based around the idea that the variable in question could conceivably be validly-undefined - so they're what, ignoring all the notices until that one time they "know" the variable should be defined?
 
@Stephen That as well
 
@Stephen "hmmm, this isn't working, let me search the logs for this variable. Ohhh, whoops"
 
@ircmaxell in a log full of "Undefined variable: %foo" how is that one meaningful time going to stand out?
 
12:49 PM
@NikiC I wouldn't say 99%. yeah, maybe after adding the ??'s and isset()'s to silence them... but often enough the first working draft of code is working despite some notices
 
@Stephen in the cases we are talking about, it wouldn't be one time. It would be every time. Which is sort of the point
 
IMO notices and warnings are almost absolutely useless. It's not even closing the stable after the horse has bolted, it's whispering "hey maybe you want to close the stable door?" in a busy restaurant 2 months later by which time the horse is already half way to Mexico
4
 
@ircmaxell But if you expect the variable to be defined every time, there's no reason to use ?? '' then, so you'd get told exactly what's wrong, the first time.
 
@Stephen except that it became standard practice to do that everywhere because otherwise templates became too brittle because we want them to display rather than abort
 
Fun fact: Dmitry voted for exceptions on undefined variables ^^
 
12:52 PM
@ircmaxell that's a bad standard practice, arguably as bad as just ignoring notices about undefined variables.
 
(Fun because it's strictly opposed to Zeev's view.)
 
@Stephen and arguably as bad as causing code to fail because there's a chance it may be a mistake
 
The good news is, even if the vote fails, we'll still have actual proof that the majority of internals, and the vast majority of the wider ecosystem, is in favour of exceptions on undefs :-)
 
@ircmaxell but if you intentionally want to use a conditionally defined variable, you can absolutely tell the engine that you don't care if it's undefined, for that single case.
 
Exactly right Stephen, the language provides ample features to go "I know this is dangerous, I explicitly want to use it"
 
12:55 PM
@NikiC so... how long after the seemingly-likely warnings for undef, will an RFC to throw on undef, targeting php.nextMajor, with a deprecation warning in php.nextMinor be ready for voting? :P
 
@MarkR vast majority of people you talk to. Not necessarily of the wider ecosystem
 
Again with trying to prove a negative. I have the mailing list vote, and I have not one, but two public polls, and for what it's worth, I have anicdotal evidence as well, although that counts for little
 
Whatever.
 
Division by zero is looking to become an exception. Bummer.
 
Why are you worried about that Levi?
 
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