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1:00 PM
Because my last employer definitively used the INF behavior of division by zero in some math routines.
 
I thought @NikiC had settled on adding fdiv for easy migration?
 
I don't think that's settled, but I am not reading Internals routinely, so I may have missed it.
 
I don't think I saw it on there, I just got the impression it was so small he was going to add it regardless.
 
copy() always report an error with a custom stream wrapper – #78575
 
Should I be checking for user credentials at every request? What I do when a user logs in is that I store the user info in session and use that session variable to determine if the user is logged in on other pages.
But when the user tries to make a change in the system, should I check the database if the user is valid (and have permission)? Using the session for only log in/out processes (or just viewing pages) make sense, but for making changes in the system, I think I should also be checking the database. Does that make sense?
 
1:04 PM
Hello
I have a questions about tomcat and php
 
@ircmaxell has anyone ever discussed/proposed wider community polling for changes? I mean, Brexit doesn't really give the concept of a non-binding poll a great reputation but, I wonder how much that might help guiding core voters, if they had a feel for how the community at large sees a proposed change.
 
@Stephen We've been working on docs.google.com/document/d/…
and the likes of Reddit frequently have straw polls strawpoll.me/18629712/r
 
@MarkR that's like a one-off generic usage stats thing right?
 
I have been attempting to enable the use of php scripts on a tomcat server but it is proving to be harder then expected. Does anyone know how to get it working?

Otherwise I have a different question. Is it possible to host my php scripts on a wamp server and then query the wamp server to run my php scripts from the tomcat server and will this create any kind of security issue I must be aware of?
 
Yes @Stephen. There's an issue that whenever an argument is made, certain people respond with something along the lines of "You're asking the wrong people" or Not asking enough people, or not asking the people with no internet connectivity writing PHP 5.3 code in a shack to manage their sheep hearding in outer mongolia.
 
1:09 PM
@akinuri some applications will re-prompt for a password to make certain changes, either every time, or timed after the previous successful auth. But otherwise it sounds like your approach is fine - auth, store the username and potentially a "role" in the session, and then check it as they hit various actions. One thing to think about is if you want user sessions to update (e.g. with role changes) while they're logged in. Most probably don't need this, but it may be something to consider.
 
The only way to put that to bed is to do an <interval>ly public survey that hits as many developers as possible, but it still won't be enough for some people
 
@MarkR oh really, 'official' non-binding polls have been suggested before? Interesting.
 
I don't know about official, but anyone can set up a poll and push it to the public.
 
@MarkR the average Drupal conference has upwards of 5,000 attendees. 400 votes from Reddit is not indicative of a broad view of the community
 
@ircmaxell I was thinking more along the lines of something thats got quite low barrier to vote, but reasonable protection from spamming - as much as I hate it, something that relies on a GitHub account could meet both criteria
 
1:12 PM
I suspect you'll get much the same if you tried it on twitter
 
and specifically something that is pushed as an official thing, not just "Mark wants to know if your code is sloppy or not"
 
@MarkR has the same biases to community. People that are likely to follow us are likely to think like us.
 
So what is your suggestion to survey them? Unless your suggestion is they can't be surveyed, so we should assume their votes.
 
@Stephen barrier isn't the issue. Incentive and reach are. It would take lots of coordination with a ton of different communities. And even then it would likely miss a huge fraction of users (which may be okay)
 
there's only one way to fix a representative democracy that is not representative, that's more people in power ... we create voters, from everywhere ...
 
1:14 PM
@Stephen Hmm. Glad I'm on the right track. That's also on my mind. Next I need to figure out a way to update user session info, if it (info, role, permission etc.) has been altered.
 
@akinuri My suggestion is to use caching. Create yourself a global table which has a "security version" or "permissions version", and every time you change roles or permissions, increment it... then you can query that single row each time, and use that to decide if you need to skip the rest. It's significantly safer than time-based timeouts and significantly more performant than doing it each and every time
 
unlike everyone else, I'm not really happy to talk about restricting voting capabilities even more, or taking them away for inactivity ... we should be making it easier to influence php, not harder ... the more people that have influence the less we have to second guess what is best with our own votes, and can just vote on the basis of what we actually think, not what we think other people will think ...
 
@JoeWatkins it isn't a democracy tho. Internals members aren't voted on by the community. but those members are trying to do what they feel is best of the community. It's like a mostly-benevolent oligarchy
 
okay democracy is the wrong word, the point was really about representation ... the more voters we have, the better ...
 
@ircmaxell I'd have thought incentive is not an issue? currently non-voting users have zero voice, officially. Reach, I would imagine the core team could reach out to the major communities, and ask them to encourage their members/users to make their voices heard?
 
1:17 PM
@akinuri Same with your user login state. Don't store their password, but in your session, store when their account was last changed, and change that value if they get disabled, their password changed etc... then you only have to check if that value matches what you had in your $_SESSION to know it's all the same
 
@JoeWatkins perfect, can I vote now please :P
 
github.com/php/php-rfcs/pull/1 union types was widely distributed, check the icons at the top to see the level of engagement.
 
@Stephen "currently non-voting users have zero voice, officially." sure they have a voice, they just don't have a vote: don't equate the two.
 
@JoeWatkins me as well. To be fair, I think a RFC that passes strongly, that none of the maintainers want is a valid outcome. I think the answer is either A) someone step up and maintain it, or B) it just doesn't get merged due to lack of maintainer. I think that's perfectly healthy
@Stephen let me make an analogy: few people will play poker in what they feel is a rigged game.
 
@salathe I probably wasnt clear. what I mean is, there's very little way for someone to give feedback on a proposal, without e.g. subscribing to internals, or some random twitter/reddit/whatever poll
 
1:20 PM
The incentive needs to be there to show that their voice will be actually heard, and not just ignored or told "they are wrong" yet again. It has to have meaning to ask people to do something
 
@MarkR that actually is a positive about RFCs being on GH. I'm not really in favour of tying a project to a vendor like that, but as a concept certainly, I think it makes feedback much easier
 
Having their voice heard doesn't mean what they have to say is going to change anyone's minds unless they put forward a really solid argument.
 
and it avoids <checks> 460 emails just saying "+1"
 
@Stephen That barrier is already pretty low imo
 
where you been at phomie ?
 
1:23 PM
It's extremely low, posting on internals takes about 5 minutes, and there's usually a fairly active discussion on Reddit and Twitter as well.
 
Doing moving and visa stuff
 
@Stephen We have one "official" medium, that's the internals mailing list. It's not a voter vs non-voter thing. It's not a core contributor vs everyone else thing. It's not a silencing the masses thing. Anyone can send an email to the list (bar the ~3? people who can't). That's the same for voters and non-voters alike.
 
You need me?
 
well, it can take several months ...
 
Are you pregnant?
Is it mine?
 
1:24 PM
@PeeHaa only for good company ... how close are you to finished with moving now ?
just a little fat ...
 
@JoeWatkins Blame the age for that
 
@salathe While anyone can in theory, there is a very high entry bar
 
@JoeWatkins Most stuff is moved. And we are now in the new place
 
@MarkR I guess a timestamp would work. I could compare the one in session to the one in the database... What I'm really wondering is that do I have to make a query on the database at each request? If I must, then I'd have to make it as efficient as possible. Since this is the first time I'm creating a complex system (log in/out, roles, permissions, etc.) I trying to make sure I'm doing it right.
 
Just need to finish up the last things in old home
 
1:25 PM
I do yes, the age, the age and sausages ... it's a combination of sausages and age, and bacon ...
 
@JoeWatkins God mother rucking damnit
 
@NikiC there is?
 
It's impossible to get proper sausages and bacon here :(
 
@akinuri For the sake of security, yes you would want to do a database query once per request if that is your "source of truth".
 
@salathe it's technically a low bar, but I think a lot of users these days won't subscribe to a mailing list, just to say "I like this idea"
 
1:25 PM
And if you can you pay the premium++
 
@PeeHaa it's super stressful, remember to breathe ... and take days off ...
 
@Stephen Do they want to contribute to internals discussions or not?…
 
@PeeHaa and here ... I drive 50km to get them frozen from an English shop in Benidorm en masse ...
 
@salathe is 460x "+1" a discussion?
 
@salathe Yes. Unless someone is already subscribed and actively following the list, they'll almost certainly not chime in on a discussion.
 
1:27 PM
Don't spanish people do all that stuff too? And probably better?
 
@Stephen No, who said it was?
 
@salathe it's a measure of community sentiment. it's not something to base a vote on solely, but it's a measure.
 
@NikiC Even if they are subscribed and actively following the list, they'll almost certainly not chime in on a discussion. That's not a technical problem, it's a societal one that we need to fix.
 
@PeeHaa they have things they call sausages (chorizos) ... it's some of the worst crap I ever put in my mouth though ... and they don't do proper bacon, only the stuff that is 95% rind/fat ...
 
When was the last time you saw me post to internals on an RFC?
 
1:28 PM
@salathe That's an additional problem, but for those who are not already subscribed it's a technical problem.
 
@JoeWatkins Did you just insult me?
:P
 
@MarkR The first step in hearing someone is not putting constraints, but attempting to put yourself where they are to understand what they are saying first
 
I wouldn't even know how I can make a comment on a specific RFC without subscribing to all discussions
 
@NikiC I guess I'm too drunk to see the problem: subscribe, get an email, reply to email.
 
@NikiC this is my point. I'm not in favour of 'deprecating' or moving RFC discussion (actual discussion) off the list - but I'm also quite aware that a lot of people won't subscribe, if they just want to give feedback on one RFC - and so you end up with anecdotal "well community X is aghast about this proposal"
 
1:29 PM
If subscription even works currently, of course ^^
 
@NikiC Subscription works, I used it last week
 
@MarkR The web form too?
 
I think you have forgotten what the internet looked like before like buttons, upvotes, favs and retweets ... you are never going to really get anyone to express positive opinions on the internet, these little buttons were actually breakthroughs in feedback in my opinion, the internet was almost exclusively a negative place before that ...
 
Yes, I wanted to swap over to my @php.net account so used the web form, got an email a few minutes later with a reply-to mail to verify it, and then a few minutes after that I got the confirmation
 
I really wish you could reply to a specific post in the thread from externals.io directly
 
1:31 PM
@JoeWatkins like I said, the alternative is 460 "+1" emails.
 
that's not a problem in the internals community, it's a human problem ... being happy doesn't motivate us to do more than click a button, we're not going to write essays about how happy we are and why in the same way as we write essays about how unhappy we are and why ... it just doesn't happen ...
 
@NikiC I didn't even realise that's possible?
 
@Stephen Probably it isn't. And that sucks.
 
@Ekin just reading that 'idea' gives me the smell of spam.
 
Especially with the way the list is right now, I don't think it's reasonable to expect for people to subscribe to all discussions if they just want to contribute their expertise on a specific proposal
 
1:33 PM
Github is definitely the way forward IMO.
Either that or we write a custom system.
 
@Stephen Why?
 
reddit threads work well for discussion ^^
 
How is it different than for example github comments?
 
@PeeHaa it only works if you authenticate people, which is fine (I did originally say "something tied to e.g. a GitHub login")
 
@Stephen So? Externals would have to be tied to an emailaddress either way too
 
1:35 PM
I feel like github is a more professional setting, with a direct link to a lot of peoples work, where you are less likely to be a dick ...
 
Which is something I actually was doing when rewriting the php mailinglists :-)
Maybe I should give that thing a go again
 
Benefit of a custom system is we can use SSO from multiple locations, and can potentially introduce things like single-topic voting and the ability to specify one post per-person as a "reason"
 
@PeeHaa ... email addresses are not really that hard to create
 
@Stephen ...
 
@pmmaga But they're on reddit, which does not work well for discussion ^^
 
1:36 PM
How do you think the mailinglist works right now...
 
yeah, the format is good on reddit ... but the setting is no good ...
 
we make our own reddit! with... you know...
 
It will work the exact same way only better control over mail flows
 
Reddit has a lot of trash, but I actually think there's usually a decent splattering of really informative discussions on there about RFCs,
 
@NikiC It shouldn't be too hard to build a "clone" (or use an Open Source one) and run it on php.net infra
 
1:37 PM
@PeeHaa so, a different subscription form... will it too, be broken for months at a time?
 
@Stephen wtf are you on about :P
 
@ircmaxell To build? Easy. To run and maintain on php.net infra? Impossible.
 
@PeeHaa was the mailing list subscription form not broken for months ?
 
php.net infra is where code goes to die.
 
@Stephen Yes it was
But you are a proper naysayer right now
 
1:38 PM
yeah, agree with nikita, talking about custom systems is a bit pie in the sky ... we don't maintain the crap we have properly ...
 
Nothing I ca say will change your mind or make you not come up with some random reasons one way or another
 
What infrastructure does PHP.net have? Does it have a reliable way of rolling out containers for example?
 
Dear Phabricator,

Please help us.

kthnxbye
internals
 
@MarkR lol
 
@NikiC Fine. I'll maintain a kubernetes cluster ;)
 
1:41 PM
it would be nice to just pick something off the shelf, and have the freedom to ask any provider to just help us out, and I'm sure they would ...
 
I mean, digital ocean sponsors is, think they'd be willing to roll a K8S cluster or something?
 
but politics ...
 
@PeeHaa hey, I of all people am on-board for use-an-email type stuff, I just don't see how essentially another way to subscribe to internals solves much - the only reason I suggested something linked to e.g. github/gitlab/etc is because a lot of the community already has accounts there, is logged in, and leave quick feedback on a topic without the aforementioned 460+ "+1" emails.
 
but about a community vote and avoiding spammy voters, I think that's a non-issue. It will be a non-binding vote. The fact that anyone can vote in a relatively simple way helps everyone treat it as non-binding. If you make it too official, arguments will start: "You ignored the will of the people..."
 
@PeeHaa are there really a lot of people reading externals.io, who want to respond, but also aren't subscribed to the actual list?
@pmmaga sorry did we just switch to talking about UK politics or did I have a stroke?
 
1:42 PM
I think a non-binding vote is a good idea, as long as it's explicit as to what it is and why it is happening
 
I've been really impressed with GKE I have to admit.
 
@Stephen there was mentions of a community vote before. I guess my comment just came waaay too out of time
 
Community votes are great, but what you really want is informed votes, and that's a much, much harder problem.
 
you have to believe that the internals people who vote currently are informed
 
@ircmaxell this is why I think the format @NikiC's RFC on GH kind of works - people leave feedback fairly freely - either a simple reaction, or a comment, but there's literally no mention of "comments are votes" type thing. Those who do vote can ignore all that feedback, if they wish, but it's also right there if they wish to avail themselves of it.
 
1:46 PM
@Stephen I totally agree
 
That's why I'd personally roll a custom voting system that mandates some kind of qualitative reasoning, even if it's just a paragraph or two. I think seeing people justify their votes would go a long way
Even if it's just adding their name to the comments of someone else.
 
adding the ability to post to internals@ from externals - despite my concerns - may in fact work well too, but thats definitely more involved, and even as a non-voter I would get bored of "+1", "plz moar types" emails turning up every minute
@MarkR isn't that effectively the same as posting to internals@ though?
 
I was thinking more along something where the vote and the reason (or endorsement of a reason) were explicitly linked. That's how it works in courts, they have the decision, but also a reasoning.
and the reasoning and disenting opinion is usually written by 1 or 2 people, and then t he other judges agree with it or write their own
and tbh votes don't come up often enough that a paragraph or two to demonstrate reasoning is such a hard ask... and IMO if people demonstrate they have the ability to provide those reasoned opinions, they should be well on the way to getting a vote
 
any phpstorm users here?
 
@MarkR the fastest way to bias a vote is to ask people to openly explain why. Lots of people simply won't vote
 
1:52 PM
> Wow.
> A RFC that it's motivation is to prevent beginners from asking questions.
 
@MarkR I honestly think you'll get less feedback - and given that it's an informative poll (I apologise if I ever used the word vote, I shouldn't have) to merely advise voters, asking them jump through even the slightest hoop is more than too much
 
I'm talking about when they actually formally vote @Stephen
 
... why do certain people always manage to miss the point
 
@MarkR and oh you mean for votes. oh I wasnt even considering the actual voting part.
 
@PeeHaa it's intentional
 
1:54 PM
IMO if you can't or wont explain why you're voting a particular way, you shouldn't be voting at all.
 
I am indeed done with giving the benefit of the doubt
 
and there would be no right-to-reply directly to them. Discuss them elsewhere, sure, but a simple "This is my justification, endorsed by me and <list of anyone else>"
 
@MarkR or maybe people don't believe it's constructive to say because the sentiment has been said by enough others that they don't want to contribute to noise
 
That is why I used the court analogy, and how a panel of judges will often have one person write an opinion and the others will sign their names to it.
 
What about stack overflow style voting :)
 
1:56 PM
@ircmaxell I always wonder if this type of comment is trying to convince others of their opinion, or just stir up shit, or just the need to say something
@MarkR isnt the current system just people signing their names to what the RFCs author(s) wrote then?
obviously not for those who vote against.
unless they're confused.
 
Asking for opinions:

In a service-oriented architecture, I have a web controller that dispatches the requests to appropriate services, one of them is the "User" service. While registering, I need to send a confirmation email to the user. Now for that, I have another "Email" service.

Now, who should be calling the sendEmail() method? Should it be the controller (for which I will have to spill the secret tokens to the controller, which I am not a fan of) or the User service (I am not sure if should be responsible for doing that)?
 
@PeeHaa moving somewhere fun?
 
@Leigh 3 blocks away from the old place :)
 
At least it's an easy move then :P
 
Yes and no. In general the actual RFC's don't go deep into the positives and negatives, that's what the ML is for
 
1:58 PM
Yep luckily
 
@2dsharp welcome to the on the one side, and on the other side of architecting software systems :)
 
@Stephen it's easier to argue with a hyperbolic interpretation. So by pushing the interpretation to a slipery-slope version of it, it makes a "thin" argument sound more justified and more important. It's especially an effective method in a noisy environment where it's not clear to everyone it is actually hyperbolic
 
@Leigh How / what are you doing nowadays?
 
cmb
You do not have to subscribe to the mailing (I'm not subscribed for example).
You can just send a mail to the list, and after one-time confirmation, you can write as many as you like.
 
@beberlei Looks like I end up scratching my head for every design decision I am about to take these days. :/
 
2:00 PM
@MarkR They should. This is something I've pushed to happen for years. I believe it's the RFC author's job, prior to vote, to accurately reflect the debate that happened
 
@ircmaxell *nods in agreement*
 
@2dsharp having 2 services is already good, have the user service call email service in the beginning, thats the most straightforward approach. do this until the service classes take to many dependencies, then extract one service per "action" instad of UserService, RegistrationService for example.
 
It's not a terrible idea maxell, but I think all things considered letting people write their own summary and then receiving endorsements from it is a better way, it pre-emptively nullifies arguments that the summary didn't properly represent them
 
Annotate internal function argument and return types – #78576
 
@ircmaxell Even in the How To Create an RFC doc, we have: "5. ... Update your RFC to document all the issues and discussions. Cover both the positive and negative arguments. ..."
 
2:04 PM
@MarkR I think that can be handled on list though. "I think the RFc doesn't capture my issue. Let me restate and ask that the author reflect this in the RFC before going to vote / etc
 
@beberlei That does make sense and separating them into smaller classes is what I initially thought of too. However, I realized that I need to find a way to share the data (for example, user id and password) between a "LoginService" and a "RegistrationService" at the end, and sharing the database isn't very microservice-y.
 
@MarkR I just worry asking everyone to justify why isn't healthy. If someone just doesn't like the idea, is that a bad reason to vote against it?
 
@2dsharp microservice-y? uuh sounds like the flu :p
 
IMO yes. Justification, however basic, should be a requirement.
So you don't like it... why don't you like it?
 
@beberlei I suppose it is the flu. :)
 
2:06 PM
@MarkR For both "aye" as well as "nay", right?
 
That's correct @salathe.
 
it has to be for both. otherwise you create an incentive to vote one way (I don't have to explain it..)
 
@MarkR it doesn't matter why. And more importantly it doesn't matter than anyone else understand why. It is ideal if others understand why, but that burdon also comes with a cost. That's why literally no voting system in use in politics or elections around the world even allow reasons to be shared
A judicial ruling isn't a vote. It is a decision made by a group that must be justified (so it can be challenged, or so it can provide precident for future rulings)
 
@ircmaxell You mean voting for the person to represent you. The votes of MPs etc are all fully recorded, attributed, and demand justification from their local parties etc
PHP RFC's are not a secret ballot, our name goes right next to them.
 
@MarkR they don;'t demand justification for every vote. There is no requirement to share. There is a choice to share, but it's not part of the vote
 
2:13 PM
Sure they do, an MPs local party can demand they justify their vote, and can and have been deselected if they are unable to convince their local parties of the reasoning behind them.
 
@MarkR i am pretty sure they can demand justification but mp doesn't have to give it
 
Hence the deselection
 
But that's not a product of the vote. That's a product of the party that got them elected. Party membership, not voting
 
exactly
 
It's a product of representative democracy, that MPs are duty-bound to represent the interests of their constituents and those constituents have the ability to take action if they feel their interests are not being served.
 
2:17 PM
@MarkR but that isn't the same as Parliament demanding to know why everyone voted the way they did
 
Comparing it to politics was your idea :-) I think the court is the best analogy.
 
@MarkR but even the court isn't a good analogy.
 
You say that, but if only you could provide a more verbose justification for why, perhaps with evidence, subsequently proving the argument right in the first place ;D
 
@MarkR I've provided justification why. Multiple times. I've said there isn't a single case of requiring justifications for votes. And I pointed why I don't believe judicial rulings apply (they aren't a vote, but a decision, one which has to be able to be either appealed or used for precedent). Not going to continue to go in circles with it.
 
Strange, I thought making decisions was the whole point in RFCs.
 
2:26 PM
@ircmaxell so next up: an RFC to allow appeals to RFCs.
 
@MarkR the vote yes or no is the only relevant information to make a decision?
 
2:41 PM
How many requests /second would the average web server start to struggle?
 
That's a very wide question. What are the specs of an average web server?
 
@notatroll anywhere from 1 to 10,000
 
Depends on your wider objectives @beberlei. Ideally you don't just want the vote itself, but you want the vote to be seen to be informed and have legitimacy in those who would observe it, especially in contenious issues such as PHP is running across
 
So basically I want to learn how to scale on my own. I was going to spoof my web server with X requests /second and imagine its real and see how well I do at scaling.
 
@notatroll benchmark the current capacity, then try to improve it
 
2:44 PM
@NikiC @JoeWatkins Hi, I want to show you my first progress on github.com/lisachenko/z-engine Could I ask you to have a look please at tests and say what do you think about this library. It's WIP, but core is already formed.
 
yeah that's a good idea, I want to experience hitting actual real issues and limitations and resolving them by learning to scale, load balancers etc.
I also want to stress test my MySQL database and see how a real company would handle that.
can someone give me some insight to how much MySQL can scale?
 
There's a lot of tools to stress test a MySQL DB, it depends whether you want to test your app + DB, or just your DB
 
@notatroll how long is a piece of string?
 
And again, it depends on how you're using it. A badly optimised DB / queries will perform terrible regardless of R/s
 
@Sean could you name some of them?
 
2:47 PM
You can start with the provided mysqlslap utility
 
@PeeHaa Yea I'm doing alright, same company, transitioning to a more devops/sre type role. Phasing out the PHP in my life (unfortunately I'm a bus factor 1 for some, so I still have to maintain some). London is still fun, so sticking with it
 
I understand you're probably after more specific answers, but you're asking very generic questions. In reality you'll want to decide what you want to measure (avg response times against requests per second, for example), establish a baseline as mentioned above by running said tests (preferably not on the same server(s) that your app is hosted on), tweak, re-run, and compare.
If it's a website you care about staying up, would recommend you copy your environment/site and test against the copy (just make sure it's as close to production as possible).
 
3:12 PM
@lisachenko not found - is it private?
 
@bwoebi yes, it's private now, will publish it in one month at the bgphp conference
 
@notatroll pretty good. You just throw more hardware like cpus and memory on a single instance. A mysql server with 32 threads and 128gb memory can do a lot of work
 
@lisachenko is this the thing you were talking about, using ext/ffi to access php-src itself? If yes, then I'm curious
 
@bwoebi yes, it is )
Still WIP, but it brings a lot of fun for me right now. Like incrementing refcounf by hand to make local object survive till the end of request
Add new method in runtime to the class from closure instance or remove existing one...
@bwoebi added you as well
 
aaaand this is why I've already added ffi.enable=false to my ini files
 
3:25 PM
Would it be possible to overwrite stdlib functions with an older version? ducks unter table
 
@cmb github.com/php/php-src/pull/4728/… Does MSVC not support this at all?
Or is there some variant that works?
 
cmb
Is it about the empty struct initializers? Will have a closer look, but I wonder whether this is standard conforming.
 
3:48 PM
@cmb I think it's about the (type) { } syntax
 
cmb
4:04 PM
@NikiC, even `struct foo {int bar;} baz = {};` errors with C2059.
https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/language/struct_initialization says a struct initializer must not be empty.
 
Morrow
 
cmb
Did you try {0}? Wouldn't that be correct, anyway?
 
@JayIsTooCommon wind
 
4:23 PM
Sky
 
@JayIsTooCommon /me is coming to barcelona
 
how can i get the diff from 2 arrays?
i tryed this
foreach($teste as $item){
    //line is the posted array
    $result=array_diff($item,$line);
}
but only get one return
 
@lisachenko will try to review over weekend ...
 
@JoeWatkins amazing :D
 
4:36 PM
stupidity is something that abounds in the world
 
4:54 PM
@JoeWatkins Woot!!!!! \o/
 
Sometimes I am so slow
@MarkR rim
 
@JoeWatkins holy shit balls! /cc @pmmaga @DaveRandom @Sean @LeviMorrison your turn
 
@MarkR "because it's a shit idea", is always going to be a valid answer to that. Which doesn't exactly help decorum.
 
If someone wants their public reason for voting down an idea to be "because it's a shit idea", go for it :-D
 
5:18 PM
@JayIsTooCommon I'm going to talk to my manager about it in our next 1:1.
Anyone aware of an extension that has both PHP code and C code? Like a pecl package or something?
Trying to re-architect our extension and userland split and integration, because what we are doing currently is not right; we just don't know what "right" is.
 
@LeviMorrison didn't the mongodb extension do that?
the original one was pure C, but then I thought it was replaced by a basic C extension, which is used by a first-party user land library?
maybe @Derick is the one to ask about that?
@Danack adding the 'e' so you get "it's a shite idea" makes everyone say it with a (probably bad) Irish accent in their head, so it's less offensive, right?
 
5:43 PM
@LeviMorrison Couchbase does this
@LeviMorrison what is right is converting all your PHP code to C code ;)
unless you come up with an idea how extensions can ship PHP code that automatically gets preloaded
 
@beberlei that would be quite cool.
 
It doesn't need to be preloaded.
It just needs installed into the php include path and included in rinit ;)
 
@JoeWatkins thank you, you will be the first person to criticize this project )
 
5:59 PM
@LeviMorrison we did it this hacking way in tideways 4 and previous extensions. It was a nightmare though with user requests, open_basedir, installation problems, .... also the code is from my "i don't know exactly what i am doing days" and 3 years old so please be gentle ;) github.com/tideways/php-xhprof-extension/blob/4.x/…
@lisachenko why "criticize"? give feedback sounds way more positive :)
 
@beberlei well, he could've said destroy … criticize is pretty much middle ground here :-P
 
cmb
@NikiC, it seems to me that ZEND_TYPE_ENCODE_CODE() is a show stopper, since it dle
since it isn't a constant expression, but used to initialize a static var.
 
6:30 PM
@Leigh Nice \o/
 
Crash in DOMNameSpace debug info handlers – #78577
 
already on it!
 
@Leigh just taking advantage of being able to ping you again ^.^
 
@Stephen I'm from Bristol, and I recently found out that apparently our aks-sent, sounds like this to outsiders:
I request that whenever people read emails from me, they imagine me speaking like that from now on.^^
 
6:47 PM
=D
 
so Danack's a pirate
 
can confirm
 
After reading half a chapter on C# generics and type definitions by Jon Skeet, I could go a few weeks without reading about generics and it would be too long. My head is spinning.
 
7:02 PM
booked my php barcelona ticket :-)
 
\o/
 
@beberlei \o/
I want commission at this rate
 
7:18 PM
@Danack HA.
 
7:45 PM
@Danack I grew up in Adelaide (so typically less of a strong Aussie accent) and my parents are both English. While living in Melbourne based on no more than a question about a transit smart card, the staff assumed I was English and started telling me how it’s just like Oyster cards.
 
i don't get libxml
 
8:15 PM
@cmb I guess I need to separate the initializers that use (zend_type) and those that don't? It should be a constant expression without that. Or not a constant expression but an initializer expression.
@beberlei So ... everyone's gonna be at php barcelona?
 
@NikiC yesssss. We just need to work on a few more regulars
R11 pool partay
Never in the history of man will a pool party have so much facial hair
 
@beberlei Yeah, we're doing something pretty similar currently. What I want to achieve is that the PHP files go into the PHP libdir, similar to PEAR packages. That folder should be in the include_path and shouldn't have issues with open_basedir.
 
@NikiC thats the reason i bought a ticket i guess! :p
 
@JayIsTooCommon PHPPP = PHP Pool Party
4
 
@LeviMorrison do all php installations still have an include dir?
i dont remember why i didnt use it then
 
8:32 PM
@StatikStasis written in the stars.
@StatikStasis now go buy your ticket.
 
I wish I could- if for nothing else but the corny jokes.
Seriously- has anyone heard from @Wes in a while?
 
He was here recently
 
I haven't seen/heard from him on here in a while.
 
it says on his profile that his last message was 18 days ago, and that he was last seen 16 days ago
But there is nothing new about this, he has done this quite a few times in the past
 
Ok- cool.
Yeah he's disappeared for a while before- just seemed like it had been longer than that.
 
8:38 PM
@JayIsTooCommon tab is muted
 
@Leigh oh you suck.
@StatikStasis yeah I spoke to him on wednesday, said he’s just busy. So I hurled a lot of abuse at him. We’ll see if it works.
 
@JayIsTooCommon You have been spending quite a bit of time here recently, I thought you were busy with your cop duties, so what are you focusing more on php again ro something?
 
What is the best way to use PHP7.4 on MacOS? Brew is not available yet, so compiling from source?
 
@mega6382 I’ve just finished 6 month freelance, which I was doing on my days off. So got more time to myself now. Plus it was 6 months on WP.... so I’m just happy to be writing sane, clean code again.
 
8:44 PM
Docker all the things.
6 months on wordpress? Good grief man, were you being punished for staging a genocide?
 
lol
@JayIsTooCommon cool, good to know.
 
@beberlei I'm pretty sure.
 
@MarkR honestly. It’s absolute hell. I thought WP hate was just exaggerated... but no. It really is that bad.
its a good eye opener to how shit programming is without satisfaction though. The difference in enjoyment when you’re coding clean
 
@JayIsTooCommon I was talking to a colleague of mine a few days ago, he told me he works on WP, and I asked how long have you been working on WP projects he said 5 yrs, and I said "Oh, so you have wasted 5 yrs".
 
@mega6382 plus I was bummed that the room was becoming inactive. Hence harassing people to come back
 
8:50 PM
@JayIsTooCommon yeah, and now you are forcing them to attend PHP Barcelona :D
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
well, it definitely will be fun, I can see that
 
9:36 PM
Hi all! Sorry if it is a dumb question... I have recently encounter an issue using blade and vue js. If normally php runs first and just print a static document (so...without any {{}}) at server level rendering... why it conflicts with vue js interpolation that is a frontend side render? Thanks!
I mean, {{123}} would be 123 on js time, but it seems that vue still find some tags there
 
I'm listening to phpinternals.news about the docs, poor @girgias
So much pain that could be easily solved by using a database
 
cmb
9:54 PM
@NikiC, it seems that indeed the `(zend_type)` cast is what's not allowed in initializers.
Furthermore empty compound literals `{}` are not supported by MSVC.
 
10:50 PM
@beberlei It might be tied to whether pear is enabled -- I'm struggling to find exactly what sets the default include_path.
 
11:06 PM
@MarkR thanks for thinking about me :D
Tbf the moment I get the revcheck thing working it should be a walk in the park
 
lol, I was just listening to it and thinking "... this would be 100x easier if done using proper tools"
Need a last updated ID? Auto increment field, boom, done.
 
However just to comment on the providing a reason on an RFC vote I don't think I agree with it, it just becomes a burden IMHO
One thing I was a bit sad in that episode was the plan of retiering edit.php.net
Sure it's currently crappy and needs a rewrite
But I find it pretty damn useful for translating the doc
 
How so, just for the tabbed stuff?
 
You get a split screen of the translated doc and the original doc with the diff you need to tacle above
So it's pretty handy
I think the reason it's such a complicated mess is that instead having everything in english
Everything, even the menu, boutons, promts etc. are translated
 
Is there any actual like... UI editor for this XML?
 
11:12 PM
What do you mean?
It highlights XML
And entities and such, there is also a small verification script to check that your XML ain't totally broken
You can still break the build but "stupid" mistakes are prevented if you run it
 
I've read through some of the pages, but I don't really understand why someone hasn't just spent the 12 hours or so to knock out a UI for it.
So I feel im missing something
 
The UI is shait
But you get used to it fairly quicly
 
Sooooo... if translation history etc is a problem, why not just put all the translations into a single document and track the most recent version?
I assume they're all meant to represent identical information yesum?
 
Pls no
It's such a pain to update large documents
 
wai?
 
11:24 PM
I maybe didn't get what you meant
I'm quite exhausted atm
The thing with large documents for translations is that they are hard to navigate IMHO
 
Yeah, I think I'm going to spend a few hours on making a UI for this. Don't suppose you have an easy way of getting a single XML file from an API do you?
 
Like trying to find the corresponding translated line for line 867 in the English document is a pain
Not really @MarkR, you could maybe try to query svn.php.net
That seems to be the best you can do by querying a website svn.php.net/viewvc/phpdoc/en/trunk/…
 
Yeah that's why I was thinking... why not just merge them and remove the need for multiple documents entirely.

<parameter type="string">
<name>string</string>
<name lang="sp">el-string</name>
<name lang="ru">stringingrad</name>
</parameter>
No need to track line by line and immediate access to an english fallback if the translated version is missing or outdated
 
Well that's going to be a pain to maintain, more than currently
Because how do you signal that the translation needs to be updated?
 
Couple of ways, first would be automatically generated metadata by comparing the nodes, and a hook when submitted. Or the easiest way would just be to have whatever UI was doing it tag it with a timestamp
 
11:33 PM
Maybe? I'm too tired to reason I think and will head to bed
Night night :)
 
G'nite.
 
11:50 PM
.. I can only assume that was something utterly scandalous
 
Considering it is still friday somewhere it was really tame :-)
 
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