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13:00
lol, this why I think "D" in DDD stands for "disaster"
ummm. that makes no sense at all?
And this is why I have stopped even referring to or thinking about MVC. Make sure your code separates concerns so you don't have a big ball of spaghetti.
@azam this ^
Right now it sounds like making sure your classes and methods have one responsibility is way more important than ensuring you're following some kind of specific implementation of a subjective architectural pattern.
controller calls model
events happen in the model
projections write those changes to the tables (each one optimized for an UI screen)
those tables are then used to generate the screens
@Gordon ^
13:03
I think I will need to buy a beer in the evening
probably multiple
Well MVC is perceived differently at different places. My professors at my uni had a completely different idea as to what views were.
@tereško if you need a drink, then think about me. I would need more than that
problem is everyone thinks about the view as the format (HTML, json, ...). If you think about the data instead, my ramblings make more sense
@Patrick who is "everyone"?
TBH, this is "liable"
V always was part of the presentation layer, so I find it hard to think of it as data and not data representation
13:07
if you have event sourcing, most tables are just data representations of the current state
not that different from db views
@Patrick please stop. You are making it worse
you are trying to explain one obscure and confusing system by using a different confusing and obscure system - this is not helping
This is the worst topic of all the time
everyone is explaining it differently than the others
@azam that's the point, forget about MVC
learn about separation of concerns, SOLID and other useful concepts
okay. I think do but the popular frameworks like asp.net MVC, Laravel etc bring it up all the time
@azam Laravel explicitly says they are not an MVC framework: linkedin.com/pulse/…
13:14
okay, as far as I have learnt there is no MVC
I know you're all probably getting a bit sick of me and my blog, but can someone proof read this please
making people sick is not a good idea..
just joking
what am I looking at ?
13:21
Google's Blog platform's default theme is so obnoxious with a decent resolution monitor.
> but unfortunately unusable in it's current state
its
i think
Now that I got that out of the way, zoom to 150% and starting to read :D
while you read ... I'm glad that my rather extreme depression comes in the bipolar form, you don't hear from me for four months at a time, and I'm barely able to get out of bed, but my output when able is so far beyond what most people can manage ... just trying to explain the noise, sorry ... the cycle will continue, sorry for that also ...
it's better than just being depressed all the time, I get to ride the highs, and boy do I enjoy it ... I love to code, when I can get out of bed ...
@JoeWatkins Are you familiar with lyle mcdonald? He struggles with the same and blogged about it bodyrecomposition.com/bipolar
bookmarked for next low swing, I try not to wallow when on up swing, I gotta make the most of it, to keep my job, and family ...
few words to explain strange behaviour to friends, I can do, I can't really stand to read about it right now .. but thank you, I will be reading it, I really did bookmark it ...
13:28
Wouldn't it make more sense to deal with it now? You probably don't have the energy to deal with it on a downturn? But to be honest I don't really know much about it. I only know because I've read his blog for the nutrition and training information
I know that my empathy module is broken, you can make me cry, like a little girl, with a sad story ...
Hopefully it will help you at some point in the future, sucks that you have to deal with that :(
@JoeWatkins sounds like your empathy module is working
it's too much, a crying kid can make me cry and I don't have to know why they are crying ...
just walking past in the street ...
any mo mistakes ?
13:45
if someone just says no, I can press publish and get on with next thing :)
excellentnesslyness
\o/
Will proof read once published though :P
knob head
13:47
hehe <3
I know you're all sick of my blog by now, but hear me out: On Coverage in #PHP https://blog.krakjoe.ninja/2019/01/running-for-coverage.html #php #coverage #testing
patrick should probably get the reddit karma for this one to make up for the last, but maybe leave it until tomorrow or something ...
crap, the next thing is uopz ...
@JoeWatkins shouldn't your post contain a link to github somewhere ?
perhaps
I'll fix that
ta
@JoeWatkins things would be simple if I could just say nothing is final during tests.
14:03
everything I write has to ignore that final even exists, just ignore it ...
they know not what they do with final ...
@JoeWatkins I mean, I'm always annoyed in my tests when I cannot just simply do my own little anon class extending the typehint
small anon classes solve like 95% of mocking issues in tests
oh, if only that were true ...
I got a bagillion fucking problems, and none of them are solved with anons ...
exempli gratia?
I thought they would be, and if I was writing the code today, they would ...
Ah okay
yeah I haven't been writing tests for legacy PHP codebases to date
14:06
that's the problem, it's a sort of modern system piggy backing off a legacy one, but the legacy one is so core that it's difficult to change, so we gotta find ways to test it ...
slowly we throw away the legacy, but what is important for me and the business are very different, so I gotta squeeze in the time to change stuff when I can but most of the time, the focus is on business needs ...
@JoeWatkins business needs something you can easily work with to have more total output ... so :-P
(I know, I'm oversimplifying)
one thing the business doesn't worry about is my output, they are so cool ... the fact is that when active I outpace everyone in the company, by a very wide margin, even if you take their whole year into account ... it works for them, and pretty much the only way I can work, also this is the first employer I've ever had where I can just be honest ...
if I can't get out of bed, I can just say I can't get out of bed, and I can do reviews pretty much all the time anyway ...
it would take a lot to make me leave, I have a lot of love for my current employer ... they let me publish anything and do anything I want, all the time, I've never had that ...
that… and all the free porn ;)
haha, but you know I don't do porn ... if I did, I wouldn't get anything done year round :D
I'll just leave that there...
14:20
people turn their nose up at adult stuff to quickly, if you want a challenge, it's the place to be I think ... who cares about what is on the frontend, so long as it's legal, and it always is ... then the adult arena is where you are going to have your skills put to the test ...
you can't actually get away with writing crap code at such scale, legacy is not the same as crap ...
@JoeWatkins weeeeell, technically you'd get done a lot
@Gordon ... code-wise? :-P
bah, now I need to get the images of @JoeWatkins in a pink fluffy pyjama doing porn out of my head… but ok, it's my own fault…
I'd like to point out that you concocted those images in your own head ... I never fuck in pjs ...
I already said it's my own fault :)
14:34
@pmmaga they do now, that article is out of date. But there is still some dumbness there I think - e.g. they don't have the clean semantic difference between 'composer update - update all ze things' and ' composer install - install the versions from the lockfile', that composer has.
@JoeWatkins but you know… rule 35
hahahaha
@Danack so they have the lock but no explicit way to honor it, kinda?
I don't know how far you read @pmmaga, but yarn has emojis ...
who cares about lock files ...
:D I did miss that part... Case closed!
14:42
@pmmaga I forget the details - it's something like unless you specify a "don't change anything" flag it will feel free to make changes when doing an 'install'.
exactly
e.g.
361
Q: Why does "npm install" rewrite package-lock.json?

Viper BaileyI just recently upgraded to npm@5. I now have a package-lock.json file with everything from package.json. I would expect that, when I run npm install that the dependency versions would be pulled from the lock file to determine what should be installed in my node_modules directory. What's stran...

all of these package managers are so annoying to actually use, the first time you want to use them for some non-standard work flow, everything seems to break down ...
@JoeWatkins except this one is failing for a standard work flow event...
as in "deploy the software".
if everything is tagged nice and pretty like, you might get a working install ... but the moment you want to use a patched version of anything, you will waste longer trying to get it to work than it took to write the stupid patch ...
yeah I see that ...
14:45
> npm ci bypasses a package’s package.json to install modules from a package’s lockfile. This ensures reproducible builds—you are getting exactly what you expect on every install. - blog.npmjs.org/post/171556855892/…
@Ekin \o/
Somebody with the karma to do so should bump PHP and Zend versions in master to reflect PHP 8.0.0-dev / Zend Engine 4.0.0-dev.
I'll do that now
@SebastianBergmann I've given me karma to do that this morning, but it seems to take ages to synchronize
oh you done it already
@JoeWatkins great, thanks :)
14:51
oh I'll do it
head spins ...
why do I have karma that you don't have ?
I can implement my RFC now :)
@JoeWatkins Only RMs can edit php_version.h to prevent bad merges
ah
where's ze version ?
@JoeWatkins zend.h
14:53
#define ZEND_ENGINE_3, leave ?
@JoeWatkins yeah
k
diff --git a/Zend/zend.h b/Zend/zend.h
index 5918691c27..05a43d2779 100644
--- a/Zend/zend.h
+++ b/Zend/zend.h
@@ -20,7 +20,7 @@
 #ifndef ZEND_H
 #define ZEND_H

-#define ZEND_VERSION "3.4.0-dev"
+#define ZEND_VERSION "4.0.0-dev"

 #define ZEND_ENGINE_3

diff --git a/configure.ac b/configure.ac
index 2da7776e53..1ed2839b0b 100644
--- a/configure.ac
+++ b/configure.ac
@@ -109,8 +109,8 @@ extern "C++" {
 #endif /* PHP_CONFIG_H */
 ])

-PHP_MAJOR_VERSION=7
-PHP_MINOR_VERSION=4
+PHP_MAJOR_VERSION=8
yeah ?
@JoeWatkins LGTM
ZEND_ENGINE_3 is used nowhere IIRC, but maybe that should be changed to ZEND_ENGINE_4?
14:55
done
also, hi sebastian :)
@SebastianBergmann it's used by exts
yeah I was just going to say that ...
still there are no 8 exts yet ..
Or at least I think it is
no that's right, it may be, even if it's not ...
By rights it shouldn't exist...
14:56
but you could define both perhaps ...
@PeeHaa Yes, it does make sense. In a way, we are forcing them to think twice for abusing the system. If they want to extend/screw up they can use the custom types. I will take a note of it, thanks!
s/ZEND_ENGINE_3/PHP_ENGINE_1/
I done a blog you might want to read, when you have a minute ...
PHP_ENGINE_ONE
wait wait ... NIKIC_AND_DMITRY_ENGINE_ONE
@JoeWatkins My first attempt to read it ended at "clever sausages". ;-)
aww ... that's funny english ...
ignore it :)
14:58
Will do, but later.
waiting is painful, but okay :)
the only line you really need read is this
> So now PCOV and Zend agree absolutely, and always will, about what is executable code.
but no pressure, whatever ... I'm only pulling the fluff out of my pjs, its cool ...
:)
This week I am busy with work and preparing for PHPUnit 8 on Friday. After that I should have time to look into PCOV.
another thing you might be interested in, totally unrelated, is sandbox ...
yo anthony
15:05
The only sandbox I'm interested in is the one were some people put their president into so that he can build his wall.
@JoeWatkins combination of their forenames so Niry Engine
and as a reward, they get to name some parser token in russian
T_DVOYNAYA_TOCHKA
does that mean phpunit 8 won't have support for pcov ?
how far away is 9 ?
phpunit 8? I think the last phpunit I used was 4 or 5. time flies.
@JoeWatkins That does not mean that PHPUnit 8 will not get support for PCOV. Could be as early as PHPUnit 8.1 (April release).
@JoeWatkins PHPUnit is about one year away (first Friday of February 2020).
oh okay, that's not so bad ... although I'd like to have started to use it last week, we can't actually run our tests with Xdebug and phpdbg doesn't work properly, but can't figure out how because of composer ... do you have any idea how I can setup a temporary fork of phpunit so that people can use it/test it, and I can deploy it ?
15:18
@JoeWatkins And since there is no change required in PHPUnit itself, support for PCOV could come even earlier. Just requires new releases of environment and php-code-coverage.
oh okay, all good things ...
music to ma ears
my current fork of phpunit composer just doesn't work, I've no idea why
not a good composerist ...
@JoeWatkins Last time I made music was with ProTracker on the Amiga. A remix of a 2Unlimited or Culture Beat track, IIRC.
15:31
I can patch a version to work with pcov, but I'd really like to know how to setup the fork, I can't give instructions to several hundred devs for patching their env :s
I mean I could, but I will waste of lot of time explaining how to use patch, or trying to resolve errors of some sort, and one of the driving forces here is to stop wasting time ... so if you could look at the composer.json in my fork, and tell me what's wrong with it, I'd be much obliged ...
April is only just over 8 weeks away.
I don't know how many test runs that is ... several tens of thousands ... I don't mean to seem pushy, but if anyone is going to reap benefits from this, it should be the place that paid for it's development, right ?
posted on January 28, 2019 by CommitStrip

4
^ lol
yeah, so get it working for your company, but worry about getting it working for other people later for phpunit 8.1?
15:41
I can't, that's my problem
I can't get it working without a phpunit fork, and my phpunit fork doens't work because of composer
@JoeWatkins I merged the pull request for environment just now.
ah now it should be easier, I think, but if I could just get one more moment of your time to look at composer.json in my fork so it will work, I'll shut up until you are ready, promise ...
My Composer-fu is not enough to comprehend, lest alone solve, the problems you discussed with Jordi.
not even sure if it's the same problem, but I'll try to holla at jordi ... thankyou for time
15:46
no problem, not your fault at all ...
\o
I'll get jordi help hopefully, I'm so clueless at composer
16:05
Do I need TLS for gRPC when using micro services in docker?
Because everything is within the docker network anyway
@JoeWatkins Well, if you mean with clueless not knowing all its arcane invocations ... then everyone but Jordi is clueless
16:20
@Jimbo yes
and "everything is within the docker network" is
@SebastianBergmann you tagged the release before making the merge
16:45
ah I see
(I'm not sure if I see)
REMOVE ALL THE THINGS
agree, go ...
/me writes shim for create_function() for forward compat ... :-D
Morning!
@PeeHaa Woot!!
17:04
@NikiC if you could do something, anything , that would utterly break uopz, that would be really helpful for me ...
@JoeWatkins remove user opcodes?
17:28
Guys does "Troubleshooting" mean "finding the trouble" or "fixing it" ?
@Shafizadeh Both
@Shafizadeh Find the problem and identify a course of action or solution to fix.
I see, thx
17:46
Are here any caveats that would prevent echo "CERTSTRING" | base64 -d | dumpasn1 from reading a valid DER encoded key correctly? I've tried in PHP, GoLang, and that command line to check this cert someone is handing me in a JWT and all of them say it's invalid.
The people handing it to me say it isn't, and I don't know enough about RSA crypto to know for sure.
who is going to make noise at travis and have them update 7.4/nightly ?
/cc @NikiC
Well, Travis got acquired recently
Probably they don't care about shit anymore
@NikiC quite the opposite imo......they sold themselves because github introduced 'actions' which could devastate Travis' reason for existing......Travis are way more likely to listen to requests to keep their market share.
@tereško I need your help, just 5 minutes.
17:54
github.com/features/actions - it's not quite ready for prime time, but I can see the vast majority of enterprise github users switching to that eventually, rather than have a separate build tool in Travis.
I boiled down my laptop selection to just two, and I will buy one tomorrow, so I need a feedback @tereško
18:10
You will have to wait for 15min
I am on a bus
Ok, no problem
18:23
@s_bergmann Hello, there. http://pear.php.net is down at the moment, and as such we are unable to build archives. https://travis-ci.community/t/php-nightly-and-snapshots-are-broken/2002 Sorry for the inconvenience.
@SebastianBergmann That makes it sound like builds would work if pear is fixed
Nightly builds have been broken for something like half a year now
With a short working window around the 7.3 release
@SebastianBergmann thephp.cc/news/2019/01/who-pays-for-php sounds interesting. Can you say how long until the reveal?
18:54
AppVeyor hits the 60 minute limit a lot. Can we do anything about that, like make stuff run faster or ..?
19:22
Invalid callback, h2 server push – #77535
> Invalid callback , no array or string given
The way it is implemented it doesn't accept an anonymous function IIRC
Wes
Wes
@NikiC clean ish way to check in php-parser if an identifier is reserved, like int, float?
btw i just found out you can do
use const false as true;
!!dad
How many apples grow on a tree? All of them
I did it wrong
Wes
Wes
19:38
@Tiffany weird
@Tiffany that's the other way around: 3v4l.org/P8mUA
funny that 3v4l also shows the first time this script was executed. Apparently @ Thu Oct 02 2014 06:51:27 in this case
Wes
Wes
@pmmaga ah right lol, so it works
yes :(
anyone else get a 500 error 3v4l.org/last?mine=1?
Wes
Wes
i like that true and false are not special cased though
19:43
@Wes why?
\o
@LeviMorrison we could run just the zts build on windows ...
any non zts problems are going to show themselves on travis anyway, and windows builds are mostly zts ...
@pmmaga But true/false in php are case insensitive, so 3v4l.org/YA9VY
QA for releases includes all kinda of builds whatever ... we don't need them all the time imo ...
Wes
Wes
@Tiffany because special casing leads to more code that has essentially no value
it's not that you write use false as true; by mistake.... so why should php make sure that you don't do that? :B
also the travis configuration is weird now, it runs one no-dbg-no-zts, and one debug-zts ... so there's no no-zts-debug ...
19:45
@Wes lots of stupid people
@Tiffany It can be a good prank, if you think about it :P
@mega6382 about its only worth
I'm sure php used to have jenkins, I wonder if it was dropped for some reason ...
we did at ci.qa.php.net, it's gone though, I think ...
if we can't run all the builds we need to for free on these platforms, then we should just host our own CI ... it's surprising that there's no no-zts-debug build for CI, since that is the build internals devs and likely most people are actually using during development ...
@JoeWatkins you can check mine
although the build is broken since pear is dead
stupid fruit ...
someone should make noise on lists about bringing jenkins back, we've had to cut down CI so much on travis that it's almost worthless now ...
and it never really worked well on appveyor, surely it's not beyond us to source a windows build machine ?
I think we already have them actually, from ms, for release builds ...
all for the sake of stupid badges ...
there must be github hooks for it too, so it can be run for pulls, I suspect ...
20:04
@JoeWatkins it was brought up by cmb not too long ago
I can't get my @php.net email to work, so I can't make noise ... but we went from having a bunch of builds on jenkins, to 3 builds, one of which never ever works ... and the other two also occasionally take too long and are halted ...
we don't fit on travis or av, it's pretty clear ...
hello guys , can you help me with this problem stackoverflow.com/questions/48482496/…
@JoeWatkins someone should make some noise about getting your email working :P
@JoeWatkins you can make noise from any address :P
another thing that rarely works is subscriptions ...
I can't remember how I configured the address in gmail the first time ...
20:10
I'm pretty happy with our Travis
While AppVeyor is a great argument for why I will never ever use Azure cloud
@samayo ping
@JoeWatkins I like circleci :)
@NikiC it looks gutted out to me so we can run it, and it doesn't include the build everyone actually uses ...
I hate gmail and forwarding, I can't get the stupid thing to work
@JoeWatkins it doesn't?
there's no no-zts-dbg, isn't that what you use to develop ? by everyone I mean devs ...
20:24
I used to use zts+dbg
I'm now using no-zts+dbg only because there is basically zero difference between them anymore and no-zts has easier to debug globals
yeah, so we're not testing the build that you, dmitry, and everyone actually runs ...
Seems relatively low-value to me
I'd rather have a build on an exotic operating system
Like macos
I'd rather we had anything we can have confidence in ...
we can't have confidence for free, is the bottom line ...
ci was really great, we had loads of builds and ran loads of test suites ... now we have almost nothing
wat
You must have PHP mixed up with some other project ;)
iirc it ran wp test suites and such
20:29
Are you talking about that Jenkins thing?
Nobody ever looked at that
I used to, ty did when he was rm
Would be nice to have something that runs PHP projects of course
But, that takes resources. And I mainly mean human resources, not compute resources
@NikiC Doesn't @pmmaga have a jenkins set up doing exactly that?
20:32
36 mins ago, by pmmaga
although the build is broken since pear is dead
Is it safe to use assert (C macro) in exts?
ZEND_ASSERT is idiomatic for php
@Tiffany ah
Oh nice, thanks @JoeWatkins
@NikiC I dunno what to do about that ... the only reason I stopped looking at jenkins was because we used to run all the builds we needed on travis, but they've been eroded a lot, and now we're not even testing what you/we are working with ... I don't think it makes much sense ...
20:35
@JoeWatkins It's less about any particular combination, and more about toggling each of the important switches (debug/release, zts/nts, opcache or not). There just isn't much value in testing all the permutations that are possible there
Which is why I'm saying it would be more valuable to test things that are not part of those three switches, such as 32-bit vs 64-bit or other operating systems
E.g. failing 32-bit tests are a fairly common problem. dmitry is basically the only person who tests php on 32-bit
well isn't the only way to do that with our own CI ?
@PeeHaa should fix that though.. and remove 7.1 and add 7.4
Not necessarily
and given our own CI, wouldn't you just run all those permutations of zts/dbg/opcache anyway, since it's free ? and wouldn't that give you more confidence ?
but if we add jobs to travis, and I think it's supporting macos, then won't we just be back to square one with waiting several hours for travis to cancel our builds ?
I think travis can survive at least one more build ^^
I tried adding a macos build but failed because I know nothing about that
And debugging stuff by round-tripping via travis is quite slow
20:40
and if we add external suites, will it survive that ?
nope
I'm not saying we shouldn't have our own ci
If someone wants to do that, it would be great
I just don't think it's really a replacement for travis, which in particular also runs for PRs
you can't set jenkins up to do that ?
I don't mean you, personally, I mean can't that be done ?
It's probably theoretically possible, but I haven't seen a single project do that
with a Jenkinsfile in the root of the project, it should run also for PRs
that's only ever called from zend_compile_const_expr when case is ZEND_AST_CLASS_CONST... that also seems to assume it's a string, but it doesn't seem in use
20:44
@JoeWatkins circleci can do that easily
I'm just looking at circleci, I'm not sure what they can provide us for free ?
maybe we use more than one ci platform and split the builds across them is an option ?
@Ekin it's in use, check gcov likely the AST is formed so that it must be a string because class would have to be a string ...
ah, alright
I gotta do sleeping, nn all
 
1 hour later…
22:05
@tereško sorry, I was playing a game :)
I was making Tom Kha :D
played something interesting?
Looks tasty. I was going to instantly bookmark it, but then I read "chicken broth" and "lemon grass" ... I can't find those
anyway, I have a question
This is the first laptop: mediamarkt.ch/de/product/…
The Asus has a 16GB ram, but I am sure 8GB is enough for most things, so I am not taking that into consideration
22:29
@samayo as I see, the ASUS is the superior in this case
@samayo it has a better CPU, more ram (I suspect that the GPU will be doing -2GB there), uses PCIe instead of SATA2 for SSD, has smaller bezel, ligher
regarding chinese spies - I dont know (and would not care all that much, since I am using linux), but there is on downside: ASUS RMA has been shit lately
I mean, a lot of it is US pointing a finger, but there are other countries investigating it too
@Tiffany a lot of "cyber" news spots that you see on cable are actually "ads" from various security contractors
they tend to be full of shit :D
@tereško I don't watch TV or ads, so I have no idea what you mean, I mean that seriously.
22:36
@tereško Thanks. I thought the same, so I will go with Asus
@Tiffany you misunderstood. I said that most of "cyber news" are form of "native advertising"
I can see that, but there's enough there in recent years to still make me hesitant to use their stuff.
All the US-based manufacturers put some type of backdoor or exploit in one form or another. China doing the same at this point makes no difference. I actually encourage it. @Tiffany
I actually encourage it to be honest.
@samayo sure ... I know one such manufacture :D
Intel
but that's more of a server thing
I never went to bed ... I ended up working on uopz for rasmus ...
now I'm wide awake again ...
@tereško lullaby please ?
22:42
I was referring to IME having oddly many critical vulnerabilities discovered
I also heard above Lenovo, Microsoft, Dell ... pretty much everyone, including all the major social networking sites, and banks who collaborate under the guise of terrorism ...
@JoeWatkins well ... I tend to put on some "Warhammer Lore" video to black out to :D
@samayo those were issues related to SSL root certificates (especially Lenovo)
but that should be bypassed by clean OS reinstall (I think, dont quote me on that)
I think there is more at play here that what we are being told. That is why I am in favor for a huge power shift. We would be lied on or spied on, a lot less under the chinese to be honest :)
@JoeWatkins if you were serious, try "Skald"
@samayo there's a reason it's called the "Great Firewall of China"
not to mention all of the various issues China's had over the years, like Great Leap Forward
22:51
@samayo you sound unaware how dystopian China actually is
I am aware, including the latest events. But I don't have a shred of doubt that the world will be a better a place if China was to take the rein from the US.
its picking songs based on that one now ... they're all quite nice ... ta
Not sure why I would want to have a class that contains a method and a property known by the same name.
Is that common? Seems messy or at the least at risk of being confusing.
I'm guessing it's in the manual because it is possible even if not practical in practice.

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