« first day (2811 days earlier)      last day (2136 days later) » 

8:00 PM
I still don't fully understand the definition of CI. I've read the definition several times, but it doesn't click.
 
I don't really get it either honestly.
 
Wikipedia spells it out pretty plainly. I don't remember it doing that before. "In software engineering, continuous integration (CI) is the practice of merging all developer working copies to a shared mainline several times a day."
 
ThW
CI server != CI process
 
@Tiffany That makes my head explode with danger signs.
 
ThW
lot of people use a ci server to automate builds and streamline deployments, but do not use CI as a concept/process.
 
8:06 PM
@ThW so I'm back to where I was... not completely understanding it
 
Something must be wrong with Danack. He hasn't Wednesday'd yet.
 
ThW
CI as a concept can automate a production deployment from a commit, but to actually do this you need automated tasks/tests on several levels. But even if you do not have all of that you can use the same software (CI server) to automate stuff in your project.
 
When do you start work @DaveRandom?
 
@Allenph I'm 100% in France.
 
so high on something
 
8:18 PM
@Tiffany Probably PHP.
 
ello ello ello
 
@Fabor monday, although what I will actually be doing I still have no clue :-P
@Farkie o/ long time no see
 
How's it going?
 
@DaveRandom Going to wear trousers?
 
DaveRandom does not simply wear trousers
 
8:21 PM
or even complexly yes it's a word shut up
 
:D
 
#BringBackTheBananaHamock
 
be careful what you wish for
2
I am sitting not 10 feet from a mankini
 
lol
I can see this ending well
 
@Farkie what are you doing these days? I remember you left magma but I don't remember where you went
 
8:23 PM
I hereby withdraw my joke.
 
Got a question for the room I guess... So we have a service which receives roughly 200 events per second from different sources. Now some of our clients want to receive the data.. per client it could be maybe 20/s max. Do you think I should use a Websocket or Webhook? (or other)
 
that is, like, the polar opposite of how the internet works
 
yeah been at Purple for about 18months now :)
 
webhook gets my vote.
 
we sell da free wifiz
 
8:24 PM
@Farkie websockets definitely, that's exactly the sort of thing they are designed for, assuming that by "client" you mean "browser"
 
sorry client as in customer - likely a server script
 
OK, a thing they will be implementing themselves or...?
 
Sure, or developers on behalf of them. I'm sure we'd provide sample scripts to get them started though
either method
 
also, how much data does an "event" typically contain?
 
from 6Kb up to 10Mb
 
8:26 PM
like a packet?
or I guess multiple packets
 
KB/MB || Kb/Mb? :p
 
guessing bit since it's wifi
 
actually thinking about it, this would be after processing, so it's much more likely to be more like a json array with maybe 12 fields?
actually it's location data from routers :) Meraki kit sends small payloads (6KB), whereas something like Xirrus kit sends 10MB payloads
 
o_o
 
you really mean 10Mb, like 10 minutes of reasonable quality mp3 10MB
 
8:29 PM
Socket for sure then. :p
 
webhook just feels like it'd be good if it was like once per minute maybe
websocket feels more instant / better for smaller chunks of data
thought websockets are a bit harder to implement
 
yeh, for me webhook is kind of a non starter, there's a higher-than-acceptable level of unnecessary overhead, for me anyway
 
at the min there's an API where you request a days worth of data at a time, and it can take maybe 100 seconds to get a response, it's horrible
 
Wouldn't a web hook have the same problem?
You would have to have some kind of queue for when that happened.
 
I don't think so, as we'd be sending them the data per "event" rather than them essentially polling
 
8:33 PM
Oh, then their web server would handle the concurrent uploads if there was one.
 
hopefully :D makes it not my problem? hah
 
But consumers are dumb! :D
 
@Farkie you will still need to retain that no matter what you do, implementing a live stream would be a great thing to do (imo speaking as a pretend customer) but there needs to be a way for me to get historical data from when I'm not listening to it for whatever reason
 
it's usually the bigger customers that have this service anyway, so they usually have a software house do this sorta work for them
oh we do
I'm trying to get rid of the polling customers, which query the DB and cause a lot of strain on a massive DB
so if I can send them the data in near real-time, that'd be perfect for them
 
I'm slightly loathed to use websockets for server-server communication but in this case it might make sense, simply because nih application layer protocols are generally a bad idea and there is a rich set of tooling for almost every language you could name
 
8:37 PM
@NikiC I think I found a typo in the Typed Properties RFC:
> Such indirect modifications are also subject to property to checks
 
there was a typo in a URL for an RFC the other day
@DaveRandom you off to a new place?
 
@Farkie new employer but pretty much full remote
so yes, but not physically :-P
 
lol that's nice
 
so no pants everyday
 
that's normal for him
I've often seen him walking around Manchester with no pants on
 
8:40 PM
@LeviMorrison I went for a walk, now back to thinking we shouldn't throw or warn at all. You should be able to define equality and not ordering. Trying to order something that doesn't define ordering is on the user.
 
yeh @Farkie so thinking about it websockets are a good choice for you here, because you can keep it on well known ports so there shouldn't be any network infrastructure-related issues for your clients to implement it
but for crying out loud, don't push 10M frames, push notifications and make the main data payload pull-on-request :-P
 
Just need to work out how I get some specific data that usually gets "merged" at the api layer into the location side now
 
how's it coming in, HTTP req?
 
currently? yea
 
and what rdbms/doc store are you using?
(seems like a tangent but I have a reason :-P)
 
8:44 PM
well, at the moment that's through Aurora MySQL, but that's about to go into a fairly large redis, then it's getting summarised and being stored in s3 if it's any longer than a week old
(Instead of Aurora)
 
@Farkie oh sweet, well just bounce it all through redis pub/sub then
 
that's what I was thinking as it passes through there anyway
push it into a list and a pub sub at the same time
list for the live feeds in other places, and the pubsub for ex-"api users"
 
yeh, sounds like a winner
@Farkie can you possibly do the publish before the "merge" to circumvent that?
 
possibly - I've an idea what we can do - in say 1000 events, there's probably only 1 or 2 that I need to merge data into anyway, so I don't think it would be that big of a thing to merge
 
or (and I don't really like this but might be worth considering) just publish when the data comes in, and move the logic for persisting it to another daemon which is listening to the same channel
 
8:48 PM
@TheodoreBrown Thanks, fixed.
 
that will have a better SoC but probably adds fragility
 
hmm
so many options :D
 
no images lost either- yay!
 
oh that's the typo'd url: wiki.php.net/rfc/umaintained_extensions "umaintained"
 
token_get_all with TOKEN_PARSE flag fails to recognise close tag with newline – #76538
 
Wes
8:52 PM
you've been so farouche lately @PeeHaa
 
You are calling me french????
 
lol
 
Wes
lol
another effing farouche is that @jay guy
can't even autocomplete his nick
 
Where'd he go?
 
Wes
i heard he joined the village people as fireman
 
8:54 PM
@Wes I spoke briefly with him on wazzap last weekish
 
busy with police academy?
 
aye
 
Wes
ah right, not fireman, policeman :B
 
he can still stay at the YMCA
 
Wes
can he make sounds effects with his mouth yet?
 
8:57 PM
Dunno. Didn't ask :P
 
Wes
:B by the way, i haven't seen police academy in like 10 years... i think i know what i will do this week
 
lol
 
anyway heading off, cheers for the help all :) good luck in new job @DaveRandom
 
\o
 
Laters @Farkie
 
8:58 PM
ta o/
 
Wes
\o
 
also long time no see @PeeHaa :) bai
 
o/
 
@rtheunissen again, interfaces make this scenario an explicitly declared choice...
 
9:00 PM
@Danack That's weird porn
 
Wes
@Danack whats this :B do i want to know? :B
 
Dm'd.
 
Aww man. I guess I'll just RI search.
I can never unknow that. Thanks.
 
What a day- heading home. Talk to you guys later.
 
Wes
9:21 PM
HAAHHAAHAHAH
the video
 
@DaveRandom interfaces won't solve anything here. Both functions are optional and function intuitively in combination or separately.
 
9:40 PM
@rtheunissen yes, but the specific case where a sorting comparison is attempted on a class that only implements __equals() becomes an unambiguous error condition - essentially a type error, where throwing is appropriate - simply by virtue of being explicitly declared as Equatable but not Sortable
my argument here is not about the functionality itself, rather about the way in which the programmer's intent is expressed
 
I think I can't get past the fact that $a == $b and $b == $a can produce different outputs. Or worse $a < $b == true and $b < $a == true.. So the only solution to that is to only accept comparisons between instances of the same class, but I guess that makes it much less interesting to most people
 
Wes
no @pmmaga same comparator function
 
@Wes That would be fine IMHO. But the implementation is not doing that, not sure if @rtheunissen agrees
 
Wes
9:55 PM
ftr i am kinda against enforcing that kind of stuff. i'm sure it would prevent some basic comparisons from being possible
but i can totally see the average developer doing that stuff wrong... they aren't really educated about this kind of stuff... that's why an extension was a better solution for me
for example they need to forget inheritance and embrace composition if they want to implement equals() effectively
i doubt they are ready for that :B
@pmmaga
> I'd introduce a debug mode that forces php to call both $left->__equals($right) and $right->__equals($left) so that symmetry is guaranteed by design.
and error if the result is inconsistent
 
not super efficient but it would "work" :D
I think I still have some mails to catchup, I see now also the __eq, __gt, etc..
@Wes but with the previous idea, there would be 4 different places where your equality could be tested: __eq or __cmpTo in the left or in the right. That would be pretty confusing for a lot of people
 
Wes
it's a mess
people want magic and that's the result
i think we should work on removing sortability on object that have no order, rather than forcing everything to be sortable
it's a ridiculous feature to have
 
I think the idea in general could be useful, but I'd stick to one function and ensuring it is the same on both sides. Also, no coercion of the return type.. return true meaning 1 in __compareTo will cause a lot of headaches
 
Wes
new Sofa <=> new Goat;
i started to dislike the whole thing already lol
 
@DaveRandom Thanks very much for the help. I'm aware I need to sort out the refcounting, just wanted to get the thing working first
 
10:43 PM
> for example they need to forget inheritance and embrace composition if they want to implement equals() effectively

Can you explain that please @Wes
 
Wes
i explained it today, i thought i had cc'd you
 
@pmmaga this is honestly one of those cases where the dev just shouldn't be an idiot and follow the same logic when implementing $a and $b. It's a trade-off between flexibility+control vs restriction+symmetry.
 
Wes
classic example is this
class Point3D extends Point2D{}
you cannot implement an equals() that covers both 3D and 2D
 
You can achieve symmetry by implementing them correctly (which isn't difficult), but you can't get flexibility that isn't there in the first place.
 
Wes
not in in a language like php
 
10:45 PM
I would prefer opting for flexibility with clear guidelines and examples.
 
@rtheunissen yeah, I personally prefer the restriction+symmetry option.
 
@DaveRandom I'm going back and forth on this one a bit, but right now there will be no type error or warning if you compare something for ordering that doesn't define order or compare for equality where equality is not defined. Everything falls back to default behaviour.

All objects are already technically comparable, both for order and equality. I just don't see what value an interface can provide other than strict typehints (which we might not even want here). Knowing that a function implements __compareTo doesn't tell me anything, I can still use < and > regardless.
@pmmaga if PHP was a typed language, I would agree completely.
 
Wes
@rtheunissen aim at deprecating comparison of incomparable objects
imo
 
Now that's a good idea. :D
 
(tip: if you click the arrow on the right of a message you can reply to a specific message)
 
Wes
10:49 PM
43 mins ago, by Wes
new Sofa <=> new Goat;
 
"Comparing an object that doesn't implement __compareTo is deprecated"
That can be a separate RFC if this one passes, maybe?
 
Wes
a kid once asked me something like that, which is better, a sofa or a goat? and i was uh wat
:B
 
hahaha
 
the implied method_exists() pains me slightly, if only on behalf of the authors of static analysis and refactoring tools
it all just feels so... Javascript
 
@Wes Depends on if you're hungry or tired. :D
 
11:02 PM
@rtheunissen The value of the interface in this case is clarity. Technically a class having all the offset.. methods is enough to behave as an array, but the implements ArrayAccess makes it explicit
 
Wes
deprecate comparison of objects that have no natural order + interface is amazing for me
 
this coming from the guy that has an implicit interfaces branch lying around somewhere is worth very little :D but I still believe in this case it would be nicer
 
Wes
is php default comparator available as function?
something i can call compare($a, $b), or it's just available in <=> ?
 
dat burn ;)
 
Wes
imo if you deprecate and re-introduce it as function (compare($a, $b)) that people can use in *sort() you are going to be fine
 
11:05 PM
@pmmaga that's because not all objects support array access by default. Calling $a[0] on an object that doesn't define array access behaviour makes no sense and is undefined. But comparing an object that doesn't have __compareTo still works.
 
Wes
i doubt people does that, but if they do, they can still revert patch it with compare()
 
A very good case for interfaces on top of these methods (which I might add now that I think of it..) is for when we eventually deprecate the default behaviour.
When that "all objects are already comparable" breaks, we're in trouble.
 
@rtheunissen Well, all objects are also serializable, but the interface Serializable defines a new behavior
 
If we had a __serialize method, would we need the interface?
 
you have __sleep and __wakeup that do that without the interface.. but having both options is bad
 
11:17 PM
@rtheunissen Why on the user?
Keep in mind if we defined an __equals but not a __compareTo then the built-in ordering is practically guaranteed to be wrong.
 
If you're calling sort on an array of objects that don't compare __compareTo, that's your choice. We have no reason to disallow that other than to tell them "this is potentially risky and probably not what you want". I'd rather deprecate the existing behaviour going forward and then fail hard when comparing an incomparable.
As it stands, that object that doesn't implement __compareTo is still perfectly valid for comparison for ordering, even if that object implements __equals.
 
11:58 PM
 

« first day (2811 days earlier)      last day (2136 days later) »