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4:00 PM
I couldnt decide what I tought about it
Like yea nice, easy to switch between webservers.. buuuut.. meh
 
hmmm. What if the application server was embedded, with no persistent storage
serving the state would be a workaround
 
Great case, but in the specifics we are talking a web app, normally I would put state in memcache or Redis so its easy to balance it out on multiple webservers
 
@MadaraUchiha what?
Context?
 
4:18 PM
in JavaScript, 11 mins ago, by Sterling Archer
user image
11
 
@tereško #EPIC
 
4:37 PM
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/36401041/how-to-show-header-file-i‌​n-different-view-in-codeigniter
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/36408238/modify-osm-pathoverlay
 
4:52 PM
e'nin
 
!!imdb fifty shades of black
 
[ Fifty Shades of Black ] 2016, Michael Tiddes
 
@PeeHaa could you make Jeeves also give the rating along side the link?
 
The rating really is the deciding factor. I don't have time to watch and then judge, I need my judgements up front
 
4:56 PM
^
 
a monkey after my own heart
 
user5020521
5:32 PM
can anyone look at my pastebin? I can't find what is wrong with this INSERT INTO pastebin.com/xNCuQ0vP
 
what is happened here?
 
user5020521
I can't execute the transaction
 
I saw some stupid language and deleted messages.
 
it's monday.
 
RFC is accepted with 37 against 4 votes. Been on discussion for 2 weeks. Been on vote for one week. What's wrong with you guys?
if you have some concerns, you should told it before.
 
5:36 PM
I'd say the people you want to speak with are not present right now. I have a faint idea what you are talking about
 
I am getting one sentenced emails, concerns without advises, stupid messages... So what?
They were talking while I was not here.
If you have concerns go to that mail group and give that feedback. bye
 
Your intervention leaves little place for an actual wish to do that, if I may.
 
@tereško I love how blunt the guy is
 
I think I have watched already 8h of DB-related talks today
.. I really should going back to my ZFS research instead
 
5:47 PM
@MidoriKocak I believe NikiC did send a pretty comprehensive email before the vote was closed: news.php.net/php.internals/91945 Your reply was just a link to a site, and didn't seem to address the implementation concerns.
And this room is just for people who find it convenient, it's obviously up to you to choose how you want to communicate.....but people are trying to help. Replying to what you think is a too short email with a very short email of your own, probably doesn't help resolve the situation.
 
@Danack to be fair, there are probably more voting members in this chat room, than in the pecl IRC channel
 
wow
 
Almost certainly a communications problem I think @JoeWatkins
 
Does anyone know if WordPress has a PHP for a site search/Does wordpress have a built in search?
 
6:03 PM
@Tarson not AFAIK. The best option would be to build one yourself with sphinxsearch.com
using SQL for search is kinda "limited"
 
@tereško It has it built in. I found it by doing url.com/search/WhatISearchedFor
 
then it's probably shit
 
@tereško Its not bad it just typos dont show up
so a character off shows no results
 
(and this has nothing to do with either hate or love of wordpress, SQL based search is really just that bad)
 
o.O
 
6:10 PM
Only thing is I dont see were the "Nothing Found" page is being generated. I'm looking at Search Result php and I see know where it resembles that page. Such as a Searchbar and button I think that maybe wordpress generating that
 
@Sara I dunno what's happened ...
 
some php-internals clusterfuck again?
 
@Sara if you have a non-email and non-chat room communication path to her, it might be worth discussing elsewhere......the emails on internals are not productive...
 
@tereško are you job hunting at the moment?
 
@MadaraUchiha I was on a hunt an interview today
 
6:12 PM
 
@Danack I haven't even caught up to that yet, I was out in the mountains checking on uncle grandpa all weekend.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum do you guys offer remote?
 
no problem - I have no useful input to this other than "email isn't that great".
 
I made a sweet SearchOverlay today if anyone would like to see go over to: codepen.io/RTarson/pen/dMZMRx
It's easy cut'n paste if you want to use.
 
I or someone else probably done something wrong ...
 
6:16 PM
That statement is probably true ^
 
we weren't happy with the impl, we tried to make it clear on the PR, then tried to make it clear when she came in here, then it didn't matter any more because I thought we were going to use your implementation @Sara
but the vote went ahead anyway ... I remember mentioning I'd rather it was stopped ...
none of this is a personal attack on the person who wrote the code, in case not clear ...
 
Why when I use xdiff_string_diff() it gives me an error: that function is undefined. What's the problem? I use PHP 5.6.20
 
probably unhappy about niki's comments re attitude ...
 
Intense thunder outside
 
6:24 PM
@AnmolRaghuvanshiVersion1.0 thank you ...
@RonniSkansing Well enjoy it .. I love thunder
 
6:42 PM
@Ocramius do you have any advice about how to prevent reveal.js overlapping the edge of an iPhone screen, when it works fine on a desktop, other than to just leave more gap or not worry about iPhones?
This page is fine on computer - docs.basereality.com/InterfaceSegregation/#/13 - the code block goes off the edge ios screens apparently.
 
@Danack what is an iPhone?
 
The kids use them.
 
jokes apart, I just use the defaults: if it doesn't work correctly, I don't really care :|
 
\o/
 
heh, not a frontend person. I'm not picky on that
 
6:48 PM
I'm not a front-end person, but I am picky if shit isn't pixel perfect
 
Yeah, I'm more like...
ya know
 
maybe of interest to people who put code in slides: github.com/thejameskyle/spectacle-code-slide
 
I'd love to integrate that, but I'm not going to set up react to do that :D
(already seen it)
 
oh, it's react? ew
 
Yep, so you have to run gulp/grunt/webpack/etc etc to just get a static presentation file up
 
6:50 PM
@Leigh my brain saw: "oh, it's retarded? ew"
 
Yea I just saw it on a daily hacker news skim, watched gif, starred, moved on
 
Not that reveal is much easier, but at least I don't need to learn 10 frameworks to put up <section><h1>fucking slides</h1><h2>motherfucker</h2><img src="pulp-fiction.png" alt="do you read it?"/></section>
 
on an unrelated subject - looks like I have offended someone at some point .. someone has downvoted both of my "questions"
 
@tereško we all hate you, don't worry
 
that's fine
 
6:55 PM
Can I downvote them too?
 
Nah I dont hate you
 
most of you would also be able to afford downvoting answers (downvoting questions is free)
 
I love revenge downvoters. Especially ones savvy enough to not trip the downvote spree detection.
My top answer has like 250 upvotes and one revenge downvote.
 
I still get SO rep and I have no idea why
 
6:56 PM
btw, @MadaraUchiha, would it be possible to delete a question? This one is a really clumsy question with actually wrong answers
 
you know there was a story about jon skeet on the bbc news today ...
 
lol
 
The internet is leaking.
 
@Charles Overflowing.
 
Touche.
 
6:58 PM
@tereško Looking
 
yesterday, but by today in was in the most read section in general news
 
the question is shit, answers are worse and I was forced to award the wrong answer to prevent a WORSE answer from getting auto-award
 
@JoeWatkins I liked the "Jon's expertise in his field is unmatched" ~Random Indian Guy
3
 
hehe
 
evenings
 
7:03 PM
e'nin ekin
 
o/
 
@JoeWatkins Just think how much he could achieve if he didn't waste time preaching
 
@Leigh LOL ... but I don't think we're supposed to laugh at that ...
 
@Leigh being a programmer does not make you immune against delusions
user image
9
 
7:20 PM
That sentence makes me think of TempleOS
 
@MadaraUchiha If you're going to trust anyone's opinion about quality programming, make sure it's some random person from India. ;)
 
I liked this one better
 
it's the same series
also, who the fuck upvoted those terrible questions
 
Links?
 
one of the same that I asked you about deleteing
seriously, people
if I were to beg for more fake internet points, I would write something interesting first
 
@MadaraUchiha I think he means this stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/php
 
btw, one thing I learned - don't set 500 point bounties on question that does not have any answers yet. Go with 100 or 200 maybe.
 
And PHP just passed 900k questions
 
@tereško Yeah, I learned that the hard way too
That's why I haven't written that DataMapper question from way back and bountied it 500 in advance to motivate you
Because there was a chance that it wouldn't motivate you and some other noob would answer crappily and would get half of it (at least)
 
@Machavity we could get it back to 800k, if we autodeleted all the ones containing "undefined index" in the title
 
7:35 PM
@tereško It's actually pretty amazing that you're only off by one order of magnitude.
Unholy crap there's a lot of them :o
 
:D
@MadaraUchiha join those with ones that have the same sample in the body
 
Just [php] "undefined" pulls up 20k....
 
@MadaraUchiha the worst part is that I have got to the point, that the only 100% correct answer, which I could honestly give, would be "it kinda depends"
... and then continue by writing a book
 
Yeah
I've come to not exactly like the DataMapper pattern for everything though
You get n*m classes, it doesn't scale very well
 
that's not really true either
 
7:38 PM
You need a class per entity per storage type
Of course, you wouldn't need all storage types for all entities
But it's in the order of n*m
 
let's say you have "language collection"
there is no point in having a mapper for a single Language entity
while you _might_ use a language list for something, you will never use that structure alone
and the same applies for a lot of stuff that you only access using pivot tables
 
this is my htacess file code
<Directory "public_html/aanshi/test/_cat_img">
Order Deny,allow
Deny from all
</Directory>


<Directory "public_html/aanshi/test/_cat_img/thumb">
Order Deny,allow
Deny from all
</Directory>
 
@Leigh That's a bit harsh. I mean just because he's enthusiastic about C# is no worse than people liking PHP.
 
i want to restrict use in for access _cat_img and thumb folder but with this code it's not possible
 
7:42 PM
the real clusterfuck emerges when you consider mappers that alter entities VS mappers that construct entities (as per DDD) .. and then you have te surrounding infrastructure of Units of Work and repositories and identity maps
 
i dont know where is my mistake
 
@tereško I've come to draw away from traditional OO in search of alternative paradigms
OO is nice at first, but when you really get to scale, OO starts getting in your way more than help you out
 
@MadaraUchiha alternative is functional .. and mix of both
 
As in, you add more and more complexity, and get smaller and smaller impact.
@tereško Not necessarily.
Other forms of OO are also possible, and pretty interesting.
JS's prototypal OO or even functional OO (where you use functions to create object literals with methods you want) is interesting
Lisp's CLOS is also very interesting
(inb4 FlorianMargaine jumps into the conversation)
 
How does OO get in the way when you want to scale?
 
7:46 PM
well, I have growing distrust in the DDD - I see it bad arrangement of decent ideas
 
@RonniSkansing You start having more and more layers of abstraction, or your layers grow very large with lots of loosely connected objects with varying degrees of naming clariity
 
@RonniSkansing he's referring to 20k line+ projects (that's were simple OO starts breaking down)
 
Or, worse, in Java's case, you have very deep inheritance trees that never end.
 
@Danack I've started telling people to actively avoid php
 
OO encourages incremental growth
 
7:48 PM
developer market manipulation
 
Which is a good business model, but not a very good development model.
"I need extra functionality? I'll just extend this class"
That works very well for the first 10 times or so
Then you regret it for the rest of the program's lifetime.
 
I am not sure I follow.. lets say we have a microservice arch.. the size of each size code be 1 to 20k lines.. do not see how OOP han anything to do with the scaling
 
@RonniSkansing Not scaling of performance
 
yeah, my brain has a limit - and your ability to grasp shit is more of logarithmic line
 
unless you build a ugly monolith =)
 
7:49 PM
I think they mean scaling within a single codebase, not across a whole service / project
 
Scaling of maintainability, and readability.
 
@MadaraUchiha he means splitting up large projects in independent applications
 
@MadaraUchiha Auryn is actually very useful in avoiding deep trees of responsibilities.
 
@tereško That's nearly never possible with an organically developed application.
 
i know :(
 
7:50 PM
@tereško And that's exactly it, that's exactly because of how OO works
 
bit it actually is a good direction
 
You glorify The State
 
@MadaraUchiha hmmm... wouldn't that rather be because of real-life constraints?
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier No
With OO, your main interest in the program is The State
 
as of itself, oop doesn't encourage cluttering things that don't belong, I think
 
7:51 PM
I do see your point that much time can go lost in understanding and building abstractions instead of core
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Modelling the state into an object graph in-memory, and have the various entities interact with each other, in response to various inputs
 
@MadaraUchiha well, here is one thing that is definitely not part of solution: procedural code
because that I heard suggested like 3 days ago
 
procedural is great for scripts =)
 
Maintaining this state (which is effectively global, and mutable, from the higher perspective) is what OO is all about.
 
@RonniSkansing my scripts dont have 20k lines
 
7:53 PM
PHP has an added layer of no persistent memory, so you also need to persist that object graph into tables/documents in your database
That's not the case with most Java/C#/Node applications with actual usable persistent memory.
 
@MadaraUchiha or about the way objects communicate together, in the goal of maintaining that state
 
3 mins ago, by Madara Uchiha
@tereško That's nearly never possible with an organically developed application.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yes, in order to maintain the state of the world, you create abstractions and entities that speak to each other
 
no, this is nearly never possible, because good system architects are rare
 
this unscalability you mention seems to be related to a misplacement of the way classes are organized
 
7:54 PM
@tereško I wish the app I was dealing with had 20k lines
I'm dealing with code that after minification and bundling is over 500KB of JavaScript.
 
@MadaraUchiha 20k lines is the magical number at which OOP breaks down
if you have 50k, and are still stuck in OOP - you are fucked
 
the teresko coefficient
3
 
@Leigh it's actually academic number, I am not pulling it out of my ass
 
Last coulpe of projects i worked with have been between 50 and 100k lines of entangled oop
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier No, that's not it.
Maintaining all that very complex state in memory is hard.
And writing all those abstractions that make writing and reading to/from that state is how we solve that difficulty
 
7:56 PM
7 mins ago, by Madara Uchiha
"I need extra functionality? I'll just extend this class"
 
@RonniSkansing well - how do you "grow" a system architect?
 
But eventually, those abstractions make it nigh impossible to understand your code in a reasonable time.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier This happens
 
@tereško by making them deal with tangled messes of 100k+ for a decade :p
 
And the OO paradigm (and pretty much every OOP 101 tutorial ever sells that as OO's greatest advantage) encourages it.
 
of course it does, which propels me to think it does have a part in making it hard to understand code
 
7:58 PM
@Leigh definitely not. That's how you get "senior developers" who have not learned a single new thing in 5 years
 
Actually, that feels about right
 
Its true
 
I mean it feels right because I am one of those people :x
 
When I code for myself, I spend a lot of time rewriting existing code
Probably more so than writing new code.
Because that's how I keep the tangles out
 
I wish I had more desire to code for myself, work sucks it out of me
 
8:01 PM
@Leigh I worked with such developer ~2 years ago. His proudest innovation was splitting up the 5000+ line class in 5 classes of 1000-ish lines, each inheriting one another in a chain and having alphabetically ordered methods
locking developer in a dark room for 10 years do not make him a guru
 
@MadaraUchiha that's what extending class guy should think before doing it. which implies such kind of constant refactoring. but real life constrains, such as a boss, seem to get in the way of that.
 
@tereško It makes them someone who spent 10 years in a dark room.
 
The current conversation is giving me the worst case of imposter syndrome.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I deliver functionality for my own projects at about the same time I do for my full time job.
 
Hey, nothing wrong with spending 10 dark years in a room
 
8:03 PM
Despite relatively similar complexity...
 
having someone to work 10 years on a gargantuan codebase does not make him a system architect
 
Its all about being happy, playing nice and ..
 
@Charles am I targeted?
 
Y'all are.
I'm that guy. The one that was stuck with a huge codebase.
 
8:04 PM
@tereško For example, Common Lisp's version of OO revolves around the concept of generic functions
And not around the object being a stateful entity with behavior.
 
I was straightjacketed by the constraints of the system. No way to sanely bring the architecture into this decade, no less this year. The time needed exceeded management's desire to deal with it.
Now I'm sitting here trying to write a more modern codebase to demonstrate that I know what I'm doing...
 
I'm still probing it, so I can't really say much about how useful it is in a real life situation (@FlorianMargaine can probably attest to that better than I can)
 
... I'm still trying to decide if this demonstration is for my future employers, or for myself.
 
@Charles I know your pain :(
 
@MadaraUchiha I don't think this is something, that you can solve using "language tools"
 
8:05 PM
@Charles Open up an open source project of your choosing, take an open ticket, and solve it.
@tereško Me neither
This is the very definition of OO that causes these problems
 
OO is a "language tool"
 
@tereško Look, at the end of the day, this is a human problem
 
yes
 
I disagree
 
It doesn't matter what language or toolsets you use, someone who you don't trust will come and fuck it up
3
 
8:06 PM
@MadaraUchiha Yeah, the trick is both finding a sane project and a ticket with a low enough barrier to entry.
 
@MadaraUchiha those brains were made for banging two rocks together
 
Unless you work with a team of exclusively talented people who think alike, you'll have these problems, always
 
Common Lisp will solve all your problems and you will fart unicorns
4
 
@Charles Maybe find someone who wants to work on a project with you? At least then it won't be 100% down to you to write new code, you can spot improvements in someone else's, and they can do the same with yours.
 
@tereško did the job talk go okay?
 
8:10 PM
@RonniSkansing yes. Sent of code samples (github). They promised answer in 2-3 days.
 
@Leigh Maybe. I'm gonna keep going down the route I'm going right now, as I've found a passion for completing this project.
 
Good luck and best wishes on the work place
 
@Charles maybe ... lower standards ?
 
lol, just read this in a old tweet..
"911 Stack Overflow, what's your emergency?"
"HELP my bones are all broken I need an ambulance."
"Why an ambulance? Just use jQuery, idiot."
 
lol
 
8:20 PM
@JoeWatkins More like a mental effort kind of thing. First I have to find a project that I wouldn't mind being associated with, then I have to find a problem in it I can actually fix as a newbie to it...
 
you know of some projects you would work on, if you didn't mind being associated with them ?
 
@RonniSkansing brb creating jQuery.fn.ambulance plugin
@Charles you normally don't just jump right into a project and starts fixing things with PRs
 
@JoeWatkins No. That's the main problem.
 
You read the docs, you lurk in the issues for a bit, you understand the whos and the whats, and then you approach with a PR
 
I mean, the only thing I've found that I know has problems is Doctrine, and there's no way in hell I'm gonna be able to help there. I still need to produce a reduced test case for the problem I'm having...
 
8:24 PM
You can also open an issue, and say that you're interested in trying to fix this yourself, and that you want guidance from the maintainers.
Most maintainers I know would be more than happy to hold your hand for your first PR
 
Yeah, and while that might work for large projects, the ones with the highest learning curves aren't the ones I want to worry about yet.
 
I'll bet nearly everything you use has open issues ... all of the things @Madara is saying are making sense ...
 
Yup, doing stuff like this is on my list of things to do.
But I'm not going to worry about it right at this moment in time :)
 
:)
I won't worry either ...
hehe
@MidoriKocak wanna chat ?
 
8:44 PM
11 messages moved to Trash can
 
@MadaraUchiha I do, am I weird?
 
@FlorianMargaine Just experienced with OS
@Charles likely isn't.
 
OO?
ah
open source
 
Using, yes, contributing, no.
 
8:47 PM
I dislike git, and thus have avoided contributing on github :p
 
planning, carefully considering to any extent, ones involvement is probably smart whatever ...
 
@Charles I've contributed to a fair share of projects... contributing to a new one is fairly easy
some are harder than others...
 
@Charles Git is... kind of a critical tool in 2016 :P
 
yeah ...
but ...
 
@Charles have you tried SourceTree, which makes it bearable imo...
 
8:48 PM
The user interface was designed by blithering morons. I hate it wildly.
I'm currently using hg-git.
 
@Charles The user interface was designed by C developers
 
Works well enough, lets me use sane commands here and push & pull to git.
 
multiple times I've put in PR's to stuff, just to fix them, and then I'm given commit access or made collab ... that puts pressure on me to be involved ... so then I'm involved ... and now ... I'm spread too thin most of the time ...
 
@JoeWatkins "puts pressure on me to be involved" no it doesn't
 
so now I'll give patches to other people, send them via someone at work or something ...
it does ...
 
8:49 PM
It just means that the maintainer trusts you enough to not require review of your PRs anymore
 
@Danack I'll have to try it out on a machine that isn't this one. No Linux version...
 
It doesn't mean "ONE OF US, ONE OF US, ONE OF US"
I've been given commit access to plenty of repos I never touched again :D
 
@MadaraUchiha it's so subtle, but this has happened on the first PR ... and it assumes there is going to be more, there probably will be ... but I don't need the pressure ...
 
@JoeWatkins vOv I think you're reading into it a bit too much
 
I was awake at half four this morning, debugging extensions I don't use, for versions of PHP I don't use ...
doesn't feel like it ...
 
8:52 PM
@JoeWatkins So... stop.
I mean, personally, I wouldn't grant commit access to a repo after one PR, not because of pressuring someone, but mainly due to trust issues.
If you gave me more than 2-3 useful PRs, I'll assume you want to be involved, and you know your way around the project, I'll contact you
Don't forget that you have a name @JoeWatkins
You're a member of the PHP internals, you wrote the hottest PHP debugger, you maintain a bunch of extensions
So people want to invite you to maintain their projects
That doesn't mean you have to agree.
It doesn't even mean you have to respond.
 
I don't know how to do that
 
And you overachieving makes the rest of us look bad :D
 
@JoeWatkins You press "unsubscribe" on the repo and close the tab.
Really, I'm glad I found out about you, now I'm going to give you commit access to all my old repos, and have you maintain them for me, and you wouldn't say no :D
 
I can't help but think if that were me, and I was reaching out to someone like that and they ignored me, not only would I be pissed, but I'd think that person rather arrogant, even if only for a short while until something equally trivial was occupying whatever part of the brain cares about that shit ...
I don't wanna be that guy ...
 
8:59 PM
it's easier just to do it ...
 

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