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5:00 PM
Danack is really correct in what he's saying
 
@ziGi there's folder creation failure, path failure, filename failure, compile failure etc..
 
ok
that is handled failure, since you know on the back end when this happens
 
can any one can write forumla for this
The integer portion of the number, tttttt, represents the fractional portion of a 24 hour day. For example, 6:00 AM is stored as 0.25, or 25% of a 24 hour day. Similarly, 6PM is stored at 0.75, or 75% percent of a 24 hour day.
i'm sorry been dumb at this point
 
Tell me how you handle successful replays to the AJAX post
 
@ziGi with echo
 
5:02 PM
posted on February 19, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by daMax */

 
that is ok, but I guess you return JSON objects right?
 
damn gtg already noon, be back after lunch I have an apointment
 
@JonathanLafleur Each of these could be a separate exception (or just a generic YourLibraryException with a different message for each one) - but yes, exceptions are the way of communicating that something went wrong from a deep application layer to the top one.
 
I return a logfile
I'll try exceptions thank you guys !
 
@Danack additionally you can do logging if you have exceptions caused by DB failures etc. so you know that something is wrong and show generic message to the user
 
5:04 PM
Yes. So long as you know what you're doing
That article does have a single serious error in it, but the rest is correct imo.
 
@rdlowrey looks okay
 
user895378
@NikiC So you don't mind working on the patch for that if I announce it on the list later today?
 
@DaveRandom is a catchall to a different domain "normal"?
 
@rdlowrey yeah. maybe I should just implement a patch right away
to make sure everything works
 
And commit it while no-one is watching.
 
user895378
5:08 PM
@NikiC Okay, I'll hold off sending anything to the list until I hear from you.
 
@PeeHaa Meaning catchall forwarder for domain-a.com forwards all messages to mailbox@domain-b.com, or <address>@domain-a.com is fowarded to <address>@domain-b.com?
 
user895378
@Danack The key is coordinated commit activity. You need someone else to run interference.
 
Both are usually supported by most platforms
 
user895378
So you commit your thing at like 3am. Meanwhile you have some PRs you want to merge immediately before and after your commit and you then have someone else push distractions like .phpt test updates ;)
 
@rdlowrey Yeah - we need a few people doing many merges and then sneak a small commit in between :)
 
user895378
5:10 PM
Exactly!
 
@DaveRandom yeah that first thing
 
@LeviMorrison debugging a production system, or perhaps staging environment, you can switch between 0 and 1 without cache regeneration ...
 
@PeeHaa Oh right, well yeh I've done that loads of times (it's how all my domains work, forwarding everything on to gmail)
 
@Danack I know some people who are developing in Java even use aspect oriented programming to add an additional wrapper level of final exception checking and logging, which I find a bit hacky but he says that it helps a lot with notifications about foul code that hasn't been caught because of improper code logic.
 
@rdlowrey We may want to forbid by-reference returns from generators
 
5:12 PM
It's down to the host though, not every platform supports it and not every package comes with the feature
 
@NikiC why?
 
user895378
@NikiC I have no problems with that. If you think it's a good idea I'm happy to add it to the RFC.
 
@bwoebi It's useless feature and pita to implement
 
@DaveRandom Cock. Zimbra doesn't seem to support it
 
@NikiC It's not more useless than by-ref on normal funcs/methods.
@NikiC and sure it's a PITA with php 7?
 
5:14 PM
@bwoebi Of course it is. by-ref return is only useful for __get etc and this is not relevant for gens
 
user895378
I can imagine scenarios where people return things by-ref and then they're never ever freed and you create pernicious memory leaks in long-running applications.
 
@PeeHaa I imagine there are 3rd party services to do it that you could point the MX to (never looked though)
 
@rdlowrey Why on the earth one should return something by-ref besides objects that are reference types by default?
 
user895378
They shouldn't :)
 
@NikiC I'm not sure, but is it really a PITA?
 
5:16 PM
@NikiC and that's really just a workaround of using arrays instead of objects
 
@bwoebi yes. because getReturn will need to return by-ref or by-val depending on the generator
 
@ircmaxell It's frivolous, but you could mention that use strict; currently is used for critical functionality that would be seriously broken as an argument against it ;)
 
oh hai @Andrea
evening all
 
@JoeWatkins hi ^^
 
@Andrea :-)
 
5:19 PM
@NikiC you can always return by ref… but once it's a refcount == 1 (equal to by-val) and once it's a refcount > 1. (by-ref)
 
I'd actually like to patch HHVM to fix that issue with it, but I don't have the patience to build it...
 
ahah that easter egg is just funny
 
@NikiC But maybe… first do the patch, then we can look at how easy it is to add it?
 
@bwoebi if we always return ref you could use the retval in ref context irregardless of whether it returned a ref
@bwoebi Just look at the crap we do for closure __invoke
I am not willing to do a memory allocation to support someones crap reference code
 
mhm… well… just first do the simple patch, then I can see myself if it's a PITA, okay?
 
5:25 PM
/s/irregardless/regardless/
 
user895378
@NikiC Should you find the generator return patch straightforward, consider this my advance offer to also write up an RFC for yield from should it be possible to implement it sanely/quickly for 7.0 ;)
 
@Andrea I'll point fred at it, he likes jokes
 
@bwoebi I am against this in principle, for the record
 
@NikiC not sure which crap… (master) I just see a simple zend_call_user_func
 
That's why he works with PHP.
*rimshot*
 
5:28 PM
news.php.net/php.internals/83228 <-- I don't know how else to say it...
 
@bwoebi We allocate a temporary function with the correct return-by-reference-ness
 
internals is alive, with the sound of Anthony and Zeev arguing ... it's almost nostalgic :D
 
@Sara yay!
 
@Sara I will write an apology email shortly (after this meeting). Thanks for clarifying
It was mostly Francois's mail that set me off (the private and the public one)
 
5:29 PM
@ircmaxell I'm sorry to have put you in that spot by misrepresenting zeev's involvement
 
@NikiC where?
 
@Sara I'm sorry to have put you in the spot as well
 
@Andrea hah, oh well
 
though, for the record, I'm glad what was said was said, because I do know of other instances of that happening (people have contacted me on the side). It's just not my place to say anything. The only reason I said it in your case was because you said it in a public chat room...
 
@ircmaxell I woke up to DMs from Ze'ev asking what he'd said
 
@ircmaxell I would not be surprised to hear of instances like it, yeah.
@Andrea I think fred might have been trying to pull you into hhvm dev with that
@Andrea We'd all quite like your intelligence and energy
@Andrea But I know you like... a student and stuff.... "studying"...
We do internships...
 
heh
 
@NikiC hmm… not sure. I'd need to play with your patch later to see if there's an easy way or not…
@Sara why are you always putting an apostrophe in the middle of Zeevs name? :o
 
@bwoebi Because that's how he spells it.
 
@Sara oh okay
 
5:34 PM
is it really ...
 
It gets anglicized all over the place though, so it usually looks like Zeev
 
that's how it is on twitter ...
 
user895378
You know, like B'laké
 
user895378
obscure comedic reference is obscure.
 
@zeevs Random question unrealted to RFCs. Is it "Zeev" or "Ze'ev"? I've been writing the latter for years, am I insane?
 
5:38 PM
ah good, research ...
 
I'm kinda hoping it turns out to be Z'e'e'v
 
what do you think ' is replacing ? moar e ?
 
"\u{921fd}Z\u{e1810}'\u{e1810}v"
 
hehe
 
A glottal stop.
AIUI, it's more like zev, then zeev in pronunciation
 
5:40 PM
@SaraMG I got used to writing it as Zeev, to avoid SQL injections I guess back in the 90′s :)
3
brilliant ...
 
Haha :-)
 
That seems to mean I'm right.
Woot
 
user895378
@JoeWatkins I don't understand why assert (false, "..."); is better than throw new Exception('...'); ... can you explain the logic?
 
@JoeWatkins :D
 
it does, 1 internet point for @Sara
 
5:41 PM
@JoeWatkins ahahahaha
 
@rdlowrey It's about skipping checks in production envs
 
@rdlowrey it's optimized away in prod
 
The irony being that Zeev, as one of PHP's "co-architects", is possibly responsible for the problems he had ;)
 
user895378
Ah I see.
 
@rdlowrey what those guys said ...
 
user895378
5:42 PM
Ping avalanche.
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/28613043/… the files should be shown in the web browser in a custom way with some functionalitys
 
I've no idea how that is made into two syllables ...
 
people, use IPA to describe pronunciations
English has very... loose spelling.
[zeʔev] is how Ze'ev/Zeev is pronounced
/ʔ/ (dotless question mark) is a glottal stop
/z/ and /v/ are what you think they are
/e/ is the "ea" in "great"/"slate"/"hate" without the "y" at the end
 
@Andrea You need to know it in order to use it ^^
 
@NikiC it should be taught in schools, it's really easy to pick up and an invaluable tool
 
5:46 PM
yeah ... I remember everything
I was taught at school ...
I don't think we are though, are we ?
 
No, it'd be great if it was though
It'd be useful for teaching English spelling, at the very least
 
@Andrea But is it (invaluable)?
 
Also useful for teaching foreign language pronunciations (French, German, whatever)
 
we learned this in school, however in class 6 or so, when you normally dont care about anything school related
 
@NikiC Yes, because it's the only way to unambiguously write down a pronunciation
 
5:48 PM
@Andrea Which is something I need all the time ... ?
 
It comes in handy sometimes. :p
 
I mean, I totally get that it's useful for you, but for most people
 
@NikiC no, but nor is the difference between igneous and non igneous rocks ...
 
Useful if only to teach English and second-language spelling.
 
I learnt Latin - which means I can understand my school's song. Who needs to be able to pronounce modern languages?
 
user895378
5:50 PM
I don't know why we don't just spell everything using the PGP word list.
 
And again, it annoys me that some people are putting line breaks in their mails at 80 (?) chars on internals :-(
 
@rdlowrey What should getReturn() do if an exception was thrown?
 
@bwoebi some people quote without breaks yet use breaks in their own writing...
 
@JoeWatkins I have no idea what an igneous rock is. But I get your point ^^
 
user895378
@NikiC Hmm ... my first inclination is null there because the generator is no longer valid but there was no return ...
 
user895378
5:51 PM
I'm not sure.
 
user895378
Then again, if you call Generator::getReturn() after it has already thrown that's probably a logic error.
 
It's mainly annoying… a small wall of text and then 80%+ of the screen white :s
 
@Andrea My keyboard doesn't have a ʔ key :p
 
@Sara nobody's does
 
But anyway, I must off to work
 
5:53 PM
@bwoebi 80, or 76? If they're breaking at 80, they're doing oldschool pedantic linebreaks wrong.
 
@NikiC I'd say throw the exception. Nothing was returned, so…
 
user895378
@NikiC I think throw again in that case. Any time a return; statement was either (1) not present or (2) not reached it should throw.
 
@Charles no idea, I didn't count…
 
@rdlowrey I am agree
 
user895378
Actually, are we sure it should throw if no return was there?
 
5:54 PM
can anyone say it any differently to Stas so he gets what I'm talking about static analysis?
 
@rdlowrey a return is always present ^^
 
user895378
Okay, so we're on the same page.
 
@ircmaxell No, I don't talk to Stas
He twists words too much.
 
@rdlowrey yup, imply a return null.
 
user895378
will update the draft to state that explicitly ...
 
5:58 PM
@Sara btw, do you have objections to allowing return in generators?
 
:-/
 
@bwoebi Oh, stupid thing
Our argument was for nothing
I forgot that we already use & with generators to specify by-reference yield...
so we literally can't return by-ref
 
@NikiC Uh… I'd now imply that we should mirror yield behavior to return, intuitively.
 
return &$foo
:-P
 
42 mins ago, by rdlowrey
@NikiC Should you find the generator return patch straightforward, consider this my advance offer to also write up an RFC for yield from should it be possible to implement it sanely/quickly for 7.0 ;)
@NikiC ^
 
6:08 PM
@bwoebi yeah, let me finish this patch first :D
 
user895378
lol
 
You're already working on it?
 
then we can see how hard that would be. I'd go for the yield* syntax btw. reserved keywords and stuff
@bwoebi working on what?
 
@NikiC on the return thing
 
user895378
The thing I love about @bwoebi is ... his capacity for patience has actually improved tremendously from what it once was.
 
user895378
6:09 PM
(as far as I can tell)
 
@bwoebi Yeah, it's already done. I just haven't tested it yet. So I'm still at that moment where I can pretend that it actually works :D
 
uh, so fast? :o
 
@rdlowrey My capacity for patience has continuously decreased :/
 
user895378
php can have that effect, I think.
 
No, @rdlowrey has this effect.
He's bringing updates so slowly… I can't do anything but be patient :x
 
user895378
6:11 PM
Yes, if you have to wait on me to finish things ... well you end up doing a lot of waiting.
 
hehe ;-)
 
@rdlowrey Quality takes time :)
 
user895378
It totally does.
 
user895378
You can't rush art ;)
 
user895378
 
user895378
6:20 PM
You rush a miracle man you get rotten miracles
 
Heh, writing tests always takes so much longer than implementing stuff ...
 
@rdlowrey yes, I do not even plan to be able to include a working session middleware. ^^
 
@NikiC because you have to fix all those bugs the tests uncover
 
@ircmaxell bugs? I don't make bugs :P
 
/me forgot, the wunderkid makes features that only a mere mortal could call a bug :-P
:-P
 
6:24 PM
@NikiC Just some extra features :P
 
@kelunik Exactly!
Extra features ... like segfaults :)
 
user image
10
 
@NikiC Marketing would prefer it if you would call it dynamic halting.
 
@kelunik give things time… he has time until php 7.0 release :-P
 
/me hates translation English resources to Georgian
 
6:53 PM
@Danack I don't think we should do that; it may have conflicts with the under-discussion RFC for "static halting".
 
Nah it's fine. Static halting is when your code won't run at all...
 
@ircmaxell :)
 
7:26 PM
I'll never use "by design" again
 
PHP is an imperfect language by design =)
 
@rdlowrey @bwoebi Here we go: github.com/php/php-src/pull/1096
 
@NikiC we expose the generator This when var_dump()'ing it. Could we expose it's return value too (from the moment on where it exists)?
 
@bwoebi We do? I don't remember generators implementing debug info
 
...
...
No we don't well… Closures do, but gens don't. Sorry.
My bad.
@NikiC github.com/php/php-src/pull/1096/… what type of Exception is that? A basic Exception? I'd maybe use RuntimeException for this?
 
7:41 PM
Yes, it's a basic Exception (same that is thrown for rewind())
RuntimeException requires SPL dependence
 
s/by design/intentionally
 
Or throwing RuntimeException when SPL is available and Exception otherwise, which is very ugly imho
 
oh, well… true… core shouldn't depend on anything but ext/standard…
 
just make SPL required
 
@NikiC agree.
 
7:42 PM
actually right now I'm not sure, isn't spl required?
 
It is
 
I've just seen this pattern of throwing different exceptions based on spl, so assumed
 
it's not been always required
few years
 
It is… since 5.3?
 
Okay, in that case that leaves us with the question ... why should this be a RuntimeException?
Shouldn't it be a LogicException? :P
Whoever implemented SPL exceptions was definitely trolling us ;)
 
7:44 PM
hehe
IIRC it was Marcus
 
:-D
@NikiC and before you relax about your great work now ( thanks! ) … what about yield *?
(btw. I'd throw an EngineException if that RFC already were voted on…)
 
@bwoebi I wouldn't ... because it looks like they will be outside the hierarchy
 
@NikiC honestly, I think those exceptions should be brought into ext/standard
 
@ircmaxell I think reasonable exceptions should be brought into Zend/ ;)
but not the SPL exceptions
 
7:56 PM
@NikiC You think? :s
 
@bwoebi I think I'll make it a voting option
 
so, we always need two catch blocks for our catch all handlers? (or update them for the superclass??)
 
Oh, re: typed exceptions in engine exceptions. I think things like invalid types (passing stdclass to bar hint) should be a dedicated exception
 
@bwoebi or catch BaseException (if php 7 only code)
@ircmaxell write it to the list ^^
including a nice name, what it inherits and why this particular exception type should be split off
 
@NikiC what will you put to vote? subclass to Exception or subclass to BaseException?
 
7:59 PM
@bwoebi it will be a separate vote, whether it should be a subclass of that or that
@bwoebi I'll take a look
 
yeah, I meant, what the voting options are…
 
@bwoebi yes
 
@NikiC does the RFC have a list of errors it targets?
 
@ircmaxell nope
@ircmaxell List of errors can be found by scrolling through github.com/php/php-src/pull/1095, which seems to be the current patch ^^
 
ah cool, will do after I send the apology mail to Zeev
sent
news.php.net/php.internals/83235 <-- that should hopefully do it
3
 
8:11 PM
it's nice when we're all grown up
 
now, what's the next piece of drama I need to start slinging mud at?
 
and when there's cake ... I prefer cake actually ...
@ircmaxell I see you're settling into internals in the normal way :D
 
:-P
 
@JoeWatkins looks like the zero cost assert RFC already passed easily :D
15:0
 
no reason not to pass it
 
8:19 PM
yeah… but too many people vote for the wrong option…
 
@marcio maybe, apparently >85 people haven't voted though ...
 
=D
 
:) let the mass vote for the next scalar type hints RFC, maybe the record will be beaten
@NikiC Hey, speaking about "no reasons not to pass" something we only need 8 votes to pass group use declarations... still one week to end the voting 30:19
@bwoebi still no dice on putting your yes vote back?
 
wrong RFC
 
@JoeWatkins They'll all come around on the last day and vote NO ;)
 
8:26 PM
@marcio well… it anyway doesn't have a chance to pass I think.
 
yay, hopefully that hatchet is burried
 
@bwoebi well, it can get closer, just a neutral twit from @Sara made a huge diff few days ago. Thanks Sara.
Grouped namespace use expressions. Read it, vote on it: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/group_use_declarations
 
@marcio done
 
@bwoebi I am quite pleased the way wiki.php.net/rfc/date.timezone_warning_removal is going :)
 
@ircmaxell and look in the middle of the replies:
@mitchellvanw @SaraMG Sometimes I think that Sara and Andrea Faulds are the best things to happen to PHP.
 
8:30 PM
@NikiC Me too… but Really surprised by Andreas vote.
 
@bwoebi Thanks for doing the RFC :) We were all continuously bitching about it and you actually fixed it :)
 
@NikiC I'm really surprised at that
 
@ircmaxell hmm, why?
 
Just from the discussion prior to vote didn't seem to have that many supporters, yet alone sitting at > 2/3
 
@marcio The angel on my shoulder wants me to be neutral, The devil turns me into a salesman.
4
 
8:36 PM
@ircmaxell The discussion mainly were the few loud voices
 
i.e. Derick and Stas
 
Kinda sad that grouped use won't pass, but I'm not passionate enough about that to push it.
 
@bwoebi yes
 
Re datetime_warning, my inclination is to vote "No", but I'm going to abstain instead.
 
ummm, group_use's URL is really bad
 
user895378
8:38 PM
@NikiC nice, will build and play with it in a bit.
 
user895378
53 mins ago, by bwoebi
@NikiC and before you relax about your great work now ( thanks! ) … what about yield *?
 
user895378
^ @NikiC should I start working on an RFC for that or hold off for now?
 
@rdlowrey Well, you can draft the RFC now, then that's done at least :-)
 
@ircmaxell I'm bad to baptize RFCs, this might come with practice. Thanks for the vote :D
 
it's all good :-)
 
8:44 PM
Guys, apparently there is yet another scalar RFC "on the table"… can anyone point me at the right table?
 
Zeev's table.
 
@Narf Ze'ev's table ;)
 
@NikiC LOL, right :D
 
@rdlowrey Not sure ... it's a bit tricky to implement
 
8:49 PM
@tereško yeah, really bad
 
@ircmaxell I'd vote "yes" to that!
 
user895378
@NikiC I understand ... if you think you can make it work just let me know and I'll write up an RFC. If not, I still <3 you for doing the generator return patch. Thanks!
 
@salathe /me starts making the necessary arrangements...
 
@ircmaxell lately I have begun mentally keeping a "stupid company" list
 
@salathe with hookers... and declares
 
8:51 PM
it already contained "Samsung" (for the smart-tv thing)
 
@marcio declare(blackjack=1, hookers=1); ???
6
 
@NikiC that deserves an RFC
 
@salathe But in all seriousness, it's weak hints with a bit more lossless rules being the "compromise" with strict supporters.
 
@NikiC dat looks nicer than expected
 
@Narf Did you find the table?
 
8:54 PM
@salathe The table found me ;)
 
@Narf Ah, the table found you? Like this? ノ┬─┬ノ ︵ ( \o°o)\
@ircmaxell After how much you emphasized that you aren't trolling in reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/2wgqkm/… I started seriously wondering if maybe you're trolling?
 
@NikiC Maybe, not sure ... I never liked ASCII art and that's even less expressive :>
 
user895378
In Soviet Russia, table flips you.
 
^ Not surprised there is an ASCII art representation for that already.
 
@NikiC I really wasn't trolling. I know some languages are spec-first, but considering Hack doesn't appear to be being built that way, I think it's an honest question
 

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