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7:01 PM
these decisions aren't questionable, at all ... I like the idea of a unified protocol, I like the idea of what stas is saying, but not surrendering phpdbg to the madness ... we are going to do what is necessary to make a good debugger ...
 
Also, Joe. We really, really need to put some docs to php.net about phpdbg
 
someone said they were doing that ... I think @FlorianMargaine
we should yeah ...
will
 
Now? I have time.
 
well it's not a "now" thing, we need to discuss format, and then actually work out how to do it in docbook xml, I'm not even sure what it will look like and the function/class thing doesn't make sense for us ...
we can discuss what it should look like now ?
or maybe it does, maybe we could use the function thing for commands ?
no actually we can't ...
 
@JoeWatkins Nope you can't ;)
 
7:06 PM
what do we do, should we try to generate something from help command, parse it from sourcecode and dump in docbook, write something new ...
I was hoping a docbook genius would pitch in here, I hate docbook ... I'm extremely bad at it ...
 
I think everybody is :(
 
there's talk of a markdown parser, but because there's talk of it, it'll probably never happen ...
because talk is enough to make people feel like they are getting shit done ...
 
@JoeWatkins :P In all honesty markdown would never work I think
It is way too limited for the purpose
 
I think a parser actually exists in some form ...
md is extensible, I guess it's extended ...
not really sure ... I just prefer text to xml ... I prefer being eaten by lions to xml ...
 
Pro tip: forget about docbook for now and start trying to write in a gits or something
That gives you the chance to see what might work later in docbook
At least that is what I would do
 
7:10 PM
well we have a bunch of documentation, built into the binary ...
@bwoebi ... input ... go ...
 
@JoeWatkins That's clear which format I think:
phpdbg page generally, a bit blabla about debugger, then an overview:
- Invoking the debugger & running a script
- ev command
- Setting breakpoints & continuation commands (c/s/F/L)
- frame / back / info
That's a guide how to use the basic functionality of phpdbg then
 
so looks like we are writing it manually then, not reusing help pages somehow ?
that's a shame, it'd be nice for the help that is bundled to be as good as the help online, the easy way to achieve that is to use the same content ...
 
We'll reuse help pages, but in a separate section.
That what I just wrote was a guide how to use it. Each command naturally will have its own page then, too.
 
okay, I'll create a repo for some markdown we can work on, because quicker than working in xml, if you wanna lay out the repo how you want it, and make a start, and I'll write a script to extract and possibly format the help pages to something we can reuse ...
then I'll join in with the writing of overview and what not ...
 
Shall I create the repo now?
 
7:14 PM
yeah you can do if you want
 
created. I'll quickly create a first overview. Then we can work on the separate files.
 
k
the prompt is prompt>
 
yep
 
Hi there. Any Twig experts abound?
 
github.com/bwoebi/phpdbg-docs/blob/master/overview.md let's go… what do you want to write about? @JoeWatkins
 
7:38 PM
I'm just doing the extractor thing first
 
@bwoebi Is there a phpdbg group on GitHub?
 
@SecondRikudo no. Just collab on repos
 
You guys might want to create one and transfer ownership for both repos to that org
Makes things a bit more organized./
 
I'd rather write code ... you are right, but enough of politics today ... gonna write code ...
 
Especially if there's a team working on it (and IIRC there is, isn't there?)
 
7:39 PM
Actually, not sure how the things will remain.
@SecondRikudo me and him currently
 
ha, easiest way to extract help pages from one process ... is ??
:)
 
@JoeWatkins screen?
 
I meant specifically phpdbg help pages ...
 
@JoeWatkins just extract from phpdbg_help.c?
 
I haven't had the pleasure of using phpdbg, so can't really help you there :P
 
7:41 PM
I wasn't really asking ...
 
My sarcasm detectors don't work at weekends.
 
@bwoebi yeah but but ... hard ... we want to output xml right ? so ...
 
@JoeWatkins Why would you want to output XML?? :|
 
docbook :(
 
@JoeWatkins Ugly
 
7:43 PM
@JoeWatkins yep…
 
you guys write C code... how hard is learning basic docbook?!
 
gonna start a server and have the help pages served ... easier to control over tcp ...
docbook is effort ...
 
Just use HTML/Markdown and be done with it.
 
C has like 4 functions ...
docbook has 10^22 ...
 
XD
docbook sucks.
 
7:44 PM
and we only use 4 :P
 
@salathe Loving the avatar
 
:)
 
I think it's time I switched to my festive one as well
 
@JoeWatkins not sure if that helps ^
 
7:45 PM
it mentions markdown ...
but really though, our help pages are pretty strange
 
pandoc won't generate docbook anything like how we use it in the manual
 
<help msg="
Below are the command line options supported by phpdbg

**Command Line Options and Flags**
  **Option**  **Example Argument**    **Description**
  **-c**      **-c**/my/php.ini       Set php.ini file to load
  **-d**      **-d**memory_limit=4G   Set a php.ini directive
  **-n**                          Disable default php.ini
  **-q**                          Suppress welcome banner
  **-v**                          Enable oplog output
  **-s**                          Enable stepping
so ... some parsing needs to be done, I'd rather do it once, we want to be able to run this whenever there are changes and update docbook stuff automatically ... without relying on much else ...
 
@JoeWatkins I take it, at the most basic, you really just want a page in the manual duplicating what the help says?
 
@JoeWatkins yeh I know this one
 
@salathe yeah to form part of documentation, we are gonna write some stuff too separately
 
7:47 PM
@JoeWatkins only this is needed to generate some HTML out of this
 
yeah but we want docbook tables and what not ... /me pinches regex tho ...
 
@JoeWatkins Looks pretty good as it is
 
then .split('\n').map(function(line) { var el = document.createElement('div'); el.innerHTML = line; return el; });
 
dude ... is that javascript ...
I'm allergic ...
 
@FlorianMargaine Eh? Div per line?
Why?
 
7:49 PM
sure looks like jabbascript :P
@SecondRikudo what do you prefer? <br>?
 
@FlorianMargaine This is either a list, or a table
And I'm more inclined to go with a table, actually.
 
uh?
Below are the command line options supported by phpdbg

**Command Line Options and Flags**
  **Option**  **Example Argument**    **Description**
this is a table?
 
We're talking about the block of markdown he posted above?
 
it is
 
@FlorianMargaine yes
 
7:50 PM
@FlorianMargaine That is most certainly a table.
 
so you'd add colspan everywhere?
 
With <tr><th>Option</th><th>Example Argument</th><th>Description</th></tr>
@FlorianMargaine What? Why?
Empty cells?
 
  **--**      **--** arg1 arg2        Use to delimit phpdbg arguments and php $argv; append any $argv argument after it

**Remote Console Mode**

This mode is enabled by specifying the **-a** option.  Phpdbg will bind only to the loopback interface by default, and this can only be overridden by explicitly setting the remote console bind address using the **-a** option. If **-a** is specied without an argument, then phpdbg will bind to all available interfaces.  You should be aware of the security implications of doing this, so measures should be taken to secure this service if bound to a pu
 
<td>&nbsp</td>
@FlorianMargaine That's not longer a table...
 
yes. That's the entire output I'm talking about
 
7:51 PM
@FlorianMargaine It doesn't have to be fully automatic...
 
Hi there. Are there any Twig experts available?
 
Converting the whole thing to HTML ssemi-manually with text replacement tools shouldn't take more than 20 minutes.
to proper HTML
 
oh yes, sure
 
sorry I'm off topic, go on without me :)
 
7:53 PM
@FlorianMargaine My sarcasm detectors are off for the weekend
Was that 'oh yes, sure' I agree with you? Or 'oh yes, sure' lol no
 
it wasn't sarcasm
 
it would be easier to take docbook and convert that to markdown / the help strings *ducks for cover*
 
@salathe No, it would be easier to compile it into bytecode and then extract the text out with a language written in assembly.
 
Apologies. Are there any Twig experts available for maybe an hour to go over with me how to create search filters (checkboxes) for DB search? I can't find a tutorial for beginners on this, despite having searched for a couple hours now. Can this be done with Twig syntax, or do I need to create the checkboxes in raw HTML and write the AJAX from scratch? Thank you in advance.
 
I don't see how a template engine can help you in doing ajax calls tbh
 
7:55 PM
@SecondRikudo maybe for you... *shrug*
 
@FlorianMargaine what you say makes sense, but maybe I unclear on what is meant by 'form rendering.' Does that term just mean the actual creation of the form on the front end?
 
form rendering usually means going from a php object to an html form... usually. I'm not sure in which context you heard that
 
Symfony documentation
I couldn't find anything about checkboxes on the Twig documentation.
 
yeah form rendering should handle the output of the checkboxes' html
 
I thought as much. Thank you for clarifying.
 
8:06 PM
@salathe /me throws something heavy
 
@JoeWatkins @bwoebi jsfiddle.net/6u04uvau
You're welcome
Apply any CSS you want, and presto. Insta documentation
Printable, downloadable, whateverable.
 
@SecondRikudo But not docbookable :P
 
@PeeHaa Who the fuck cares about docbook
 
The PHP group
 
8:18 PM
docbook should burn in hell and you all know it :P
 
@DaveRandom But especially @salathe!
 
I'm currently in the "like it" camp. I flip back and forth a lot though.
 
@DaveRandom I find it a hard time to like anything that has to do with XML
 
Something with strong semantics is easy to convert to something with weak semantics, but you can't do it the other way around.
 
I don't care about it, I mostly just find amusing all the XML-hate.
 
8:20 PM
:)
 
@DaveRandom Enforcing proper HTML in the docs is plenty easy.
 
I do like the idea of a semi-wysiwyg or something though, maybe a way to convert markdown to a primitive docbook structure with can then be edited to be sane
 
Proper HTML is just as strict as XML.
 
And at least for the PHP docs, it's not like you can't just copy/paste the XML structure from another page. :P
 
@salathe You mean there is another way of doing it? :P
 
8:21 PM
@SecondRikudo Yeh but parsing it to another format is a huge pita from HTML
 
@DaveRandom What? No
You use the exact same DOM implementation you would use with XML
 
@PeeHaa *whispers* No, all I do is copy/paste and change the text. :)
 
Properly written HTML is practically XML with better support...
You'd use DOM and XPath just as you would with XML
 
Properly written HTML is XML... *poke*
 
@salathe Yes, but with an expontentially larger community...
 
8:23 PM
Yes, but say i want to find all the function parameters. In docbook this is trivial because I can just look for <parameter>s, but from HTML it would either be a huge pita to look for certain structural combinations, or we'd end up using a bunch of class names of something, in which case we didn't gain anything because it's just as hard to learn and maintain
 
@DaveRandom micro data
 
@SecondRikudo A community who doesn't know what they're doing… like PHP :)
 
@DaveRandom JQUERY!
 
@salathe Perfect match!
 
=] yay
 
8:23 PM
@DaveRandom Because you can do that with the current tools you have at the moment?
 
@PeeHaa jSilence!
@SecondRikudo yes
 
@FlorianMargaine why aren't you generating docbook ...
 
Yey festive avatar is online :)
 
@JoeWatkins ?
 
@tereško I've followed it for some time but then dropped it...
 
8:25 PM
that badly needs some love, but a tool like the general concept of that one would be a lot harder to do with HTML instead of docbook
 
we can't use html ... gotta use docbook format ...
 
@DaveRandom How does docbook keep this data?
 
PHP's own docbook format (I think)
 
Does it have a file it keeps updating, or a database it keeps behind the scenes?
@DaveRandom Again, microdata
 
@HamZa yeah, it's kinda "not enough"
 
8:26 PM
I'm not saying doesn't have many, many problems, but since we already have a huge toolchain for rendering it into various formats and it is unquestionably stronger semantically than anything anyone has proposed, I simply do not see the point in changing it
Also, HTML brings another set of presentational problems that we don't have at the moment
 
btw, @HamZa , you can also try mangafox.me/manga/feng_shen_ji
 
@DaveRandom Like what?
@DaveRandom Oh, I'm not holding my breath for it to change.
 
@tereško I will save it in a file for later
 
Ever since PHP"7" I stopped viewing the internals process as productive.
I don't know if my bias is justified, it's probably not, but that's just how I see it at the moment.
 
Because we render the docbook to HTML, the stuff it produces is uniform. It would be very difficult to validate that people hadn't missed a class name off something or used some other weirdness that meant it broke the display, because we no longer have absolute control over the generated output. And that's not even mentioning how difficult it would be to prevent XSS/CSRF-type things being embedded into the code by someone.
TL;DR publishing HTML written directly by users is known to be a terrible idea...
 
8:30 PM
@DaveRandom Linting tools are not very hard to come by or make
 
@HamZa it's kinda similar to "Samurai Deeper Kyo"
.. I assume you have read that one
 
@DaveRandom Also, that's why you have the karma system, don't you?
It's simply a matter of passing each save via a static lint making sure all required stuff are there and in the right order.
 
@tereško nope...
 
Which is practically what XML does by default.
 
well .. then that's your problem
 
8:31 PM
@SecondRikudo Yeh but that way puts the onus on us. We have to look for every single conceivable bit of badness that some random person might introduce, be it presentational or security. When we have absolute control over the generated HTML markup, none of that stuff can even happen in the first place
Validating an XML document against a schema is a shit load easier and more robust for this specific task
(although as I say, I flick back and forth on whether I like specifically docbook quite a lot)
gdi
 
Even if you want to generate HTML instead of allowing my users to write it, I'd probably use some sort of document based database over XML.
Mongo, Couch, Cassandra, etc.
 
That is not a ridiculous suggestion, but we simply don't have the resources for that
 
@DaveRandom Now? Of coursee not
Accurately converting every XML file to a proper document object? Good luck with that.
Rewriting the whole thing from scratch is arguably easier...
 
@SecondRikudo One of the benefits of the strong semantics of docbook is that more or less anything should be doable programmatically, including that
 
But in my eyes, it means that the barrier of entry to contributing to the PHP documentation is unneededly high.
 
8:37 PM
@JoeWatkins everything's coming nicely with docs?
 
I personally think that the inability to accept github PRs is a much bigger one
Feb 11 '13 at 16:29, by Gordon
random trivia: php -r "echo levenshtein('shemales', 'schemaless');" gives 2
 
Using an XML system from the 90s
@DaveRandom Most definitely.
 
I wrote a bit in repo and am doing the script thing ...
 
@DaveRandom Feel free to PR against my en mirror
 
it'll happen ...
 
8:38 PM
@SecondRikudo So what? People still use HTTP, and ssh...
 
@DaveRandom dammit, why had I now looked the word shemale up in the dictionary :-/
 
@DaveRandom Most people who code in PHP do not use XML
 
@salathe I just commit stuff myself :-P
 
They use JSON, HTML, etc.
 
@DaveRandom Feel free to get people to PR against my en mirror :P
 
8:39 PM
:-D
 
@SecondRikudo L. O. L. (pauses for emphasis)
 
I have been pushing people at work to document stuff but no-one wants to do it for some weird reason
 
@salathe I did write in present tense, right?
@DaveRandom I love documenting
 
There's one guy in particular that I really want to write some Yaf docs because he knows a whole bunch of shit that's not in the manual
 
@JoeWatkins I had last hour a nice conversation with Stas… seems he's willing to give us a bit feedback etc. :-)
 
8:40 PM
@SecondRikudo Looks like you did... I'm still LOL-ing
 
But documenting has to be super easy, or no one would want to do it.
 
I think Laruence wrote a lot of it himself as well so there is some... interesting English in there
(not that I can criticise for that at all)
 
No-one wants to write documentation, even when it's super-freaking-easy.
 
if we thought there was any chance of that before today, we'd already be doing it ...
 
@JoeWatkins mailed you the conversation with Stas, nothing really important, just to keep you updated :-)
@JoeWatkins what script exactly are you writing? md => docbook conversation?
 
8:43 PM
help page to docbook hopefully
 
btw I seem to remember @cspray was looking at doing some md->docbook stuffz a while back, not sure if it ever got past the stage of the "wouldn't if be cool if..." conversation we had about it though
 
johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc … don't we need that?
then you just could convert help page to md ans the converter then does it for you.
 
but *** is not valid markdown is it ?
 
59 mins ago, by salathe
pandoc won't generate docbook anything like how we use it in the manual
 
and that
 
8:45 PM
@bwoebi wow
That seems like a nice concept that almost certainly won't work
@JoeWatkins I thought it was?
Maybe not, but it works everywhere I ever use markdown (read: SE and github :-P)
 
I dunno ?
as a table ?
 
> @krakjoe Many thanks (again), you have two issues resolved in a very short time frame. Is it the brand of 'coffee' or the breeze of the 'mountain air' ;-)
hehe
 
Oh no, like this
@PeeHaa lol
 
where's that ?
 
8:49 PM
Even I've never been able to consume coffee while driving, the man is a hardcore mountain air nut
 
@salathe fuuu… what's the difference?
 
@DaveRandom we're talking about pot, right ?
 
@bwoebi I can't remember, it was erm... a long time ago...
 
@SecondRikudo true… html is usually not valid xml…
@salathe you may quickly try it?
 
@bwoebi Properly written HTML is always valid XML, aside from unquoted attributes and self-closing tags.
Neither pose a problem to a proper DOM parser though
 
8:52 PM
@JoeWatkins I see nothing... nothing! :-P
 
@SecondRikudo aside from… yea.
 
NSA is watching, remember
 
I love the idea that the 90 something year old that is the only person able to spy on us works for the NSA ...
oh wait, you mean little men in the computer ... now who likes mountain air ...
 
(</sarcasm>)
I'm not that crazy
 
unbelievable.
 
@JoeWatkins that @DaveRandom is not that crazy.
 
don't you believe it
 
It's true, I sleep in a metal box to keep out the alien mind control signals
 
I have a special hat for that ... a box will never work ...
 
9:02 PM
I have hairs on my head. I know, they're enough as I never was mind-controlled!
 
I have a very weird problem here...
If I manually put in an integer in a SQL query, it runs the query as expected, but if I don't and instead do oci_bind_by_name, then it returns an empty result set.
 
@bwoebi ah but @DaveRandom has a full head of hair ...
maybe hair + box >= hat ... but box < hat
 
Eih, b2code^^
 
@bwoebi Maybe your mind was manipulated so that you think that, but...
 
@DaveRandom then yours is too ;-)
 
9:06 PM
Which is a semi-interesting philosophical point, but also a stupid one.
 
or do you really think that aliens you choose frequencies absorbed by other materials for their mind-controlling signals?
 
@bwoebi Maybe they're really dumb aliens
 
It's kind of a shame that we will probably never actually encounter intelligent alien life, even though it probably exists somewhere right now
 
I dunno about probable
 
9:09 PM
@DaveRandom then they'd probably too dumb to even invent mind-controlling signals at all^^
 
life is probable
 
Although in the grand scheme of things we're probably quite early in the period of the universe during which it can support life, so it's also possible that we're the first
 
there are better ways of making a living than talking about it, there are at least 3 million examples of this on our own planet ...
that's what you really mean by intelligent ... that we talk about stuff ...
 
@DaveRandom as someone who has seen a UFO (and way too close for my liking), I think you might be wrong.
 
@JoeWatkins how's your script coming?
 
9:11 PM
elephants are intelligent, have comparable life spans, have a kind tradition and community ... but aren't intelligent, apparently ...
@bwoebi we are talking about aliens and elephants ...
 
@JoeWatkins well that is a similarly interesting (and less stupid) philosophical point
 
@JoeWatkins some people have made good case for "humans are no the only sentient species, that has evolved on this planet". Whales, dolphins, dogs, bonobos, elephants, chimpanzees and (according to some) crows can be considered sentient.
 
Why we never achieve anything: we talk half of our life about doing and the other half we sleep…
 
we achieve more than most @bwoebi, chill ;)
 
9:14 PM
If you achieve a lot or not is a very subjective point…
 
It's Saturday. Pretty good chance most of the people here are currently at least slightly intoxicated, and many who aren't currently here aren't here because they are transitioning toward intoxicated
 
so, just do more, then we can be sure that we have at least achieved something.
 
I think chatting bollocks is allowed...
 
@DaveRandom I bet I and Joe aren't… and no idea who too…
 
@tereško yeah that's what I mean, the only thing we really mean when we say "intelligent life" is life that talks, life capable of the kind of organized complexity required to get something to another star system ...
there are so many ways of making a living without talking about it that we're allowed to suppose life of that complexity is exceedingly rare ...
we haven't got something to another star system even, there is one probe, receiving more light from another star than from the sun ...
 
9:17 PM
@JoeWatkins bonobos can learn to talk in sign language and teach their offspring is too
 
@JoeWatkins all we've got is outside the heilosphere (Voyager 1)
 
@bwoebi I'll take that bet
 
they don't do it in nature, and they don't talk in sign language in the real sense, it's not "may I have a glass of water please" it's "water me, me water, water now" ...
 
@JoeWatkins "language", just like "utilization of fire" could be one of the primary requirements for a development of "technology"
 
On a surprisingly on-topic note, anyone got any recommendations for a good pgsql admin tool? web or desktop, not bothered
 
9:21 PM
definitely required I'd say
/me is dinner
 
if it were mysql, I'd just say /usr/bin/mysql…
 
but there have been several publication that the "sounds", that some of the above mentioned species use, contain a lot more meaning then before thought
 
@JoeWatkins I'm dining with MBP on the chair next to me :-)
 
@bwoebi While I'm generally inclined to agree, sometimes you want GUI tools for stuff
 
@JoeWatkins ... well, what would make a highly developed, space-faring species, which has "water" as the living environment?
 
9:22 PM
@DaveRandom Just for creating and altering tables. For everything else… no.
 
or how about actually prospect of "life" not being restricted to carbon-based organisms to begin with ?
 
Also for testing very complex queries and exploring the result set and verifying that it is actually want you want
Doing that in a terminal is making life needlessly hard for yourself
 
@JoeWatkins , galaxy is quite bit, and humans are still bound to a single, insignificant star system
our "understanding" is definitely lacking .. if for no other reason then limits of what we currently can reach
 
@DaveRandom Isn't it enough to just scroll through the whole result set? not sure why you'd limit it…
 
Having something that doesn't scroll horizontally can be a big limitation, for one thing
 
9:25 PM
@DaveRandom What's wrong with pgadmin?
 
It's slow/resource hungry and doesn't weird shit in the query editor, and has some pretty unintuitive elements in some parts of the GUI
 
then just pipe the output in a file…
 
...so I can open in a GUI application and explore it. If you are going to do that, why would you resist a GUI application that was designed for the actual job you are doing?
 
@DaveRandom you also could open it in nano or vi or less...
 
@PeeHaa it's ugly
 
9:30 PM
People get carried away with stuff like this IMO, similarly while I usually use git from the command line, PHP Storm has some GUI tools that make certain things a shitload easier (e.g. the three-way merge thing). It's not lazy, it's just making a difficult thing easier, without losing any of the functionality of the underlying tool, which is what is usually the argument people put up to this.
Open your mind - GUIs are not always a bad thing
 
@DaveRandom You didn't get I was joking?
 
Apparently not...
 
hehe
you're intoxicated too much already it seems ;-D
 
@PeeHaa Yeh I saw that, was just wondering if someone had a "use this, it's awesome" kind of recommendation. Guess I'll have to try some out
 
9:33 PM
@DaveRandom Nope. Sorry that I failed you :P
 
Not good enough, I penalise you one beer
/me smokes
 
:)
 
9:45 PM
can markdown do tables ?
we might be better off just writing in docbook @bwoebi ...
 
@JoeWatkins it can
at least github md
 
previewing it is a shit, I've never once got it to look on my computer the way it does on docs.php.net
 
yeah
@JoeWatkins github md supports html tables directly too.
 
does docbook ?
 
I'd suggest you to use them, will play nicely with converter then
yes
 
9:50 PM
oh okies
 
I'm doing breakpoints / continuation commands now
 
what the freaking heck
 
@teresko I agree about CakePHP butCodeIgniter is one of the two worst frameworks? CodeIgniter is the most lightweight, simple to install, great documentation and one of the best PHP frameworks. — CodeCrack 14 mins ago
... not sure if trolling or delusional
 
hehe
 
10:10 PM
I made a start on building and invoking @bwoebi
I'll do some more tomorrow, gotta sleep ...
 
great, see you tomorrow :-)
 
nn && nn all :)
 
nite @JoeWatkins
 
10:33 PM
@CodeCrack CodeIgniter is pure horse crap. If you compare all of the crappy PHP frameworks to a garbage bag, CodeIgniter is the liquid that's dripping from the bottom. — Madara Uchiha 11 secs ago
 
10:55 PM
@JoeWatkins I'd consider to not dump too much output from help command. Rather redirect to a page which contains this via a link. The current files really are a guid and shouldn't overload the reader with information.
 

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