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user895378
6:00 PM
^^ At 6,000 requests per second, that full-blown HTTP/1.1 static file, dynamic PHP and websocket server (all in one) makes your PHP framework cry tears of sadness.
 
That's dope.
 
@rdlowrey WHOA
 
@rdlowrey Where can I get one ...
 
user895378
Of course, you wouldn't encrypt port 80, but I just threw in the encrypt() call to demonstrate how easy TLS encryption should be :)
 
@rdlowrey that is ugly. Your AppDefinition is effectively the builder
 
6:03 PM
@rdlowrey I always wanted to push OcraHopHop a bit, but damn... everything MUST be stateless :(
 
user895378
@Gordon Not really. It doesn't "do" anything. It just provides a uniform method to specify configuration values which the builder just asks for in an array format.
 
user895378
It's not a framework, it's a server.
 
@rdlowrey so what is your AppBuilder building?
 
user895378
@Gordon Everything. Consider:
 
user895378
$staticApp = (new AppDefinition)
    ->bind(80, '*', 'static.mysite.com')
    ->addDocumentRoot('/path/to/static/files');

$dynamicApp = (new AppDefinition)
    ->bind(80, '*', 'mysite.com')
    ->addDynamicRoute('GET', '/', 'MyApp::hello');

(new AppBuilder)
    ->addAppDefinition($staticApp)
    ->addAppDefinition($dynamicApp)
    ->run();
 
user895378
6:06 PM
There's no apache. No nginx. That's your server. Serving two host names.
 
So they are both Builders
 
user895378
Basically.
 
user895378
Of course, quibbling over nomenclature is like being upset that you won the lottery and they paid you in $1 bills instead of $1,000 dollar bills. It's a totally inconsequential thing.
 
AppBuilder == AppServer
 
@rdlowrey Hmm, it's a bit unintuitive at first but the more I look at it, the less I think it's a problem
 
user895378
6:08 PM
Worst case scenario is it needs to be renamed.
 
@rdlowrey no, that's important. Naming is one of the hardest problems in software development.
 
@rdlowrey Make it rain!
 
user895378
@Gordon I get that, but that's why it's not released yet :)
 
user895378
AppBuilder -> AppServerBuilder ... problem solved.
 
I guess it boils down to that the AppBuilder is not really building something but is just holding the various app definitions and runs them, while the AppDefinition is pretty much building the app
 
user895378
6:10 PM
@Gordon Well that's not true at all. It's building a lot of things.
 
@rdlowrey Under the hood. But then it's a Factory to me.
 
It's building unicorns.
 
Builder to me is an object that allows building of another object through an API, like a QueryBuilder
 
@rdlowrey how does it run php .... cgi?
 
builders are factories that can make on one thing
 
6:12 PM
@Orangepill Command line, amigo.
 
user895378
@Orangepill CLI. The end. $ php myserver.php
 
@tereško they can make many things if need. it's an interactive factory so to say
 
@Orangepill you write a rails app for that
@Gordon well .. out of it comes "one thing"
 
@tereško yes, the assembled object graph
 
@rdlowrey I meant how does it serve php
 
6:13 PM
i assume it mostly serves html, css and sometimes a bit of JS
also lots and lots of vardumps
 
user895378
@Orangepill It's not a PHP web SAPI, if that's what you mean. You write dynamic applications like this:
 
user895378
function myFunction($asgiEnv) {
    $body = '<html><body><h1>myFunction</h1></body></html>';

    return [200, 'OK', $headers = [], $body];
}
 
user895378
@tereško I would appreciate it if you wouldn't comment on things you know nothing about.
 
 
user895378
@Orangepill And you can return strings, stream resources or Iterator instances (generators!) for streaming entity bodies.
 
6:16 PM
@rdlowrey without having seen the rest of the API I'd probably call the AppBuilder AppServer since the only thing it seems to do is collect the apps and run them. And the AppDefinition either stays AppDefinition (since it's not that important to know that it's using a Builder pattern) or AppDefinitionBuilder depending on what it does under the hood.
 
here is one thing that i do know: returning that kind of array is a terrible idea
 
user895378
@tereško Without context that's an idiotic statement.
 
you are asking someone to learn order of 4 (plus?) nameless elements in an array in correct order
 
user895378
@tereško 4 exactly. Every time. It's called a protocol. And you can not use it and keep getting awful performance and no websockets and fight with stupid lighttpd setups. So I say again:
 
user895378
3 mins ago, by rdlowrey
@tereško I would appreciate it if you wouldn't comment on things you know nothing about.
 
6:18 PM
come back when your hussy-fit has ended
 
user895378
Python does this. Perl does this. PHP, instead, bastardizes HTTP with untestable supergloblals which you're then converting into objects because you don't like arrays. The only way to get performance is to provide the raw array (just like your dumb PHP SAPI does). It's up to application developers then to abstract something if they don't like it.
 
user895378
Google Python WSGI or Perl PSGI. Compare the simplicity (and eminent intelligence) of a single testable array input to the idiocy of what PHP web SAPIs do.
 
user895378
That's why your array statement makes no sense. It has no context.
 
@rdlowrey I understand it's a web server ... would it be possible to replace apache with it (assuming no apache specific functionality is used) and run an existing php application.
 
user895378
@Orangepill That's kind of the point. It's better in every conceivable way than a PHP web SAPI.
 
6:23 PM
@rdlowrey is that the Aerys thing you mentioned recently btw?
 
user895378
@Gordon Yeah -- the example code I posted above is nothing more than a "framework wrapper" around the server so you can created dynamically routed applications + serve static files + websocket endpoints without knowing anything about how it actually happens under the hood.
 
@rdlowrey well, except for the nitpicks on the names it sure does look sexy. do you have an ETA when you will release it?
 
user895378
Essentially it's just using PHP as a programming language for a full-blown HTTP and websocket stack instead of using the web SAPI behind a web server.
 
@rdlowrey but the php would run out of process correct.... so a runtime error wouldn't bring down the whole server.
 
user895378
@Orangepill Yes, but if you're actually running it in production you had better install pthreads so that's not a problem.
 
6:26 PM
It's been fun to involved in a lot of the feedback and decision making stages of the whole stack.
 
user895378
@Gordon I'm a lot closer now than I have been. Any dates I threw out would be purely speculative, though.
 
I haven't contributed as much code as I would like, but it's been fun anyway.
And I got to write the URL router, which was an interesting problem.
 
@igorw meh. why would you implement bf with a vm?
 
user895378
@Gordon that said, give me a few days and I'll give you repo access and you can take a look at it. I'm just hesitant to make it public just because there's still so much constant change.
 
@NikiC you mean why not compile it?
 
6:28 PM
@rdlowrey looking forward to it. anything that makes me not need to learn fancypants serverside JS is good
 
@igorw yes
compiling is simpler and faster
 
user895378
(and I just wanted to say, "constant change")
 
@rdlowrey And as we've seen recently with The League of Extraordinary Packages, getting public attention before you are ready for it is a big downer.
 
user895378
pfffft
 
@NikiC might give it a shot. :)
 
6:34 PM
hi
 
@LeviMorrison So I take it the routing supports all of the http request methods
 
@Orangepill All and none. When you define your routes you say what you support. The only one we automatically support is HEAD when you've defined a GET.
 
guys, quick Q. Since @jimbo forgot or ... confirm my thoughts, then I will ask again. Do flash messages need to work with $_SESSION array for storing messages or it can be any different storage mechanism?
 
because flash does not use same session cookie wait .. what !?
 
@LeviMorrison one couldn't hope for me... do you get 404's out of the box on a route failure or do you handle that yourself?
 
6:41 PM
@tereško what?
 
@Eugene Think of Sessions as a database that automatically fetches some data on each request. All it does is SELECT * from Storage where SID = 123 on each request. That should answer your question
 
Fuck Ruby is hard; but only because of my brace trigger-finger.
 
@Gordon so for example I can use redis for storing or even database itself(except those calls will be too pricey)
 
user895378
@Orangepill of course. And you can easily, for example, capture all 404 responses before they're sent to the client and alter them in any way you like.
 
@Eugene yes
 
6:43 PM
@rdlowrey beautiful... I can't wait to play...
 
@Orangepill It also deals with 405 Method Not Allowed in a similar fashion.
 
@Gordon great. Thank you. I assume, that sessions are more common than anything else and therefore are used most often.
 
@Eugene tbh Sessions suck. At least that's my opinion
 
@Gordon why?
 
@Orangepill Reminds me, did you guys see the fuckup node.js has with HTTP methods?
 
6:46 PM
@Gordon do you have alternatives .. or is this just the accumulated resentment
 
@NikiC Yeah, rdlowrey showed that to me.
 
@tereško accumulated resentment
 
Where they overoptimized their parsing code to the point of acceptiong PUN as PUT etc ^^
 
@NikiC what is that?
 
@NikiC And honestly, it might not be that much faster. It's definitely an overoptimization.
 
6:48 PM
@NikiC they just looking at enough to differentiate it from POST?
 
@Orangepill yes
 
@NikiC That would mean it would also accept POOP
 
To be fair, though:
> The methods GET and HEAD MUST be supported by all general-purpose servers. All other methods are OPTIONAL; however, if the above methods are implemented, they MUST be implemented with the same semantics as those specified in section 9.
 
Any server that accepts POOP is not one I want to work with :)
 
Took me a bit to find it. Don't reference that section much >.<
 
6:55 PM
@Eugene it's mainly a resentment of the default Sessions that use disk i/o tbh
 
@Orangepill Aerys will accept it if you teach it to. Just accepting POOP as POST is really poor, though, and that's what the joyent parser is doing.
2
 
Revision .... If a server can't tell the difference between a POOP and a POST then I don't want to use it.
does the name Aerys have any meaning or did it just sound cool?
 
@Gordon redis.io is a good option in that case.
 
@Orangepill It starts with the letter 'A' which seems to be @rdlowrey's main requirement for naming a project.
 
user895378
7:13 PM
@Danack pretty much.
 
user895378
(1) Pick a name that starts with "A"
(2) Make sure it's difficult to pronounce
(3) Profit!
 
@rdlowrey Easy, take a pokemon name that starts with "A" :)
 
(4) Make sure it's hard to spell even from the correct pronunciation?
 
@rdlowrey Aerodactyl
 
user895378
Winner!
 
7:17 PM
@Danack thx for the mail btw :)
 
np
@HamZa most of it should make sense - obviously ask away for the wtf bits.
 
yup
 
Hey guys.. I need a quick pointer regarding deploying php mysql system to a staging server using git (i read a little about the post receive hook)... So anything? Thanks.
 
jo bitchesx
 
7:30 PM
Are basic debugging skills not taught any more? stackoverflow.com/q/18343399/212940
 
@vascowhite Nope. They don't always teach how to use a debugger to CompSci students at university - because why would they need that?
 
@Danack I've never needed a debugger, my code is always perfect first time. However, I occasionally have cause to help others debug theirs :)
 
yes yes, obviously the only time I use a debugger is to find compiler errors.
 
7:34 PM
@PeeHaa argh, I missed that Q now ....
 
@HamZa Meh it's just our regular python troll. Not a fuck was given
 
@PeeHaa hahahahha
 
> So this is the last Groklaw article.
 
2
Q: How do you deal with legitimate questions from a troll?

BlenderWhat do you do about legitimate questions from the Python Newbie guy (for those who don't know)? Should I flag them as spam and downvote them, or should I leave them alone?

 
7:38 PM
@PeeHaa sigh
 
@tereško wtf
 
Legitimate questions are legitimate. — Robert Harvey yesterday
 
@LeviMorrison That's not comparable with this IMHO.
 
CLAP CLAP
 
@ComFreek syntax [tag:cv-pls] ....
 
@HamZa Yeah, just looked up the FAQ ;)
 
@Ocramius so we can troll for days and then everybody needs to really care about the next legitimate question?
^^ ;)
 
8:16 PM
@hakre looks like that
 
Hmm... new business card?
 
It's not angry enough.
 
@hakre how should the ascii representation look like when unicode support is enabled in hexdump? Currently it is: nBytes Hex | nCharacters Ascii
 
i was asking... i mean thinking... in the xor operation of encryption
lets say we have the message as 111 and key as 010 then xor would be 1001 but what if the space is only 3 bits... then where would the xtra bit of 1 at (msb) go? how would someone recover that piece of information
 
@blackbee The result is not 1001, it's 101, see here: miniwebtool.com/bitwise-calculator/…
 
@hek2mgl hmm, well for the hex-listing on the left - probably only possible in HTML output - each code-point sequence should have it's own border over the bytes and if you hover that, you can see the codepoint name and a link to the unicode reference page :)
@Ocramius you could put the original doom logo on the back of the card, just centered on black.
 
@hakre hehehe
I'm already putting this mario here on the website
too bad I can't use it for anything official :(
 
well I've got a great graphics designer / artist friend he probably can create you your own mascot.
 
8:34 PM
nah, I got family members to spoil
one of them studied 8 years of art and design for THIS VERY TASK.
:D
 
Internals people: would __toScalar be an implementation nightmare, given that it cast the result to the most appropriate type based on expression context?
such that, 7 + $object would be 7 + ((int) $object->__toScalar())
 
Evening
 
and that, 7.0 + $object would be 7.0 + ((float) $object->__toScalar())
 
well, i mean if such a situation arise then what happens
i mean there is a carry out
 
@Bracketworks What would 'foo' + $obj do?
 
8:41 PM
@PeeHaa I'm thinking 'foo' + $obj->__toString(), which'll yield int(0)
 
@hakre I thought about such higlight things... would be nice for protocol analysis too
 
We keep __toString.
 
@Bracketworks I would expect (int)$obj->__toScaler(); based on the +
 
Anyone able to point me in some direction on e-mail piping printing 0a0a? (stackoverflow.com/questions/18344561/…)
 
@Orangepill Well, that's an option, but I'm leaning towards operand based, rather than operator..
 
8:43 PM
@Bracketworks That would be strange
imho
#typing #fail
 
@PeeHaa but isn't that what "hello"+"world" does
 
o sorry, that was me being foolish... i just found we cannot have an o/p of more than 3 digits for 2to 3 digits input in xor
 
@hakre Let's see what I can do... Currently it's mostly designed having performance and being bullet proof in mind.. Maybe I could inherit from it (@igorw :)) .. Will think about this
 
Well, 'foo' + 'bar' yields int(0); following that, $a = 'bar'; 'foo' + $a; yields int(0) too. If __toString returns 'bar' I don't see how that'd be any different?
 
@Orangepill Yes. But not what "hello" + $obj does
In a sane way
I.e. without throwing up
 
8:46 PM
Bah shit; PHP uses operators to determine types; not operands.
 
:P
 
FFS PHP.
 
I know you better than to still be surprised :)
 
I would prefer (anytype) $obj to map to __toAnytype ....
PHP ... feel free to barf if I don't implement the __toAnytype function...
 
8:49 PM
@PeeHaa I'm going to buy ffsphp.org (if you beat me to it, please do similarly) so I can take phpsadness.com to a whole new level.
 
hehehehehe
 
Everytime I have an idea, someone says "NOPE", opens up the side panel and points to where mice have chewed through everything, and bubblegum was used to patch it.
 
ok.. so wat is this discussion going about, i wud like to know
 
that way (string)$obj would still map to __toString... (array)$obj would map to __toArray() and (MyCustomClass)$obj would map to __toMyCustomClass...
 
@Orangepill Yea, but (MyCustomClass) won't work easily (IIRC) because tokenization doesn't work as expected. (int) itself is a symbol, not "(" type-name ")"
 
8:54 PM
@BracketWorks well they should fix that :)
 
@Orangepill ...said everybody about everything
;-)
 
@hek2mgl well I'd say it's good to have a bullet-proof, low-level version with text-represnetation, US-ASCII safe, rock solid.
 
orange pill .. why do u have a name like that??
 
And then maybe some fancy over-lay information.
 
@blackbee black bee, why do you also have a name that fits the pattern [color] [object]?
 
8:57 PM
@blackbee because about 20 years ago that was the first name that I could come up with that didn't have a number after it on a free AOL trial registration.
 
lol
 
:D
 
@hakre Yes this highlighting stuff sounds nice and useful. will let you know if I have something. until that you'll need to use plain old ascii, sorry ... :)
 
hek2mgl sounds like an obscure linux command
 
9:00 PM
@Orangepill hi :) what? (but it's not so far (chuckle) ) :D
 
@hek2mgl I would use it if I had a hek file that I needed to convert to mgl....
 
@Orangepill hihi :)
Have thought about opening once a bounty on the question : What means 'hek2mgl'... But until this it will keep a secret ;)
 
@hek2mgl You username is amazing for finding sites that are stealing SO content: google.co.uk/search?q=hek2mgl
3
 
@Danack I'm not got this.. what do you mean? :) ( I've done nothing bad)
 
go to page 2->10 of the results. Every link that isn't stackoverflow has your name standing out.
 
9:06 PM
hek is a halo map format ... and mgl is a game file from "Age of Kings"
 
@hek2mgl Your username is unique! That's actually a good thing.
 
@Danack now think I got it.. can I do something?.. srry.. this is totally new for me
 
Because your name is 'very' unique the google results for it show lots of sites, that are stealing content from Stackoverflow, as your username only legitimately shows up on SO.
It's not you that's done something wrong - it's just a really easy word to search for, to find content that originated on stackoverflow, that has been taken and re-used on other sites.
 
9:09 PM
I may need to change my handle.... I guess there is a "performance enhancing" drug on the market now that is referred to as the little orange pill ...
 
@hek2mgl no worries, just learned about your library so just my 2cents. it's not a real feature request either, so just do as you see fit.
 
@Orangepill what's wrong with that? :)
 
:)
 
@hek2mgl Whereas my username leads to results about that asshole 'Dan Aykroyd', and mentalists.
 
There's a PHP enhancing drug? Sign me up!
 
9:11 PM
@Danack Ok, understood.. Puhh ;P
 
It's the new viagra...
 
@Danack chuckle
 
viagrant
 
viagrant improves problem development by a lot
 
And it is a lot better then Viagra ME
 
9:15 PM
@hakre Ok, then I'll continue doing this stuff (advertisment :) : github.com/metashock/Jm_Os_Inotify ... This code is not looking sooo nice at the moment, but it's at least alpha and useful.. But creating this library left some question open I would really like to discuss with you or the guys here in chat.. but I won't go on somebody's nerves
 
'Consult a doctor if your VM instance stays up for longer than 2 hours?'
 
@hakre inotify rocks!
 
If he's running ME, it wouldn't stay up for 2 seconds.
 
@hakre the best thing at the end would be to have a portable directory watching library in PHP that would support Linux and Windows.
(I don't care so much about windows, but it would be nice to have something for PHP)
 
lets not go into what you could do when running viagrant with puppet
 
9:18 PM
Here is some nightmare fuel
 
@Gordon I've today lost in an interview because I had no experience with puppet.. Couldn't it be learned in a few of days(weeks) ?
 
oh f* you markdown
 
@Gordon This guy just stopped talking to me because of this.. Still angry because of this
 
9:22 PM
@hek2mgl puppet has a stiff learning curve and I think it's highly unintuitive and crap and the current hype in the php community is somewhat annoying. it's exactly this kind of cargo culting tool obsession that's been annoying me more and more lately
 
@Eraser35 I granted a month of Turbo for trolling you.
 
@hek2mgl advertise hint: Use the readme to say more than just "in development" :)
 
@webarto basically, the support stuff was drunk again .. and then someone from PR dep. walked by
 
@Gordon And why they are using it? Alternatives on Debain could be FAI
@hakre understood ;) will elaborate this
 
9:26 PM
@hek2mgl there is plenty of tools. chef, salt stack and ansible to name a few. but wikipedia has a huge list of configuration management tools.
 
@tereško hah, good thinking sir.
 
@hek2mgl why. well I guess some people said: look, this is the shiznit. and then some others parroted that and now it's the alleged shiznit and you are unprofessional and doing it wrong™ if you dare to think different or not use it.
its elitism and fanboism
 
Thanks to @Eraser35 for being a real sport after some trolling on our part. Free month of Turbo 4 you, good sir. How about some #FF love!
You are right.
 
9:30 PM
someone lost his job there =/
 
@hakre That is a legal question. Your close reason is wrong...
 
or got a pink slip today and said wth, I'm doing this
 
@Gordon thanks :)
 
@hakre if one can ask about cake and codeignitor etc, one can ask about woocommerce if the question is asked correctly
 
Perhaps something like that would be more appropriate for wordpress.se
But, I get your point about the close reason
 
9:34 PM
I promise to kick the next person who spells it codeignitor
 
@cspray maybe but with 710 Q's asked idk...
@Gordon sooo I can't spell.... kick me...
 
@tereško Yeah seems so :).. Still having a look to that 'future-js' :) spec from time to time, but cannot say much at the moment.. Currently I tend to say ActionScript3 was more elaborated
 
@Eraser35 Also consider uninstalling Yahoo toolbar and then reconsider every step in your life that has led to installing Yahoo toolbar.
 
@webarto hah! that's great
 
This can be applied to Codeigniter too.
 
9:36 PM
@Neal for the record, I agree that the question should not be closed
 
@Gordon Well it should be closed. The user did not show much....
@webarto JavaScript?
 
@Neal that probably. but not for asking about that particular framework
 
@Gordon Yea. Correct. I agree.
 
@hek2mgl perfections is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing else to take away
just because something is more elaborate does not make it somehow good
 
@tereško you plagiarized that from Saint-Exupéry
 
9:47 PM
You can aspire to get to that point.
 
actually i would describe it as "bastardized"
i remember vaguely the quote, didn't remember the source and was too lazy to google
anyway, I think I'm safe
 
to add or to take away
 
@tereško While I would confirm to what you said ( I like that speking ) I have to think about it when it comes to javascript and as3.. I really liked that there are real classes in as3 as well that is was possible to enforce variable types.. getters and setters and language integrated xml queries where nice as well (this work was all done by macromedia)
 
copyright laws cover only stuff that was written approximately after 1914th
 
therefore google can scan entire libraries
 
9:49 PM
@tereško it's from Terre des Hommes (1939)
 
oh ... damn
 
> Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher. - en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry
 
you can't compete with this gordon character
 
in that case, I might actually be sued for it
 
he beats us with experience
 
9:50 PM
though i might be mistaken about the year
 
@webarto with google-fu :)
 
What is the best way to remove an instance of an object from an array.... I've been using array_diff.
 
Saint-Exupéry has lots of nice quotes. I have one on a post-it tucked to my screen
 
ie. $list = array_diff($list, array($objectToRemove));
 
there is known known, there is known unknown, and there is unknown unknown, google that!
 
9:51 PM
@Orangepill unset() ?
 
oh wait .. i'm safe
 
f ... everything is on google...
 
@webarto that sounds like systems theory and cynefin
 
books are currently copyrighted for 70 years
so the magic year is 1943
 
9:52 PM
"Mein Kampf" was released earlier ...
 
{insert rant about copyright laws in USA}
 
(chuckle) (believe me I never read it, it's boring I assume)
 
@Gordon is two pages older than Bible.
 
@hek2mgl but what would be the easiest way to find the instance.
I imaging array_search would work.
 
@webarto which version?
 
9:54 PM
"There are known knowns" are the best known words of a statement to the press made by Donald Rumsfeld while serving as United States Secretary of Defense in February 2002. Usage The above statement was made by Rumsfeld on February 12, 2002 at a press briefing where he addressed the absence of evidence linking the government of Iraq with the supply of weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups. It was criticised as an abuse of language by, among others, the Plain English Campaign. As for the substance of his statement, Rumsfeld's defenders have included Canadian columnist Mark Ste...
 
@Neal well, if they show some code? and explain the programming problem they face? Why not?
 
@Gordon that phrase actually made quite a lot sense
 
@Gordon @tereško I can't figure where I've heard it, help me.
 
user895378
@Danack omg wait, is that real?
 
9:55 PM
@Orangepill What about array_walk() ?
 
@rdlowrey Yes, we're living in the Bizarre universe.
 
@tereško it does because it's not Rumsfeld's idea but based on military theory. Check the Wikipedia article. There is a reference to Prussian General Clausewitz. Clausewitz said that war is full of uncertainty and unknows and fog of war.
 
Donald has to eat too
 
Broke 100 rep. How you like me now -_- oh yeah!
Gives me a good buffer to keep the chat privileges.
 
@Gordon Of course.
 
9:57 PM
do you need us to fix that oversight ?
 
@hek2mgl I guess array filter would also suffice... this is obviously a very skinnable cat.
 
@tereško Is he asking us to downvote him?
 
dunno .. I'm checking
 
:(
 
9:58 PM
@Orangepill yes. array_walk() was just an idea. I would measure performance
 
@webarto and here is why I linked it to System Theory and Cynefin: cognitive-edge.com/blog/entry/6055/of-knowing-and-the-unknown
 

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