« first day (877 days earlier)      last day (4293 days later) » 

23:00
@dyelawn it really doesn't matter what you call them. symfony doesn't fully follow semver, because it does remove deprecated features after a few releases. but it does try to keep BC for minor releases.
...and how much of the world have we taken over so far?
We're gonna take over the world!
bit late...
Baby steps my friend... baby steps
isn't PHP already the most used web language?
@igorw cool, thanks. very helpful responses.
23:02
@dyelawn I think it's a bad idea, it doesn't give you enough legroom and does not allow for bundles that support multiple versions of symfony.
@igorw maybe major version number, at least?
@dyelawn what if your bundles breaks BC?
my reasoning is more selfish than rational, it confuses the crap out of me when people's bundles for symfony 2.x.x are 1.x.x
most bundles are dev-master anyway... :-'(
yes, makes it quite difficult for someone trying to learn vcs practices within symfony development
but to respond to your BC point: why would your bundle break BC without a major upgrade to symfony?
or, you could meet in the middle of our two proposed approaches and have all versions intended for symfony 2.x.x follow 2.x.x, but go from 2.1.x to 2.2.x when you do something that's going to break BC.
23:07
@kaᵠ likely not. I bet that the lines of Javascript code per day are many more than PHP code.
@dyelawn I can give you a very simple reason why this could happen. bundles usually integrate some third-party library. if the the third-party library releases a new version and you want to update your bundle to support that new version, you may have to break BC.
@hakre considering that JS is usually minified, the LOC claim may not hold.
@igorw if everyone was following the protocol of my awesome proposal, that wouldn't happen, bc they wouldn't be allowed to break BC within the realm of 2.x.x
which means you are now constrained and forced to deliver outdated dependencies to your users. doesn't sound like a win to me.
If anyone has any CVs to burn up, there's a load of questions in the closing room that only need one more vote
(probably 30 questions with 4 CVs)
how do you get CVs?
23:12
@dyelawn You need 3000 rep
guess i don't need to worry about it then
@DaveRandom where? I'm assuming not here?

The closing room

Currently on: CLOSE ALL THE TYPO QUESTIONS
@igorw how often do you update dependencies on fosuserbundle?
@dyelawn You'll get there eventually, 443 rep is respectable for 31 answers/8 questions
23:14
@DaveRandom please don't check my timeline
Although I like 443 rep, I'd be tempted to stay there. Your rep is secure.
(@all: if that made you laugh you have problems)
@DaveRandom it made me smile a little, I'm in trouble
@hakre JS sux ! at least client-side
@DaveRandom just started offering hosting to clients. i got the joke!
@kaᵠ I will hunt you down and I will hurt you.
:-P
23:16
@DaveRandom LOL
Oh.. wait...
@DaveRandom :)) really now, i see bad websites everyday that chug almost any non-ultra-new pc because of the bad code written by any 'developer'. if that would be the case for php the server would crash and the company would eventually hire better programmers, in the js case... not so much
and... i really love JS as opposed to flash, because i hate flash most!
bullshit
really @tereško ?
@tereško good to see you! pleasant as always
23:20
:)
@igorw can react work on port 80 on nginx, etc. not quite familiar with that...
btw: node.js is javascript server-side?
@tereško long time no see :D
if you love javascript so much , how is it that you do not know what node.js is
... again .. i'm calling bullshit
@kaᵠ just because a lot of people are terrible at writing JS does not make JS terrible. Although I do accept that there is a lot of JS floating around that makes me want to throw up. But JS is not to blame, just look at what you can do it if you vaguely know what you are doing (StackExchange is quite JS heavy, for example, and while I dislike FB in general, as a technical achievement it is an incredible piece of engineering)
23:22
@webarto react binds to its own port. but you can tunnel to that custom port from nginx.
7 mins ago, by ka ᵠ
@hakre JS sux ! at least client-side
i think the problem with javascript is how easy it is to see what you're doing
@igorw cool, awesome :+1:
@igorw hmm, or probably even ;)
@kaᵠ , please stop embarrassing yourself , it is painful to watch
23:24
@igorw Is that a recent addition? I saw the WS press release a couple of weeks ago but it seemed to be all talk and no punch, couldn't find any tech details
ohh yea... Facebook bad, SE good
@dyelawn do you really blame me for that ?
@tereško not in the slightest, most remote sense, and i struggle to find an interpretation of my comment that would give that impression
if i knew where you lived, i'd buy you an ice cream cone
@tereško i didn't care about node.js, and still don't atm, my rant is about the shitty js in the world
it's -15°C outside ...
23:26
@kaᵠ I'm sorry, but how is Facebook bad Javascript? SE is terrible compared to FB, it's almost entirely jQ based. It's not awful, but compared to FB it's like sitting at some traffic lights in a Lada looking at the guy in the Bugatti Veyron pull up next to you
@DaveRandom I was just referring to general HTTP proxying, but WebSocket is supported in the latest version of the 1.3 branch as well.
see also nginx.org
@tereško woops. coffee then
@igorw Ahh right I thought you meant you could pass raw socket connections through. Now that would make me sit up and take notice.
@DaveRandom jQ goes hand-in-hand with what i'm trying to say about the problem with "seeing" your javascript work. it provides instant gratification for myopic coders
@DaveRandom really... facebook is FULL!!! of js, SE might have lower quality js as you say but at least has a decent amount of it and does wonders for the user experience
23:28
@DaveRandom you can actually do that with the nginx_tcp_proxy_module
and if you look at my question/answer history, there's a ton of jQuery in it. so it's not that i'm against the library
gmail is "full of javascript" too .. strange how nobody is ranting about that
@dyelawn I'm going to tread carefully here, it would be very easy for me to slide back into my jQ rant, and there's no point, I've said all I have to say, but to sum up: jQuery is a good thing. It maximises compatibility and it allows you to develop very quickly. But if you use jQuery without learning Javascript first and then ask dumb questions because of this, I will hunt you down and kill you in your sleep. Also it is disasterously inefficient for many things.
ha... @dyelawn money VS. javascript ???
but when you can type a couple of really "verbal" lines of code, refresh whatever browser you're using, and see sh*t start sliding and toggling, and modal windows flying out of nowhere, you kind of forget everything else
@kaᵠ no, money vs. money
@DaveRandom you have an interesting definition of "tread carefully," unless you were referring to the part where you sneak up on me and kill me in my sleep
23:32
lol
@dyelawn You got off light, often that rant takes 100 messages+
@tereško gmail is great too! as stackexchange is and there are many other great examples, maybe because they understand the limit to too much javascript
@tereško pretty sure that the google api environment is going to deprecate all server-side support within five years. and i think it's a good thing
gmail is written in java that gets compiled to javascript
open up 10-20-50 "cool" websites but with crappy js allover an you'll see my point
23:34
There is not too much Javascript. There is just poorly written Javascript. Oh, also there is IE, in which case I guess there is such a thing as too much Javascript.
:))
@DaveRandom i think i may have misstated my point though. i think jQuery is too easy; i think we're agreeing with each other.
it is extremely hard to write fast javascript with jquery , the "easy" part is downloading crappy plugins
yea @DaveRandom too much||too crappy or both
@dyelawn Oh no I got that, I'm not going to kill you in your sleep
I'll let you be awake
:-P
23:36
=)... oh :(
Right I'm out of this conversation before I get sucked in again
overall JS an jQ are great tools (in good hands)
toodlez
jquery is NOT a great too, it is not even decent
shit
23:37
@tereško out of curiosity, what are some things you find great?
i guess @DaveRandom left now :))))))))))
sliced bread?
@dyelawn well brewed stout, blue cheese, sleeping till 14:00 ..
fair enough
@igorw ...aaand it's useless again:
> Note, You can't use the same listening port with HTTP modules.
23:38
sliced bread sucks , it gets stale faster and you cannot tell how fresh it is to begin with
get a slicer tereško
i think we may be having a case of an idiom lost in translation here
@tereško So you're saying that unsliced bread is the best thing since sliced bread?
23:39
@kaᵠ most people call those "knives"
most of them, and then there are those who just push a button and get a perfect slice every time :D
@DaveRandom well, how would you expect that to work? you can't serve HTTP and proxy TCP on the same port.
@DaveRandom still warm white bread with extremely unhealthy amount of real butter and some brie ... it makes me think it's almost weekend morning
@tereško my jQuery library calls it .slicer({ serrated: true, reallySerrated: "no", kindaSerrated: "ehh, getting closer", soLikeSeventyPercentSerrated: "yeah, yeah, exactly", soBreadKnifeThen: "yes, please pass the bread knife" })
your library call also creates an instance of large , globally scoped god-object, which is the main flaw of jquery
23:44
@igorw Why not? That's exactly what websockets do. Obviously you can't just do anything, the application layer communication has to be client initiated and it has begin with a recognisable magic number of some sort, but there is no reason whatsoever why it can't work. You could even have the communication server-initiated if you implement a timeout and the guest protocol is tolerant of the delay (for ex. FTP).
@tereško // holds up sarcasm sign
It's websockets I'm really interested in though, I'm aware that there aren't currently any other practical use cases
@tereško why are globals evil? i mean why do people say they are evil? are there any real security concerns?
yes @dyelawn
it's 2AM , and i cannot decide whether to work , or get my ass kicked at work tomorrow
@kaᵠ it has nothing to do with security
so @kaᵠ did spark an interesting question for me, though. is node "client side" or "server side"? i mean, it functions like a server, but is it really "server side"?
23:47
@tereško feel a bit disapointed if they are called evil if security isn't an issue
@dyelawn Yes. It is a server, from an application point of view. If that's what you are using it as. People do seem to get a little carried away with the idea that it's just for server applications though, it's also quite use for writing other daemons.
58
Q: Why is Global State so Evil?

Madara UchihaBefore we start this, let me say I'm well aware of the concepts of Abstraction and Dependency Injection. I don't need my eyes opened here. Well, most of us say, (too) many times without really understanding, "Don't use global variables", or "Singletons are evil because they are global". But what...

By our own beloved @MadaraUchiha, no less
@DaveRandom that's not TCP level proxying though. it requires parsing the headers before it can do anything. I would refer to this as "HTTP tunnelling".
@kaᵠ it makes it extremely difficult to organize development, and prohibits your work from being incorporated in anyone else's. and it shows that the author engaged in precisely zero planning or research before writing his work. and it completely eliminates the possibility of unit testing and integration testing. other than that, there's no real issue
@igorw As it stands and as it was designed, that is true. But how is that not just a really complex magic number?
thanks @DaveRandom
23:49
@tereško I'd work, but I'd know I wouldn't get anything finished...
@DaveRandom but in a narrow, linguistic sense, it's still "client side", right?
fak it , i'm going to sleep and gonna try to wake up earlier tomorrow
@DaveRandom not sure I get your point.
@dyelawn i'm more in favor of using something like using globals is stupid than evil
@dyelawn Not really. If you are talking about the type of machines you run it on, the balance would be tipped more in favour of servers, I expect quite considerably (when you discount people's dev instances).
23:52
@kaᵠ this is why you are a noob
kind of a corollary to my unsupported comment about google apis deprecating php support: if any of you are using api data heavily in your projects, do you use php libraries or js libraries? i've seen a significantly lower cost on ec2 instances running an app i wrote since switching to purely js implementations.
@tereško a noob with like thrice as many points as me. how does this happen :(
@kaᵠ i don't understand that sentence
@tereško don't get so personal
@DaveRandom so "server side" versus "client side" is defined purely by the arena in which the majority of the code is running?
since when calling someone "noob" is personal ?!
@dyelawn more like what role it plays
23:54
anyway , i'm out of here
@igorw Well I'm just saying that as long as the first bit of application layer data exchanged is recognisable for identifying a specific protocol, and the HTTP server knows how to look for that initial message, there's no reason you can't do it and just hand off the client socket to a child process.
@tereško I always start of as a noob, most people do, but ^^ that is not why :))
@PeeHaa nice way to explain it. really difficult for my brain to comprehend a language that has previously been classified under "client side" and "presentational" as "server side" and "operational"
@dyelawn No, not at all. It depends what role it plays in the application. I thought that was what you were getting at when you said narrow, linguistic sense
@dyelawn Why on earth is that? Java has been used as both for years.
I'm also out of here. I need to go mental tomorrow at the job again.
laters
23:58
@DaveRandom because i started learning this stuff about two years ago, and had no science background at all before then.
@DaveRandom oh sure, I'm not saying that tunnelling is bad or impossible. I'm just saying that it's tunnelling. :)
when i said "narrow, linguistic sense," i was thinking more of dialect differences; kind of a regional, geographic interpretation instead of a pragmatic one

« first day (877 days earlier)      last day (4293 days later) »