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12:00
I am not sure what you mean by that
He means that you are a muslim.
lol
Terra is a natural extension of Lua; I think of them as of one language tbh
So, shall we soon start seeing a user called NotCatPlusPlus, I wonder
12:05
cause he left last night and undid his roomowner status
after he handed the administrator thingy of the room wiki over to me
@TonyTheLion oh, he really got up set did he?
Not sure what was happening, but there was pinned thingy asking for someone to be admin of the wiki, I volunteered, think I'm being a nice guy
but it resulted in him leaving
well, he might use a break IMHO
12:07
@TonyTheLion like more or less any bug I end up looking at
@TonyTheLion remember his (our) exams are coming in upcoming weeks
@thecoshman meh
@BartekBanachewicz ah, exams, that explains it, somewhat
@TonyTheLion well, I don't think he left because of that
@thecoshman well, it looked to me he was waiting for a volunteer so he could hand it over and then gtfo
because he didn't even leave himself on as admin
relevant?
yesterday, by thecoshman
if I could go just one month with out having to plonk the cat, I would be so happy he is no longer around
I wouldn't be too surprised if he said fuck it
12:10
not sure he cared much about you plonking him
@TonyTheLion What tipped the scales?
but I could be wrong
@WTFlookatmypoints Hullo. Would you say it's a worthy goal to provide the guarantee that any iteration will at most call e.g. front() once per item?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have no idea. Hoping one of you guys could shed some light.
I have no idea either.
12:11
@TonyTheLion more the realisation that some of us don't like his attitude
@LucDanton I think it's something worth striving for. And while I think it's possible to keep to it, I might be wrong, so I would keep it as something droppable once more implementation comes up.
but then nobody expects me to know about or understand anyone else.
so it's all the fault of everyone except me
@TonyTheLion I wasn't around. You were.
@R.MartinhoFernandes He was gone before I could say a word.
@R.MartinhoFernandes So remember when I had trouble with composite ranges that need to drop elements? E.g. filter? How would you go about that?
12:13
@DeadMG haha
@thecoshman that may have been a thing. Who knows.
@sbi I know a couple of bars near where @Martin is staying (somewhere around U Schlesisches Tor), but we can pick someplace else if he's fine with it.
@thecoshman that took some time, huh?
@R.MartinhoFernandes so @MartinJames is town then eh?
@thecoshman I told him that years ago.
I am not exaggerating much, btw.
@TonyTheLion Next week.
12:14
so is he going to be replaced by another room owner?
donno
we need to have elections :P
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Room owner election nominations are open! [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
we don't need elections, I don't think we even need another room owner, the Eurpian slot is rather well covered IMO
I think either @jalf or @sbi or @FredOverflow should be primary candidates.
If they wanted to, they wouldn't have given it up.
Ell
Ell
12:16
@sbi isn't around so much
I don't think @sbi is he often enough to warrant it
Ell
Ell
Oh yeah. And that
@TonyTheLion I am already a room owner.
Xeo
Xeo
@TonyTheLion Fred is owner
yea ape may indeed not be around enough anymore
oh and Fred is owner, blargh
Ell
Ell
12:16
And he gave it up anyway
I would go for it, but I don't see much point as I am on mostly when other owners are anyway
and jalf gave it up, but that's no reason to ask if he wants it back
maybe we need another murican
holy motherfucking shit
because I haven't seen @Mysticial around much lately
Ell
Ell
inb4 @thephd as room owner
12:17
no
it takes debug Clang like, five minutes to include the Windows headers.
and the quantity of warnings
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion What for?
@sbi room owner to replace Cat
who gave up his yesterday
12:18
ah man, and I typoed "CreateFile" instead of "CreateFileA", and now I'mma have to wait all over again
@DeadMG You should disable warnings on system headers.
that doesn't function when you include from Wide.
I should go back to work. Forget I'm supposed to work today :/
12:19
ITT Wide is slow as fuck.
:P
heheh
it's debug Clang, man.
Wide doesn't do anything in this
@DeadMG You said you were including from Wide.
er, yeah, it's called "I ask Clang to include the header"
I don't do any including myself.
@TonyTheLion they gave the ownership away, so I don't think either will want it
Doesn't make that Wide feature any faster :P
12:20
building in release mode probably will.
@DeadMG irrelevant, we will laugh at Wide's speed anyway
5
@BartekBanachewicz you can't assume that, ask them, then you will know
eh, I haven't performed any optimization at all
so go ahead
We're insulting Wide
12:21
it's slow as fuck and I don't care
ITT Wide has no optimisations.
I would make a great tabloid journalist.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually, you can ask the compiler to perform one optimization.
That's bad, right?
yes
bad robot
er, dead code elimination.
I could implement the other opts relatively easily if I actually had a need for them
12:22
ITT Wide declines implementing easy optimizations.
@TonyTheLion I thought you were getting back to work?
@BartekBanachewicz I would have gone with "'Wide has no need for optimisation', says creator"
lol
also
I think I broke the predefines
last time I included Windows header it didn't have a bunch of undefined stuff
hmm
12:26
I can use that in job interviews. "What's your biggest flaw?" "I would make a great tabloid journalist."
I also appear to have accidentally changed my function code so that all arguments are generic, even if you specified a type...
bit of a voops there
user142019
Oh no speed.
@sbi it's weird that here it's sunny and warm and in the south people are fighting floods :\
Does this explanation make sense enough? For the constructor of a front and back cache. I'd better change 'the range constructors' to 'the constructors taking a range and predicate'.
user142019
How about some amfetamine.
Xeo
Xeo
12:28
*ph
@LucDanton Do you still have the started/non-started state thing?
Starting skips all predicates failures.
Then pop_front does the same.
At the front, yes.
Empty and front are trivial then.
I don't see the issue (well, ignoring bidis for a while)
12:30
Yes. Back isn't, but I can refactor that into the cache. (I.e. lookup if the back is here in the cache, or else use the front in the cache.)
@R.MartinhoFernandes What issue?
Why did you ask me about implementing filter if there's no issue?
21 mins ago, by Luc Danton
@WTFlookatmypoints Hullo. Would you say it's a worthy goal to provide the guarantee that any iteration will at most call e.g. front() once per item?
What do you apply the filtering predicate on?
Front of the base range?
@R.MartinhoFernandes What does front return?
@LucDanton Of course you cannot keep that in many-in/one-out algorithms.
It's just not possible by design.
12:33
Eh, what about my current design? It is front-biased though.
aaargh
VS crashes if I try to put a breakpoint on overload resolution code...
I don't have a problem with front-bias, to be honest. Reverse iteration is not as common. IOW, I'd say the domain is front-biased, so it's ok for the implementation to be.
@DeadMG lol
So from the point of view of front, what happens is that elements are popped (i.e. front() + next()) into a cache, the predicate is applied on the cache element, and the final range front the element from the cache, forwarding it. For both forward and bidi traversals.
Now you might think that the cache is a unnecessary cost but hear me out (I spent some time thinking about this).
D ranges allow you to view the front several times.
@LucDanton Oh. Ignore everything I said. I missed something.
If you think about it in terms of ana, but in a language with value semantics, then either there is some copying going on, or some caching. Even both sometimes.
12:38
oh
I resolved the overloads correctly, but simply failed to cache the result correctly.
le silly me
I think that's a real loss when translating that to C++ which has move semantics. In fact I wish I could talk with someone versed in D about that because they are introducing move semantics there. So there are move versions of front and back.
Presumably those are mutating, then I wonder how they go about composite ranges that drop elements.
@LucDanton You want to email [email protected]?
@TonyTheLion I'm on vacation right now. Out of the country with very shitty internet access. So I won't be active again until at least the 11th.
So by having the dropping composite range add an ephemeral cache to their internal state, I don't think I imposed a caching cost, but I think I moved it to another place.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't have anything to show right now.
which range algorithm are you talking about, exactly?
12:40
Forget about calling front() only once.
I do manage to check my pings every few hours or so. But I can't chat from my phone.
I think it's better to force front() to always be cheap.
@DeadMG concat is primitive enough to be a good example, but it's a bit abrupt. filter is possibly simpler.
@R.MartinhoFernandes According to what criteria?
@LucDanton None. Just say it can be called more than once per element retrieved. Not gonna define cheap.
12:42
@LucDanton Ah. I think the problem is better expressed with map (assuming that it actually is what I think it is).
namely that either you repeatedly evaluate the source range and the predicate, or you cache the result.
@DeadMG No, map is simple with non-cheap front. (i.e. front() { return f(inner.front()); }
@R.MartinhoFernandes I mean for a consumer user of ranges, a writer user of ranges, an implementor of ranges?
sbi
sbi
@TonyTheLion Why did he? (Also: I gave up mine way earlier.)
@sbi Nobody seems to actually know.
sbi
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's sunny and warm there now, too.
Xeo
Xeo
12:43
Nobody knows
map is simple because it preserves lengths. All it does happens in front/back, the rest is delegated to the underlying range. Filtering needs to drop some elements.
ARgh, value semantics mess this up so much.
> My usual approach is useless here
I can provide concat/filter primitives that guarantee to call the inner front exactly as much as you call the outer front, per item. Then writing custom composite ranges is okay no?
yesterday, by Cat Plus Plus
Remember when chat was fun
Just something for anyone wondering about the cat.
sbi
sbi
Remember when @Cat was fun.
12:46
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
sbi
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd come there, but if I could pick, I'd rather have a place a bit further north, so I can be home earlier. I'll have to be up and awake enough to bully kids out the door by 6am the next morning.
@sbi Both options are fine for me. Let's see what @Martin says.
@Jeffrey was on 9gag about 2-3 months ago
is vector part of the c++ standard library? Along with push_back(), etc?
@user2442335 yes
user784668
@user2442335 yes
@user2442335 push_back is a function...
@Jeffrey catch up, that's old hat
@LucDanton Maybe :S
@Jeffrey It's awesome but pretty old.
12:49
@WTFlookatmypoints OTOH my cache solution is benefiting from the fact that we have start to adapt old ranges. If that goes, then the cache has nowhere to live. So caching is pushed to the source ranges, istream_iterator style.
Ah ok didn't know if it was something I got from this std_lib_facilities.h from the book.
@LucDanton btw, you should refresh chat as my nickname is normal again (i.e. I get no more plinks from @WTF).
Ya that worked.
I want to assume it costs way too much. Otherwise, why don't I have my shoes or car glasses sprayed with that yet?
...or my clothes...
@Jeffrey Or it may be exaggerated for promotional purposes and doesn't really work that well.
12:51
How can I post blocks of code on here? Same as asking a question?
@user2442335 FWIW en.cppreference.com/w
@user2442335 Yes. But please post offsite (gist, pastebin, pastie, whatever) if too long.
I guess 26 lines is too long, I was just curious what the heck I was doing. The program keeps crashin.
Is it cheating if I try the exercise and it doesn't work and I'm not sure why, then I go look at a website that has the code. I'm not in school, but I almost looked at my cheat sheet and felt guilty lolz.
does anyone know a generic graph/tree plotter program/thing?
12:56
damn its hard to be productive on Friday mornings
@Aboutblank like... any other morning really
@user2442335 Depends? If you are learning on your own, you call what's cheating yourself.
@user2442335 its only cheating if you say it is.
@melak47 Graphviz comes to mind.
@user2442335 depends on the problem. If you "cheat" on exercise algorithm implementation, it's kinda fail. If you messed up library calls though, it's usually fine to confirm or even copy whole parts of the tutorial/manual code.
user784668
12:57
Did Microsoft release any C++11 support updates apart from the November CTP?
I know that some people will have a harder time learning if they get to see solutions all the time.
@LucDanton thanks I'll take a look at that ..I need to visualize a pretty large tree, and I don't really have the time or motivation to make something myself ._.
I know some others will have trouble if they don't get to see solutions.
Find out what works for you.
@Fanael No.
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes fucktards
The website didn't have it anyways haha. I just feel like I post too many questions on here as it is. Is there a limit to asking?
13:00
@user2442335 There's some daily limit IIRC, and if you post many bad questions you can get asking privileges revoked.
Ah I think I've asked one a day and I've gotten rep from every post, so I assume thats good.
@melak47 Google exposes GraphViz over one of their APIs example
aRwhgeh
still doesn't werk :D
Fuck chat. Copy paste yourself :( https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?cht=gv&chl=graph{C_0--H_0[type%3Ds]%3BC_0--H_1[type%3Ds]%3BC_0--H_2[type%3Ds]%3BC_0--C_1[type%3Ds]%3BC_1--H_3[type%3Ds]%3BC_1--H_4[type%3Ds]%3BC_1--H_5[type%3Ds]}
@R.MartinhoFernandes so pretty
@user2442335 feel free to post as many good questions as you might wish to
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol you broke chat -> }
I think I'll use the software directly though...the tree is rather large :S
> They understand that C++ 11 support it important. They hear the feedback. They weren’t able to get in in VS 2012 (and I think we all regret it) but that’s that. So, they released a CTP a few months after VS 2012 shipped to give people a preview. There was conversation of putting it into a Visual Studio 2012 Update, however, the feeling was that, given the nature and magnitude of the changes and type of testing cycle an Update affords, the probability of serious regressions was too high.
> So the decision was made to roll those capabilities into VS 2013 instead.
hmhm VS2013
can we expect it to be less shitty?
Ell
Ell
13:13
yes
My biggest question is: is it a paid release or is it like VS2003 aka 7.1.
I don't care I guess
I will get free preview, then I'll get my dreamspark licence and intel will buy one here
Xeo
Xeo
It'd be nice if they had using-aliases added too by then.
@BartekBanachewicz I care. If it's a paid release that means less C++11 adoption.
Well good C++11 support is going to be a good thing. I might consider leaving this as one of intended build targets
@R.MartinhoFernandes a lot of people (including universities, which is important) get it for free, so...
I was able to make some colleagues use C++11 just because VS2010 had some limited support
auto is great
decltype(auto) is going to be even better
13:20
When using cin in a while loop how can I make sure they only enter 2 ints? Without it being overly complicated. I just learned about vectors and loops this chapter heh.
@BartekBanachewicz So what. Those get it for free either way. And if you are thinking that people will get used to C++11 and then demand it once they get to the workplace: maybe Black Mesa. That was a joke. Haha. Fat chance. That will take time and they will still be fighting against "but it costs money" along with all the other excuses. And that's assuming they get used to C++11 in universities, lol
It's a lot easier to get it if you can say "it's a free upgrade, just click that button, reboot thrice, and make some coffee".
@R.MartinhoFernandes The problem is C++03 is... still alive.
still alive.
Xeo
Xeo
> reboot thrice
If only it wasn't true. :(
and we have C++14 right behind the corner
I am losing track of how behind the industry is.
Xeo
Xeo
13:23
Well Clang and GCC are pretty up-to-date.
isocpp.org needs more slides on "Benefits of transition"
Right. We need no more reason to slow down adoption of C++11. And money is a big obstacle.
@Xeo that's orthogonal from companies using gcc 3.8
Xeo
Xeo
Old servers out there is another one. :(
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz 3.8 never existed, the version after 3.4 was 4.0.
Xeo
Xeo
13:23
We can't use C++11 for one of our projects because of GCC 4.3 on all the servers out there
anyway if there were ready-to-grab materials, so each and every one could educate their workplace
IMHO that's something that would push it forward
similar to @Konrad's slides
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz want to see
@Xeo If you complain about the rate of adoption of free tools, what about something that costs as much as VS and (hopefully not) starts getting one of those costly updates every year?
Xeo
Xeo
IIRC Yeah, that was the url
user784668
std::fuck_ptr
13:25
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree. Windows 8's pricing model indicates Microsoft might be seeing the light about charging $10k per lic.
Okay I'm done refactoring bits into the frontback_cache. The filter implementation looks streamlined now.
well what you can't say about MS is that they don't respond to the comments.
I implemented the most important features of ogonek::text in half an hour in C#.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Did that yield a nice result?
@LucDanton Nice in what way?
I find it rather neat.
13:30
Well it was more of a 'yield' pun than anything else.
Oh gosh, I suck.
lol
Some features I can't make due to generics < templates, but the important bits are there.
C# is kinda funky
I enjoyed writing in it
but I think I still prefer Terra style
with its metaprogramming n'shit
Ell
Ell
Ogonek for c#? Or do you mean c++ code generation from c#?
13:31
And with an implicit conversion from string it operates quite neatly. Only supports UTF-16 backing though. I don't think there is much reason to do otherwise in C#. (but it provides simple recoding functionality to byte[]s)
No need for the massive image with only one word in it.
@Ell Just an experiment on the former.
@DeadMG The contents was more than the word :S
@ScottW That is irrelevant to what I just said.
The pictographic bits were part of it.
I mean, it could be smaller, but you cannot convey the same idea without an image.
all I'm saying is that it could have been just as effective at a quarter of the size.
13:33
By the way atm the core of the range stuff is the 415-line range/range.hpp, adl/range.hpp which has e.g. adl::next to do 'the right thing', and concepts/range.hpp which has the, well, range concepts. I'm kinda satisfied by that.
Let's try to define zipping!
@LucDanton I need to take some time to look at it in a non-skimming matter. I feel uneasy about things in all designs I've seen, but I need some thought to materialise them into words. Maybe Monday, while I waste hours waiting at the Registration Office.
My Dad and I stumbled across this little thing a few days ago while walking through the forest.
Oh hey, I have a bikeshed to paint. Right now I have e.g. filter_range, which is the result of filter, expose the underlying range via a public member. So if you have auto r = range::filter(/* whatever */); you can at any time pilfer back r.range to retrieve your original range. (Well try not to do that e.g. while iterating over it but you get the idea.) Now I've noticed however that this led to silly situations like BOOST_CHECK_EQUAL( r.range.range.range, original_list );.
So I've been thinking, would it make sense to name it e.g. filtered_range? Then I think chaining accessors back up the composition chain is neater: r.filtered_range.mapped_range.adapted_range or whatever.
@Mystical I love SAO :P
@Mysticial Where you at?
13:38
@R.MartinhoFernandes Costa Rica
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm well aware that you have your daytime job, so no hurry here :) Code will still be around when/if you get the time.
The Hercules beetle (Dynastes hercules) is the most famous and largest of the rhinoceros beetles. It is native to the rainforests of Central America, South America, and the Lesser Antilles. The beetle has also been observed as far north as Southern Veracruz in Mexico. Their title is well deserved, with some able to lift almost 850 times their own weight and some males, rarely, reaching 17 cm (6.75 inches) in length. It is the largest of the 6 species in the Dynastes genus, and one of the largest beetles known, being exceeded in length by only two other beetles in the family Cer...
@Mysticial Cute fellow.
@LucDanton That sounds nice.
13:41
Actually, it doesn't look quite like the Hercules beetle. The head seems a bit different.
So for the time being I'll change the naming scheme to be foo_range<...> foo(...); auto r = foo(arg, input_range); r.fooing_arg; r.fooed_range;. E.g. mapping_functor, filtered_range.
nvm, looking at other pictures, it does seem to be the Hercules beetle.
user142019
@user2442335 The beetle thinks the same of you.
And that can easily be changed via substitutions later down the line, unlike the present situation. I want to make the switch early because I don't have too many things atm.
13:43
@Mysticial wait, if he can lift 850x his weight, and the larvae weighs about 120g... I presume a big one could weigh like 200g = 0.2kg; 0.2kg * 850 = 170kg?!
@rightfo Good thing I'm so much bigger than it. I -hate- bugs ><><><
user142019
@Xeo tinyurl.com/fuck-pointers-html may be preferred.
user142019
@user2442335 All software developers hate bugs.
@BartekBanachewicz I have no idea... That thing is pretty heavy when I lifted it.
@rightfo ZING
13:44
Egads, I forgot to invoke once again lol.
@Luc Are you playing Neverwinter :P?
@Mysticial he couldt've ripped your head off :P
user142019
I like this theme more than Wombat.
user142019
Wombat was so dark.
@BartekBanachewicz It's heracross!
13:45
Heh, no.
@LucDanton I am killing is_callable and keeping only is_invocable so it works as a constant reminder.
@R.MartinhoFernandes How does that work? Do you actually run unit tests with e.g. ptm?
@BartekBanachewicz I dunno if weight(adult) > weight(larva) is a valid assumption, though.
@LucDanton No, but if I SFINAE on is_callable I get a compiler error, and if I SFINAE on is_invocable that reminds me to invoke.
Not infallible, but nice.
@R.MartinhoFernandes larva is rather soft, whilst the adults develop their external skeleton-armor
Ah, makes sense.
13:47
@AndyProwl stackoverflow.com/questions/16841813/… now was reopened
i will remove the downvote if you reopen your question
@BartekBanachewicz But hardness and weight are orthogonal, no?
(see lead)
user142019
Man.
Python is so beautiful.
@JohannesSchaub-litb Thank you, I undeleted the answer
@BartekBanachewicz Cursory googling yields 85-120g for an adult.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Speaking of unit tests, I make sure to use an instrumented range that keeps track of how many time start is called to check that my composite ranges are correct. So adl::start(some_range) does lead to an additional state, but it's testable.
Ugh I sound like a dynamic typing proponent.
13:50
Erm, why?
That's just what I'd call a mock.
howdy folks
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd like to see one of those larva. But wiki says they only live underground... :(
whoa, mock objects?
I think it's a running joke in some circles. About people going "dynamic typing gives me flexibility to quickly write prototypes while unit tests give me the confidence that the code is correct" a bit too overzealously.
also, speaking of insects, I found the second cockroach this week in my bathroom last night.
First was in the kitchen.
So, like any good programmer confronted with a bug, I squashed it, cleaned it up, and flushed it.
13:52
@BartekBanachewicz And judging from the picture on wikipedia, the larva seems longer than 17cm, so bigger.
Is there a donate option or something? How does this site make money? This has been one of the single best resources I've ever had while trying to learn. And no body is a snarky prick here either. +1 internet.
3
@user2442335 Wait, did you say nobody was a snarky prick here?
That I've run into.
13:53
No body as scoffed at my questions.
has***
They gave me relevant answers in a professional manner
Dreamincode isn't very newbie friendly ><
> SCIENTIFIC FOOTAGE
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's still around 85kg
Bleh LET ME HAVE THIS OKAY
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh lol I forgot about that picture. I could've asked that :/
13:55
@user2442335 I must have been asleep at the time -- I'm the one who's usually snarky.
haha everyone wants to be snarky now that I said I haven't ran into any snarkyness.
Whoops. concatted_range doesn't sound right, does it?
Meh, concatenated_range it is.
Isn't there more than one?
13:58
@user2442335 Er, I assure you that you can find ten billion snarks a day here.
@R.MartinhoFernandes concat_map f r == concat . map f r
@user2442335 Sorry -- I was referring to a conversation from a few days ago.
@ScottW oh I hate that...
@ScottW most def
user784668
@DeadMG more like, hyper(10000000000, 10000000000, 10000000000) snarks.
There will be appended_ranges at one point. <- Notice plural? That makes sense right, like e.g. zipped_ranges?
13:59
I don't get paid ever since I'm unemployed ><
speaking of first world problems, I have a cockroach infestation in my apartment building, and the exterminators won't come until next Thursday.
OH WAIT
THAT HAPPENS ANYWHERE

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