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user142019
00:00
Dat wordt een hevig debat!
user142019
Have her suck your dick.
Ell
Ell
Yeah
Scott's a real pimp.
Ell
Ell
Lucky you.
user142019
I know this chick who occasionally delivers me a boner when she touches me.
Ell
Ell
00:02
I only talk to unreasonable women
Until now. I'm going to ditch the unreasonabld ones
So you have food and sex. That should cover most of your basic needs.
Ell
Ell
I only talk to unreasonable women
They stopped me tslkig to all the reaasonable Ones
Unreasonable women are terrible.
You should avoid those.
user142019
Food, water, sex, fresh air, a house with warmth and electricity, a communication device and a reasonable Internet connection are primary goods.
@StackedCrooked So air and fast internet connection fall under "vital necessities", then food and sex are the next level after that? Seems reasonable, I guess.
00:07
I was assuming Internet, naturally.
user142019
Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.
Ell
Ell
Trudsy
Is wrong for me to assume you are breathing?
Ell
Ell
Fuck
user142019
Yes.
user142019
00:08
Maybe I am not breathing.
You could be an AI.
user142019
You'd be screwed.
user142019
I'm obviously not an AI. I lack intelligence.
user142019
I'm ben moe, melig en geil.
00:18
@StackedCrooked In the case of the Robot, it might be unwarranted, anyway.
@rightfold That actually seems to fit pretty well -- at least in many of the games I've played, I've though the "AI" was closer to artificial stupidity than anything approaching real intelligence.
lol, that's quite accurate
yiz
yiz
00:41
One day when I am filthy rich (which doesn't look like it's ever going to happen), I am going to build a automated transport machine. So I don't have to carry as much stuff when I hike.
yiz
yiz
I can just press a small key and the machine would figure out two geo points and fly to me with all my food, tents and anything else I need.
^ Not sure if horrible or great.
@yiz You mean a segway?
yiz
yiz
but can carry goods
and slightly more intelligent and for longer distance
00:43
Uh, personal drones quickly becoming illegal.
yiz
yiz
but it is not for spying
it is for a goal
That alibi will come in handy when it leads the cops right to you.
yiz
yiz
not some perverted goal most current drones have
yeah they should ban helicopters too
Those are drones too. What's the legal difference between a propeller in front and a propeller on top?
yiz
yiz
it is not how they are designed but their purposes
that's what I am saying all along
00:47
Laws vary by locality, but pretty sure most places are just gonna ban high-endurance, remote-controlled aircraft.
Anyway how is it going to navigate without a camera?
You don't want to fly and land on GPS alone.
yiz
yiz
how can a bat travel without good eye sights
totally dumb question
Bats have eyes, stupid. And they have sonar.
yiz
yiz
and my machine would have sensors
Which only works for short distances/low speeds, and no internal combustion engine nearby.
yiz
yiz
I am designing an automated transport machine, not a missile
00:55
why not a missile?
@StackedCrooked lack of imagination
transport drone needs defense after all
yiz
yiz
fine ... I am design a self exploding drone
once kidnapped by a bad person will explode by itself
happy now?
You could put the missiles on the drone. Fireworks just cost a few bucks. If nobody attacks you, they still come in handy. An aircraft is just about the only safe way to launch fireworks from the forest.
As long as something explodes I'm happy.
01:15
EXPLODE
user1182183
anyone knows a good alternative to egui++ ? I try to compile it on VC++11 but errors.. -.-'
Plain Windows API.
user1182183
mainly `error C2668: 'std::basic_string<_Elem,_Traits,_Alloc>::basic_string' : ambiguous call to overloaded function` , and, some weird struct: `struct default_ {
template<class type> operator type() const { return type(); }
};`
user1182183
windows api is C and horrible, Qt needs shitloads of stuff to ship with the application, like, app is 5 kb and then you need 20 MB of GUI DLL's. and egui just fits my needs but doesn't compile -.-'
01:18
xulwin? (no warrantee :P)
user1182183
will try ;d
@GamErix Well that struct is also horrible. It looks like it was coded against an older version of MSVC with something missing from overload resolution.
It's an old project of mine. It works for basic stuff.
user1182183
oh .. please no external layout files, :F
user1182183
I want just everything in the C++ code ;d
01:20
Lightbulb moment: preprocessor macros to turn ASCII art into form layouts!
user1182183
@Potatoswatter tired of .nfo viewers?
Qt is good. Even for 5kb apps.
user1182183
oh c'mon who the hell wants to download 20 MB of QT dll's just to run a 5 kb app?
What is this, the 90s?
user1182183
@GManNickG I live in the '80
user1182183
01:22
but my compiler surpasses that.
@GamErix Good, then there are no DLLs. Problem solved.
user1182183
struct default_ {
    template<class type> operator type() const { return type(); }
};
user1182183
I srsly don't understand..
user1182183
this...
It can convert to any default constructible and copyable type
01:23
@GamErix It's a fake class which uselessly pretends to be anything.
int x = default_();
I have something like that too…
Will invoke operator type, type = int.
user1182183
@GManNickG it's giving errors when used in a fucntion which is std::string..
01:24
@GamErix What function?
namespace query {
void ctime_r( ... ); // If ::ctime_r is to be found by unqualified lookup, the fallback must be found by ADL.

struct poor_converter // poor as poor_conversion, but better than "..."
	{ template< typename t > operator t & () {} };
}

template< bool en = std::is_same< char *, decltype( ctime_r( query::poor_converter(), query::poor_converter() ) ) >::value >
typename std::enable_if< en, char * >::type ctime( std::time_t const *t, char *&r )
	{ return ctime_r( typename std::enable_if< en, std::time_t const * >::type( t ), r ); } // bogus dependency guards potentially undefine
(see full text)
user1182183
string get_tip_text(area val) const {
    return default_();
}
user1182183
dunno how to fix it, string(""); ?
… but mine returns by reference to avoid the problems of actually making something.
Yea, replace that with return std::string();. Very awkward way to return a default...
user1182183
01:25
k
@GamErix That's just retarded.
user1182183
@Potatoswatter ye I know ; o
In C++11 you can do return {}; to return a default value of any type.
Though in fairness that technically should work.
user1182183
return {}; expected an expression xD
01:25
Did C++14 add declval(return), by the way?
I wanted to propose that.
user1182183
finally compiled
@GamErix Turn on C++11.
user1182183
@Potatoswatter how can that be turned off in VS2012? O_o
@GManNickG What does that do? You can use declval(auto) as a function return type.
Perfect return forwarding.
@Potatoswatter Ah, that's what it would do. :)
01:28
man
Though I find declval(auto) semantically meaningless at a glance.
I finally won my game of Doomed Earth
only 3 hours
What does auto mean there? return is more obvious.
@GManNickG Yeah, I don't like it either.
@Potatoswatter Just to be clear, that's C++14 right?
@Potatoswatter Cool. Maybe it's not too late to beg it be declval(return)...
C++11 is so 2012.
C++11 is so 2010. LOL. But I'm a bit scared by the accelerated development.
What are you scared for?
It's better to get comfortable with language features before adding another layer. It's bad for novices to be adjusting the language.
@StackedCrooked Mainly the prospect of adding core features which turn out to be redundant with idioms using the preexisting language.
01:32
I don't really understand.
I must be stupid or tired.
@Potatoswatter It's already hard for novices to learn good C++03/C++98.
Good morning BTW.
Designing a language is hard to get right. It's better to be patient. Too easy to design something broken or unnecessary.
user1182183
@Potatoswatter pizza is the perfect design for EVERYTHING
Most of the language additions are based from the current needs of users.
@MarkGarcia Yeah… C++11 only took shape after C++03 practice stabilized when the compilers finally started working right, in the late 2000's.
01:35
Language designers need user's feedbacks of the current language features first before they could do any reasonable change.
@MarkGarcia Besides that, the language is big enough to permit unexpected features. SFINAE based traits weren't intentionally designed into C++98. It's better to have time to be sure that the language doesn't already include features people are asking for.
@Potatoswatter But we're already getting a large C++11 feature set from compilers and that is good.
@MarkGarcia I'd agree to an extent, but they also have to keep in mind Henry Ford's old line about "If I'd listened to the customers, I'd have worked at breeding better horses."
@JerryCoffin Yeah. Improving on what's current isn't that much of an innovation.
Yeah. A lot of the customer feedback is that C++ should be more like Python.
01:38
Anyway, because there's now more attention in the standardization, compiler designers now have a better grasp of the language's future.
And they are more involved in it.
@MarkGarcia Actually, I think it's sort of the opposite. Until fairly recently, compiler vendors (mostly commercial ones) completely dominated most language standardization committees. Now there's a lot more input from actual users, and proportionally less from people who have such a vested interest in standardizing whatever they've already done, regardless of effects on the language. No, not all compiler vendors are always that short-sighted, but it definitely has happened at times.
@JerryCoffin Um. That also sounds like Boost. :)
@MarkGarcia I'd tend to agree -- I think Boost has done a lot to democratize C++. I think it's built much closer connections between people on the committee and the rest of the community. It gives current members a lot better feel for where there are shortcomings in real use, and a lot more outside the committee the idea that they can provide real input that will be taken seriously (assuming they're willing to do some real work at submitting serious, well-written proposals).
I also think C++ has done a lot to democratize language standardization in general. Especially among those with formal standardization, they've made big moves toward recognizing the standard itself as basically a software product, and using what's been learned over the last several decades about how to develop such a product well. Most others still basically view standardization as following something close to the waterfall model.
Everyone wants to have their libraries in Boost. Also directly to standardization. But they are just too... "ungeneralized". Building libraries on volatile technologies.
@JerryCoffin I feel that we need more "robust" deprecation of unnecessary or obsolete parts of the library.
We (I) don't want a bloated, do-it-all standard library. Though it's a good thing because building using the standard library makes your code more portable, etc.
01:55
@MarkGarcia That's one that's always going to be hard to do. I wouldn't expect a lot of progress there. Yes, it would be nice in some ways, but breaking backward compatibility is a major problem for people with big code bases.
With all these submissions and requests of graphics and stuff libraries, I think the standardization committee's adamant "No" will eventually break.
no, it won't
on the other hand, they did just add dynarray...
fuck
@JerryCoffin I wonder if the committee has concrete statistics on current code bases...
I hate it when you feel OK, but as soon as you lie down, you feel terrible.
@MarkGarcia They did when considering auto.
@DeadMG IMO, that's clearly different -- not their resolve breaking down, but a clear case of temporary insanity.
01:58
And a result of reading and rejecting tons of crappy submissions.
you weren't in the room when it was voted in and I was
@DeadMG who decides this? majority vote?
@MarkGarcia Obviously they don't have full statistics on all code that's ever been written, but equally clearly there are at least a few members who've put a fair amount of work into collecting real statistics on some pretty serious chunks of code.
@StackedCrooked Yes.
So dynarray and unique_ptr for arrays are basically redundant, but one has iterators and allocators and the other has deleters, right?
02:01
the primary issue is that the process is basically, "Everyone in the room at the time votes", and if the outcome is strongly in favour, it gets through LEWG
then only the WG21/PL22/etc voting members vote on the final motion
what felt really bad for me is that I was the only person strongly against dynarray
it wasn't just that it was a minority, it was just me.
I should try to attend. I'm good at this kind of debate (I think).
@DeadMG I sincerely applause you for that.
@DeadMG What argument did you emphasize?
I said that there was no implementation experience to prove that any compiler would find it worth their time to implement the optimization
I also said that the user could never depend on the improved performance, so any code depending on dynarray for performance could never be portable
and I also said that since the user could not tell when they would get improved performance with dynarray, they could not effectively implement efficient backup codepaths
02:06
also there was some stuff about allocators not being properly supported
but I think that the final motion mostly fixed that stuff
@DeadMG 1. Implementation only takes a few hours. It's stupid simple and can be hacked together from existing parts.
that's irrelevant.
the paper author did not present any evidence that this was the case.
2. There's always some user somewhere who can measure something.
3. ???
Fuck the democratic system.
you can't measure every compiler that will exist, every platform, etc.
02:08
Well, we don't have a better system...
The argument I'd present is that it just does the same thing as std::unique_ptr< T[] > which should be a sequence container anyway.
anyway, my main plan of attack right now is to show that dynamic stack allocation through alloca() isn't substantially superior in performance to a proper heap allocator.
@Potatoswatter: That's what I thought when I saw std::dynarray.
What's worse is we tell beginners "To get a dynamic array, use std::vector"
It sucks that they've made another failed attempt to fix std::temporary_buffer
Now we'll get "Why not dynarray? It's in the name!"
02:09
yeah
@Potatoswatter: Good point.
@DeadMG I don't think you really need to measure everything to get at least some idea. In this case, there's no evidence that anybody measured anything though. The real problem (IMO) is adding yet another semi-sort-of-pseudo-container with absolutely no certainty that it brings any new capability at all.
the whole "Surprise undefined behaviour because your allocation size was a smidge too big for the stack" thing, I can immediately see leading to dynarray being banned in many codebases.
Why couldn't the same compiler magic that will supposedly allow dynarray's to be on the stack not be applied to std::unique_ptr<T[]>?
@JerryCoffin Yes, but what I meant was that when you use dynarray, you can't know what other compilers do or do not optimize it, so even if you got a speedup, you can't know that it will remain faster in the future, or be faster on some other platform. Not that dynarray might not be faster than heap (which is another argument I make but didn't make in Bristol)
02:11
Fact is, when dynarray becomes available on my compiler I'll probably use it on occasion.
If you can analyze that far, you can add one more escape analysis step, I think.
@StackedCrooked Or on accident.
@GManNickG No, at least as specified, it's an alias for std::unique_ptr< T[], default_delete< T[] > >
@MarkGarcia Could be.
@Potatoswatter No.
02:12
But the result of the make_unique factory is another story.
@Potatoswatter Argh. I really wish dynamic allocation observable behavior was able to be elided...
@DeadMG No what? I don't mean it's an alias template, there's a default argument.
for example, dynarray<T>::iterator and other places where it imitates a std::vector in lots of other ways.
dynamic allocation observable behavior
What is that..?
ah, well if you meant, just the general semantics, then yes, it's basically an alias like that (but potentially with nasty hidden gotchas)
02:14
It seems to me that dynarray's biggest gotcha would be stack overflow. Can't think of anything else.
@StackedCrooked What potatoswatter was saying is that std::unique_ptr<int[]> couldn't be allocated on the stack as a magic optimization like I was suggesting, because its' defined to call delete (int*)p at some point.
@StackedCrooked Calling ::operator new, having a pointer which can be passed to ::operator delete
@DeadMG Yeah -- what I'm saying is that if (for example) I actually measure on, say, Windows/VC++, Linux/g++ and OS X/Clang, and get good results for all of them, that's probably a fair indication of its being useful within a fairly substantial domain. In this case, however, there seems to have been no real attempt at showing real improvement on any system.
And I could have replaced ::operator delete to have a std::cout << "Haha" on top of it.
@JerryCoffin There is not one single benchmark or any report of any tests in the dynarray paper.
02:15
Or ::operator new for that matter.
I've always wished they'd allow such observable behavior to be elided.
my current strategy for killing dynarray is to present a paper showing that a heap-based arena can offer very competitive performance with alloca.
So delete new int; could be optimized to no-op, for example.
@GManNickG It already can be- you'd need delete new T;.
02:16
@DeadMG: It'll be shot down when they bring up the effort involved.
oh, no, wait, global operator replacement.
@DeadMG Yeah.
@GManNickG I think they care more about not introducing duff features than the effort of removing dynarray from CD.
@DeadMG I don't think you'll win.
I think it depends on the numbers I come back with.
02:17
There are a lot of markets for C++. You can't make benchmarks that general.
no, no
the burden of proof is on the dynarray authors.
all I have to do is show a reasonable doubt, as it were, that the performance is so much better
@DeadMG But it's already known that stack allocation is always fastest (on modern used paltforms). It's just a single assembly instruction.
@GManNickG Er, actually, it's not.
@StackedCrooked At least IMO, the biggest problem is that we're adding yet another new interface for something that could probably have been hidden in something like a different allocator for an existing interface. That way, it's easy to write code to the general interface, and change allocators when/if it provides a substantial benefit (but with minimal changes to the code in general).
that's only the really simple view of stack allocation, but there's a lot more going on Under The Hood™
02:18
Novice programmers tend to have an obsession for arrays. Then they start using C++ and get frustrated when they find out that array length must be known at compile time. That's why they want dynarray.
2
if you actually look at the implementation of alloca, it is not sub esp x;
@JerryCoffin Yup. I've written allocators that accept a pointer to some backing store and know the limit, and I just stack allocate prior to creating it and there you go.
for example
on x64 the stack pointer is aligned at 16 bytes by default for many implementations (or maybe it's 8 byte), so you have to consider how to align it- a heap allocator could have less alignment.
then you also have to consider that your local variables are no longer at a fixed offset from the stack pointer, so you're creating extra register pressure
@StackedCrooked Now the frustration's on us who knew that array sizes needs to be a compile-time constant.
02:20
and finally
why should adjusting a pointer into the hardware stack's memory be any faster than adjusting a pointer into the heap's memory?
@DeadMG I think it's because the stack is pre-allocated?
@MarkGarcia Can do that for heap too.
@MarkGarcia He's talking about getting memory from an arena.
the stack isn't special in memory terms, it's just a conveniently pre-allocated chunk.
02:21
@MarkGarcia Not really. The stack is used enough that the top few pages will usually be in cache, but if you use a stack-like arena allocator as much, you'll get the same effect.
so infact, if you take care (instead of just throwing new T; at the problem), you absolutely can get competitive performance out of your heap (especially when you consider things like no O(n) moves, no surprise UB for too-large allocations)
@DeadMG The problem is that you're arguing in negative terms, which people don't like to hear. The rhetoric issue is bigger than the technical issue. The other side of the debate really doesn't even want to listen. They might even be completely incapable.
It's essential to propose an alternative solution first, then show how it negates their original problem.
sure
the alternative solution is to Standardise the arena allocator and a few others
Exactly.
Has a proposal been written? That doesn't sound trivial.
I did present a water-testing paper in Bristol
02:24
@Potatoswatter I think if he can show a heap-based allocator that gives (at least roughly) equal performance with, say, std::vector or std:unique_ptr, he can probably make the argument a lot more positive.
they seemed interested but wanted a lot more work to be done
But you're right: just saying: dynarray sucks, isn't likely to get very far. Being able to say "dynarray is unnecessary because we can get just as good of performance from <insert existing interface here>" will go a lot further.
I think
if I'm very very lucky
I can kill the core language runtime arrays too
although they don't offend me as much as dynarray does
wait, we have VLAs?
I personally, however, see a lot of standards efforts seeming to step back from working at a relatively abstract level where optimization is left to the implementation, and moving much more toward directly specifying what should (IMO) be implementation details. I suppose I shouldn't be surpised, given the quality of many implementations, but I'm disappointed anyway.
02:28
not really
they're run-time bounded, but none of the other insanity from C.
Why do we need dynarray then?
they compared T[N] -> std::array<T, N> with T arr[n] -> std::dynarray<T>(n)
also in theory dynarray can be things like members and still be optimized whereas T[n] cannot
My quest for a dual socket 1050 motherboard continues.
Hmm. If it has so many compiler hooks, shouldn't dynarray be in language support library, not the containers library?
02:30
@JerryCoffin Give example?
@Potatoswatter Nah. Strictly, dynarray doesn't have to have any language support at all. You can just directly forward to unique_ptr<T[]> and get a conforming implementation.
dynarray is a language opportunity, not a language change, if you get my drift.
Wait a minute. In the current draft, dynarray has no Allocator parameter but does provide an allocator-aware interface.
It just refers to an Alloc parameter which doesn't exist.
yeah, the dynarray -> allocator interaction is bad.
@DeadMG What we've just being discussing is one -- somewhere around 5 different array-like types in C++, each with a slightly different interface, in the (mostly vain, IMO) hope of some fairly minor optimizations. I know you don't like it in general, but OpenGL has done a lot of the same, replacing a nice, clean, abstract display list interface with dramatically more work in the form of VBOs, and placing a great deal more burden on the programmer to ultimately achieve roughly the same end.
How can they reconcile the allocator with the supposed optimization opportunity?
@JerryCoffin Display lists vs VBOs is a completely different thing.
firstly, for a 3D API like OGL, performance absolutely is observable. For a programming language, maybe not so much, but a 3D API, absolutely. They can, and should, do basically anything in the name of superior performance.
also, I personally have not used display lists, but from memory, it would have been impossible for them to have competitive performance with VBOs. Not just unlikely, or implementation quality, impossible. That's untenable.
02:36
Oh, never mind. The allocator is a parameter of the constructor alone… hmm
@DeadMG Not really -- a well implemented display list accomplishes similar things to a VBO. A VBO simply eliminates the clean interface, and requires the programmer to deal with all the ugly internals.
@JerryCoffin Display lists were really before my time. Perhaps you should show a really quick example? Perhaps I'm thinking of a different feature/API style.
ah, yes
@DeadMG Sorry, but it's simply not true. There have been implementations of display lists that were entirely competitive. The problem was that a few companies (especially ATI) did a really shitty job on them, so they didn't get used. Based on that, Kronos basically concluded that the only route was to specify all the internals in such detail that it was nearly impossible to fuck it up.
the Googles implies that they were untenable because they were immutable.
@JerryCoffin Hehehe. I don't think so. With C as OpenGL's language, it can't do much of an abstraction. :)
02:38
@MarkGarcia well android does it for OpenGL
@DeadMG They were immutable, but they didn't have to throw them out and start over with something entirely different to fix that.
They're just catching up with DirectX.
@MarkGarcia Actually, they can and they did.
@MarkGarcia I agree.
@MarkGarcia More accurately, falling behind to DirectX.
02:40
Haha. I've long lost hope for OpenGL winning against DirectX.
anyway
@MarkGarcia Given how badly they've screwed up recent versions, I'd agree. If they'd improved it instead, I'm not sure about "winning", but it could have been a lot easier to use with completely competitive performance.
regardless of the relative merits of display lists and VBOs, for OGL, I think I would forgive a large number of sins, including too many implementation details, in the pursuit of the best performance
Good lord, if you pass a random allocator to dynarray::dynarray, it's just quietly ignored! Per 20.8.7.2.
They should have worked more on OpenGL-OpenCL interop. They could have gained a double win.
02:43
The point wasn't really about OpenGL vs. DirectX though -- it was about giving up on specifying an interface at a relatively abstract level, and leaving it to an implementation to do that well, and instead forcing programming to deal directly with what could perfectly well have been internal details.
@MarkGarcia OpenCL has poor support: for example same code runs on differently on different GPUs. I can't recommend anybody do a deployment and expect it to run well on both AMD and Nvidia
I think that OGL is being seriously crippled by the billions of backwards compat and terrible C interface.
@DeadMG If you were really sure it improved performance, I think you could be forgiven for that -- but I don't think in either of these cases there's any such assurance.
@JerryCoffin Hm. Now that you've put it, I think OpenGL would become too low-level like that it will become a good ground for a nice abstraction.
02:45
and also (again, I'm not an OGL man, but) I think that there are many places where OGL does not standardise enough functionality.
like, I seem to recall Dom saying that even something trivial like double buffering and buffer flipping was not part of their standard API.
@MarkGarcia Maybe. I hope so -- but I'm not particularly convinced.
@JerryCoffin Oh. Again, I'm not an OGL guy, but I don't think display lists could work compared to the VBO model because hardware instancing.
@DeadMG "It's left for the window system". That, I think, is where OpenGL has an edge against DirectX. (DirectX has this DXGI, but OpenGL has it from the start).
@MarkGarcia Yeah, in that OGL's only core advantage over DX is portability but you can't take advantage of it much because you HAVE to implement a bunch of OS-specific stuff to do the most basic things.
Anyone know if the <applet> tag is history and I should use the <object> tag instead? Or is this just speculation?
02:49
of course for DX, they don't have a problem with saying "Use the Windows-specific functions we provide".
@DeadMG Portability was an almost incidental advantage. The primary advantage was that it was simply a better, cleaner, more abstract design.
@DeadMG What about display lists do you think would interact poorly with hardware instancing?
@JerryCoffin Well, from the samples I found, there's no way to send more than one data stream to the GPU at once.
whereas hardware instancing is based on receiving more than one input stream.
@RolandSams Do what you think is best and someone will fix it if they are more confident something is better.
and I also figured originally that a display list was something DX did not have any equivalent to, but thinking back to it, it's really just a shader, but where you can only use half the fixed-function pipeline (plus an attached VBO of course)
Still, they're just catching up with DirectX. With DirectX having the same VBOs and stuff, OpenGL doing "the same thing" would make implementors use what they currenly have with DirectX.
02:52
@MarkGarcia They definitely need a new, killer feature that DX does not have.
@DeadMG To an extent it's true -- for hardware instancing, you basically want to separate the string of commands from the data on which they operate. Using the immediate mode commands in OpenGL wouldn't work well with that. Using something like glDrawArrays, it was pretty easy.
@GManNickG Thanks for your reply. I think I will just go with the applet tag because (for now) it is more standard and universal
@DeadMG If only implementors weren't that lazy in implementing OGL features...
well
0_0
0_0
anyone need some html help
02:53
in some sense, I feel the "poor implementation quality" thing.
but in some other sense, I feel that if OGL had been competitive with DX in the past, implementors would have had more reason to implement it with high quality.
in 2013 I'm not sure how ATI could justify to their shareholders a large investment in OGL implementation for PC parts
Haha. Khronos being proud with Intel working hard on OpenGL. What an irony.
@JerryCoffin I think a solid part of OGL's problems aren't so much technical as they are a problem of image.
DirectX has a complete API refresh each version, for example, no legacy crud hanging around, and COM is really nowhere near as bad as the OGL C stuff
Okay guys I use OpenGL a lot and it works well, I am not sure what you people are talking about...
@DeadMG No -- COM is many times worse.
@JerryCoffin Not the parts that you actually have to interact with if you're using DX.
02:57
@Mikhail We like C++ and we like abstractions -- something OpenGL currently is having a bad time trying to achieve.
@DeadMG That's probably partly true. It does definitely have some technical problems as well, but I think most of those could have been fixed. The image problem was (and is) much harder.
I mean, really, it's just a custom deleter away from RAII-enabled out the box, QueryInterface isn't substantially different to llvm::dyn_cast or a bunch other similar stuff
@DeadMG Sorry, but I've written both. COM is dramatically worse.
@MarkGarcia I always found abstraction something that a game library should go do...
@JerryCoffin You don't have to write COM to use DX, just consume it.
02:58
@Mikhail But never something like GameAsset* ass = g_assetManager.get("some_duckling.jpg");. No we definitely don't want that.
@MarkGarcia looks like Qt
@DeadMG For me DX is a no go because of the MS connection. I see no reason to limit my code to MS only. I use OpenGL on Windows, Linux and Android...
@Mikhail Yes. That's why I don't like the library.
@Mikhail Pity that if you're programming a game for PC then DX is 95% of the consumer base.

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