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08:02
@thecoshman so did Robot get his gift yet?
@TonyTheLion no, not even had shipping confirmation yet :(
@TonyTheLion congratz reg. your driving license
but I trust the site, they can be a bit slow at times, but eventually get there
@FredOverflow thanks. :)
@TonyTheLion Good work! Congrats.
08:05
@thecoshman maybe you could send me something? :P
@rightfold I don't get it, what are the Java and C rectangles in the third picture supposed to be?
@TonyTheLion sorry, one is not allowed to send faecal matter via the postal service
ahahaha
TIL some people would actually mail me a turd if they could
not sure if proud or mentally scarred by the thought forever
so you actually going to make use of the pink paper you know have?
08:07
@TonyTheLion nah, I wouldn't really do that.
I was joking
@TonyTheLion your driving licence :P you going to get a hoopity car?
@TonyTheLion I WASN'T ಠ_ಠ
@thecoshman I have a car. I've had a car for the last 8 months
I drove by myself to work this morning.
Was funz
oh... well I guess you are making use of that pink paper :P
yep
what is it with people having pet raccoons? It's the second pic I see on Reddit in like two days of someone with a pet raccoon.
I didn't even know they had them as pets :/
08:11
'Merica!
but yeah, me think I shall look into motorbike driving :)
more fun, able to get driving my self a lot sooner
... potentially more dangerous...
more fun
yea
you'd have more freedom, even with a motorbike, then you have now
just hope that when a full licence is unlocked, the misses is not too scared to ride with me...
lol
@thecoshman oh yea, heh
@DeadMG gm
@TonyTheLion If only that was possible. :(
08:18
@Tuntuni invasion of privacy, is my first thought on that.
Google would have to be able to look in your house
Not sure I'd feel entirely comfortable with that.
:/
Lol that's one possibility. Maybe it used MAGIC to get the answer? :)
ahahahah
@TonyTheLion it's not a invasion if it is invited
The answer just pops up.
@thecoshman true
08:20
So what's really going on is that the girl in the picture wants Google to look at her house.
@Tuntuni it uses magica anyway
@Tuntuni yes.... house...
@thecoshman Good to know we're on the same wavelength.
I wonder if @CatPlusPlus had this many Pizza boxes?
@TonyTheLion Probably more. :3
@TonyTheLion to what is that a reference?
@thecoshman to the fact that he always buys Pizza and he has said he has lots of boxes before
@TonyTheLion lol
@TonyTheLion ah
@TonyTheLion lawl nice
TIL @catplusplus is a slob
08:30
you didn't know that already? Woah
oooh, that's nice. I am old enough in Ireland to not be limited to 125cc, just to 25Kw... what ever the hell that works out as :S
@Xeo Say, did you get to read about SECs in the end? Did it help with (.).(.).(.) and so on?
Xeo
Xeo
I glanced over it, but it didn't really help, no :(
I mean, I kinda understand how it works when the chain is done, but not how the chaining of the boobs itself works.
What about chaining fst and snd?
hmm... I might even be able to start on full sized bikes... which I here is actually easier then little tiny bikes
@LucDanton he he he, boobs
Xeo
Xeo
08:40
@LucDanton Also, it seemed like a.b.c would get the a part, then the b part, then the c part, but composition is right-to-left, and GHCI confirms with fst.snd yielding (a, (b, c)) -> b
@thecoshman how old are you again?
@TonyTheLion ... let me just think... 24... and about a half
yourself?
woah how old do you have to be in Ireland to get a full bike license then?
I'm 26, I turn 27 next month
08:44
@TonyTheLion well, you can start learning at 16, like in UK. And you get a 'full' licence fairly quick. Minimum 6 months before you cna take the test. But you can no get FULL licence, for any size bike, until at least 20
@Xeo You're completely right, I misremembered -- it's first and second that you chain. I don't think it's any help in understanding though.
as I am 24 I can got direct to full licence, else I would have to get a slightly restricted licence and after two years it will upgrade automatically (I think it's automatically)
UK has more or less the same system, those these details change all the time
Anyway the bit that helped me understand was the result = (.) insight. Sorry if that doesn't help. (You're on to something when you commented about the order of composition though!)
@thecoshman ah I see
@thecoshman right so go for it!
:)
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton Those were for arrows, right? Which is for function-like things IIRC?
08:51
@Xeo chaining boobs, interesting concept :P
Xeo
Xeo
In any case, today's kind of a bad day to try and learn this... so much to do at work. :(
It's from Control.Arrow, yes. Still interesting if restricted to functions though: first :: (a -> b) -> (a, x) -> (b, x).
@TonyTheLion ¬_¬ you seem to be keen for me to put my self at risk
@thecoshman urgh, no, I want you to be able to go places more easily.
@ereOn! you just imagine a kelogger. unfortunately code is not available right now! — user2355029 6 mins ago
08:55
@TonyTheLion :P sure, that's sounds like it
An "Imagine my code and give me an answer" question, now that's new
@thecoshman :|
the one thing I can't work out though... in UK you have to do CBT ( compulsory basic training) before you get your learner licence. But I'm not sure if Ireland has an equivalent...
@TonyTheLion ahhh, I be messing with ya
0
Q: How to set up permissions für Umbraco correctly? (Repository unavailable on install)

ServI can't get an Umbraco installation set up completly. I have been running into the error: Oops...the installer can't connect to the repository Starter Kits could not be fetched from the repository as there was no connection - which can occur if you are using a proxy server or firewal...

lol at title
a German word in the middle of all that English
"How to have different implementations for the same Klasse ?"
08:58
@TonyTheLion What does für mean?
@MarkGarcia for
Oh. I thought it was something other than that.
-2
Q: a weird result about void* GetUserData() from box2d in cocos2d-x

BBgunI have a hero class which inherits two classes called BaseEnity and CCNode. BaseEnity is just a simple class contains a tag which i use it to identify objects. class BaseEnity { public: int getMyTag(); int m_typeTag; protected: void setMyTag(int tag); }; then I set the m_type memmber...

NARQ
@TonyTheLion The fuck with the casts.
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton Yeah, I read about Arrows a bit.
But I can't see what they're good for except functions. :(
(Also, what is a "Kleisli"?)
09:02
SECs might form a category. Some lens-related bits are.
Xeo
Xeo
(Btw, I have a feeling I asked this before.)
Well I did point you to the Kleisli arrow.
Heinrich Kleisli (October 19, 1930 – April 5, 2011) was a Swiss mathematician. He is the namesake of several constructions in category theory, including the Kleisli category and Kleisli triples. He is also the namesake of the Kleisli Query System, a tool for integration of heterogeneous databases developed at the University of Pennsylvania. Kleisli earned his Ph.D. at ETH Zurich in 1960. His dissertation was on homotopy and Abelian categories. He served as an associate professor at the University of Ottawa before relocating to the University of Fribourg in 1966. He became a full prof...
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton That didn't help. :/
But... that's the question you asked :(
Xeo
Xeo
Maybe I'm not versed enough with category stuff
09:04
@Xeo Oh sorry I thought you were wondering where you found out about Kleisli.
I don't recall you asking about the category though.
@MarkGarcia I don't know, n00bs
user142019
@FredOverflow Java looks angry at C. See knowyourmeme.com/memes/boardroom-suggestion.
@Xeo Maybe, but maybe not. If you want to do maths for maths sake then yeah it's nice. If you want to do some programming I don't think arrows are interesting as long as you don't plan going bananas FRP.
When I mentioned first I really was more thinking about pairs than arrows.
fmap (first (+1) is concise isn't it?
@LucDanton The arrows being functions, that would be the category of sets, or maybe, of Haskell types.
This talk fo arrows reminds me.
09:10
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not sure where we're going with this.
I could probably use the reverse-arrow operator to make Haskell list comprehension in C++
Btw should it be spelled Hask or Hask?
Does the bold make it a different spelling?
@Rapptz I don't want to make a bad impression :v
Xeo
Xeo
09:11
@LucDanton If it works... ? A naive try with fmap (first (+1)) arr (1,2) didn't work, and (fmap (first (+1)) arr const (1,2)) anything did, but seemed kinda wrong.
> :t fmap (first (+1))
fmap (first (+1)) :: (Functor f, Num a) => f (a, d) -> f (a, d)
> fmap (first (+1)) [(0, "hi"), (42, "hallo")]
[(1,"hi"),(43,"hallo")]
Xeo
Xeo
D'oh
I was stuck in arrow-thinking
Btw fmap is also a SEC so you can go (fmap.first) (+1) list
Xeo
Xeo
Composing those is friggin confusing me. :(
If you have two SECs you can compose them into a further SEC.
Well, I guess that's not the confusing part, is it?
I have to say I don't try to compose them in my head. As long as the compiler agrees, I rely on it.
Xeo
Xeo
09:18
I'll have to take a look at it again this evening or something...
09:30
I was wondering if I could put this into a neat arrow diagram that would make it obvious but exponentials are my weak spot.
@R.MartinhoFernandes two things a) did you get my ping from earlier this morning? b) it's shipped :D
7-10 workings days is the estimate o_0
@thecoshman a) yes; fuckers. b) nice. Should I expect it on Friday?
Ah.
That means Friday 24th it should be there. Good enough.
@R.MartinhoFernandes a) money b) yes... but which friday?
@thecoshman Doesn't matter. I am around those parts every Friday.
exciting stuff :D
user142019
09:40
Good morning.
Doesn't really help, does it? :( @Xeo
Xeo
Xeo
I have no clue what that's supposed to show. :(
It's fucked up.
user142019
What do you want to understand? Functors?
Xeo
Xeo
Arrows and SECs, I guess
09:46
If you rename fmap to element does it become easier to understand that (element.first) (+1) is the function that adds one to the first of each element in the list?
Xeo
Xeo
Wait, didn't that blogpost have the order as (first.element) or am I misremembering?
That would be for ([a], b), not [(a,b)] (i.e. elements of the first component, not the first component of the elements).
@Xeo They are composable any which way. It does alter the meaning though.
Xeo
Xeo
Yeah, but I remember that the syntax was kinda like member access in C++ with the order.
@Xeo And it is.
Xeo
Xeo
09:51
Huh. I'm confused, gimme a sec
With [(a,b)] you have to get inside the list first (element) and only then inside the pair (first). So element.first.
Why do we need template <typename U> for the friend functions here. I was curious and tried using T but don't really understand the error. Could someone clarify?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are those exponents lol?
user142019
@Tuntuni T is already something else.
@LucDanton Yes. Functions are exponentials.
Xeo
Xeo
09:52
@R.MartinhoFernandes But.. but... (g . f) x = g $ f x, no?
I think that's the part that is confusing me
@LucDanton It sounds kinda fucked up/retarded, but it does make perfect sense. Once you get past the initial shock.
@rightfold So why can't we make those functions friends of the class?
user142019
template<typename T>
struct foo {
    // T is now in scope.
    template<typename U> void foo() {
        // U is now in scope, as well as T.
    }
};
user142019
@Tuntuni They are friends of the class.
@rightfold I meant the ones that would take T.
E.g. why isn't print_binary_helper<T> print_binary(T value) possible as a friend?
09:53
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know. The 'lol' was my 'you're using that in your explanation' reaction.
I don't think it ever shocked me... what with e.g. cardinality.
user142019
@Tuntuni Me too.
Powersets etc the usual stuff.
user142019
@Tuntuni The fact that the declaration and definition differ in the name of the template parameters doesn't matter, just like you can do this:
user142019
void foo(int x);
void foo(int y) {
    print(x);
}
@Tuntuni It is possible. Have to declare the function template before using the specialization in the friend declaration though.
09:55
@rightfold Oh what o_O
user142019
It cares only about the signatures, of which the parameter names are not part.
@rightfold Oh, that's right.
@Xeo map (first (+1)) is simple, no?
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, g . f first applies f then g, while element.first access the elements of the list, and then the first of each, i.e. first element then first...
09:57
And if I declared foo(int x, int y) but defined foo(int y, int x) what would be the first argument?
Xeo
Xeo
Names in a declaration don't matter
@Tuntuni The one right after the opening parens.
@Xeo Ahh, right, right. Completely forgot about that. Thanks.
@Xeo Make sure you get the difference between first and fst.
user142019
The same goes for templates.
user142019
09:58
template<typename T> foo();
template<typename U> foo() {
    // fine
}
Hah, I've never cared for the (apparent) reversed order of composition. I've always considered it a neat artifact of currying. I've just done the expansion in my head though, it's cute!
Neither element nor first "access" things. They lift functions into an augmented type. first lifts functions to (X, b), and element lifts them to [X].
So with element.first you are saying "lift this function to pairs with b, and then that result to lists"
user142019
Is haskell.org down?
@rightfold So if T and U are the same type, why can't I use T instead of U?
user142019
Ah nevermind, crappy Internet connection.
user142019
10:02
@Tuntuni T was already defined in that scope.
Xeo
Xeo
@Tuntuni It's about names, not types.
user142019
10 mins ago, by rightfold
template<typename T>
struct foo {
    // T is now in scope.
    template<typename U> void foo() {
        // U is now in scope, as well as T.
    }
};
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think I understand it now, but I still seem to have some kind of blockage. Or, rather, there hasn't been an "AHA!" moment yet. :(
And now that explanation mirrors my diagram quite neatly :) Bonus point if you get that too :P
There doesn't have to be imo.
user142019
10:03
Not sure how the shadowing rules are w.r.t. template parameters, though, and if they shadow at all.
Xeo
Xeo
They don't
user142019
So, error, right?
Xeo
Xeo
You simply aren't allowed to have two with the same name
user142019
Well @Tuntuni there you have it.
Oh. But if I remove the template <typename U> completely and just replace Us with Ts? Or is this the same thing? (I'm still trying to get my head around templates so forgive me.)
Xeo
Xeo
10:05
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nope, don't get it. :(
I feel like I'm not getting something obvious.
11 mins ago, by Luc Danton
@Tuntuni It is possible. Have to declare the function template before using the specialization in the friend declaration though.
@Xeo Nah, don't bother with the diagram.
user142019
@Tuntuni Can you give a code example of what you mean?
@LucDanton Ah, I was about to ask you a question regarding that but then I forgot, sorry. So how would I do that?
SECs are kind of like fmaps all the way down.
10:06
By the time you 'get' the diagram you don't need it.
@Tuntuni sec
Xeo
Xeo
Oooh, wait, element.first composes the lifting - the lifting of (+1), for example.
sandvich tiem
first is fmap for f a = (a,b).
10:07
I commented out the thing I would remove and then replaced U with T.
Xeo
Xeo
Cool, there was my "AHA" moment
user142019
@Tuntuni I have no idea whether that's possible.
Next up: 2h long lens talk!
Xeo
Xeo
I somehow thought element.first would operate directly on some data structure.
@rightfold It doesn't compile here. What is that different thing?
10:08
@Xeo It does! It operates on functions!
user142019
@Tuntuni I think it doesn't work that way with friend functions.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes heh
@rightfold Heh. Do you know why?
@Tuntuni That's something different.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hm.. is a pair a functor?
10:12
It makes one particular function friend. With template <...> it makes all those functions friends.
@Xeo With a appropriate fmaps, both "pair with a first" and "pair with b second" are.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, that's what I expected it to do. Shouldn't it work because it is the same type everywhere and the function should be found?
I.e. (,) isn't, but (a,) and (,b) are.
Xeo
Xeo
Huh, what would the Functor instance look like?
Ah, you can just do (a,)?
@Xeo Not on types, I think. I am abusing the notation :P
10:13
¬_¬ it still amazes me just how much shit is done at work casually using root
Xeo
Xeo
aw
What would it look like then, on types?
type PairF b = (a, b)
type PairS a = (a, b)
Xeo
Xeo
Hm, I guess
You need to enable some extensions to actually make instance Functors out of those though.
Xeo
Xeo
Hm... what's a for PairF?
10:15
Some fixed type/
Oh.
Xeo
Xeo
wokay
I can make it better.
user142019
Is PairF a phantom type?
type PairF a b = (a, b)
type PairS b a = (a, b)
Xeo
Xeo
yeah, that makes more sense to me
10:16
With second and first respectively, PairF something and PairS something are functors.
Ugh, I suck.
Fucked up the names.
Xeo
Xeo
So, tangential-question: What things, except functions, are arrows?
It's Pair Functor and Pair Screwit.
@Xeo Kleisli arrows are arrows. :P
Xeo
Xeo
:|
It's still an important point: whether something is a function or not is not the salient point when it comes to arrows of a category.
10:19
Prelude> :m +Control.Arrow
Prelude Control.Arrow> :i Arrow
class Control.Category.Category a => Arrow a where
  arr :: (b -> c) -> a b c
  first :: a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
  second :: a b c -> a (d, b) (d, c)
  (***) :: a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b, b') (c, c')
  (&&&) :: a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
        -- Defined in `Control.Arrow'
instance Monad m => Arrow (Kleisli m) -- Defined in `Control.Arrow'
instance Arrow (->) -- Defined in `Control.Arrow'
Prelude Control.Arrow>
No more arrows in that module.
Xeo
Xeo
Meh, I get more and more the feeling that I should learn me some category theory.
You can write parsers with arrows, but I don't really know any names.
And then there's all that UI interaction stuff (FRP and shit).
1 hour ago, by Luc Danton
@Xeo Maybe, but maybe not. If you want to do maths for maths sake then yeah it's nice. If you want to do some programming I don't think arrows are interesting as long as you don't plan going bananas FRP.
@Xeo Meh, I never actively studied it. I learned the bits I know incidentally.
Xeo
Xeo
But you guys keep talking about that Kleisli stuff. :|
10:23
@Xeo Kleisli arrows are "monadic functions"
I really don't. I thought you were inquiring about the name.
newtype Kleisli m a b = Kleisli (a -> m b)
Kinda of annoying that you can't make type synonym instances and have to newtype it. (Don't worry; there's an app extension for that!)
If I type ZipList =... and provide an instance for that, what happens if I fmap id ["lol"]?
Or an applicative thingy I suppose.
10:28
What the fuck is a Canada?
So if std::push_heap has implementation defined ordering, does that mean std::priority_queue has implementation defined ordering for elements with the same value?
That latter part sounds like it's more about stability than ordering.
@LucDanton I guess that's what I meant.
I just want determinism across multiple compilers
You can always artificially add stability with something like compare_by(id, std::addressof).
@R.MartinhoFernandes wut?
10:44
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment.
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes compare_by :D
fucking stupid fucking internal fucking wankstain fucking website providing shitty data in a shitty fucking format and making you fucking twat around to get any fucking scrap of fucking shit from it
Xeo
Xeo
although comparing by address will only yield relative stability for that run, but if that's all that is needed...
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
The nicest bit is that (`on` f) is reusable for other stuff, i.e., not attached to compare.
10:48
I knew that.. oddly enough.
Also hi.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Projections? I was just asking about that not long ago!
compare `on` (f &&& g) is also neat.
ah now, @catplusplus, are you even trying
Xeo
Xeo
Hm, shouldn't on also be expressible through Arrows?
@Xeo Probably not worth it. It's not unary.
Xeo
Xeo
10:57
hm

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