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16:00
it would need a "this is terrible" button that you can click forever
@EtiennedeMartel I'm up for it
the name sorta fits, too
@TonyTheLion he would soon get tired
To sum it all up:
1) We're not actually removing the `faq` tags yet, this conversation was strictly to see how it might impact you.
2) Removing it would impact searchability for finding questions quickly, for reference or for closing questions
3) You feel the removal of the tag would be detrimental because there is a dearth of authoritative sources which you feel that this tag can help identify for the C++ community at large.
4) The existence of the tag is slightly detrimental because you'll close new questions against those reference questions which doesn't do enough to actually *help* the
@EtiennedeMartel: Need lunch then.. design time :D
Did I miss anything in relation to the faq tags?
16:01
@casperOne Yeah, I agree. With the small adjustment that I don't think "help the user" is as narrow as you do. Sometimes the "teach a man to fish" approach is way more helpful. Even if the OP doesn't realise it.
5) (i.e. There's no overwhelming outcry against the possibility of categorising c++-faq questions in some other (non-meta-tag) way, if such technology existed on SO (which it presently does not)).
@casperOne In #3, "it is detrimental" refers to the FAQ, right? And not the deletion of it?
@jalf Yes, to the existence of the tag, not the deletion of it.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Just added #4, but yes.
I thought 3) meant "you feel that tag deletion would be detrimental because[..]"
@casperOne Oh, missed that. Yeah.
@casperOne I'd say (for me) is most useful to be able to find those top answers quickly.
@sehe and the reason you need to find them quickly is when answering/closing-as-dupes new questions, correct?
16:05
@sehe Updated #2
@sehe I find that the best answers are not on questions.
blargh, I switched to D2D1.1 / updated DirectWrite, so now it can interop with D3D11 directly, no keyedmutex crap...but I still get exactly the same behavior. now it fails completely silently though...
y'know, I don't remember the last time I closed any question as a dupe of a faq question
I just link to them
@melak47 OpenGL please and thank you
@GamesBrainiac What? That's how she beat my rep count?
@EtiennedeMartel : lol...poor you
16:07
@jalf that. but i'll also reference them for background information in more tailored answers.
perhaps a simple (partial) solution would be to introduce special handling of "*-faq" tags. A question can only be marked FAQ if it has been linked to from other questions at least N times (or if others have been closed as dupes of it). So if I wanted to create a crappy [r-faq] question, I couldn't, until the question had "proven its worth"
@LightnessRacesinOrbit true. Yet, the faq items would otherwise be very hard to distinguish, precisely because of the F in FAQ: they're asked requently, so there are many 'so-so' contending answers.
that still doesn't solve my problems with the FAQ, but it would solve yours, of getting rid of the bad-quality knock-offs
@sehe I think is a misnomer. Pretty much none of those questions are "asked frequently". might make more sense. And then we're back to "why is this a tag? and actually why is it even on SO?"
and then we're back to "let's expand the tag wiki system"
Did anyone mention we monitor the use / abuse of by @feeds subscription in the lounge?
16:09
@jalf oooh and make the BG colour maroon!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm not into any politics here. I just said how I use the tag, and how it benefits me most. Someone else can redraw the future if that is really necessary
@sehe *shrug* Whatevs. Just saying.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Same here
directed at you only because of the reply-y nature
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, that's clarified - no problem
16:10
@sehe yeah, and once again I'd love to see the latter case catered for more. Make it easier for me to custom-tailor an answer to a question which has "sort-of" been asked before, or or where a "frequently answered answer" should be part of the full answer, but wouldn't be able to stand alone
why doesn't English have an adjectival adjunct for "reply"?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'return'?
1
C and C++

Proposed Q&A site for all C and C++ coders, that want to ask questions about C and C++ in general, including questions currently not welcome on Stack Overflow (like questions on SO tags language-lawyer and C++-faq)

Currently in definition.

@speeder that is the worst idea ever
16:11
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'return'? (return mail, return statement etc.)
@speeder I don't like this.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What I thought of when reading that sentence: seven of nine-tertiary adjunct of unimatrix zero-one, grid 9-2 of subjunction 12
just because of adjunct -.-;
@speeder Note that your proposal would not permit the last part (stuff not allowed on SO); those guidelines (not constructive, listy, language lawyer) are pretty much network-wide. Also, you'd instantly become a dumping ground for an extreme amount of crap.
Fucking trekkies.
i love you too
16:13
@casperOne programmers.SE covers a lot of language lawyery, doesn't it?
@speeder Well, I don't understand it. I don't recall ever seeing you here, in the C++ sub community of Stack Overflow. How come you jump to an initiative unilaterally, then drop it here to see if we're interested?
@sehe lame
@Borgleader :)
@speeder Is < faster than <=? is it really question ?
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hey, that's not me. Blame English
16:13
@TonyTheLion I'm really skeptical about that video. Looks to me like "hey heres what were planning to do" rather than "heres how it actually works"
@NullPointer It's even a frequent one. Sadly
NullPointer it is the fourth or fifth most voted C++ question on SO
@jalf I don't believe it's in their scope. They've battened down the hatches because they were the dumping grounds for listy shit on SO and that quickly spiralled out of control. They are no longer on the migration list for users. Only mods can migrate.
@sehe hardly unilaterally. Area 51 supports discussions and is completely predicated on democracy
@sehe Oh I do
> We’re looking for bold, creative individuals who want to join us and be a part of shaping the future of Glass.
Standard marketing bullshit.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: A roomful of happy skeptics huddling to create a good place on the interwebs [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-helpdesk]
@sehe I in the last year or so was using Lua, anyway I switched back to C++, asked a question, got bashed, and when I asked on Meta, someone pointed me a old discussion about language-laywer tag, where C and C++ folks wanted to keep it, while everyone else wanted to delete it.
@EtiennedeMartel more like "blowing the future of Glass" amirite?
If this was able to be filtered on a tag, would that help with the searchability issue?
@casperOne No; where did that come from?!
@casperOne I'd love to see that for specific tags.
16:15
@LightnessRacesinOrbit We've had that for a while.
On it, people explained WHY the C++ subcommunity of SO tend accumulate questions that should be closed... So I thought it was appropraite instead to have a C and C++ separate site.
Question is, if it was filterable by tag, would that help with the FAQ tag issue.
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, my lawyer says we probably can't sue, but we can claim a part of the revenue generated
> Using Google+ or Twitter
Why not Facebook, hmmm?
16:15
@casperOne where's the link on the UI?
@sehe LOL
@speeder Appropriate perhaps. Feasible? Nah.
@speeder Nice story. However, in no way does it address my question.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit There is none, I had to ask three people for it. There was a blog post I think somewhere.
@sehe what is your question?
16:16
@casperOne Speechless
3 mins ago, by sehe
@speeder Well, I don't understand it. I don't recall ever seeing you here, in the C++ sub community of Stack Overflow. How come you jump to an initiative unilaterally, then drop it here to see if we're interested?
@casperOne I don't think so: the problem is still that the FAQ questions are "curated", they're on the list because the "expert" community on SO explicitly gave them the thumbs up, as something of high quality that is useful as a reference. That is not necessarily the same as "all C++ questions which have a million billion views"
"scroll up?" is a bad question and you should feel bad
@jalf Fair enough.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Haha. Slow poke
16:17
Ok, I'm out. Thank you for the feedback. Also for the low (non existence) amount of Hitlers thrown about.
@jalf the concern there then becomes "who are you to decide what is good and what is not". but the answer, frankly, is us. it just is. I know that goes against, like, things. but it is true.
@casperOne Only one, I think.
@casperOne Oh! You went there! Bloody delete Nazi.
@EtiennedeMartel The one on the starboard?
@EtiennedeMartel Off-by-one-error.
16:18
@casperOne but something like that list could be made, and built into the site, instead of relying on a tag. A "FAQ" list (or "curated questions", or heck, even "community wiki") could be built-in like that, and users (with lots of rep in a relevant tag) could vote to FAQ-ify, just like they can vote to close today...
@casperOne Sorry about that. See topic change. It won't happen again.
@casperOne But she's a notorious troll, so it was to be expected.
@jalf I dunno about vote to FAQ. people upvote all kinds of bullshit
@casperOne Thanks for asking us.
Just to let you know, there's no immediate plans to do anything about the faq tags. So don't think that there's an impending date where they'll just disappear. You'll hear about it if we considered taking any action against them. We might make a meta post and get rid of the other ones, but mention the specific reasons the C++ one exists but it's not a good reason for "android-faq" to exist.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Weigh the votes by rep|activity
16:19
I feel that this was very constructive, even if nothing really new was said
@jalf I'll try to talk to some of the core Q&A people, or put a meta post together.
@sehe And neither are inherently a good indicator of expertise
The problem I suppose is that.. well, nothing is.
@sehe I didn't even realize the topic, I was just being funny. I've not always been welcome in this room (I might not even be now), but at least there aren't torches and pitchforks now!
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Better than weighing the reddit flock equally
@casperOne Oh, nobody is welcome in this room.
16:21
@LightnessRacesinOrbit NP, it was the point to get feedback
@LightnessRacesinOrbit suppose you had to have a [c++] gold badge to get the option to vote for FAQ-ifying a question tagged C++? Anyway, it's just a rough outline of a possible suggestion. I'm pretty sure a lot more tweaking would be necessary. :)
@casperOne I gathered that when you came in asking for feedback
@jalf That's edging closer
And if any of you want moderator input for anything (doubtful, but perhaps a feature request if you come up with a great idea), feel free to ping me.
@casperOne I changed the topic when I noticed everyone so meekly and constructively expressing their concern and skepticism. That called for a celebration
Laters all.
16:21
Cheers
@jalf Actually, I do like that. It's hard to get to gold simply by repwhoring, and then you've still got the vote aspect to protect against the odd person-who-got-lucky-through-Reddit upsetting the system
@sehe and fuck you too. ;)
also <insert yo momma joke here>
@casperOne How about a system that sends me money every day? Just me
@jalf Good morning :)
@jalf Flesh this out, ping me if you don't want to write a feature request, I'll do it for you.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I have one. I built it from the idea in "Superman III"
16:22
Woot. Synergy
@casperOne there were no ideas in Superman III
@casperOne well, feel free. It's not something I've thought about at all. :)If you think there's potential in "something along those lines", go ahead and elaborate on it. :)
@jalf I can help with this too. It's a good idea. Capture it. Don't be a lobster.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You don't remember? Richard Pryor took all the fractional cents that were discarded from rounding errors and had them deposited in his account. He made billions (or lots of millions, I can't recall).
They then used that as the basis for the whole plot of "Office Space".,
@casperOne I was joking ;P all the ideas in Superman III were bad ones
16:23
@casperOne I probably won't do so, since it doesn't really solve the problems I see with the FAQ. But it might be a way around the problems you see with it. So the ball is in your court, I guess :)
right, can we go back to insulting each other now please?
@jalf I'm talking about the larger reference material issue. Not relating to the faq tag specifically. But if it solves that problem, then so be it. If it's just a great feature request, I'm really happy with that.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Tar in kryptonite. Horrible.
@casperOne ah, that. Yeah, I'm not sure. I muttered something about that a long time ago on meta, and it got howled down. Maybe I just worded it badly, and maybe I should give it another shot, but I usually try to avoid meta. :)
Laters all, and thanks again.
@jalf If you round up the salient points in here for me, I'll put it up and take all the glory (or all the agony).
@thecoshman sigh. I'm supposed to recompile OpenGL 3.1
16:27
@casperOne I'll see what I can do. No promises. But at least I've seeded the idea with you now. Maybe one morning you'll wake up and know exactly how it should work. :)
and now, I'm heading home. Have fun, al
0
Q: Special handling for FAQ questions

Lightness Races in OrbitThis came out of a discussion in the C++ lounge today with @casperOne regarding the long-term viability of keeping the c++-faq meta-tag around. Please help me to flesh it out. The problems: meta-tags are bad C++, possibly uniquely, does need this sort of thing though collections of "authoritat...

^ This is a fucking mess and should be deleted. But at least the topic is raised.
SimCity has gone gold! Only 13 days before release.
@EtiennedeMartel the 80s called and they want their news back....
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I mean the new one.
Because numbers are so 2011.
oh god really? :(
16:36
Yeah. SimCity 5 is actually called SimCity.
that's retarded
game looks good, though
In the same way that Command and Conquer Generals 2 is actually called Command and Conquer.
can you run people over in it?
(and if not, why not?)
Run people over in what?
16:41
SimCity 5 disappoints me.
Needs internet all the time.
That is stupid
@EtiennedeMartel I tried to install SimCity 4 again, but the graphics go all flickery in hardware rendering mode, and the thing randomly crashes every 30 minutes or so in software mode :(
@speeder Oh, no, don't tell me you're the kind of person who hates stuff on principle?
Because I don't know about you, but I'm always online.
I am
Why does it need internet all the time? I hate that
Etinne no, I hate stuff that don't work on Brazil ;)
@EtiennedeMartel I'm not and I'm seriously pissed off
16:43
Almost as much as I hate downloading an 800KB installer to then find out that it's one of those "live installers" that you can't archive away in E:\Software\Installers for use at any convenient time, because the code is on the web and you have to then let the installer do its downloading (bypassing any prefered system you may have for downloading large files onto your computer) any time you want to run it
~live installers~
Anyway, I'm gonna be playing SimCity exclusively with my friends.
alone ?
You know, most of the world DON'T live near stable broadband connections.
yeah but most of EA customers do
that's the difference
16:44
@Cicada (Pssst, SimCity is published by EA)
yeah I had a doubt
shitty policy, must be EA
(I know in France people kinda think Ubisoft is the only publisher in existence, but still)
@EtiennedeMartel no, fuck you
@Cicada what do you mean?
16:46
game needs ogl 3.1
my gpu has 2.0
otherwise it built fine
Time to upgrade your GPUuuu
no
time to update mesa
@Cicada ah yes, we want to use fancy stuff :P you getting a runtime error?
if a thread crashes that holds a lock on named mutex in windows, is there a way to release the lock on the mutex?
16:51
I seem to recall reading somewhere that it is not possible to release a mutex held by a thread that for whatever reason has exited and not released the lock
o_O
Woops, passed out for a few hours.
moths
@ThePhD as you do
16:52
@thecoshman yeah
Muths.
@TonyTheLion no but all other waits on the mutex will fail
Rubs face.
Well.
Now that I'm back in the land of the living.
I was doing something important...
... Map?
... Level! I was trying to make a level.
16:54
what
me and @EtiennedeMartel are going to make a cool website
Sounds like fun.
called The Code Suppository
@TonyTheLion Here (see WAIT_ABANDONED)
like a democratic, rapid-fire, low-noise version of thedailywtf's codesod tag
You'll get to use all that PHP knowledge you licked off the floor.
2
16:55
yeah :D :D
and you know what? I'm going to put advertisements on it.
because I'm not a whiny liberal student any more
And make billiions~
Also, I apologize. You didn't lick that PHP knowledge off the floor. You did earn a gold badge in it after all.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It needs lots of brown.
@Cicada saying along the lines of 'you need 3.1, but you have x.x'
@Cicada see what glxinfo | grep openGL says
17:01
@EtiennedeMartel okay
is that you being racist about where most of the shite code will have originated? :P
damn you dead keys!
you have wound me up too much! I will end you!
@ScottW (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
the mood! I am not in it!
FREEDOM!
TIL /Wall on MSVC makes me sad
17:23
@ScottW /Ceiling -> happiness.
has anybody here used cling?
s/i/a/ ?
Is TC++PL a good book?
Xeo
Xeo
@Borgleader "cling" CERN's C++ interpreter
17:29
AFAIK, cling=interpreteted clang. There may be cleng/clong/clung stuff as well :
@Xeo Ohhhh, hadn't heard of it.
@speeder stackoverflow.com/questions/388242/… See for yourself.
Guys, I just made a mindmap for the vector class in C++
Tell me what you think! :D
@GamesBrainiac I think I don't know what a mindmap is
@MooingDuck : Just take a look at the link, and tell me if you think its any good when it comes to explaining what a vector is
in C++
I can't view it big without downloading it?
what's the "assignment problems" about?
17:38
@thecoshman I already did that WHO DO YOU THINK I AM and it says 2.0
@GamesBrainiac The real question is "who's the target audience?"
@MooingDuck Click the "+" near the top of the page.
@GamesBrainiac Also, I dislike everything in "iteration".
@GamesBrainiac iterator is similar to a pointer, but isn't always a pointer.
@JerryCoffin : No one really. I just want to know what you think. But if it had to be someone who was new to C++
@Cicada : Why saD?
@MooingDuck : Will fix that.
17:39
@GamesBrainiac Also "adding too much can be slow" is misleading.
Anything else anyone wants to add?
@Cicada well thank you. I did think you would have a better GPU you then that though
@thecoshman Linux on my laptop. But it should certainly support 3.1
@GamesBrainiac note that it can be but is not required to be a pointer. MSVC has it not be a pointer in debug, but I think it's a pointer in release.
@MooingDuck : Well it is true. If you want too much space, and since it requires consecutive memory
17:40
@GamesBrainiac The problem is that to really mean much, you need to decide who you're explaining things to, so you can explain in terms they (probably) already understand.
@GamesBrainiac no, allocation doesn't slow down, it just fails.
I can make it run live on my desktop though, brb
@Cicada oh yes please :)
@GamesBrainiac except for paging, but that has nothing to do with vector, and everything to do with simply using a lot of memory.
okay
so lets have a crowd sourced mind map
17:41
@GamesBrainiac in fact, for large amounts of data, vector uses less memory than any other structure.
@GamesBrainiac lol
I've always wanted to try that
@GamesBrainiac it's all pretty good though, these are relatively minor nitpicks
So @MooingDuck : I want to make it the best it can be. Lets see if we can start something liek this
@GamesBrainiac we have tried using live colab' editors here before, doesn't end well
17:42
live colab?
oh, i see
but lemme just ask
of all the info about vector class
how would you classify it?
I classified it my way, what way would be best to you guys?
@GamesBrainiac As usual, the major improvements (IMO) would be in taking things away. Remove almost everything about iteration -- iterators should be treated separately. Remove the part about "adding too much becomes slow" (it's misleading at best).
@thecoshman : You can always try again! :D I want to make C++ easy and accessible. So, I guess this is my way of doing it
@JerryCoffin : So, should I just say that there is a data limit
@GamesBrainiac easy and accessible is not an ideal that everything should aim for
@GamesBrainiac what you have is a good start, don't scrap it
SCRAP IT
17:44
@Cicada : lol
@GamesBrainiac Probably not -- there's not necessarily a limit other than what's imposed by the target machine (i.e., available virtual memory).
@GamesBrainiac ignore cicada, she's trolling you
@GamesBrainiac an arguably higher limit than any other data structure in the library.
I'd take a look at the diagram posted (but not originated, AFAIK) by one of our regulars: stackoverflow.com/a/6215999/179910
@MooingDuck oh come on
Many of its characteristics can be deduced from that.
17:46
@JerryCoffin : But does vector not have to be on a continuous memory block?
@thecoshman okay i'm transfering the build on a live key and booting on my desktop pc
@GamesBrainiac it does have to be
@MooingDuck Cicada troll? I can't believe that. It must be a mistake.
Also, another cool piece of info...why is it called a vector?
Of all things, why "vector"
why not something like "ultraArray" :P
@Cicada o_0 you make it sound like such work, but thanks either way :D
17:48
brb
@GamesBrainiac Yes, it does -- but reallocation follows a geometric progression, so it happens less and less often as the vector grows, so the time spent reallocating tends to a constant.
@JerryCoffin : I see. That makes sense. The professor on Education.com actually said that it takes more time
@GamesBrainiac because it sorta kinda reminded someone of the math behind how mathematical vectors work. In reality, there's no correlation.
@MooingDuck : A bit like java and javaScript! :P
@GamesBrainiac each reallocation takes more time, but it does it less often as well. On average, it's constant.
@GamesBrainiac right
17:50
@GamesBrainiac Engineers using FORTRAN typically referred to 1D arrays as vectors (and 2D arrays as matrices).
@JerryCoffin : I see. Well, I will come back with the improvements, and show it to you guys again
@JerryCoffin so is a 0D array an array?
@thecoshman 0D is a "variable".
@JerryCoffin perhaps
@JerryCoffin Matlab folks think the same way
17:53
@JerryCoffin : Looking @LightnessRacesinOrbit's post again. It really is something awesome
@thecoshman Hmmm....more typical boss response: "I'll schedule you for more unpaid overtime, until you have neither the time nor energy to drink."
3
@JerryCoffin indeed
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm talking about shit.
@EtiennedeMartel well, you are (close enough to being) French
hahahaha
uuuuuu
17:58
@Cicada : Eh?
¬_¬ hit your head love?
There are any good C++ certification?
oh right, the French comment :P

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