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04:09
Sale is on now! 0.0% off!
"AU"?
Is that Australia?
Yes, but it's still zero percent off regardless the currency.
True
I think everybody should only use the ISO 4217 currency codes.
04:30
When you travel $ alone becomes very misleading because you have no idea what currency it is in.
I suggest we use 6 months old hens as currencies, like 89 hens for 1 macbook :p
04:54
It comes automatically with interest in the form of eggs >_<
 
4 hours later…
 
1 hour later…
kzs
kzs
10:25
I am basically optimizing the library, that can avoid copy as much as possible.
suppose if I am doing like below:
unordered_map mappie.insert(std::makepair<std::string, uint8> ("l1", uin8_ptr)

does it do deep copy of entire elements of uin8_ptr or just map the ptr ?
I am not sure I will be able to understand if i go through the documents, sorry.
 
2 hours later…
12:38
@ScarletAmaranth no, nobody uses OpenCL really because support for it is absolute garbage
@Mgetz good luck explaining to court that support for OpenCL is garbage and as such, nVidia has to open CUDA up
well the courts did get the IE situation
I don't think that's too related to be honest
12:52
as much as I hate to admit it you're probably right, OpenCL/Vulkan compute is doing "Well enough" that Nvidia can make the fingers-crossed-behind-the-back claim they have no competition
13:13
For what it's worth this has been fairly standard in many financial applications for awhile. It's basically using fixed point. You can also go down to the mill if you want to and still handle absurd amounts of money — Mgetz 18 secs ago
13:25
13:48
@kzs If you're trying to reduce copying, you typically want to start by using emplace rather than insert. Passing a pointer to uint8 where the function wants a uint8 (rather than a pointer to one) simply won't compile.
 
1 hour later…
kzs
kzs
15:09
oh, yes there was a mistake with syntax, i was trying to do this:
unordered_map mappie.insert(std::makepair<std::string, std::vector<uint8>> ("l1", std::vector<uint8_t>(uptr, uptr+ len *sizeof(uint8_t).

so replacing with emplace would be better than insert to avoid copy time ?
If you want 0 copies then maybe vector is not what you want
but something like span, buffer-view or whatever you want to call it
An easier to to implement strategy is to have underlying buffers std:array<vector<T>> and then use non-owning pointers in the strucutres, std::map<std::string,vector<T>*>
seems reasonable enough it the number of buckets is fixed
kzs
kzs
regarding span, i am suppose to use not more than c++14.
preferable c++11
shouldn't stop you from implementing span yourself
15:17
you don't need to use the std:: version, there's plenty of other implementations of the concept around
If its not fixed you can replace std::array<vector<T>> with std::vector<vector<T>>, the motivation is that many of us don't have the resources to debug accidental deep copies (or need to pre-allocate, etc).
kzs
kzs
ok, let me try implementing myself from any available sources, thanks for the headsup,

time being, I will check any improvements with std::unordered_map<std::string,vector<vector T>*>
15:49
personally I'd go with std::unordered_map<enum, for better type safety
@Mgetz hahaha
@Mysticial Yeah processor groups will catch people out
still amused that he thought OMP would somehow scale to 4 sockets well...
@Mgetz Can't wait for all the devs when they switch to Zen 2 TR.
All those shared memory programmers are gonna be in for a rude awakening in the next few years. At least on Windows.
@Mysticial apparently there is a scheduler update in the works, but the difference is worse than NUMA but better than multi-socket
15:55
Myself included, except that I first hit it years ago.
@Mysticial I don't think windows is treating them as processor groups though... or are you referring to threadripper?
@Mgetz The scheduler update won't have any effect on the processor groups.
which actually looks like one die now
@Mgetz Core count in general.
@Mysticial Why only windows? I'm a bit out of it and confused
15:56
@Mgetz Only Windows has the processor group restriction. Linux doesn't.
So Linux allows all-to-all.
True, windows mostly does it so that devs have an easier way to manage that sort of NUMA situation though
even if it makes it harder in some aspects
My guess is that MS decided that it's easier to make the scheduler if they restrict to 64 per scheduling group. (since you can bitscan a 64-bit integer or something).
And that any application that needs more than 64 compute threads will be smart enough to manually use multiple processor groups.
yeah right
@Mysticial Lol Threadripper on that one...
But a big part of the argument is that once you go beyond 64, you will be forced to do special optimizations anyway due to lack of locality.
I hope they assign the whole of a die to the same group
15:59
Welcome to processor groups, windows won't let any one process cross onto multiple processor groups. This means any one process is restricted to a single socket in effect. It looks like you can override that behavior but have to be explicit in doing so. — Mgetz 10 mins ago
What do you mean by "override"? OpenMP has an option to do that?
@Mysticial Threadripper kinda breaks that but also kinda doesn't I don't think die to die will cost anymore. That said cache wise you'll have fun
Or Windows?
Windows, per the article linked. You have to explicitly set the processor to use both and then explicitly crate threads on the non-core group
Basically OMP is out
@Mgetz You can set the affinity to more than one processor group?
The API takes a struct with two numbers: 1 processor group # and a bitmask for cores in that group.
16:02
> On a system with more than 64 processors, the affinity mask must specify processors in a single processor group.
Derp
> If a thread is assigned to a different group than the process, the process's affinity is updated to include the thread's affinity and the process becomes a multi-group process. Further affinity changes must be made for individual threads; a multi-group process's affinity cannot be modified using SetProcessAffinityMask.
sorry just should have linked that
the system does it for you
but you do have to handle it yourself after that point it looks like
I basically had to hack my thread pool by round-robin'ing the group affinities for each thread and then using random dispatch.
which is what it looks like is required
Not perfect as there will be load imbalance that can't be fixed due the inability of the OS to migrate threads across groups.
The expectation seems to be that if you need to have multiple groups you already have complicated enough threading to deal with it manually
16:07
My thread pool is still a "dumb" pool in that it doesn't try to load balance.
@Mysticial kinda garbage you can't just create a threadpool per group
But at these sizes (100s of cores), the locality thing becomes real. So I'm not going to try to build a super-smart thread pool just for Windows. The algorithm needs to actively partition to exploit locality.
@Mgetz Forgot that I have hammer.
Been a while since I've duped anything on SO.
The hack in the solution here:
1
A: OpenMp doesn't utilize all CPUs(dual socket, windows and Microsoft visual studio)

MarvgSo answering my own question with thanks to @AlexG for providing some insight. Please see comments section of question. This is a Microsoft Visual Studio and Windows problem. First read Processor Groups for Windows. Basically, if you have under 64 logical cores, this would not be a problem. On...

is one of the many reasons why I've created my own abstraction layer for this shit.
But I have a feeling that people are just gonna prefer to shit on Windows with this processor group thing as another reason to promote Linux.
@Mysticial probably but if you want really good perf on linux you basically have to recreate it yourself
@Mgetz Yeah. I've been working on-and-off on a "multi-region" abstraction for my Pi program.
Basically partitioning up the compute space to achieve locality.
@Mysticial honestly kinda surprised they don't have an opt in processor groups system
16:15
The all-to-all shared memory thing just doesn't work anymore.
NUMA broke that
kinda by definition
One of the bigger fundamental problems that I have yet to figure out is how to do load balancing on multi-region computation. Memory isn't shared across regions because they are either on remote NUMA nodes so it's slow to access, or they may be in completely separate region-local caches.
My conclusion so far is that it's unsolvable in the general case. But in my case, I have significant control over the computational algorithms to do optimal static partitioning to minimize the balancing that's needed.
graph coloring with the computations and minimize the migrations
well not graph coloring but multi knapsack stuffing
@Mysticial basically you have to treat it more like MPI than standard computing
16:24
@Mgetz pretty much.
Except that MPI is a bit too low-level to be usable for really complicated applications.
So I'm trying to create something that sits in-between that relies heavily on out-of-core computing methods.
Ironically I think this is one area GPGPU is doing well in managing. Because if you know every CU is X by Y you just plan for it and submit jobs for that
The application will work directly with the API only. But the API itself may end up being implemented with MPI or just the network stack.
Great... y-cruncher cluster edition
@Mgetz It's still along way out. But I'll probably be building it right into the normal binary.
coming soon y-cruncher the crypto currency
16:28
So you'd launch the program on a ton of different machines in "slave mode".
Then launch a master process and pass it the IP addresses of all the slaves.
for every new digit of pi you get 1 ycrunchcoin
lolno
@Mysticial you could actually have the master process manage that to some extent
The computational code only needs to worry about partitioning work across the regions and any out-of-core access involved with that. Let the framework deal with the distribution and any aggressive caching that's needed to exploit any hierarchical locality of the system.
or the y-cruncher botnet
16:31
@ratchetfreak y-cruncher at home
fuck this, lol
just teasing
I could see someone running a y-crunch cluster on a bunch of rPis just for the bragging rights of calculating pi digits on a Pi
17:21
@ratchetfreak Need to physically arrange the cluster of Pis into a Pi shape.
@JerryCoffin You overworked your crust, and you have a soggy bottom
17:44
@Mgetz How dare you make such an accusation? My crusts are at least as flaky as I am!
@JerryCoffin Insert Paul Hollywood here
I swear there are people that just roam the site upvoting stuff
like this
1
Q: How do i avoid unordered_map crash

kyunonI Have declared unorder map as Below typedef std::unordered_map<std::string, std::string> unorder_map; I am doing normal insert and read into and from the above unorder_map. I see core some time as below : Runtime crash std::__1::unordered_map<std::__1::basic_string<char, std::__1::char_traits<

haha. two upboats
maybe socks?
@Mysticial don't think so
18:00
@Mysticial Who upvotes that shit, seriously?
Upvoting a shit question should make you lose rep.
@EtiennedeMartel lol socks :)
18:17
Tomorrow I'll have everything to setup my new comp, except I'm still missing a computer case
apparently it won't fit in my old ATX comp as I bought an E-ATX MB that is 0.5 inches wider than space is available
open air FTW
what mobo?
Asus Prime x399-A
oh woah
not gonna wait for Zen 2 TR?
I guess not as I have TR 2920x already
is it on a different socket?
They haven't officially announced Zen 2 TR yet. But everybody assumes it's the same socket.
18:23
if it's the same socket then cool, the 2920x is only 560$ so it's really inexpensive in my opinion for what it is
compared to around 2000$ for 2990x
I only bought 16gb ram currently as I really don't need more but I plan to upgrade to 32gb later with 2 more stick. So I can take advantage of the 4 channel (but I'm suspicious on how it will help exactly)
What do you plan on doing on it?
Zen2 TR is going to be nuts, but honestly at the lower end 3900x or 3950x will fill that gap
I plan to do mostly comiling code and work. But some of the work I do are usually single threaded so.. memory could help but if I ever use as much as 16gb it really means something is wrong somewhere
I overrun 60GB when I compile my shit. lol
But I plan to keep using gentoo, so I might see some improvement there
I saw a post somewhere TR gentoo setup building LLVM in 3min
open air was a possibility but how do you hold the MB in place?
I thought about cutting the case with my angle grinder to remove the HardDrive walls so the MB can fit the case
18:52
@Mgetz Who's that?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Set it on a (fairly) level surface, and gravity holds it in place.
Paul John Hollywood (born 1 March 1966) is an English celebrity chef and television presenter, best known for being a judge on The Great British Bake Off. He began his career at his father's bakery as a teenager and went on to serve as head baker at a number of hotels around Britain and internationally. After returning from working in Cyprus, Hollywood began appearing in guest spots on a number of British television programmes on both BBC and ITV. Although Hollywood's broadcast career began with food programming he has since branched out into other genres, including motoring. == Early life,... ==
@JerryCoffin Wouldn't it risk overheating under it?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Might be easier to just cut the mobo with a band saw.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix You do usually want to use normal mobo standoffs under it. If you're really worried about heat, stack the standoffs a couple or three high (at least with old ones, pretty easy since they screw together).
19:07
@JerryCoffin testbench?
@Mysticial so GN got a 3900X to 5ghz under LN2
@Mgetz I usually just sit it on the mobo box itself with a static-mat. IOW, elevated off the table since the PCI cards will hang below. And aim a room fan on it.
19:31
@Mysticial yeah people occasionally use the static bag and wonder why they fry it
Also here you do ostensibly want some sort of faraday around a computer
@Mgetz Not the static bag. But one of those rubber static mats.
@Mysticial oh I know mine was a comment off of yours
Found one of mine:
The box is under the mobo.
@Mysticial Mad props for the vintage 2000 PS/2 gateway keyboard... my father had one of those until I gave him one of my mechanicals
@Mgetz That one is USB.
It's also a USB hub, so I can stick a mouse into it as well.
Which is why I've kept it all these years.
19:39
ah ok, yeah that must be the same plastics
Here's my other one:
where did you get that anti static mat?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix My dad gave it to me.
He has a laboratory at home.
@Mysticial nice four phase VCore on that...
side note: you testing Ryzen 3k? and x570?
19:47
My computer room can almost be considered a laboratory. But his is one for real since there's he have one of those two level benches filled with fiber optics and oscilloscopes.
@Mgetz That's actually the one of the shittiest motherboards. No VRM sinks. I ended up replace it with something else later.
@Mgetz That was Zen 1. On launch night.
@Mysticial oooh and discrete MOSFETs... yeah that was probably quite toasty...
Ended up replacing it with:
I guess I can work something out while the case arrives, the mobo does have a power button so it's pretty cool for that
@Mysticial I don't think gigabyte uses discrete MOSFETs on any of their boards, PowIR stages yes, I think some of their super cheap stuff uses DrMOS chips but they are still integrated and easier to cool.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I just take a screwdriver to the power pins.
19:52
wouldn't be easier to use a jumper to short them?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Nah, too small for my fingers to handle.
anyway I guess it would turn the power off
it's not the same as shorting the pins for the ATX connector
Looks like that Zen 1 was the last build where I did open air first.
I didn't do it for either of my Skylake builds. Mostly because a 360 radiator is unwieldy.
Lol surprised this didn't happen sooner nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/…
@Mysticial there are testbenches with rad mounts
@Mgetz I don't do this stuff enough to get a real test bench.
19:57
newegg.com/p/…-9SIA9AB4R42472--Product
But now I do have a spare 360 rad which I can use for test setups.
Speaking of Zen 2. This is the only X570 mATX mobo I can find: newegg.com/p/N82E16813157887
No RGB. Though it does have RGB headers.
Cheaper and prettier.
@JerryCoffin And insulating.
20:05
@Mysticial don't buy it... the Discrete MOSFETs... it'll handle stock just fine but any overclocking and that will overheat
but it's Mahogany
I think Gigabyte has an ITX which is better
@Mysticial ...when dry.
Honestly unless you need PCI-e 4.0... you can just get x470
@Mgetz ...and if you do need PCIe 4, you're probably better off waiting a generation or two so they actually get it right.
20:07
@Mgetz I usually do active VRM cooking if needed. But why are discrete midgets worse?
@JerryCoffin apparently they are fully conformant... just VERY power hungry
@Mysticial resistance gate to source is high and they take FOREVER (comparatively to a Smart Power Stage) to switch
a SPS can and does switch at 500MHz
those generally are in the 200MHz range at best
any faster and they burn a LOT more power
it's why if you look those boards have two low side MOSFETs and a high side MOSFET
so they can burn less power by working in parallel
not bad VRMs per se... just not what you'd want if you're overclocking at all. The SPS boards aren't that much more expensive and are much more efficient and easy to cool. They also have things like OTP and OCP built in.
Yeah I'd guess that VRM will max out at the same as the ATX variant at around 200W
SPS boards?
where the better VRMs on x570 will easily handle 600 (you won't get there except under LN2)
that's an example
What visual should I look for on a mobo to know whether it’s discrete or integrated?
@Mysticial Look at the VRM if you see multiple chips behind the chokes that's discrete, if you see a lot of little square chips one behind each choke that's integrated
Example of integrated:
oddly also x570... and dissipation numbers
Discrete:
20:19
Ah
Might be harder to spot with a VRM sink.
you can just google naked board shots of that motherboard
AFAIK the only boards in x570 with discrete is the ASUS pro series boards
which as I said... it's not a bad VRM... just don't overclock on that board
The mATX I linked is Asrock.
looks like SPS actually sorry I thought that was the Asus MAtx
@Mgetz "Fully conforming" == "nobody's found any bugs yet" :-|
tbf that's a fine board it is 8 stage VRM but it does use doublers
20:27
Lol no worries. It still lacks RGB.
so transient response time could be a bit long but if that's a worry there are other options
@JerryCoffin PCI-E is apparently a pretty brutal cert.. almost all the boards are six or eight layer PCBs apparently this time
all the six layer boards only have one slot at 4.0
No RGB on mobo can be partially solved with external RGB. But doesn't look that great. But it does look like the only X570 mATX.
Only 2 ram slots.
Otherwise, I'd be all over the mITX boards.
The only mITX boards I've found with 4 DIMMs are:
@Mgetz I'm sure it does, but I've used enough of both hardware and software to have at least some concern that even the most careful testing in the lab will miss something that shows up (often fairly quickly) in real life.
@JerryCoffin I think the good news is that AMD has had parts to test with in circulation so I suspect that helped
That said are here any parts that actually push it to the limit.... NOPE
@Mysticial That's not a motherboard... it's a small highly toxic fire starter
@Mgetz Why the fuck does it have a VGA port?
@Mysticial server
I don't think TR has iGPU does it?
20:36
@Mgetz That's not TR, that's Intel's big socket.
No iGPU.
Which is why I'm confused.
oh that's BMC
Maybe that tiny chip behind the VGA is the GPU.
it's in the block diagram on Anandtech
it's not a GPU
@Mgetz Undoubtedly. I suppose in the end, I just take a fairly conservative approach to motherboards. When I build a machine, I expect it to last a long time. Counting backwards from my current machine, I get to a Pentium III before I run out of fingers on one hand...
@JerryCoffin in terms of computers I've personally built.. I'm on five fingers
20:42
Can't wait to see ASRock put Cascade Lake AP on a mini ITX.
What's that the KL replacement?
@Mgetz I'd have a hard time counting if I tried to go back to the very beginning. I'm not ever sure what counts in some cases--like when I added a Z80 to a Commodore 64. Or when I designed little CPUs that have only ever run on an FPGA.
@Mgetz It's two of the 28-core dies glued together.
BGA-5903
@JerryCoffin did you actually build it... so if you had an Apple 1 kit that would count, but an Apple II wouldn't
@Mysticial lol... that's going to be an expensive fire
wow.. 400W TDP
@Mgetz The Commodore 64 was a complete, working computer. The Z80 was a separate card with its own CPU that basically disabled the CPU on the mobo, and just used the memory and peripherals on the host machine.
20:49
how are they intending for people to cool that, Cryo pumps?
@JerryCoffin for me everything prior to my P4 machine was pre-built or my father owned
@Mgetz I foresee some seriously loud fans...
@Mgetz Wouldn't it be cheaper and more convenient to use a chrome book and an AWS server over building your own rig, aside from it being a hobby?
@JerryCoffin I don't think fans are going to cut it at 400W... they'd have to watercool at a minimum
@Rick maybe... if you don't actually use your computer for anything
@Mgetz Submerge it in Lake Vostok and watch the sea levels rise.
I game
20:52
oh, that makes sense.
@Mysticial that IHS is what... 4 square inches... so 100W per square inch... and you and I both know it won't actually be that. It'll be 200W in a square inch right in the center. Best case you use watercooling and have a block with a double loop system to have double feed maybe?
Yeah... if you don't lap that thing to get better contact too, yikes
@Mgetz X299 can pull > 1 kW overclocked. The LGA3647 can probably do 1.5 - 2 kW before the socket melts. BGA-5903 would be double that: 3 - 4 kW.
That's amazing.
@Mysticial yeah... under LN2
but under actually useful load... it tends to top out lower at about 600-800 last I checked
and even that's going to be a royal pain to cool
Run 56 cores @ 5 GHz AVX512.
which board?
because that'll probably trip OCP on most boards during ramp
20:58
Custom build your board. lol
well the gigabyte board for that socket is designed for that
it's designed to deliver 1.2Kw last I checked
in an actual factual 32 stage VRM IIRC
For LGA3647 with the w3175x?
@Mgetz Maybe. But I've dealt with some quad-socket Supermicro machines that drew a whole lot of power (and sounded like jets taking off). Not sure how much harder it would be to keep them cool if the power was all in one socket though.
@Mgetz I don't see any RGB on that board.
21:01
@JerryCoffin the issue isn't total heat, it's heat density... you can cool that for about a minute usually before the heatsink saturates and the thermal throttling kicks in
@Mysticial Ok have your crappy 16 phase... asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-Dominus-Extreme
Hold one. The Gigabyte one has 4 RGB headers.
Even though the mobo seems to have no built-in RGB.
@Mysticial They aren't idiots...
better site
RGB on the VRMs?
It's that why it's 32 phase?
16 phase for the RGB?
That's some amazing RGB. :)
@Mysticial it's 32 phase because they wanted to say they could deliver 1600W (they can't) but it can reasonably deliver 1.2Kw
that board is intended for the PIXARs of the world
which need speed and cores... and occasionally RGB
@Mgetz Could well be. As I recall, the machines we used were only (!) around 200W/socket...
21:09
@JerryCoffin GPUs generally can get away with that sort of crap because it's not continuous... it's 600W every couple of ms
but hard load them and the cooling dies VERY VERY quickly as does the ability to buffer the power
CPUs on the other hand don't tend to have that sort of transience (both a good and a bad thing)
@Mgetz This was big Xeons, not GPUs (well, I think some of them had GPUs as well, but what I'm talking about was the CPUs).
@JerryCoffin Yeah those servers also may not be running them at TDP. People don't realize this but the motherboard tells the CPU what the power limit is. The CPU will push that envelope as far as it can on latest intel and AMD parts insofar as thermals will allow
Pretty sure they were older, but roughly on this general order: supermicro.com/en/products/system/4U/8049/SYS-8049U-E1CR4T.cfm
so if you're sitting at thermal limit (most servers do) then most likely you're not actually hitting TDP
@JerryCoffin so if you read the manual they have a pretty obvious disclaimer about "chassis power and thermal limits may reduce your delivered power from TDP" or some such
the obvious clue to me was the lack of dedicated EPS12V for each socket although I assume your system probably had that
@Mgetz I dunno--I was involved in developing some code for them and doing some power measurements on what they drew (necessary for the Green500 entry we were working on) but did my best to stay away from the hardware when I could.
21:24
@JerryCoffin well if you were using that sort of system then CPU draw isn't the primary focus. GPU draw probably was. Those boards aren't really intended to be used as primary compute but rather orchestration
@Mgetz The primary computation was on custom stuff we built, but we kept the CPUs busy just feeding the beasts. We (of course) also cared quite a lot about how much power was being used by the host vs. our stuff though.
What's the strict minimum to boot a computer to bios? is the graphic card necessary if you can ssh to the computer?
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix RGB
2
I do have RGB on the PSU so it should be ok
Then you're all set.
21:56
Auxiliary CPU to run the RGB, and no need for that silly BIOS/UEFI nonsense.
But you can emulate RGB in your BIOS, or at least with newer versions of UEFI have this capability...
@Mikhail Since the BIOS/UEFI is close to the (little-endian) hardware, it emulates RGB using BGR, which all intelligent and right-thinking people realize is inferior and wrong.

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