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7:00 PM
@Ell among many reasons, it knows a lot more context about the code than C++ gives it, so it can preallocate better, and put off deallocation until a later time
 
@TomW I haven't ever worked at a big enough company to use that sort of thing
 
Ell
@MooingDuck oh yeah that makes sense
 
So, we're getting operator(.)(.)()?
 
@Ell With a compacting GC, allocation is fast (basically stack-like). As long as most objects disappear quickly, garbage collection is fast too. What costs, is keeping objects alive for a long time.
 
@vedosity IMHO 2 people is big enough to need an integration platform
 
7:00 PM
@Ell also, Java can move where in objects things are. C++ can't do that. That's a huge part of it
 
Ell
because the OS does that? or, rather, doesn't?
 
@FredOverflow That PDF says that generally Java is faster than C/C++ on two benchmarks... Wut?
 
or rather, benefit from
 
@TomW Hmm, interesting. I'll look into it.
 
I think its main unrecognised benefit is that it leads you to think about how your process works in a general sense
Can you check it out and build it on any machine? If not, why not?
 
7:02 PM
@JimNorton Look more carefully -- it says slower on one, faster on the other. Of course, we all know that's still BS.
 
Can you explain exactly what the failures are in terms of steps that succeeded and steps that failed?
 
@TomW Well I do some volunteer work at a space simulator place. When we first started our method of collaborating code was by flash drives XD Five years later we're finally looking into DVCS
 
Because you have to describe the process to a machine, it forces you to be explicit about what the process is
Oh wow.
Seems to be that in those places, the only way to proceed is to set it up and start doing it
then ask people why they aren't
 
omg lol, it seems it's impossible to really disable exceptions in VC++
 
asking people for buy-in is futile - if they had reasons in their head to agree that it's a good idea, they'd have done it already
 
7:04 PM
@TomW Most of the developers are in high school, its to be expected
The place itself is in an elementary school
 
SPACE CAMP
that film was amazing
 
Christa McAuliffe ... sad story
 
@TomW Never heard of it
 
I was in high school Art class when that disaster happened.
 
I don't think I was born
 
7:07 PM
Probably not me either
 
No, I wasn't
 
When I first started working their, we were also using a scripting language called revolution
 
@TomW I think I'd better leave. I'm apparently older than both of you put together.
 
runtime revolution or something like that
 
Hey, show some respect
when I was in school, it wasn't known whether there were any other planets outside the solar system
 
7:09 PM
My age is the answer to life.
 
that makes me old
something important was discovered in my lifetime
 
@JimNorton Ah, I remember being that young -- barely! :-)
 
@JerryCoffin Lol....
We are probably a few of the older people here.
 
I think C++ started in my lifetime...
so... no, not really that old
but someday I'll be able to say I'm old for that reason ;)
 
@vedosity wasn't standard until what? '98? That's pretty recent
 
7:11 PM
Oh yeah I know
 
@JimNorton Yeah, along with @sbi and @cicada. Don't know of many others in the 40+ category though.
 
@MooingDuck That's why I said that doesn't mean I'm very old. But someday.
 
@MooingDuck ...but it was around for over a decade before that (I first started using it when Turbo C++ 1.0 came out, around '88 or '89 if memory serves). Well, technically I'd played with it a little before that, but not enough to matter much.
 
Age doesn't matter until you can get senior discounts. :-)
 
@JimNorton cops say otherwise
 
7:13 PM
@MooingDuck And that too!
 
@JerryCoffin ...really, @Cicada?
 
@JimNorton There's a long stretch from "old enough to drink" until "senior discounts" when they don't matter much...
 
@MooingDuck So does any company I want to work for that needs me to sign NDA's. Sucks.
 
What depresses me is that I have to provide tech support to technical people in my company old enough to be my parents
 
@SamDeHaan I seem to recall somebody saying she's 51, though I'm not really sure.
 
7:14 PM
and these are people with PhDs in applied mathematical modelling
 
@vedosity Most companies make you sign them.
 
@JimNorton Exactly. I can't sign legally binding documents and have them be... legally binding
 
@JerryCoffin typo. Profile says 21
 
@EtiennedeMartel, it seems you just can't disable exceptions in MSVC, so new will throw bad_alloc
 
@TomW Oh, okay. If that's the case, then definitely not her.
 
7:15 PM
@vedosity Oh... can your parents sign as well to make it binding?
 
Yeah I'm trying to get that worked out with the company I work for now.
 
@Abyx Good.
 
But in two months... Awwh yeah! I don't think I'll ever be so excited to be able to sign contracts.
 
Ell
windoze is irritating me enough to consider switching to java >.<
 
@DeadMG you can disable unwinding, but CRT will still throw exceptions, so it's no good. it's fucking bad, because RAII will be broken
 
7:18 PM
well, they should simply remove the option.
 
@Abyx Really?
 
@DeadMG I (strongly) suspect they use it internally. Part of the Windows kernel is in C++. Doesn't (can't) use the CRT, and probably isn't set up to support exceptions at all.
 
@EtiennedeMartel yep. if you don't specify /EH* option, it will just disable unwinding
 
@Abyx Damn.
 
well, you can hook _CxxThrowException
 
7:23 PM
@Abyx If you don't want exceptions, you can overload new so it'll never throw (or use new(nothrow), if you only need part of the code to not throw).
 
or just patch it with ret intruction at start, or hook kernel32!RaiseException...
 
Disabling exceptions is silly and you're silly.
 
@CatPlusPlus Silly cat.
 
Silly game developer.
 
Technically, I'm a tool developer.
But I don't advocate disabling exceptions.
I'm one of those guys who think that the performance implication of throwing an exception is largely offset by the fact that an exception is exceptional by definition.
 
7:26 PM
Exceptional logic!
 
@EtiennedeMartel I agree -- if you want code to crash and burn quickly..well, I'm pretty sure I can find you a copy of MS-DOS and Turbo C++ that'll let you crash and burn really fast!
 
in Windows, x86-32, exceptions are "slow" just because of SEH frames
 
I hate performance.
 
@Abyx Go x64!
 
It always leads to silly code.
I want my pwetty high-level abstractions.
And perfect code.
Yesssss.
 
7:29 PM
@JerryCoffin don't want, x32 is still OK
 
And fluff. Because you're a cat.
 
In short, use Haskell.
 
Haskell is slow.
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't hate performance. I hate when people use it as an excuse to write crappy code.
 
Haskell is beautiful.
 
7:29 PM
and lazy
 
And wonderful.
 
and unreadable.
 
Bullshit.
 
@Abyx Hmm...on one hand, you complain about its problems, but then turn around and say its fine. Sounds self-contradictory to me.
 
PERFORMANCE code in C and C++ is way less readable than even bad Haskell code.
 
7:30 PM
@CatPlusPlus Purrformance for you.
 
@JerryCoffin I don't care about performance
 
@JerryCoffin Someone said something like "it's amazing how developers take a look at all the advancements in hardware and then disregard them".
 
Ell
Haskell sucks.
 
64-bit the best -bit.
 
I don't ever want to work on 2 bit computer.
 
7:34 PM
@CatPlusPlus While I can see (for example) resistance to the difficulty of writing multi-threaded code, I'm lost as to why anybody would prefer a 32-bit OS. Offhand, I can hardly think of a single advantage, and the few there might be, are so tiny I can't imagine why anybody would care about them.
@JimNorton One that only cost 2 bits might be cool though.
 
vOv
I love me new hardware.
 
@JerryCoffin cheap is good.
usually
maybe
 
And slow, beautiful code.
 
@CatPlusPlus like in Python
 
@CatPlusPlus C++? :-)
 
7:36 PM
In any language.
 
@JimNorton The Brits have a beautiful phrase: "Cheap and cheerful".
 
@JerryCoffin :-) I like it.
 
Ell
cheap as chips... literally :L
 
Hardware is so cheap and fast now that usually we can focus more on maintainability and worry less about performance..
 
@JimNorton One way to play with little CPUs that's a lot of fun is to get a low-end (~$100) FPGA development board, and design a few of your own.
 
7:38 PM
Yesss.
 
@JerryCoffin That sounds like fun..
 
@JimNorton not really, with fast hardware you can do more things per second
 
@JimNorton Been hearing that (and sometimes saying it, to be fair) since the '70s...
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah that's true, and who could ever need more than 64K of memory?
 
@JimNorton That doesn't seem to relate to what he said
 
7:41 PM
@MooingDuck Sure it does.
 
Ell
I dislike the fact everyone calls everyone out in this room :L
 
We are talking about having enough resources...
 
@JimNorton and you said there was enough to not worry about it anymore. You called yourself out
@JimNorton he's teh one who said the available resources kept climbing
 
Ell
@MooingDuck But now you're calling him out on calling himself out. And I'm calling you out on calling him out on calling himself out
 
@MooingDuck i was reading sarcasm in his statement.
 
7:43 PM
@Ell yes, but I have no problem with calling people out
 
@MooingDuck Jerry said the since the 70's people have been saying that CPU's are fast enough... And I pointed how somebody also once said we had enough RAM 64K. How does that relate?
 
@JimNorton you're saying it now, he's saying that it's never been true.
 
meh... with 64K of memory I wrote T table[UINT8_MAX+1], with 1M of memory - T table[UINT16_MAX+1], with 2Gb - T table[0xFFFFFF+1]` and now I want T table[UINT32_MAX].
 
@JimNorton though from that statement, I'm not sure we're disagreeing, I think you were just being confusing
 
@MooingDuck Probably so.
 
7:45 PM
you'll never have enough of memory
 
@MooingDuck I was using that comment to agree with him...
 
@JimNorton ooooooh
 
isn't there some law that software expands to use up all available memory and cpu? :)
 
@cHao Yep
 
@JimNorton well, props for not claiming Bill Gates said it
 
7:46 PM
@MooingDuck I actually thought he did say it? Who did? :-)
 
@JimNorton it's often attributed to gates, but no, he didn't say it. dunno who did. and even as we understand it now, it's a mistranslation
 
NTFS and Boost don't mix too well.
So many leeetle files.
 
Ell
is ntfs outdated compared to ext4 and the mac's latest fs?
 
@CatPlusPlus use PCH ?
 
thought ntfs liked little files. if they're small enough, they actually get embedded into the directory entry or something liek that
 
7:49 PM
I'm talking about filesystem operations involving Boost, not compiling code using Boost.
Like, copying it.
Or deleting.
 
ah... Y U DELETE BOOST?!
 
@JimNorton far as I've been able to find, it just sorta appeared. In 1985, InfoWorld magazine claimed Bill Gates said it, but he denied it.
 
@cHao I don't know. It's slow as fuck.
 
frankly, ntfs has kicked ext*'s ass for some time. it's only lately catching up.
 
@Abyx 45, 47, 48.
I should get rid of 49 and compile 50, but meh, lazy.
 
7:50 PM
+1
 
ext4 is bad with leetle files, I think.
 
@MooingDuck Yeah I'm reading a Wired article that talks about Bill denying he ever said it... Rumours... Dang I thought he really did say it.
 
At least ReiserFS was better than ext3.
 
@CatPlusPlus ReiserFS is good for leetle files.
 
Maybe they made ext4 better in that regard, I haven't used it too extensively.
 
7:51 PM
@JimNorton well, nobody can find any other source, it's possible he did say it, but nobody knows
 
for the longest time ext* didn't even use trees for directory entries...they'd just be in a list/array type deal. past a couple hundred files, going through them would be painfully slow. that's why you see a lot of a/ab/abcdefghijk style directory structures
 
“The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you can't always be sure of their authenticity.” ~ Abraham Lincoln
 
Was Reiser convicted of murder?
I like that Cat.
 
Ell
@JimNorton just about to ask that :L
 
He confessed AFAIR.
 
Ell
7:52 PM
I think he was
 
But the evidence at the end was pretty much enough to get him in jail.
 
Ell
IIRC he told them where the body was
 
To avoid the death penalty or reduced sentence?
 
> In April 2008, Reiser was convicted of the first degree murder of his wife, Nina Reiser, who disappeared in September 2006. He subsequently pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of second-degree murder, as part of a settlement agreement that included disclosing the location of his wife's body, revealed to be in a shallow grave near the couple's home.
 
@MooingDuck Possible, but IMO, quite unlikely.
 
7:54 PM
Amateur .....
Don't leave bodies anywhere near where you live! Duh!
 
psh. amateur. don't leave bodies anywhere, period. wood chippers are your friend.
 
@cHao It didn't use trees, but did use hashing. Worked (and still works) fine for hundreds or even thousands of files.
 
:-)
 
@cHao Nah -- cook 'em up and feed 'em to the police...
 
@cHao Not that I would ever need to, but if I had to get rid of a body, I'd use acid.
 
Ell
7:56 PM
I'd preserve it in formaldehyde
 
@JerryCoffin he did say "I have to say that in 1981, making those decisions, I felt like I was providing enough freedom for 10 years. That is, a move from 64k to 640k felt like something that would last a great deal of time. Well, it didn’t – it took about only 6 years before people started to see that as a real problem." (1989)
 
@Ell amateur.
the point is to get rid of the evidence, not keep it around waiting for csi and nancy drew
 
0
Q: fill right side of stringstream variable with '0' c++

user1310873I have the next code: ofstream dataIndex; dataIndex.open("file"); index="2222"; std::stringstream sstr1; sstr1<<index<<'1'; str1<<setfill('0')<<setw(index.length()-9); string inde...

I can't do math, halp.
 
@JerryCoffin it's also documented that he said they'd never make a 32 bit version of windows.
 
@MooingDuck Fair enough -- and in all honesty, guessing 10 and hitting 6 is doing better than most.
@MooingDuck That, as I recall, was basically saying they'd never port the existing code base to 32 bits. For the most part, that was accurate -- they didn't. They just built a new system that emulated roughly the same API.
 
8:00 PM
@JerryCoffin possibly, I didn't research that one
 
Boredom. Show me a programming language I don't already know.
I want to do something experimental.
 
Do you know Whitespace?
 
Reiser was actually very good at hiding your buried trees.
 
Yes. Esoteric languages are not fun to write.
They're sometimes fun to implement, but too lazy to do that.
 
@MooingDuck I'm not sure, but at least as I recall, he said that while they were working on OS/2, so while things didn't work out exactly as planned, the same basic idea applied.
 
8:02 PM
Why don't you go slumming and write some PHP? :-)
 
@JimNorton Bite you tongue!
 
New languages, please.
 
@JerryCoffin Heresy! I know.
 
FORTRAN!
 
Wide!
 
8:03 PM
@JimNorton No -- Heresy would be more acceptable. That was just tasteless and rude -- much less forgivable.
 
just write your own.
 
Ell
Falcon :D
 
@JimNorton pretty sure Wide's just a language specification. It won't stop him from writing it, but compilling could be hard
 
@JerryCoffin :-)
 
Ell
try writing a programme in wide and then when an implementation comes out see how well you did
 
8:04 PM
@SamDeHaan ...and will remain that way until somebody implements it.
 
@SamDeHaan Yeah, that's my understanding as well. Anybody here actually read any of it?
 
@JimNorton I read part of it, but long enough ago that it's probably all changed by now.
 
Falcon didn't catch my interest last time, and it didn't this time, either.
 
@JerryCoffin Isn't DeadMG going to implement it also?
 
@JimNorton I think that's his plan. Not so sure how likely it is to really happen though.
 
8:06 PM
@CatPlusPlus, write an implementation of Haskell, if you like it so much
 
Yes, definitely a project for one evening.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm sure it would be a challenge. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do it.
 
You all suck, I'll find some fun on my own. Pssht.
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus write an emulator for something - games console or something
 
I haven't taken a single course on compiler development.
 
Ell
8:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus or write a game for the ouya - in java
 
Courses are for wasting your time. Self-teaching the best teaching.
There's nothing fun about writing Java.
 
Ell
Is a degree a waste of time if you know it already?
 
@JimNorton He strikes me as a little too much of a perfectionist, trying to get everything just right. At some point, you have to stop, decide you can live with it the way it is, and get it done instead of trying to keep improving it. Chances are that when you use it, you'll find that most of what you wanted to improve wouldn't do any good anyway.
@Ell It can help a lot when it comes time to try to get a job.
 
@JerryCoffin That's probably true.
 
Degree is a tool to bump your CV.
Nothing else.
 
Ell
8:09 PM
Well I'm sure it's for learning too
in fact I'm certain
 
sometimes you can get a job without a CV.
 
Ell
I suck at 3d math :( I can't get my character to rotate :/
 
@CatPlusPlus I agree, I'm mostly self-taught. If I need to learn something new, I'm perfectly capable of learning on my own with the foundation I've got.
 
I didn't get much from my education that's for sure.
But I got the degree, that's what counts.
 
@Ell It's mostly a test to see if you're patient enough to deal with large amounts of bullshit involved.
 
8:10 PM
I'm sure I will regret saying this in this room, but I never finished my degree. I managed to get into the field and work my up without one.
 
We hardly care about degrees, if you hadn't noticed.
 
Ell
@JimNorton A lot of people in this room haven't finished their degree, or failed it IIRC
 
@JimNorton Fake it till you make it. Well done bro.
 
I've seen too many PhDs who don't know shit.
 
@JimNorton Why would you regret saying that? I haven't seen anybody saying they think a degree means a whole lot in itself.
 
8:11 PM
It's not an indicator of anything.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, perhaps they know pee.
 
I have a file that crashes, and someone checked a fix into perforce, so I tell perforce get the latest verion. And it says "you're up-to-date!" And I run the code and it crashes. So I tell perforce to show the differences between the checked in version and my version, and it finds no differences. And I run the code and it crashes. Then I open both files myself, and they're completely different. I hate perforce so much.
 
I got the degree ~ for free, the advantages of being good at standardized testing.
 
@MooingDuck Use hg with perfarce to interact with it.
 
@JerryCoffin Ah just because of some of the comments people have made.
Not about degrees
But just in general
 
8:12 PM
(Disclaimer: I don't use Perforce, so no idea if this even works.)
 
@JerryCoffin thecoshman thinks that.
 
@CatPlusPlus True dat! I have friends who did finish, and they suck...
They couldn't write a single line a code that made sense.
Even to save their lives.
 
@JerryCoffin More specifically, I simply realized that I had to actually write down everything that I was thinking because I kept forgetting my proposed rules :P
 
@DeadMG Really? I guess I never noticed.
 
I think you're on different timezones?
 
8:15 PM
@DeadMG Well, yes, there is that too.
 
anyway, I've discussed it with him a few times, and he believes that if you didn't make it through your degree, it shows a fundamental weakness of character which makes you permanently unemployable
 
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure I'm in a different time zone from you anyway. I'm not sure Jim and I are in the same zone, but at least a lot closer...
 
@JerryCoffin True. But since I've been sick, my times when I'm around don't exactly match my TZ.
 
@DeadMG Are you still sick?
 
@DeadMG Sick or well, my times have little to do with my TZ...
 
8:17 PM
yep
@JerryCoffin lol
 
@DeadMG Still the stomach situation?
 
yep
 
Sorry to hear that. What do the doctors say about it?
 
@JimNorton Absolutely nothing of any use whatsoever.
else I wouldn't still be in this situation :P
 
@DeadMG Yish -- that sucks. Even when it's not dangerous, it's just uncomfortable and ruins the fun in life.
 
8:18 PM
well
honestly, I'm not concerned so much about that
more concerned about the probability of finding employment being rather low in my current state.
 
I had a fun week where I had the best stomach bug. I would go to the toilet, empty out of one end, and then have to have a bucket right there to spew out the other end at the same time.
 
@DeadMG Man that sucks....
 
@SamDeHaan TMI.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm in the Pacific TZ..
 
@CatPlusPlus You're welcome!
 
8:21 PM
UTC-8
 
@DeadMG Yeah, interviewing when you look like something a cat vomitted up doesn't go so well. Of course, you probably don't look that bad anyway -- but I look like that even when I'm not sick... :-)
 
lol
 
@JimNorton Yeah -- closer. I'm in Mountain.
 
interviewing won't be the hard part
I just won't put things on my resume that I don't know about
 
@DeadMG Ah, the problem is getting past the HR auto filter.
 
8:22 PM
@DeadMG As it should be.
 
indeed
 
Learning new tools is easy peasy.
 
@DeadMG that doesn't stop people asking you questions you don't know the answer to hough
 
no, but it does mean I can just say "I have no idea." and move on
 
I got horrible Android app to modify two weeks ago, despite never doing Android before.
Except for silly classes.
 
8:24 PM
@DeadMG Hmm...come to think of it, I'm almost tempted to add a "things I don't know and/or would rather not work with" section on my resume.
 
evening again
 
The app is near-suicidal bad, but Android is easy.
 
lol
 
@nightcracker Good afternoon.
 
Apparently I'm now a "trusted user"
 
8:25 PM
Things I know and don't even want to get paid for doing: PHP.
 
You love PHP so much you want to do it for free?
 
lol
 
gtfo
 
8:27 PM
that turned out a tad bigger than I meant
 
You'd get banned from SA.
 
sorry
 
I'm so happy it's Friday. I've had a serious lack of motivation all week. Hopefully, I'll rejuvenate over the weekend and come back full of motivation.
Woah... just had DeJavu from that image.
 
@JimNorton ...and then (as my sister-in-law would say) you woke up!
 
I really should learn Git better.
 
8:30 PM
meh... It's Saturday already
 
yay timezones
 
@JerryCoffin Is it really all just a dream? I'm not caught in the Matrix am I?
 
I have summer holiday, so no stress about the weekend :)
@JimNorton: yes and no
 
@JimNorton I'm not sure. Which pill did you take?
 
@JimNorton: it is a dream, but if you wake up it still is. Inception.
 
8:32 PM
:-)
@nightcracker A dream within a dream!
 
@JimNorton No, but as my tagline used to point out: The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
 
I genuinely love wring code, but some reason this whole week it's been hard for me to really give a shit.
 
@JimNorton Sounds like lack of sex to me.
 
@JerryCoffin Hmmm... no that's not it...
 
@JimNorton Well, maybe somebody else has a better theory. That's my only one.
 
8:36 PM
hey, old guys
 
I'm not old. :<
 
I'm 17
 
dagnabbibt
 
^ noobs
 
@TomW Yes?
 
8:36 PM
@JerryCoffin :-) Thanks for trying.
@TomW What?
 
Men in Black quote, honest
 
@TomW So you believe Men in Black is honest? Sad what the kids nowadays will believe! What's the world coming to? Oh, and get off my lawn!
 
@TomW Do those things still work?
 
Quotes? Yes, usually.
 
Well, I think I'm going to take off for a while and get what little hair I have left shortened a bit... Later all.
 
8:40 PM
@JerryCoffin Cya
 
Woop, I got TortoiseGit.
 
@CatPlusPlus now compare it with thg
 
Thg is the best Tortoise.
This one is based off TortoiseSVN, so it's mostly useful for status icons.
 
0
Q: How to epur a std::string in c++?

kl94I would know the best way and easiest way for epuring a std::string without using boost. For exemple how to transform this string " a b c d e '\t' f '\t'g" in "a b c d e f g" Assuming '\t' is a normal tabulation. Thanks.

 
I need to do improve my logging. std::cout isn't cutting it.
 
8:55 PM
I need to reorganise my filesystem hierarchy.
 
Hierarchy is so outdated.
 
I don't feel safe keeping projects in the same directory as random other people projects.
 
Keep your emotions under control then.
 
Also I could get rid of one directory level.
 
Mesmerize is not a good namespace name.
After working many hours you forget how to pronounce it. It's like a giberrish of words.
 
8:58 PM
Mesmerise, you 'merkin.
 
I should have stuck with Charm.
That was simple.
Is boost.log part of official boost?
 

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