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12:14 AM
Nvm, looks like a mod wiped most of it. And I never saved a screenshot.
 
There are two types of people who purposely get very close to forest fires - those who try to extinguish the fire, and those who just want to watch the forest burn.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Sounds like starting an unnecessary conflict.
 
12:31 AM
Also unless your boss knows you, you might appear to be lacking of confidence.
I, on the other hand, tend to be over-confident.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:35 AM
@Mysticial RIP
 
@Borgleader The very first comment posted was mine. And it was something along the lines of:
> Oh noes, somebody on the internet is swearing... SCR
 
The next comment was the OP's which is preserved above.
After that all hell broke loose.
I posted something like, "Wow, this is hilarious. Apologies if I offended you. If you're really that bad at detecting jokes/sarcasm, I can't really help you."
That was my last comment.
 
P sure you called out a mod selectively deleting comments ;)
 
15 comments later. The comment thread (continued by others) had devolved into censorship, racism, basically... the next closest thing to Godwin's Law.
 
1:44 AM
Vulgarity is cultural. In some countries you can't show faces of women.
Is asking shit questions on meta some kind of game?
-25
A: The Quality of C++ Questions

MikhailThis solution isn't C++ specific, but I think commonly used languages, especially those that are popular in the academic setting simply need higher standards that might be dismissed for other languages. We should actively reconsider positions on things like: Geographic regions that are frequen...

Lol, some people voted to delete my answer...
Reading some of the responses to the stuff I wrote on meta is pretty funny:
2
A: Should there be a test for new users?

Madara UchihaI disagree. Stack Overflow is not a company. We do not require a specific format to our questions. We are a question and answer site. By forcing users to take a test, you're distracting them from the goal. Low quality posts can be edited and improved or closed. Consistent low quality users clearl...

User with 114k rep thinks "Stack Overflow is not a company."
 
3:02 AM
My apps are still crashing left right and centre - too many interesting things to do, too little time.
 
3:37 AM
@Borgleader The comments got restored.
Preserved here:
 
 
3 hours later…
6:18 AM
0
Q: How many BACKS does a person have?

AwasisHow many backs does a person have? I know there are two “sections”, Thoracic and Lumbar Curve. But can someone say “my backs”, when referring to the upper back “thoracic” and lower back “lumbar”?

 
 
2 hours later…
user7659542
8:02 AM
@Mikhail if a subject stands in front the center of a camera's optical axis (ie center of the lens), will it always appear at the center of the image?
 
Image can not be a single point, so it's impossible for it to be at exact center.
Object can not be a single point*
 
@traducerad By design, but obviously you could make a lens to do wacky stuff. For example, there are lenses that form 2x2 copies (tiles) of the image where you would otherwise have a single image. Also the sensor could be located offset from the center.
Although normal people would call most of the wacky stuff prisms.
 
user7659542
8:32 AM
@Mikhail ok so normally both are perfectly alignted
 
Yes?
 
user7659542
@Mikhail Why would people induce such an offset?
 
Ideally, the sensor would be at the center of where the image is formed. You might have some shitty packaging where this isn't quite the case.
 
user7659542
@Mikhail Ok I found many contradictions online, based on this paper for example the optical axis seems to move around on the image
 
user7659542
8:34 AM
cf figure 2
 
@traducerad There is a point where light is focused, they call it the "image center". Nobody should be surprised that it changes as the system changes. Indeed, it even changes for each color, unless you compensate.
But, as I mentioned, you can make an optical system that produces 4 focused points, so saying that there is only one image center isn't quite right either.
Taken to the extreme you get something like a Hartmann-Shack array
 
9:13 AM
Only if you have weird shaped lens/lenses combination.
How light travel is definite, ref to high school physics.
 
@TelKitty well at the edge of the diaphragm diffraction can happen which is more quantum mechanics though
 
You are probably confusing quantum mechanics with polarization
 
 
1 hour later…
10:41 AM
@ratchetfreak Particle nature of light is that to do with quantum mechanics. Wave nature is often dealt with certainty.
Image formation is to do with wave nature of light, thus it can be dealt with almost 100% certainty.
When you have to deal with the emission and location of photons, that's where uncertainty principle comes in.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:49 AM
> Type *****pResult
> I learned boost is faster than malloc.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:54 PM
i all i am trying to create an opengl project with glfw. in the example code there is #include<glad/glad.h> and on compiling i am getting no such file or directory found. i downloaded the required files & got an include folder & src folder .
include folder has glad/ and KHR/ subfolders & src has glad.c . now how am i supposed to link to these files . itried using g++ -std=c++11 maina.cpp -o out -I/include/glad -lGL -lGLU -lglfw3 -lX11 -lXxf86vm -lXrandr -lpthread -lXi -ldl . but i am getting the same error
 
2:15 PM
Probably just -I/include or -I./include.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:29 PM
@Mgetz So I've been running a new test framework for my code for about a week now. Needless to say, nothing ran through either the 1st, 2nd or nth times. While I did catch some very trivial programming errors, I'm also discovering that neither of the overclocks on my 14-core Skylake nor my Ryzen are stable. Not even remotely so.
Both boxes have held up for all other use cases as well as my existing set of unit/integration tests. lol
And they both had 100 - 200MHz OC headroom under stress testing.
 
4:43 PM
@Mysticial I've suspected for awhile that both Intel and AMD are running on the bare edges of disaster. Forced clock increases basically push over that.
 
@Mgetz In this case, the CPU clocks on my Ryzen were at stock. It was the 3000 MHz that bailed last night. (at least that's what it looks like)
 
@Mysticial the memory OC?
 
I've never had 3000 fail with that VOC before.
yeah
 
yeah I've had to be very conservative with my memory clocks and timings, I wasn't able to get over 2800
 
The situation on my 14-core SKX is more complicated as almost everything is overclocked on it. Spent the 1st 2 days ruling out the 3466 memory.
Now it looks like it's either the 4.0 GHz AVX or the 4.6 GHz non-AVX that's breaking it.
I suspect it's the latter for "light" AVX running at 4.6 GHz.
 
4:47 PM
@Mysticial I'd be very very curious to get die level heat maps on that, it's one of the things that I think AMD is being very smart about in Rome... they are spreading out their hot points more
 
Since it isn't the first time I've the machine destabilize on work-loads that are transition heavy in workload types.
 
@Mysticial well is it effectively triggering p-state transitions?
because my next thought was power delivery
and not necessarily just on the mobo
 
Not sure. But there are 5 domains that need to be stable for it to be stable:
1. Non-AVX at non-AVX speed.
2. Light-AVX at non-AVX speed.
3. Heavy AVX at AVX speed.
4. Light AVX512 at AVX speed.
5. Heavy AVX512 at AVX512 speed.
I suspect it's either #2 or #4.
 
yeah that would be where I'd expect power issues, you're potentially drawing much faster than the circuitry can deliver
particularly if you're very very bursty
 
I have stress-tests for 1, 3, and 5. But I don't have anything that hits 2 and 4. But they do happen during transition states of the computation.
 
4:51 PM
I suspect that the AVX512 clock isn't just for heat, but rather for simply getting that much power to the gates
I suspect if that fails it triggers a GP if you're lucky
 
This new test that I wrote/scripted involves running multiple simultaneous instances of the program in swap mode on a ram drive.
So it's really memory intensive. And there's a ton of clock speed transitions as none of the disk I/O code is (manually) vectorized.
 
I'm also curious how this plays into the SPECTRE and MELTDOWN mitigations
and if this happens in unmitigated situations
 
So I immediately suspected it was a memory stability. But I ruled that out when a significant downclock in memory had no effect on the error rate.
@Mgetz All of this is with mitigations enabled.
It also only happens with the two AVX512 binaries. More often with the KNL binary than the SKX one. Haven't seen it at all with the other binaries.
The disk I/O code has a lot of memcpys which are easily compiler vectorizable.
 
@Mysticial I suspect we won't know unless our emails ended with @intel.com
@Mysticial they usually are actually
 
And if they vectorize, they would all be light-AVX512.
Which would be hitting case #4.
 
4:56 PM
@Mysticial depends on the compiler, MSVC still avoids AVX512 for that AFAIK
 
ICC.
Though I didn't turn on aggressive zmm usage.
 
no idea
 
It could be vectorizing it to AVX and hitting case #2.
Oh wait...
 
Yeah I suspect it's a combination of factors
you might be able to observe it in a kdebug
 
I pass the KNL and SKX tuning flags specifically for their binaries. ICC always does aggressive ZMM usage on KNL.
I've had the KNL binary fail at least 5 times since the weekend. And the SKX binary fail only once.
So this might point at #4.
Light-AVX512 at AVX speed.
 
4:59 PM
That to me says it might be a scheduling issue
 
how so?
 
but without knowing what the CPU does when it fails I can't say
@Mysticial KNL last I checked is sequential in order, even for AVX512. That means it can make assumptions about things like power delivery that you can't make on SKX. It also runs at a lower base clock last I heard
so that alleviates a lot of pain points (power, memory etc.) that would show up at higher clocks
 
@Mgetz Right, but the code still needs to work correctly on anything that can run the ISA.
Right now the KNL binary is built with "AVX512-COMMON" and "tune=KNL".
 
@Mysticial agreed, and I thought ICC compiled parallel code paths in those cases.
 
@Mgetz I turned off dispatching.
And I don't see it when I look at the assembly. (granted, I haven't checked the entire program)
 
5:03 PM
without looking at a godbolt compare it'd be hard to guess. But I have hunches that I can't prove. I suspect the scheduling issue could manifest as either a GP/BI fault depending on how big the issue is. Alternatively if it's a deep power delivery issue it could cause the system to think it hits TJ and reset
because fundamentally that's how a deep power delivery would potentially manifest
it might not even be triggering that circuitry, just drawing enough from the init circuitry to cause it to lose state
I honestly don't think any of this is provable without watching voltages on traces
 
@Mgetz Which will also have ridiculously high fluctuation frequencies.
 
@Mysticial hence why unless we worked for intel or AMD I doubt we'd really understand what we were looking at. There will be maximum durations of minimum voltage/amperages that they would know
usually caps would cover that
either on the motherboard or in the actual chips
 
If the thing is still running when I get home tonight, I'll have ruled out #5. Then I'll raise the AVX speed from 3.8 back to 4.0. And that will test #3 and #4. I'm almost certain that #3 is stable. So if that fails, then #4 it is.
But I won't know until Friday.
 
dunno, the only other way to test my theory is to try a board with more robust power delivery
but given you overclock I assume you've already got that
 
Oh and it always manifests as a soft error that gets picked up by my program's own redundancy checks.
@Mgetz The board I have is already one of the highest end boards in terms of power delivery.
 
5:13 PM
@Mysticial that's a critical piece of evidence
I was assuming you were getting a GP or a reset
 
ah
I rarely ever hit hard freezes or reboots on OC instability anymore. It's always a soft error.
 
if you're getting data errors that is a whole other ball of crap
everything from microcode, to again... power delivery
are there patterns in where the errors are?
 
I tend to catch instabilities long before they get to the point of a freeze or reset.
 
I'm assuming there is probably going to be a binary pattern
 
@Mgetz Not really. They always land on the same "Coefficient is too Large" error which basically means something went wrong in some massive FFT computation.
That error has like 90% code coverage.
So everything that goes wrong tends to trigger the same redundancy check and hit the same error.
 
5:15 PM
@Mysticial send it to intel at that point?
does it happen at stock clocks?
 
@Mgetz I haven't tested it at stock. But when I dropped down to 4.4/3.8/3.4 (non-AVX/AVX/AVX512), it survived overnight. Whereas it almost always fails within 1 or 2 hours.
I had it running at 4.6/4.0/3.6 before.
 
@Mysticial so I do think it's power delivery, but deep in the AVX512 circutry
 
Stock I think is 4.2/3.6/3.2.
 
where basically gates are occasionally dipping too low on driving voltage
because the caps can't recharge fast enough
TL;DR it's literally the normal issue with overclocking that's not heat
 
IOW, I need to increase the vcore to compensate.
 
5:19 PM
@Mysticial I don't think you can in this case, you're talking resistance and gate propagation time inside the chip
you might get it to work with LN2 because of the resistance change
 
Problem is that this mobo doesn't support per-core voltage. So I can't up the vcore on the cores that I think need it the most. And I can't increase the global vcore offset because that pushes the other cores into the dangerous range. (> 1.4v)
 
but fundamentally you're talking about trying to get more amperage into deep parts of the chip
Honestly I think the issue is deeeeep in intel's power delivery on the die
 
@Mgetz I can. The problem is that the vcore table varies by as much as 0.200v across the different cores. And I can't override it. So some of the cores are severely getting undervolted.
And I can't bump them up because it causes the remaining cores to enter danger zone.
 
ah ok, I didn't think it was possible to control per core voltages
in theory you could use affinity to run on the higher voltage cores then
 
It can be done on the Asus boards. But my board is Gigabyte.
 
5:22 PM
@Mysticial that's because you value stability...
I'm not impressed with my Asus board
 
The other problem is that this is an ES chip. I've never seen any other chip with such a high vcore table variation across the different cores.
They're usually within +/- 0.050v.
And the memory controller is shit as it won't boot above 3600 MHz.
Though it does seem to be rock stable at 3466 MHz.
 
@Mysticial you know a lot more about that than I do, even my assumptions about power are based on macro circuits... so they may not actually apply
 
All the other SKX chips I've played with had no trouble going up to 3800. (though with minor instabilities above 3600)
 
Agner might know
but I suspect he's an expensive person to ask...
 
I'm not sure he would. He's more on the ISA side. Not much on overclocking or circuitry.
 
5:27 PM
@Mysticial Indirect, he'd be able to tell you how through your port usage is
the higher the usage the more likely the issues
remember no CPU is designed for 100% utilization in reality
 
@Mgetz VTune gives me that already.
Port usage is something like 50 - 60% on the AVX512 ports. The thing is largely memory-bound.
bbl, meeting
 
Yeah the other thing that it's possible that is happening is you're effectively running into rise and fall timings on the transistors themselves
 
6:32 PM
Yeah. I've found that the most "stressful" stress-tests don't catch much beyond the obvious and steady-state instabilities.
It's always the heterogeneous tests that fail.
IOW, the test frameworks for my Pi program are "more stressful" than the built-in stress-test or any of other synthetic stress-testers even though the heat and power-consumption it pulls is much lower.
 
7:12 PM
  {"$id":"1","children":[{"$id":"2","children":[{"$id":"5","children":[],"val":5},{"$id":"6","children":[],"val":6}],"val":3},{"$id":"3","children":[],"val":2},{"$id":"4","children":[],"val":4}],"val":1}  string serialize(Node* root) {
    while(root->children !==NULL )
         printf( root.val);
    }
I keep getting error
5
 
no
 
what am I doing wrong
 
you are an error
 
I know that already :P
common puppy lead me in the right direction
 
no
 
7:16 PM
I thought dogs were suppose to be man's best friend
by the way the data ontop is just the root in the arguments
I posted it up so you can see it
@puppy what do i need to do to get your help
 
@Rick If you want an !== operator, you have to use JavaScript instead of C++.
 
it dose not work when I use !=
Line 21: no match for 'operator!=' (operand types are 'std::vector<Node*>' and 'long int')
I clearly suck as C++ but don't hold it against me
 
7:32 PM

C++ Questions and Answers

Solve problems and approach solutions. Just ask and lurkers wi...
 
cool will ask there thanks
But that room seems more dead than this room
 
Oh great.... yet another Journalist that thinks they are smarter than software engineers
 
@Rick it's a Q&A room not a chitchat room
 
Ya I asked my question
am I not following procedure
 
8:34 PM
on average how many people a week come in here and discover its not a Q+A room?
 
maybe you should make that part of the title for the room. "Not Q +A room"
 
8:56 PM
only if you typo on a phone. Q&A
🤔
 
9:47 PM
@Rick Actually this room has a lot of questions and discussion, but its hard to explain to people that only "interesting" questions are tolerated.
 
interesting seems subjective
 
hence the quotes
 
Most of the "interesting" questions here aren't actually about C++.
 
Most "interesting" things rarely are.
 
Also all my validation tests passed.
 
9:57 PM
Is working at Google really all its hyped up to be
 
working at Google sucks because they don't have an office near my town :v
 
Depends on what you compare Google to
Is it better than Monsanto's IT department? Probably?
 
Is it better than Bloomberg
 
better seems subjective
 
It is subjective. but it's also a personal question. it's meant to be subjective
So did you guys hear, they have a brain interface now. they can connect you to another person and it does something
Does my question really deserve to be stared
 
11:04 PM
Its almost a right of passage
 
Serious?? Bank's login page gone ...
 
@Rick They've done that for a while, but I'm waiting for a human to animal interface.
 

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