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Ell
Ell
12:00
oh yeah I remember reading something on super user about them being quite resistant to magnets
@Insilico Good point. Whoever, it is all about scale
every poison-if-you-would-take-too-much is good if not too much
@JohannesSchaublitb The dose makes the poison
every poision thing
Which nobody seems to understand.
12:01
OK, editing..
A lethal dose (LD) is an indication of the lethality of a given substance or type of radiation. Because resistance varies from one individual to another, the 'lethal dose' represents a dose (usually recorded as dose per kilogram of subject body weight) at which a given percentage of subjects will die. The LD may be based on the standard person concept, a theoretical individual that has perfectly "normal" characteristics, and thus not apply to all sub-populations. Lethal doses are usually expressed as median lethal dose (LD50), the point where 50% of test subjects exposed would die, in the...
Ell
Ell
hydrogen cyanide is the worst poison isn't it?
@JohannesSchaublitb Water is 'poision-if-you-would-take-too-much'. Oxygen, as well
Ell
Ell
I mean, least dose required to kill
12:02
@Ell Define worst
Ell
Ell
most fast acting with least dose required?
@Ell Hydrogen cyanide doesn't compare to the neurotoxins some organisms produce
everything matches that criteria
Ell
Ell
really?
12:03
cyanide is quite crude in how it actually works
really
Ell
Ell
but it inhibits respiration, doesn't it? How can anything kill quicker than that
respriation as in cellular respiration
*aerobic respiration
Ell
Ell
the end result of other poisons would be stopping respiration, so doing that directly would be the quickest
12:04
@Ell I think botulinum toxin is one of the most potent neurotoxins around.
is it true that due to leap seconds a minute can have 61 seconds?
it doesn't stop you breathing, other than preventing the muscles that control the breathing reflex from liberating enough energy to work
@Ell No, there's always a reserve of ATP in the cells
@Cicada I'm polar. Not sure about bi
Not much, but there's still some
12:04
@FredOverflow I see you took care of that for me. Thanks
human body's ATP reserves are about 10 seconds at maximum effort
But if you really want to see poisonous, you should check out the neurotoxins like botulinum toxin.
so if you take 10 seconds maximum efforts you die?
that's why the 100 metres sprint is fundamentally a different sport to all other distances, it's the only one where breathing during running isn't that important
12:05
Which is ironically the active ingredient in Botox treatments.
Yum
no, after that you have to start regenerating it
requiring oxygen
what if you don't have oxygen
@TomW interesting
well then yes you're probably at quite severe risk of...erm...death
12:06
@JohannesSchaublitb Then your cells resort to anaerobic respiration.
there will be some residual oxygen hanging around in your blood
Anaerobic respiration requires no oxygen, but it's not enough to satisfy the energy demands of human cells.
that sounds interesting
It's used only as an emergency procedure
12:07
but i'm not sure i gonna try. i won't be able to see the results. bad
Apparently, Java is becoming a lot less retarded in version 8.
The anaerobic pathway is glycolysis, if you want to look that up. :-)
List<String> filteredNames = names.filter(e -> e.length() >= 4).into(new ArrayList<String>());
@FredOverflow Relatively speaking, right?
very nice lambda syntax
12:08
Actually that's not bad.
@FredOverflow ohh nice lambda
into() takes a preexisting collection instance?
I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of into is, just read the link.
@TomW I don't see why not.
Oh, default implementations for interface methods, nice!
12:10
@FredOverflow Didn't C++ have that for >10 years now? :-P
Well, it could raise questions about whether or not the method has to clear it first, for example. There's no reason why that couldn't be well-documented, but IMO it could increase confusion for people new to the API
@Insilico Nobody had the courage yet to propose interfaces for C++. They would probably be way too simple for the language ;-)
@TomW Personally if into() clears the collection that would be unintuitive.
If it said assign() instead of into() then yes, I would probably think it clears the collection first.
@Insilico but if it leaves whatever's in it already there, the filter chain would yield misleading results, wouldn't it? Do the results get appended or inserted over the top?
My best guess is that filter is lazy, and into makes it strict.
12:12
@FredOverflow why do they make method refs by "::" instead of by "." ?
@TomW I think that depends on the nature of the target collection (e.g. map vs. arrays)
The library designers could pick any option they wanted, but it'll upset anybody who looks at the API and assumes something different
@JohannesSchaublitb probably syntax ambiguity reasons
@TomW It's not our fault for people not RTFM.
IMO the idiomatic behaviour for that method chain would be to create a new ArrayList, instead of accepting one
12:13
But I do understand your point.
@TomW And how should filter know to create an ArrayList instead of a LinkedList or any other kind of List or Collection?
well, .Net supplies ToArray(), ToList() and ToDictionary() off the top of my head
hey, one question
possibly () -> new ArrayList() (or other collection type)
12:15
does it make sense for a language with dynamic typing to support both arrays and tuples?
but the call to into has responsibility for actually instantiating
@JohannesSchaublitb It sounds redundant, I think.
@JohannesSchaublitb Is there such a language?
F# has lists and tuples
IIRC
@JohannesSchaublitb Maybe if tuples are immutable as in Python
12:16
Did anyone notice any downtime of the mumble server? Somewhere from 2:30-3:43 CEST
@TomW F# is statically typed though
yes, I realised that immediately after I'd said it
Ell
Ell
nay
I believe it has support for dynamic but it is not in itself a dynamic language
@Ell ?
12:18
Wow I never thought making a 300-turn coil was such a pain in the ass.
Ell
Ell
@sehe I did not notice downtime - but then I haven't been on it in a long while
@Insilico You're doing it wrong.
@KonradRudolph hmm. why would make that a difference?
@Ell Tsk tsk
@JohannesSchaublitb tuples are hashable, lists aren’t. As a consequence, a dict of tuples is fine, while a dict of lists isn’t
12:19
@sehe (done manually)
Ell
Ell
Actually I need a soundcard. for some reason my front panel audio doesn't work :/ that means plugging in a headset is a royal pain
I unfortunately don't have a coil-making machine.
4 mins ago, by Johannes Schaub - litb
does it make sense for a language with dynamic typing to support both arrays and tuples?
@Ell Get a stereo cord extension.
Ell
Ell
12:19
@Insilico make one!
@Ell I'm too lazy. Just go to Radioshack or Fry's and get one.
Ell
Ell
I was thinking a cheap usb sound card. But really I ought to fix the front panel audio. It works in linux :(
I'm busy calibrating a 300A hall-effect current sensor I made.
Ell
Ell
but I have to be on windows :(
@Insilico you're doing it wrong. It should be a pain in the neck, fingers and possibly eyes, but... a pain in the ass?
12:20
@sehe huh
@sehe In the English language, "pain in the ass" is a metaphorical expression for "this is really hard to do" or "this is really tedious".
@Johannes But of course this limitation bears all the hallmarks of static type safety so maybe it’s not even appropriate in the context of your language … you could allow dictionaries of mutable data, it’s just very dangerous (since mutating them while they are in the dictionary would break the dictionary’s contract)
@Insilico aw my bad. Sorry, I'm not a native speaker
@KonradRudolph hmmm what
@Cicada what, what?
12:22
depends on how the dictionnary is sorted
@sehe Okay, I actually can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.
you can mutate the fields that have no influence on the dictionnary structure
@Cicada Okay, yes
@JohannesSchaublitb Tuples can be used for pattern matching, but they cannot be indexed, and arrays can be indexed, but they cannot used for pattern matching. There you go.
other than that I violently agree with you
12:23
@Ell you probably have to install crappy vendor drivers and go into memory and CPU sucking applications (SoundMAX?) to reconfigure the ports. Frequently, though, you can alter the 'recording' properties in Volume Control to show more channels (the one corresponding to front mic might just be muted)
@KonradRudolph Why aren't lists hashable? Because they are mutable?
@FredOverflow that’s a totally arbitrary distinction, some languages allow pattern matching on arrays, and lots (all?) of languages allow indexed access for tuples
@FredOverflow oh. why can you not index tuples?
that seems weird to me
@FredOverflow Yes
@FredOverflow Because it makes no sense I guess
Ell
Ell
12:24
@sehe I have tried for hours :S I can't get it working :/ I ought to try another time, but atm I am busy writing my async game server yay!
so a list is an array?
(I don't know what you guys are talking about so I'll just shut my moth)
@sehe Well, I've seen non-native speakers speak perfect English. :-)
@Cicada Shut your fucking moth. And butterfly, too!
12:25
@Cicada We're just being idiots.
@KonradRudolph Haskell doesn't allow indexed access for tuples.
haskell is not dynamically typed
!next
@JohannesSchaublitb Well, in statically typed languages, what would be the return type of indexing a tuple of type (Int, String)? :) Of course it could be done in dynamically typed languages.
12:26
@FredOverflow I’ll accept that provisionally but I’m uncertain whether you couldn’t work around that
@FredOverflow i was talking about dynamically typed languages. sorry for not making that clear :(
but yes, it wouldn’t make sense since you can’t express a variable-length tuple in the Haskell type system (or can you?)
@JohannesSchaublitb You did make that clear, but I always have that statically typed demon in my head when thinking about programming languages, sorry.
@KonradRudolph Even if you could, what would be the return type of indexing into a tuple of different types?
@Insilico sigh. lighten up. A pain in the neck is always less awkward than one in the ass. Analogously I prefer talking out of my neck.
12:27
@FredOverflow Well, in C++ you’ve got get<> which works just fine thanks to template argument packs.
so it seems to me that in dynamically typed languages, the tuple vs array distinction makes no real sense
I guess because tuples aren't really supposed to express the concept of order? Nothing is 'first' or 'last' in a tuple, according to some people's interpretation of what a tuple is. They just express that stuff is together.
@KonradRudolph But you must know the index at compile-time here.
so i could imagine to have a language where the syntax "T x[N]" yields a tuple of N Ts
@FredOverflow Yes, but that restriction wasn’t mentioned in the discussion so far
Ell
Ell
12:29
what does use of deleted function mean?
That was one clear and valid flag in the PHP room
@Ell You're doing it wrong (TM)
@KonradRudolph Okay, let's discuss compile-time issues in dynamic languages :)
Ell
Ell
Yeah :/
perhaps one could argue that arrays allow more efficient organization even in dynamicaly typed languages
@Ell You're trying to use a function that is explicitely prohibited. E.g. move constructor, copy constructor etc.
12:29
for example you don'T need to repeat the type information for every element in the array
though I doubt that will gain you much. will it?
@Ell to be fair, things get 'implicitely' deleted, IIRC: e.g. when there is a (const) reference member, a assignment operator won't be generated by the compiler
Ell
Ell
@sehe right. I am a bit confused about when I need to use std::move and when I don't on a std::unique_ptr. I think that is where I'm going wrong
@Ell not true
a copy constructor is generated even if a class has a reference member
@JohannesSchaublitb Will it ever! For large arrays, the difference is huge
12:31
part of the problem why optimising some operations in JS is so f*ing difficult – in JS, you cannot omit this information easily
Ell
Ell
@JohannesSchaublitb I think you mean to plink sehe there
Also, when a value member has it's copy constructor deleted, the compiler-generated copy constructor will at least be absent, and I suppose c++11 will mark it implicitly as deleted
@JohannesSchaublitb I’m actually tinkering on an array processing language that is based on this in my spare time
@Ell No need, fixed already
@KonradRudolph on the downside, the representation of an array element vs the representation of other variables will be different. so if you access an array element, you need special handling in the variable-modifying procedures
Ell
Ell
12:32
brb!
afk!
linking the elements with their array parent variable or somehow carrying type information along with the lvalue evaluation result of an array element access
@JohannesSchaublitb Sure you have to "repeat" the type information, because you can put whatever you want into an array in dynamically typed languages. At least in JavaScript.
@FredOverflow See my comment above ;)
@FredOverflow i think the assumpton underlying this discussion is a language which does have distinction of arrays (homo collections) and tuples (hetero collections)
12:34
We're all programmers here. Does that mean the Lounge is a homo collection?
@JohannesSchaublitb Are you saying dynamic languages like JavaScript are heteronormative?
> I don't like your stamps, they're gay!
^ homo collection
why are you thinking about sexual orientation when someone uses obvious abbr. of technical terms. -.-
@JohannesSchaublitb Because we’re childish :)
Because @Tony is not around to do it.
@KonradRudolph Reminds me of times when I talk about HOMOs and LUMOs to ochem students.
@KonradRudolph is there any language implementation of dynamically typed languages that have tuples and arrays, and where type information is not repeated for every element?
@JohannesSchaublitb For homogeneous collections?
@JohannesSchaublitb For arrays, see R – but that doesn’t have tuples as far as I’m aware
12:38
and I’m betting that most matrix manipulation languages are similar, i.e. the Matlab language etc.
perhaps i shall use homogen and heterogen as abbr. but that also has a slightly, ehm, controversial meaning
lol
as far as I remember, every object in R has a mode and a class, where the mode is something like numeric and the class would be list or matrix etc.
@JohannesSchaublitb I haven't had my tea or coffee this morning yet. I'm not seeing the controversial meanings?
@KonradRudolph ah nice.
so i guess it doesn't have multidimensional arrays
or it would also need something like "mode depth"
@JohannesSchaublitb You mean nested/jagged? It has, but it’s a pain in the ass. Normal arrays are always flattened
12:40
ah i see
It does have multiple dimensions since a variable additionally has dims
i hate flattening arrays or tuples. makes it difficult to write generic functions
i.e. you can assign dims(3, 4) to an array with 12 elements … guess what that does
@KonradRudolph oh ok
Ell
Ell
right, if I have a unique_ptr and I want to pass it to a function, giving the function ownership of it, do I have to move it?
12:42
@Ell Yes, unless it's a temporary.
@KonradRudolph wait. if it flattens them, how can it have multiple dims?
Ell
Ell
right kk
unique_ptr disables copy semantics.
@Ell Only if you want to pass ownership, otherwise, pass it by const reference
> ...if I have a unique_ptr and I want to pass it to a function, giving the function ownership of it
12:43
@JohannesSchaublitb I don’t see how that’s a contradiction, these two are unrelated.
Ell
Ell
ughh use of deleted function boost::-bi::bind_t<void, boost::_mfi::mf2<..... blah blah blah
@KonradRudolph i thought that flatten means that if you have an array inside an array, the array is "lifted up" into the outer array so the elements of the first array are not part of the second array
Ell
Ell
getting the shopping in, afk :)
12:44
@JohannesSchaublitb Yes. Multiple dimensions are not arrays inside arrays though
@KonradRudolph ohh
Well, they kind of are in C, where you simulate multiple dimensions with nested arrays
but that’s only because C doesn’t actually support multiple dimension arrays
i always thought that'S the canonical CS definition
i.e. you have x[3][4], but you don’t have x[3, 4]
In computer programming, an Iliffe vector, also known as a display, is a data structure used to implement multi-dimensional arrays. An Iliffe vector for an n-dimensional array (where n > 2) consists of a vector (or 1-dimensional array) of pointers to an (n − 1)-dimensional array. They are often used to avoid the need for expensive multiplication operations when performing address calculation on an array element. They can also be used to implement triangular arrays, or other kinds of irregularly shaped arrays. The data structure is named after John K. Iliffe, Their di...
(and what the f*** is that weird name? Iiiffe?)
what is the diff between a dim2 array and a dim1 array of dim1 arrays?
12:46
@KonradRudolph That's the last name of the dude who invented it (John K. Iliffe)
@Insilico Three “i”? Really?
ILIFFE
Second is an L
@KonradRudolph in c++, the standard defines it that way
@KonradRudolph I'm pretty sure that's two "i"s and one "l".
12:48
@KonradRudolph I sooo not get it :(
@JohannesSchaublitb You have been smoking too many template fumes.
lol
i will make an SO question
@KonradRudolph Let's invent a new C++ idiom and call it IIIFFE.
Crap I forget that the measurement wires contribute to resistance when measuring ~1-2 ohms. :-(
@FredOverflow What idiom would that be? :-)
@Insilico Inner Instantiation Is Fatal For Exceptions?
12:55
0
Q: What's the difference between arrays of arrays and multidimensional arrays?

Johannes Schaub - litbI had a language-agnostic discussion with someone in the C++ chat and he said that arrays of arrays and multidimensional arrays are two things. But from what I learned, a multidimensional array is nothing more than an array of other arrays that all have the same size. In particular he is saying...

Anyone ever heard of this? preyproject.com
@Cicada Sounds useless if the thief formats the hard drive. Or is that "agent" a piece of hardware?
@FredOverflow I doubt thieves are more technically inclined than the average human
Software agent
@Cicada I can only say (from the homepage) that they leak massive user information using they're twitter feed. I wonder what they replicate that on their homepage for
I've got a plutonium bomb in my laptop that needs to be deactivated every 24 hours. Good luck stealing that.
12:59
@sehe I only see tweets with @preyproject mention

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