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12:10 AM
@nwp i don't see anyonen relaxing here though........
 
@FrankfortKentucky Well I'm certainly not writing c++ right now!
 
@LucDanton Why is that?
 
12:32 AM
a devil’s advocate might say that it’s preferable over not improving it
 
@LucDanton So you're of the (obviously heretical) opinion that better is actually better?
 
hey don’t shoot the messenger, at least as long as I’m the messenger
 
wow
I'm thinking of jumping ship for my next project btw
To guess who
 
@LucDanton I never shoot the messenger. No promise about tarring and feathering though.
 
12:49 AM
@VermillionAzure ? MS?
 
1:12 AM
Rust is not a person
6
My hash implementation simply scales better. You never mentioned any limit to the size of the bitsets. Therefore we cannot assume there is a limit. However, for small sizes, obviously the simpler hash function is much faster. Why would you not want to use it if it's faster? (Corrollary: Tell us what you are doing, for once, so we can tell you (again) to use std::bitset<64> or similar!). That's >2 months ago. — sehe 52 secs ago
This guy keeps mocking his name by trying ~~performance~~ stuff all the time, without knowing what he's doing
I'll await [sic, nomen est omen] further clarifications before I spend a lot more time here. Regardless, it's clear that performance doesn't necessarily come from complexity (in fact, it rarely does) and theoretically "better" resource complexity doesn't guarantee better behaviour in practice. You have to really know what you need, what you're ending up doing and why. — sehe 20 mins ago
 
@sehe I regularly profile/benchmarking my code with an oscilloscope. The number of times I've been surprised by jitter or sporadic bottleneck in a particular code branch..
 
1:50 AM
@sehe PERFORMANCE
 
Isn't it always the same story
 
huh upcoming -Wstringop-truncation warning in GCC 8 is preventing me from building a GCC snapshot, that’ll teach me to not disable bootstrapping
 
That's pretty cryptic
 
confusion unchanged after understanding no words
 
2:49 AM
should read "zero bytes"
I solved your problem, give me an upvote
 
3:09 AM
I wish I could downvote comments here
 
3:24 AM
-4
Q: Write a test program that prompts the user to enter 10 integers to a vector and displays the distinct integers

ken(Remove duplicates) using c++ Write a function that removes the duplicate elements from a vector using the following header: Write a test program that prompts the user to enter 10 integers to a vector and displays the distinct integers. Here is a sample run: Enter ten integers:34 5 3 5 6 4 33 2...

^ close votes
 
Ugh... My 3800 MT/s memory overclock isn't stable. It soft errored after about 2 months of usage.
 
tune down the RGB lights to lower the baseline alpha particles
 
It doesn't have any. lol
 
That's the problem, its not cool enough!
 
When I tested it at 102 base clock (3900 MT/s) it would consistently soft error within a minute. Dropping the ram down one multiplier made it stable. Increasing both DRAM and System Agent voltages only increased the MTTF to a few minutes. Relaxing the timings didn't do shit.
 
3:30 AM
What's the normal speed?
 
2133 with 3200 XMP. CPU is rated for 2666.
I'm most likely gonna settle for 3733 instead of 3800 MT/s since that seems to be stable with a 2% buffer. But I want to tighten the timings a bit to compensate.
 
I wonder if ECC would actually help when OC-ing, that is, if you can OC it the same as non-ECC RAM.
 
ECC only protects against bit flips in the DRAM. It doesn't help with memory controller or transmission errors - which is usually the case in overclocking.
 
Oh, that makes sense.
 
Actually, it should help with transmission errors since I believe the ECC logic is in the memory controller and not the DRAM chip itself.
But memory controller instability is still the problem.
 
3:43 AM
What if ECC RAM is a scam, and the reason we see less creased memory errors is a slower clock speed?
 
Finally someone willing to talk openly against Big RAM!
 
I have a query related to implementation of IOC container in C
 
You don't owe C anything.
 
Currently I maintain a container of dependencies that are used as a service thru service locator pattern
 
Sounds like an easy life
 
3:49 AM
here is the code.
config.c maintains those dependencies
 
shamhub is an unfortunate name
 
in load time of .so
How is container of dependencies different from IOC container?
@Mikhail Am not native speaker in English, I did not get you.
 
Adjective: sham (comparative more sham, superlative most sham)
  1. Intended to deceive; false.
  2. It was only a sham wedding: they didn't care much for one another but wanted their parents to stop hassling them.
  3. counterfeit; unreal
  4. Jowett
  5. They scorned the sham independence proffered to them by the Athenians.
Noun: sham (plural shams)
  1. A fake; an imitation that purports to be genuine.
  2. The time-share deal was a sham.
  3. Trickery, hoaxing.
  4. A con-man must be skilled in the arts of sham and deceit.
  5. A false front, or removable ornamental covering.
  6. A decorative cover for a pillow.
Verb: sham (third-person singular simple present shams, present participle shamming, simple past and past participle shammed)
  1. To deceive, cheat, lie.
  2. L'Estrange
  3. Fooled and shammed into a conviction.
  4. To obtrude by fraud or imposition.
  5. L'Estrange
  6. We must have a care that we do not […] sham fallacies...
 
sham is an hindi word
 
@overexchange lmao you saying that to @Mikhail
 
3:54 AM
Never knew that sham is also part of English dictionary
 
@Mysticial I don't believe so, depends on your definition of "memory controller", but ECC is enabled on the chip level and available through chip interface per memory IC
 
Am sorry but, Is this chat room about technical discussions?
 
Samsung for example advertises different DRAM IC for ECC and non-ECC
 
What does lounge mean?
 
@crasic The memory controller is the IMC on the chip.
 
3:55 AM
@overexchange Anything that isn't c++
 
Oh ok sorry
 
@Mysticial Yes, of course, internally DRAM is DRAM
@overexchange really its whatever, but in my defense, I didn't bring it up
 
4:13 AM
Am not getting your English, R u saying that, this chatroom is for any thing related or not related to C++?
 
this chatroom is for C++ ppl 2 talk about no C++ related stuff
5
 
@overexchange You should go to chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/116940/c-questions-and-answers for queries.
 
I'm gonna need some better DIMMs to hit either 3800 MT/s or 3733 MT/s CL17. That latter setting didn't hold up with a 2% buffer.
And I can't use CL18 because for some reason it cuts the bandwidth in half. Not sure if it's interacting with some of the secondary timings which I'm very unfamiliar with.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:34 AM
@Mikhail Looks like I have to drop my CPU overclock as well. When I last tested, it was just barely touching the temperature throttle point at 3.8 GHz AVX512. But it's been quite a few months now, and the code is a lot more efficient than it was before. So while I was stability testing with thermal limits disabled, that 3.8 GHz was shooting way past the usual throttle point well above 100C. lol
IOW, it's been throttling hard all this time - which could explain some of the inconsistencies I see in the timings.
Since it causes a load imbalance between cores. And it would also fuck up the superoptimizer.
I seem to have lost about 200 MHz of thermal headroom, yet gained a net 20% speed improvement. lol
 
 
3 hours later…
8:10 AM
@Mysticial lolno. From looking at the time of your message, I'd just turned my computer back on at that time, so I automatically joined all my open rooms :P
 
Hi
 
 
2 hours later…
9:52 AM
@Mysticial We need HD overclocking
 
@Mikhail I was about to say that only a few of those felt true, but then I remembered that the Murakami I read is Ryu, not Haruki ._____.
 
@Mysticial recently got fucked over by an LSI 9240-8i. Hands down the worst card I've used. Posted a review on Amazon which wasn't allowed to go through because apparently functionality isn't something you can actually review. No clue why it was rejectd. 4 SSDs gave 200 MB/s, compared to my server's built in LSI RAID which gives 1800 MB/s. Card says its 8x, but seems to knock out a 16x slot, which is a show stopper on my servers at work. No Server 2016 support. Can't enable write back caching.
@Morwenn I need some reading/audio book suggestions...
 
@Mikhail Almost Transparent Blue
Coin Locker Babies if you've got more time, but I still like * Almost Transparent Blue* more :p
 
The wiki page reminds me that I should be spending more time on sex, drugs and rock 'n roll
 
me too, probably
 
10:03 AM
probably doesn't matter took much because every time we go to sleep our conscious stops - causing an effective death
Recently read the new English translation of Solaris, have been trying to sneak in references to Solaristics in my professional communications without much acknowledgement
 
10:40 AM
My iphone passed out - went kayaking, water got in, phone was swimming in a puddle of water. When I got it out, it was still alive. But when I checked it again when I got back in the car, it has fainted
RIP phone, if I don't see you back alive again!
 
10:51 AM
-2
Q: Calculation of CRC

Abirami SridharanU8 CO2_SPIDRIVER::CRC4(CONST U32 BUFFER) { //#[ OPERATION CRC4(U32) U32 POLYNOMIAL = 0X13; U32 GENERATOR = (STATIC_CAST<U32>(POLYNOMIAL) << (32-4)); //LEFT SHIFTED CONST U32 MSB = 0X80000000U; U32 CRC = BUFFER | 0XFU; //0XF IS THE INITIAL VALUE FOR (U8 I=0U; I<

what is that guy even trying to say
 
sometimes I wonder what people are actually expecting when they post random dumps of nonsense here v0v
 
all his questions make no sense
2
 
 
1 hour later…
sbi
11:58 AM
I am still trying to get my feet wet with modern C++, and, after years of being stuck in C++03 land, it's hard. What's the idiom nowadays to limit template<typename C> void f(C) to Types of C that have declared a value_type and begin() and end() member functions? I tried to do this using enable_if and/or void_t, but I got lost... :(
 
12:10 PM
sim is salty from immerge in the sea water
 
 
2 hours later…
2:12 PM
@sbi Uhhhh
I think you'll have to do some template metaprogramming on the value_type existence as a member variable. You'll also get the compile-time checking for begin() and end() as long as you use both of them in the course of the function f since template substitution is almost like duck typing in semantics.
 
> Experience in addressing extreme non-functional requirements related to latencies and scalability
lol. "Technical requirements" != "non-functional requirements"
 
what does "extreme non-functional requirements" mean?
Is that, like "funny do-dad requirements that are XTREME?"
 
It's bro-speak for "we're awesome rock-star programmers" I think
@Morwenn sorry
 
@sehe why? :o
 
2:27 PM
Shitposting SO stuff here
@Ven The 'sehe effect' was not very effective: stackoverflow.com/a/47814666/85371
 
Ven
@sehe 2/3 of it worked :P.
@sehe people using vectors to build ASTs are the bane of the parsing world :c
 
2:51 PM
Fuck that :|
@Ven Really?
For some reason you even hard-coded an infinite loop in the vector-overload. Really. Sit back, tell us what you're trying to represent (I have the feeling you're doing some kind of Lisp-style programming language, but you fail to properly parse to an AST and then scatter all your semantics throughout some code, meaning everything will just break spectacularly on unexpected input... Empty vector? BOOM. No trailing "nil" literal in a cons? BOOM. — sehe 25 mins ago
SHIT. This wrong answer got accepted before I could post mine:
Whoa. This answer is plain wrong. Run your code under valgrind/with -fsanitize=address to see why. Please reconsider the accept before it's definitive — sehe 2 mins ago
 
Ven
@sehe Alright...
How do people make Lisp parsing this difficult? ;o)
 
Assuming it is Lisp parsing
Besides, the code you show is Undefined Behaviour: en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/enable_shared_from_this/… (c++17 makes it defined, but guaranteed to throw) — sehe 9 secs ago
So many careless answers on one question.
 
Ven
holy shit lol
 
@Ven It doesn't rain when it pours:
The edit makes things worse. There's no such thing as "incompletely constructed members" inside the constructor body. Also, it's not being copied. What's copied is a T*. — sehe 18 secs ago
 
Ven
@sehe incompletly constructed members
here we see people who don't use initializer lists
 
3:00 PM
Don't even realize why they exist.
 
Ven
poor teachers
 
I want to be at the pub already :(
 
Ven
@Morwenn same...
 
@Ven when do I see you? :p
 
Ven
@Morwenn whenever you come to paris :)
 
3:02 PM
@Ven probably later than that even: I'm going to Paris in April, but only to take a plane to Japan x)
unfortunately I probably won't stay there long enough to see you
OTOH if I arrive in Paris soon enough and not too far then maybe we could enjoy a beer or something else together :p
 
Ven
@Morwenn for sure :)
@Morwenn I've had beers with friends in a 45min switch between trains :P
 
if I'm not mistaken my plane takes off on 2017-04-09, so I should be there with my sister the day before
supposedly to sleep at a distant aunt (not sure what she actually is except that she's super cool)
wait, 2017-04-03, not 2017-04-09
and I should be back the 25th of the same month
 
I'm retracting my downvote because I realized the answer is not completely wrong as I claimed. It's just missing the forest for the trees, and as such it's a helpful suggestion, albeit not a solution. — sehe 11 secs ago
Being completely integral about it takes effort
@Morwenn like that ^
 
actually when I wrote "here" I was thinking about SO, not about the chat
 
Ah.
Thanks! That was extremely informative. You also significantly increased my reading list for now. — Edwin 2 mins ago
All's well that ends well
 
3:20 PM
nice
 
@JerryCoffin I'd say that in my case, My resume often changes depending on the job I'm applying for. It's all about how things are relevant to the job. Funnily, I tell my boss I don't know PHP to prevent being included in a PHP project.
 
I often wish I could avoid mentioning my experience with Ant x)
 
Delete this message
 
too late D:
on the other hand, I can safely delete it from my resume since I would have to learn everything again
 
Re last edit. Aw come on. Just delete if you're going to be hand-waivy about "somehow copying T". It doesn't. Don't spread FUD. Update. I fixed your text, so I don't have to re-downvote :) — sehe 57 secs ago
 
Ven
3:29 PM
Good Guy Sehe
 
Yeah. I was about to redownvote. But I appreciate his time more than I hate FUD
 
Ven
4:13 PM
Seeing a -1 feels good.
 
4:36 PM
@JNat Aww... I was almost impressed.
@Mikhail Isn't the BIOS the one that controls whether to give it 8 or 16 lanes?
 
EE Rule #1: No Datasheet = No Sale
 
4:53 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix That's easier in my case. I really don't know PHP. In fact, I've never even heard of PHP before. What are you talking about anyway?
@Mysticial At least as I read it, the board takes up a 16 lane slot, but its hardware can only use up to 8 lanes.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh... haha Theoretically you can cut it. You can even cut the PCIe socket on the mobo and it should still work.
 
@Mysticial Yeah--and I'm sure physically hacking up expensive server mobos to fit crappy cards is going to be extremely popular sometime soon... :-)
@crasic I've lost count of the products I've seen that were literally nothing more than an implementation of an App Note ( + a shiny case, of course).
 
@JerryCoffin On the consumer boards, they give you a ton of x16 slows that are only wired up for x8. On the server boards you need to cut them. It's stupid.
 
@Mysticial I don't understand how you'd consider this stupid. I mean, it's perfectly sensible that when you're spending $700 on a motherboard, you'd want to skimp on the edge connectors to save at least 34 cents on the price--maybe even a whole dollar!
 
5:43 PM
@JerryCoffin A dollar for each PCIe slot. That's a lot of money!
 
@JerryCoffin it's the ugly child of C
 
@Mikhail welcome to the horror story that is consumer hardware
you're lucky if you have 24 PCIe lanes
 
@Mgetz I have 44 lanes and I'm only using 16 of them.
Actually, less than that given that I don't really use the GPU much other than for a 4k monitor for Windows Explorer.
 
@Mysticial I have 24 and I'm using 17 I believe
the point was more along the lines that SLI/CrossFire are inherently flawed, because both cards are hampered in bandwidth
 
 
1 hour later…
7:03 PM
your brain is just hampered
 
@Puppy Mine was for a while, but I couldn't handle the smell of all those dirty clothes for very long.
 
user784668
@Mysticial I'm using 0, because iGPU.
 
@Fanael I have no space on my chip for iGPU because it's filled with moar cores.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Or because Intel will introduce the same model with iGPU for twice the price.
 
user784668
I wouldn't even be surprised, to be honest.
 
user784668
7:14 PM
It would be so Intel.
 
Honestly I have been working for 5 years on the same notebook and I don't really feel I'm lagging behind.
I miss the time when 1 year later you could buy a computer that is twice as powerful.
 
user784668
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The biggest performance jump Intel ever made was from Pentium 4 to Core.
 
user784668
Of course, that's because that's basically the same as the jump from Pentium 4 to Pentium 3.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I really only need one desktop and one laptop with a reasonable GPU. Everything else only needs to handle 1440p or 4k Windows Explorer.
Though my Skylake X build has one additional requirement - RGB.
 
Even my 10 years old notebook boat is still a beast compared to new notebooks... it literally had 1920x1200 then
 
user784668
7:19 PM
@Mysticial Even Intel iGPUs can handle 4k explorer.
 
it's just the cpu that is now undercloaked at 1ghz because... no idea.
 
@Fanael I use the iGPU on my 4770K. My 8350 and Ryzen 1800X don't have one.
And neither of my HEDTs do either.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Same here, I only ever use the discrete GPU for occasional gaming in a windows VM.
 
@Mysticial computer station are a different thing. I wouldn't mind building a machine if it wouldn't cost twice as much to send it back in Canada
 
My laptop has an iGPU, but it's disabled because there's a 970m on it.
 
user784668
7:22 PM
Linux just always runs on Intel and doesn't even have Nvidia drivers installed.
 
user784668
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GM204 [GeForce GTX 970] (rev a1)
        Kernel driver in use: vfio-pci
 
@Fanael In terms of features, the jump from 286 to 386 was the biggest. In terms of speed, I'm pretty sure 386 to 486 was the biggest--especially for floating point, which improved by 20:1 for those few who had math-coprocessors with their 386, and more like 1000:1 for everybody else.
 
aren't nvidia nouveau drivers already in the kernel now?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Did Linus walk back on his "fuck Nvidia" comment?
 
user784668
@Mysticial Nouveau was always in the kernel.
 
user784668
7:24 PM
But they're crap.
 
@Mysticial probably not
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin I'm pretty sure you have no idea about how shit NetBurst was, then.
 
Even Linus was funnier to read back in the time...
 
@Fanael I was intimately familiar with Netbust. It's still not even in the same general ballpark as moving from an off-board math coprocessor to an integrated one. Pentium IV to Core was on the order of a 2:1 or 3:1 improvement. 386 to 486 was (as noted above) more like 20:1 even for the (very few) who had math coprocessors with their 386.
 
@JerryCoffin most of my memory going back to 386 are playing with ms-paint and the fill tool.
 
7:29 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix More like "of course not". If Linus were to start admitting when he was wrong, he'd spend the rest of his life saying nothing but: "oh god! I'm so sorry!"
 
@JerryCoffin he's never wrong
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin For the very few who had the software that used a math coprocessor.
 
user784668
Back then vast majority of software was using only integer math.
 
@Fanael That's still the case now.
I'm surprised Intel hasn't tried price discriminating the FPU. $300 for Core i7 without hardware FPU. Most people won't need it. But for those that do, you can pay $1000 for one, or $2000 for double-wide SIMD!
 
user784668
@Mysticial JavaScript uses doubles exclusively (unless the JIT can optimize that out, but that fails more often than not), and since it's 2017, everything uses JS.
 
7:33 PM
Oh and with discounts down to $999 and $1999 if you have Comcast internet.
Fuck you FCC.
 
user784668
@Mysticial laughs in non-usonian
 
@Fanael Well, lots of things used floating point, but some just had hand-rolled FP code, where others used an FPU emulator that automatically used the FPU if it was present. At one time, a guy actually went into business selling a compiled copy of the spreadsheet Borland included as a sample with Turbo Pascal--because for a while, it was (for anybody with a coprocessor) the fastest spreadsheet you could get.
 
@Fanael I don't think JS will be noticeably slower if all the FP was emulated in software.
 
Shortly after that, Borland changed their licensing to be a bit more restrictive, including terms about how you had to add significant value if you sold anything that used their sample code.
 
Once you start swapping out to disk (as is always the case with JS), it really doesn't matter if the machine is frozen for 3 days or 1 year. You're still gonna reboot it.
 
user784668
7:40 PM
@Mysticial JavaScript is a DoS attack
 
@Fanael If you could ensure that JS didn't work on somebody's browser, that would be a denial of disservice attack.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Which reminds me of trying to run Facebook on my P3 machine.
 
how many centuries it took
 
user784668
@Mysticial I could hear the CPU be all like "AAAAUUUUGGHHHH please stop with all this crap js please please please please"
 
@Mysticial Yes, a dollar per unit, but when you make QTY 1 million that is 1 million of profit on that product you are eating if its not necessary
 
user784668
7:44 PM
@milleniumbug I actually managed to log in and use the chat.
 
user784668
@crasic You can up the price by $3 and that's 2 millions of profit instead.
 
@Fanael The pricing is already determined before the BOM is set in stone
you have a mfg budget to hit
Connectors are stupidly expensive
 
user784668
@milleniumbug It's not an enjoyable experience, but it's usable.
 
$12 for highest end 24 bit ADC
$24 for the board-to-board connector to attach it to the compute board
 
user784668
@crasic $9001 to prevent the ADC from flashing into the enemy team
 
user784668
7:52 PM
</unfunny league joke>
 
What's ADC? I thought it was the add-with-carry instruction.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Attack Damage Carry ofc
 
user784668
@Mysticial Analog-to-digital converter
 
I've been poisoned by x86.
 
@Mysticial Analog to Digital Converter
Analog sampling sensor
 
7:59 PM
@crasic ASS?
 
@Mysticial No thats ASSembly
:P
 
@crasic PCIe connectors aren't that expensive, and the difference in price between an x8 and an x16 is lower still. To give a specific example, Arrow lists a Samtec x8 connector at $6.43, and (the otherwise identical model of) x16 at $8.58. So, okay, it's basically $2 instead of $1, but still a pretty small percentage of the cost of a server mobo.
 
@JerryCoffin What do you think the BOM is on that server Board? I wouldn't be surprised if that is one of the more expensive connectors
Any BOM line >$1 is subject to review in any organization
 
@crasic Byte Order Mark?
 
@Mysticial Something like that
 
8:01 PM
@Mysticial Bill of Materials
 
@JerryCoffin Oh.
Speaking of which, someone in the office tried to deliver a retail boxed i9 7940X to me yesterday. I wasn't expected it so he took it away. And now it's back.
People just throw around expensive hardware around like it's an office pen.
 
@crasic I think it's safe to guess that the BOM is (quite a bit) higher than it is for a consumer mobo.
(and, as previously mentioned, consumer mobos frequently include a number of x16 connectors that only really support up to x8 connections).
 
@JerryCoffin I actually wonder which is more price sensitive. Enthusiasts buying consumer hardware, or big companies buying servers?
 
8:30 PM
so
any idea if the legal action against net neutrality repeal will win out?
 
no idea
My guess is no.
 
8:44 PM
@JerryCoffin the issue is almost never the board, but rather the CPU which has limited lanes
 
9:32 PM
@Mysticial I would assume big companies due to QTY. 1% is noise to a consumer but millions to a big datacenter company. That being said, cost of Ownership if more than just the initial cost of purchase.
But in any case the real big fish make their own servers too
Its cheaper to pay a premium for your own server design if it, e.g. integrates with your cooling and power management SCADA, and has exactly the specs you need for your server farm
When I toured one of our PCB suppliers they showed us a 64 layer monstrosity with 8 cpu slots. BGA on BGA chipsets, the thing was so heavy you couldn't lift the board by any side, had to be mounted in the case using a custom fixture
 
Hey yall!
@Puppy I've actually heard a constructive argument for why Net Neutrality is bad and good from both sides at this point...
 
@VermillionAzure Don't need NN if last mile providers were regulated under title 2
 
Don't know what that is lol
 
The problem is the highway robbery that is the ISP. The backbone networks are pretty much completely neutral as it is.
 
9:38 PM
Title 2 = utility
like gas, electricity
 
I know. I know the protections as well
 
Have you been to a country were there is tiering?
 
It doesn't affect folks like the ones who hang out on SO
 
BTW I am for net neutrality as it stands right now despite the possible downsides of it
 
9:39 PM
open internet will be available
but your regular joe schmoe. When given the option, would rather pay 20 pesos for unlimited facebook than 100 pesos for unlimted everything else
 
I dunno if that's how it works out in practice, though
 
Facebook is a defacto ISP, providing free "metered internet" to their party
 
Is that how it actually works?
 
Thats how it was in the Philipines
 
9:41 PM
Special, 10 pesos facebook for a month on your phone!!!
Yeah as a westerner, 100 persos for 2 weeks internet was cheap
 
That also means that companies can control what services consumers use
 
but all the locals, only used facebook and sms
 
Pricing and making certain special services "special" is not a good thing for political means and mass control -- things we tend to be against in America, right?
BTW I'm in Hawaii, so hi!
Additionally, in places where there is no ISP competition, it will allow them to limit the packages further and stop startups from receiving service from those who are not paying for other websites
 
Every convenience store you see something like that
phillipines telecom in a nutshell
that being said, they increased coverage 10x in just a few years
but still
FREE FACEBOOK
 
@crasic The same law that allows them to do deals like this are also the same ones that allow them to jack up the prices. You know this is the best outcome of this
We are looking at the worst possible outcome with law, because law can be twisted if given enough room to look at things
...which always seems to be the case
 
9:44 PM
@VermillionAzure Sure, but the outcome is that half the third world thinks internet = facebook
Which is pretty... sad?
@VermillionAzure The startups are the biggest problem
I'm not concerned with ATT metering Netflix
Netflix will pay either way
but they will also pay to keep ATT from selling the same deal to competitor
 
@crasic This is about freedom of speech as well, BTW. If no ISP will support to carry a carrier, that also gives them the power to form a coalition to block entire content providers
And where's the law that says, "at least one ISP must offer service to a government website at a reasonable price."
Packages like, "shun the government -- no .gov addresses possible here!" are legal under this model
 
sup
I'm drunk
hi @VermillionAzure
 
@BartekBanachewicz Net neutrality opinion, Haskell master?
And hey Bartek
 
@VermillionAzure FCC can suck a dick
also I'm hardly a Haskell "master", there's waaaaaaaaaaa....aaaay too many people waaaa... (you know the drill)....ayy better than me
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol :)
 
9:54 PM
@VermillionAzure That's true
 
10:13 PM
Net neutrality is over. That's the capitalism you deserve. Gotta drink to that.
 
Decided to plot output of ping (interval of 10ms) during file upload. It nicely shows that TCP cubic is being used by my OS.
 
10:46 PM
@StackedCrooked Wow. Especially circa 15000 you get nearly a perfect cubic curve. Nice!
 
Yep.
@JerryCoffin The cubic curve covers a period of ~7 seconds.
 
I don't get what am I looking at
is the part where the cubic curve is the part when you send the file?
 
@milleniumbug I was sending this file the whole time.
@milleniumbug Basically, TCP sends data faster than the network can handle. This causes buffers to fill up and eventually overflow (resulting in packet drops). When TCP detects that packets are lost it will slow down and then ramp up the speed again. (This is why the graph keeps going up and down.)
With ping it's possible to measure buffer load, since higher load means higher latency.
So it allows observing the working of TCP's congestion avoidance algorithm.
 
@StackedCrooked Pretty neat graph
 
ok, I think I get it now
the sudden drops is when the buffers are dropped so the new ping packets arrive quicker?
 
10:58 PM
looks like I need a new phone
besides my phone is 3 yo
 
When TCP detects the loss it stops sending for a while allowing the buffer to drain. This reduces the queueing delay of the ping packets.
You can easily reproduce this experiment. Just run ping while uploading a file and then plot the results. (Using
ping interval of 0.01 seconds does require root permissions though.)
 
@StackedCrooked So this means it is OS delay adding to ping, not network congestion?
You are measuring, indirectly, the kernel packet queue?
I mean, obviously tied to congestion, but the time "on the wire" is not what is represented by the graph.
 
@crasic Partially. But mostly buffer load inside your router or modem.
@crasic Yeah, it's round-trip time, not one-way latency.
 
@milleniumbug Note the (rather long) low, flat section shortly before the cubic curve. That's being detected as congestion. Because of it, the TCP stack "thinks" that "oh, I've overflowed the buffers on the far end. I'd better slow down". Since that lasted quite a while, it slows down quite a lot, then ramps back up (the cubic curve part).
 
should I get a galaxy 8 & an iphone 8?
I need phone to test apps :x
 
11:13 PM
oh, and the reason why we can use ping to measure is that it uses ICMP, but the packets are sent through the same queue as the TCP packets do
and are sent through the same network
 
@milleniumbug Your PC sends the packets to the router over your LAN. Your LAN is very fast so the OS queue will be small. It's when the packets arrive at your modem that the congestion starts to form (since your internet speed is usually much lower than your LAN)
So the graph is more likely to reflect buffer size inside your modem.
 
I don't get to spend much time playing with networking
but every time I have a chance to use wireshark I'm blown away by the amount of analysis available
 
@milleniumbug Yep.
 
11:30 PM
i.stack.imgur.com/VEFPW.png looks like a heartbeat :)
 
go to the doctor
 
(pinging an external server and sending a file to the same server)
 
@milleniumbug That's the classic TCP "saw tooth".
@milleniumbug What's cool that you can see the halving of the RTT on each loss (from 80ms to 40ms). (TCP must halve it's congestion window every time congestion is detected. So basically halving it's maximum number of packets in flight. Resulting in half the latency. In my graph it's a little different because the Cubic algorithm reduces the window to 80% of its original size rather than halving it).
 
@CaptainGiraffe @BartekBanachewicz @orlp Jacob Collier did a nice thing again
I believe it was live-streamed earlier this evening. I missed that myself.
@Telkitty your business is losing money
 

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