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nwp
7:00 PM
Because if you make a mistake your system crashes instead of just a program.
Not necessarily always, but usually.
 
@nwp the first valid point imo I heard so far
 
Ven
also kernel modules have limited stack space
also switching between kernel and user space is slow
 
@Ven the communication between KS and US is fairly limited and only doine at very specific moments.
 
nwp
Also installing starcraft isn't as easy as downloading the installer and running wine StarCraft-Setup.exe :(
 
make a fork of wine and call it vodka :D
 
nwp
7:06 PM
Maybe I should use my old laptop. It's like 10 years old which is like 10 years ahead of whatever starcraft requires to run on.
 
Ven
you polish you
@nwp you're on linux?
it works fine on mac
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn it depends on how MUCH of C++ you want in KM, things like constexpr basic RAII etc are all easy. Things like std::vector become a major issue
 
Ven
but i guess if you're using wine you're on linux :c
 
nwp
yeah
 
@Mgetz absolutely vectors :) Please elaborate on why that would be an issue
 
nwp
7:06 PM
maybe the mac version is easier to get to work
 
Ven
the mac version is just... using the battle.net app lol
at least i think so
 
basically, dynamic allocation is difficult (is heap manager initialized? you want paged or non-paged memory? and so on), static constructors are difficult (when are they supposed to be called?), throwing exceptions is difficult (need to allocate memory, and also all the implicit environment required)
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn because most OS's want you to allocate in pools and keep track of what type of memory it is so the OS can page things out. Exceptions cause issues for the same reasons, as do vtables
because if the memory is paged out it causes major issues if you try to jump to it
instead what you'd probably do is kernel::vector<T, POOL_TYPE>
for what it's worth MS uses C++ in the NT kernel, just a limited subset
 
@milleniumbug how does userspace so easily deal with dynamic memory allocation if the KS may fail on doing that?
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn virtual memory is a thing in user space, KS has to live inside of the VMspace of the process that's currently active on that CPU
 
7:11 PM
Once again sorry for the stupid questions.
Why should I care about the exceptions you are speaking about?
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn Because kernelspace's job is to make it easy for userspace
 
^^ from my "real" camera. Not the iPhone shit.
Pictures are deceiving since when you look at it in real life, it's just a tiny ring.
 
yeah no
 
@milleniumbug no?
 
7:15 PM
check out the docs and the flags parameter
 
@Mgetz So far as I understood the issue is that cpp uses a lot of dynamic memory allocation. For a reason I can't totally understand, dynamic memory allocation is not OK in KS.
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn eh, not as much as C does. Actually at least on linux the bigger issue is stack size.
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn so when you allocate memory in KS you're literally allocating a page in actual ram via the memory manager
 
I am starting to be confused...
the issues cpp code gives me in KS are: exceptions and dynamic memeory allocation
 
Memeory allocation is hard.
 
and next to this there is something related to how exactly memory is allocated
 
7:18 PM
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn not really surprised, entire books have been written about how kernels work. it's not like everything can be explained in a single chat conversation
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn it's far far more complicated than that there are other features like vtables that cause issues too
@milleniumbug I spent over a year just learning about kernel mode and there are still things I don't fully understand
 
I have a fairly good understanding how low level hardware and software works: stacks, paging etc...
it just seems to be a bit unstructured for me so far
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn do you understand virtual memory though?
paging is not virtual memory
 
@Mgetz yes
@Mgetz yes I know
 
it's related to it, but not the same
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn tl;dr; in kernel mode you're building the house from scratch, in the middle of outer space... a lot of things need to be done very precisely, you can do them in any language you want. But you have to spend the time to build the basic environment first, and that's annoying.
 
7:21 PM
so far I have keywords: dynamic memory allocation, exceptions, paging, pools
 
so there is nothing stopping you from using all of C++ in kernel mode, but it'll be really annoying to get there
 
let s put it the other way:
if I was able to compile a cpp program in KS and in that cpp program I were to write: std::vector<int> a; a.push_back(33);
what could go wrong?
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn you could have had an interrupt between declaration and the push_back that paged out the memory for a
 
in C I can perfectly use kmalloc without any problem AFAIK
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn and if you implement vector in terms of kmalloc you might be fine insofar as you avoid v-tables
 
7:25 PM
after you figure out what type of memory you need, yes
also: what will happen if the memory allocation fail
C++ says "throw an exception" :P
 
OK so the issue is that the kernel contains entire libraries for C, which take care of all the stuff like interrupts, which avoid memory being paged out etc. While for C++ I don't have all those nice libraries, I can start by writing them myself (hence: "building the house from scratch")

Is that correct?
 
...oh wait
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn it actually doesn't contain the cstdlib
they implement their own
 
Xeo
@Mysticial @StackedCrooked A bit delayed thanks to just being back from vacation, but still: Weekly reminder to continue watching Made in Abyss. The newest episode was so good. Ozen is a great character. I love her design.
 
^ check out the flags parameter for kmalloc, it's fuuuuuuuuuuuun
 
7:27 PM
@Mgetz I expected an answer like "yes that s correct" or "no not correct, because"
 
because cstdlib calls the kernel
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn it doesn't contain the cstdlib because the cstdlib assumes it needs to make system calls, in kernel mode there is nothing to call IN TO
 
layering violation
 
@Mgetz so my answer was totally incorrect.
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn you have to build the house either way, there are actually posts on the internet from people that have done it, even so far as running C++ in kernel mode
with exceptions etc
 
7:31 PM
do you think saying "I would never punch a woman" is insulting to women?
 
"try not to punch a woman" challenge
 
Specifically, it's a condescending expression of the male empowerment and extremely strong belief that women could never raise to actually harm them physically or require force to be stopped.
 
@Mgetz I ll try to summarize it again... : "the issue is that the kernel doesn t contain cstdlib, which is a fancy library for cpp code. This library allows me to do all the dynamic memory allocations etc I want without worrying to much"
yes/no ?
 
It suggests that a woman will always be the lesser one in a fight despite numerous women possesing skills and strength surpassing a lot of males. It denigrates them and downplays their abilities.
IMHO.
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn no, it's a lot more complicated than that. I would suggest you look into how NT and Linux allocate memory. While that's only part of the issues
 
7:33 PM
@milleniumbug I just really wanted to argue with someone ;)
 
@Mgetz thanks for giving a clear answer to my question :). What is NT?
 
check out "Windows Internals" by Mark Russinovich
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn the kernel for all modern windows systems
NT is not Windows, WIN32 is not NT
just like Linux is not GNU/Linux
 
@Mgetz so part of the issue lays in the fact that I will have in my C++ code to do all the memory allocation manually because there is no inter alia cstdlib in KS?
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn not necessarily, it's just a lot more complicated, you need to be able to understand how the memory is going to be used in a far more granular way than a user space developer would care
 
7:35 PM
8 mins ago, by milleniumbug
^ check out the flags parameter for kmalloc, it's fuuuuuuuuuuuun
 
@Mgetz ok that s clear. Why do I need to care? Because randomly during the execution of my program, some memory may be paged out due to an interrupt?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I wouldn't punch a woman.
I wouldn't punch a man either.
I mean, I better just not get into a fight, I would just get beaten.
 
@Morwenn Fair enough. Doesn't answer the question though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You really like to talk don't you
 
@EnnMichael yes
 
7:38 PM
@Mgetz when writing eg kernel space drivers in C for hardware I don't need to car that much about how the memory is being used.
imo it is relatively straightforward once you have done it a few times.
 
are kernel space drivers still a thing?
Or is it like super low-level stuff the OS needs to perform basic functions
 
@BartekBanachewicz It depends what is implied by the person telling "I wouldn't punch a woman", but most of the time it's indeed employed in a denigrating and generally sexist way.
Context & stuff.
 
@milleniumbug I have read the link you posted. What is the point you are trying to make with that?
 
6 mins ago, by Mgetz
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn not necessarily, it's just a lot more complicated, you need to be able to understand how the memory is going to be used in a far more granular way than a user space developer would care
 
when writing eg kernel space drivers in C for hardware I don't need to car that much about how the memory is being used.
imo it is relatively straightforward once you have done it a few times.
 
7:42 PM
@Morwenn Why do you think so? I've mostly seen it used as "Some fucked hit a woman, he's such a lowlife, I would never do that"
 
@milleniumbug why should I care more in C++ than I would in C when being in KS?
 
@EnnMichael so they mean well but still come off as denigrating
 
@EnnMichael But why would you never do that? ^^
 
So you two think it's degrading to women to say that you'd never punch one?
 
I thought I made myself clear
12 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
It suggests that a woman will always be the lesser one in a fight despite numerous women possesing skills and strength surpassing a lot of males. It denigrates them and downplays their abilities.
 
7:45 PM
I think that is
Nuts
 
@Mysticial Can you post iPhone shit as well?
 
So you're implying that generally a woman can punch a man just like a man can punch a woman?
Or what?
 
@EnnMichael A certain individual, yes.
 
My god
 
Sure.
 
Ven
7:46 PM
@EnnMichael I'm implying neither should punch each other
 
personally, I would start with the "Don't punch anybody" approach
 
Ven
Stop punching people, you twats.
 
Then why are women victims of domestic violence in like 80% of the cases
 
lol nice try
 
but if I decided to punch somebody, I'd like to think that I would not consider their gender as part of that decision
 
7:47 PM
@Ven <3
 
@EnnMichael Differing cultural and gender norms?
 
Ven
@Morwenn <3
 
lack of proper enforcement?
 
then again, the punching is fairly irrelevant, psychological/mental torture can go a long way
 
@Puppy Why do they need enforcement? They can defend themselves is what you said
 
Ven
7:48 PM
@EnnMichael I don't know where you got that number from? I remember reading a report form 2014 which said men were victims more often (in countries that don't consider women to be a lower form of life ofc)
 
@EnnMichael Sounds like you're ok with the remaining 20%?
 
@Puppy So a woman being bullied is... a cultural thing? Interesting
 
@EnnMichael Er, hell no.
 
Ven
@EnnMichael are you arguing for guns here
 
@Puppy So then how is it degrading
 
7:48 PM
the correct response to domestic violence isn't to punch back, it's to call the police.
this is true regardless of the genders of any of the individuals involved.
 
I have a tiny penis
 
@EnnMichael It certainly can be.
 
@EnnMichael also, consider a situation where violence is not reported because "hahaha a woman is punching you"
 
Ven
@milleniumbug I remember a clip about that
 
also applies to rapes
 
Ven
7:49 PM
from some tv show
 
@fredoverflow Here it is during totality. But it wasn't able to focus. So the entire corona ring got blurred into a blob.
 
just one simple example of why reported domestic violence rates may be culturally influenced
 
Ven
youtube.com/watch?v=7PR5ryhnYtQ for what @milleniumbug says
 
Xeo
that looks like you just took a picture of the sun w
 
Ven
7:50 PM
There are so many issues
omg it's @Xeo
 
@Ven How the f did you get that
 
@Mysticial Okay, so the sky doesn't actually turn black :)
 
Ven
@EnnMichael if you believe people should defend themselves
 
@Xeo Exactly. Which is why I was a bit pissed at the iPhone.
 
@milleniumbug very good point
 
7:51 PM
@Ven Someone in the chat said that women can punch men just like men can punch women - so they can defend themselves, no?
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Now, more importantly - did you watch Made in Abyss 7?
 
@fredoverflow It wasn't as dark as I thought it would be. But this eclipse wasn't a particularly large one. The path was only 70 mi. wide. So there's plenty of back scattering from the surrounding area.
 
@EnnMichael Being able to doesn't make that the right thing to do.
 
@EnnMichael exists != forall. "There are some women capable of that", not "generally women can do that".
 
it would be much better if they didn't need defending in the first place.
 
7:52 PM
@Xeo lolno
 
Ven
@EnnMichael no that's a strawman. he talks about physical strength, you're talking self-justice
you're just strawmanning
 
Xeo
@Mysticial I've been on vacation for a week and I've watched it - you're slacking!
 
and even in the second place, it would be better for them to use law enforcement to get proper justice
 
@BartekBanachewicz But it is generally degrading?
 
smacking your husband back is unlikely to be as effective as a prison cell
 
7:53 PM
@Puppy Are you actually out of your mind
 
Ven
you're the one recommending punching back
 
well, he can't punch a prison cell back, at least not very effectively, for one thing
 
Ven
clearly you're the one out of your mind
 
And defending yourself doesn't necessarily imply hurting the other person anyways
 
for two thing, having a criminal record like that can fuck you up for the entire rest of your life, not just the next few days
 
Ven
7:54 PM
@EnnMichael you literally talk about punching back
 
@Ven Hey I won't dispute that! But I think you guys are taking the whole "gender equality" thing to all the wrong places
 
@milleniumbug would it be possible for you to answer this last question please? https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/38791513#38791513

I m rereading the entire discussion to put everything together
 
Ven
@EnnMichael well i think boxing us all in the same line of thought as Bartek is the true mistake here.
 
Oh yeah... my bad
Bartek is the... one
 
I wish I could give my input « as a woman » to the discussion but I'd be downright trolling x)
 
7:55 PM
Yeah
You're the only girl here
 
@Morwenn also convenient
 
Ven
@Morwenn fais-toi plaisir la mie
 
@Puppy Yeah, you would know
What's the last time you've been out of your house
 
today
 
Lies
 
7:56 PM
@EnnMichael the joke tm
 
Ven
:tm:
 
@Morwenn I know, I know
 
Ven
are we going for "NERDS" jokes now
 
@EnnMichael to the capable ones, yes
 
YEEE
 
7:57 PM
@EnnMichael very relevant to the discussion :)
 
if you said "all men are incapable of being tender and kind" it would be equally denigrating
 
@milleniumbug What's the last time you've been out of your house
 
today
 
@Ven J'vais aller me faire un yaourt alors.
 
@EnnMichael the thing about equality is that it doesn't just apply where you want it to
 
Ven
7:58 PM
@Morwenn avec de la mie ?!
 
D:
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, but it doesn't apply 100% of the time either
 
Ven
D'ailleurs j'ai du saucisson sec auvergnat à finir. Tu fais bien de me le rappeler.
 
@Ven *-*
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...Or do you actually think it does
 
7:59 PM
@EnnMichael not saying that. You should stop strawmanning.
 
Kay, I asked
@BartekBanachewicz And you should stop being a loser
 
@EnnMichael the point I made was that it was exactly like the other generalizations of women made by men, and I think it should be considered just as such
 
dropping to ad hominems as usual, I see
 
@EnnMichael Oh I'm perfectly fine being a loser, thank you
 
nwp
@Mysticial Chemtrails! Did you spray vinegar to disperse them?
 
8:01 PM
@milleniumbug that's basically where I should proclaim "I win", but really what you (others) said was even more true&important.
 
@nwp I was definitely not the only one pissed at the airplane that few near the sun 10 min. before totality.
But it didn't really have a large impact on the visibility.
 
@milleniumbug Fuck you
 
@EnnMichael Deal with it :P
 
this has gone past the point of being a discussion
btw Bartek
 
8:03 PM
I thought you were a worthless human being when it came to gender equality and other things
did you become a real human being or am I remembering somebody else?
 
oh shit...
 
@Xeo Cool, that looks like a sword!
 
Xeo
other people think so too
 
8:05 PM
@Puppy I always were a real human being, with all the deficiences involved
that being said
Jun 16 at 21:15, by Jerry Coffin
@VermillionAzure Bartek is another of my sock-puppets.
 
@Xeo I didn't know they used chemtrails against eclipses ;)
 
I dare show my face here again
 
@Mysticial Can you find and post a photo of how an Eclipse actually looks like in real life?
 
^^ That's exactly the way it looked in person.
A tiny ring, somewhat hard to see.
 
All I see is smartphones lol
 
8:15 PM
When you zoom in on the camera, the auto focus and lighting adjustments make the "artificial looking" closeups.
We couldn't take any selfies because the sun was almost directly overhead so there was no frame of reference to focus on.
But some friends of mine in Oregon (where the eclipse was low on the horizon) were able to.
 
Wait a minute... did IBM name their product Eclipse because they didn't like SUN Microsystems?
 
So while I had the greatest eclipse (0.5mi north of center line, 2 miles from point of greatest duration), it was too high in the sky for any good selfies.
 
I don't get the point of selfies.
 
the usual use case for selfies is "hey I was there, and this is a proof"
2
 
8:21 PM
Also, 2 min. 40 sec. isn't really long enough to run down a long list of fallback plans.
I was half looking up at the ring and half looking around me at the environment and listening to all the animals and insects freak out.
 
@milleniumbug to which my response would be, if you say you've been there, cool, if you feel you need to prove it, then I must question everything else about you that you don't offer photos of, you dirty cheating bastard
 
@fredoverflow Partly reappropriate your image, and sometimes learn to be more confident in how you look :p
 
Xeo
Chemical Plant Zone was the stuff of nightmares in my childhood
that fucking drowning sound
the BGM was really good tho
 
@thecoshman it's also used that way too, unfortunately
 
8:35 PM
@fredoverflow And for first time viewers like me, you'll lose the first 30 seconds just staring at it in awe.
 
Anybody stoked about this? Only a couple more weeks to go...
@Mysticial So have you planned your next eclipse yet? :)
 
I've seen a transit of Venus, a partial solar eclipse, two total lunar eclipses, and now a total solar eclipse. Still need to find an annular eclipse.
@fredoverflow lolno
The 2024 total eclipse is a given regardless of whether I'm still in Chicago.
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn You have to realise there's kernelspace, and there's kernelspace. There are things like interrupt handlers where you are limited in what you can do and how long can you do it, there is a high level where it's almost like userspace, and there's low-level.
If you can't throw exceptions, but you must handle memory failures, you can't use v.push_back(33); because it has no way to report a memory allocation failure (it returns void)
 
Now I need to go back to sleep. Driving non-stop from 4pm to 8am takes a toll.
 
Ven
I'd be too scared to do that tbh
 
8:50 PM
@Mysticial I know what you mean. I had to drive ~1000km the past few days -___-
Sometimes I fear that I'll just fall asleep and crash my car before I find somewhere to rest.
 
Ven
pls no ; _ ;
 
Wanking while driving helps staying awake.
 
@Morwenn be careful not to confuse the sticks though :P
 
@Ven I remember a few times where I wondered whether I could make it to the next rest area. It's a bit terrifying yet you still feel like you're going to fall asleep.
@milleniumbug xD
 
@Morwenn it's just plain stupid
driving tired is as dangerous as driving drunk
 
8:56 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It's driving on the highway that makes me feel asleep.
 
@Morwenn To see the eclipse?
 
Sometimes I just drive for an hour, and I feel like sleeping. I don't drive when I'm already tired.
@fredoverflow Nope, to renew my prescription for hormones. The doctor is ~400km away from where I live.
 
Do you live in an igloo or something? :)
 
@fredoverflow Very few people actually prescribe hormones to trans people in France, and I do live in a pretty remote region.
 
Why, is it illegal?
 
9:01 PM
@fredoverflow No, but there is no official treatment, and doctors aren't trained nor used to deal with the issue. It's not difficult from a technical point of view, but new doctors are a bit afraid to do the wrong thing.
So specialists became ultra-specialists even though they don't even handle trans people the same way. It's a bit dumb :/
 
@milleniumbug Thanks for your answer! I didn't know you couldn t throw exceptions in kernel space
 
user784668
10:01 PM
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn There's no real reason for the inability to throw exceptions, you can certainly make that work if you're writing your own kernel.
 
user784668
Mostly just a matter of porting libgcc and libstdc++ because they do most of the heavy lifting.
 
user784668
In most existing kernels you can't because the machinery just isn't there.
 
10:32 PM
@Fanael theoretically speaking if one could successfully port them, it would totally be possible to write c++ in kernel space without worrying about anything?
 
10:44 PM
Those variants are not recursive. You define a recursive_variant that looks like it should be named recursive_wrapper. But it isn't used. If you had used it, it would have the exact same problem because it requires the template argument T defined to be a complete type as well, AFAICT. — sehe 15 secs ago
@fredoverflow Nah. To kill a mockingbird
 
user784668
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn Without worrying about anything? No. It's still kernel space.
 
@Fanael worrying less?
 
user784668
@milleniumbug Interrupt handlers happen to have a userspace equivalent in signal handlers.
 
nobody likes signal handlers
 
@Fanael what do you mean by machinery?
 
11:01 PM
This code compiles and works. — Michaël Roy 2 mins ago
trolololol - miss the point much. Wow.
"this code compiles" is a low bar
 
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