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10:00 PM
@JonathanGuthrie So basically a "special" engine to run OpenView, or whatever they call the network management software nowadays? (or is it now just part of Synergy?)
 
The bits that run the box are actually 24-port redundant 10Gigabit switches.
Among other things
OneView is the management software that runs on the Composable Infrastructure Modules.
I don't have anything to do with that part, I just write the software that manages power and cooling and the management network.
Well, me and a dozen other people.
 
So the FLM hardware is more or less like a bigger version of what they used to sell as "lights out management" cards? (i.e., a management network that keeps tabs on health of attached computers, controls their power, and so on)?
Oh, I'm too slow at typing--I guess you just pretty much said that. Sorry, I'm a bit slow at times...
 
It's okay.
I'm probably using too much mental bandwidth for my part of the conversation.
(I'm trying to figure out custom actions for Google Mocks. Lucky me.)
 
@JonathanGuthrie That does sound like...fun. Yeah, I'm sure that's the word I wanted.
 
I'm resisting the temptation to just write a fake instead of using GM.
Okay, let's see if that compiles.
 
10:08 PM
I have to admit, I've never made a whole lot of use of any mocking framework. I've tried a few times, and generally given up as it seemed to add more work than it saved. It's at least mildly comforting to get some hint that I wasn't completely alone in that reaction.
 
For small tasks, it doesn't add much, but as the tests get more and more extensive you can leverage what has been done a lot more effectively.
Part of the problem is that the bulk of the software in the system is C, but Google Test is pretty seriously C++.
There's some impedance mismatch.
 
@JonathanGuthrie So you obviously need to rewrite it all in C++ to match the mocking framework! :-)
 
That was one of the comments I made in the project review a couple of months ago.
 
@JonathanGuthrie I'd start by deleting that bulk
@JerryCoffin Mocking frameworks are not that powerful when you don't have virtual everything and reflection to generate proxies/stubs
 
When I started working on this, I was too junior at this place to be comfortable criticizing the design decisions they made.
 
10:13 PM
in my company, I criticized the design decisions they made, and then it turned out they agreed with me and just hadn't figured out how to migrate yet
 
Someone else suggested moving to C++, but backed down when the powers that be resisted.
Citing lack of skill among the programmers.
 
yes, that's how you keep your programmers low-skill
 
@JonathanGuthrie Is it at least C that will compile as C++, so you can get better type checking and such?
 
We're a hardware company. What do we know about software?
 
enough to hire you and a dozen others to write and maintain it? ;p
 
10:15 PM
It has to be be C that will compile as C++ or Google Test won't take it.
 
@JonathanGuthrie Ah, I guess I should have realized that.
 
presumably only the header files actually need to compile as C++?
you can just link object files for the rest
 
I'm not comfortable discussing the details of how our unit tests are put together.
The thing is, this software team is kind of viewed as an appendage for the hardware folks.
The OneView team is more of a pure software thing.
They write in Java and there are hundreds of them.
 
@JonathanGuthrie That, at least, is a feeling to which I can relate...
 
glad to report that I work in a software-only company
 
10:19 PM
@JonathanGuthrie Oh, so you meant "pure crap Java software thing". :-)
 
@Puppy I'
I've worked for pure software companies, and I find them a lot less pleasant to work for.
 
o rly?
what did they do?
 
Mostly due to the insane schedules.
I've done like five death marches, all at pure software companies.
 
that's where we've been kinda lucky
which is that we have a couple of devs who are 10year+ at the company
and if they decide not to turn up to work, we're fucked
so the company has to maintain good relations with the developers ;p
 
Didn't stop Bridgeway. That was a miserable existence.
 
10:22 PM
only works if you use it when they decide to be wankers
 
I quit that job to be unemployed.
That's the only job I ever quit without having another one lined up.
 
@JonathanGuthrie Years ago I was involved in some patent litigation, and I seem to recall the law firms using Bridgeway software to manage the cases, or something like that. Would this be the same Bridgeway?
 
Yes, the very same. Although the case management software was something they had bought and not developed in-house.
 
The company I work for was founded by a university professor and his wife. They highly value the work-life balance. I've never felt stressed at this place.
 
@JonathanGuthrie Okay--I know nothing of it, beyond some of them talking about it as what they ran in their back-office.
@StackedCrooked Braggart!
 
10:27 PM
@StackedCrooked every place is different, and one person's heaven is another person's hell.
 
@StackedCrooked This is also true for the company that I send (most, I'm not playing favourites here) my students to. Funny thing they always want to employ way more students than I have available.
 
I have a pretty good work/life balance here.
 
@JerryCoffin I just hope I didn't trigger some kind of death flag there.
 
@JonathanGuthrie HP has certainly had that reputation for a long time (decades), though I'm sure it's had its ups and downs.
 
@JerryCoffin well, they do have the usual big company gyrations that Bob used to hate.
 
10:30 PM
I do know a number of former Compaq people who decided to move on shortly after they were acquired by HP.
 
I know a number of Compaq people who moved on to form RLX and then found themselves working for HP when HP bought the company.
 
Then again, I also know (for example) some former Sun (and before that Cray) people who decided to move on after Oracle acquired them.
 
I have a good boss. That makes a huge difference.
 
@JonathanGuthrie Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!
 
I interviewed at RLX, actually. They passed on me.
 
10:33 PM
@JonathanGuthrie So it does. I'm (currently) fairly fortunate in that respect as well.
 
@JerryCoffin you got the email address, right? I'm fixing to get ready to head out.
 
I have a good boss, that makes a huge difference. The guy planning my schedule is somewhat handicapped at arithmetic. That frustrates me the most.
 
@JonathanGuthrie Yup--you should get a test email shortly.
 
Very well then. Good luck to all, and I'll be back at some point.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Handicapped at arithmetic? As in: "what do you mean I can't schedule you for 27 hours that day"?
@JonathanGuthrie Good to see you again.
 
10:37 PM
Well he has these different contributions that should sum up to 1730.
We are currently working to find a way to make these different contributions move down from 2380, so yes pretty much.
 
@CaptainGiraffe That sounds downright scary.
 
OTOH I'm reluctant to move away from quite a few of these terms. I do have a course in .NET that is absolutely awful. I'd pay good money to get rid of that.
 
@CaptainGiraffe How much does "good money" mean? I'm always open to sufficiently lucrative bribes.
 
@JerryCoffin As a for instance, (context or bragging) there is this course that is the sole I got voted best lecturer/teacher at the entire campus last year. I can't no do that.
@JerryCoffin Good money in this case 140 hours worth of pay so about lets see $8 * 140. If you are US based. about £3000 if you are EU based.
@JerryCoffin This is likely to double if you do this in a contractor capacity.
 
@CaptainGiraffe $8/hour? Is that a typo? If I'm not mistaken, that's less than minimum wage around here.
 
10:51 PM
@JerryCoffin I was just shooting from the hip regarding min wage. What is the actual number? I was being facetious.
 
@JerryCoffin you should consider a career in Russian university the bribes are good
 
@CaptainGiraffe Currently $11.50/hour, I believe.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Not sure what constitutes a "good" bribe. As I recall, when a bribe was demanded from me in Russia, they only demanded 1000 rubles.
 
@JerryCoffin During my last semester some students paid around 45,000 rubles to pass some courses
 
@JerryCoffin funny slightly relevant story, I helped my American nephew in to a summer gig here and he is getting almost 3/4 of the money a regular gig would get him. He is happy as a larch right now.
 
for mainly 1 teacher , I believe this guy with only our group made around 450,000 rubles with other group, it's enough to buy a house or flat.
 
10:58 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I guess if you were already being paid a decent salary, that could work out to a nice bonus.
 
I should get a bitcoin address.
 
Well yeah, from my understanding russian teacher are really underpaid. That's the sad part... though I heard foreigner teachers were paid well
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I feel like I am decently paid. Not well paid.
 
except those kind of teacher make the university irrelevant
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Seems like most teachers almost every where are pretty poorly paid, considering their level of education and (usually) experience.
 
11:00 PM
In Canada they're well paid
as far as I know
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I'm from Sweden, I stay with the university because it lets me find new fun stuff to do. Not because of the pay. If the pay was less I would have left though.
 
In France I believe some might not be paid very well but they get good public service in return like housing subsidy
Being able to be paid to discover new "interesting" stuff is nice
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I'm pretty conservative though =) like expanding our programming courses to actually include 'auto r = std::make_pair', well you know. python3 stuffs, QT, gtk3. And a whole lot of algorithms stuff.
 
@CaptainGiraffe sounds more liberal than conservative
 
I was adamantly against teaching xml databases in 2007 =) I'm currently on the fence about xml/json in transit =)
 
11:08 PM
ah you meant you don't want to include new stuffs?
 
In the theory classes we argue for a strong type system, i.e. xml. In practice we want json
I can easily see a std::make_pair in json, in xml it would be hugely complex.
 
Well as long as it doesn't make the courses irrelevant. I had a course of OpenGL and computer graphics. We had to use a very old version of blender to be able to access old opengl1.5 api
I was a bit sad we didn't even touch GLSL and had to use the old pipeline which is kinda deprecated anyway
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix New stuff is my friend. That is just silly.
 
Not against old stuff as long as it's relevant
same goes for new things
 
As time itself.
 
11:19 PM
@CaptainGiraffe does that include newbies? :p
 
@CaptainGiraffe <cons><car></car><cdr></cdr></cons>
well technically you could simply call it like this <pair><data></data><data></data></pair>
you can then get data with xpath like this '//pair/data[1]' or '//pair/data[2]'
unfortunately json doesn't have an equivalent to xpath
schema validation in xml might be quite complex but a simple xml parser can be done easily
 
11:36 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix It takes a lot more time to develop an up-to-date curriculum than it does for the students to learn by trial and error. To the extent that it doesn't neglect introducing new concepts, education mostly exists to guide those trial and error learning experiences. I don't personally think there's much value in prescribing what exactly a student must know.
But on the other hand, that's a distinction I draw between training, which is intended to prepare a person for their role, and education, which is intended to help a person acquire tools for higher level problem solving.
 
I agree
In my opinion in tech it feels more like students are trained using a particular technology
 
I believe you're correct. There's a greater need for people to maintain tech than to create tech.
 
for example in Quebec almost all students are being taught Cobol/Java because that's what the corporation/government around requires
 
Cobol/Java :D
 
Cobol? Is there a large financial sector?
 
11:40 PM
not sure now, Pretty sure most COBOL mainframe have been ported to either Java or .net but hey
@Aaron3468 Well almost all system were written in cobol and require maintenance or to be ported to something else
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I'd guess there's a fair amount of COBOL that's not only still COBOL now, but nobody even has a plan for when they might port to something else.
 
the plan might be there, they have to prove the plan is worth the money otherwise they probably don't get a budget to modernize things
 
I feel sorry for the companies that don't have the manpower or time to port their Cobol.
 
what for, though? if it's working, don't touch it
 
Writing code in Cobol is like poetry.
That's what my teacher used to say
 
11:43 PM
it's only problematic when it stops satisfying your requirements
 
Nah, I'm just saying that they'll increasingly find it difficult to get the devs they need. At least if they actually hire devs and maintain the codebase.
Because it's totally different if they're still running an old system they purchased as end users and never upgraded because their needs never changed.
 
@Aaron3468 at one point it will be simpler to just start from scratch and ditch whatever was there. The biggest issue will be to extract the data that shouldn't be lost
btw, I remember Cobol had some extension for object programming!
I wish I could have a job like making a huge 3d printer that print concrete buildings or something like that.
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix COBOL is a nice language.
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Classes are new in COBOL 2003 but almost nobody uses this feature.
 
11:59 PM
@rightfold I can argue about that, but I don't remember having huge problem with it. Other than the "." operator is damn powerful
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Another teacher used to say:
 
user1804599
> The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.
 
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