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12:02 AM
One goal in my life is to never learn another programming language again. Yes, I know a new language can have nice aspects. But everything else I have learnt (at least 3-4 of them I know well) can't be totally crap.
 
@rightfold Leading at least one to claim that the standard unit of arrogance should be the "nanoDijkstra".
 
@Telkitty you should change your goals right now if you want to succeed
 
succeed in what?
 
@Telkitty reaching your goal
 
not every bit of information learned has the same value
 
12:03 AM
@Telkitty Succeed at being successful, of course.
 
@Telkitty lol, you're in for quite a surprise. Development is the art of stacking wine glasses on top of eachother, except that the wine glasses were made by the worst quality assurance team out there.
No matter what library or language you use, there's going to be many foot guns.
 
incremental value I get from learning a new language has been diminishing
 
@Telkitty You should limit yourself to learn things you actually use
I'd learn APL if I had any use for it...
 
you kind of have certain amount of freedom in choosing what you actually use
 
But technically learning "actual" language that you can speak is quite beneficial
 
12:08 AM
@Telkitty After you've learned a couple languages, they all become interchangeable. Then the only benefit is keeping up to date with new paradigms (e.g. learn Haskell or Lisp for a change of pace if you haven't touched functional as much)
 
I find it amusing to watch american movies/show and the bad guys speak a terrible russian
 
Dan
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix reminds me of Dan Soder skit
 
Or watching anime and the English is absolutely mangled
 
ahah yeah I saw that
 
Personally, I think C++, Java &C# + 1-2 scripting language(s) is a good enough skill set to have. You literally wouldn't need to learn anything else if you have in depth knowledge of the above & choose not to learn anything else.
 
Dan
12:12 AM
@Telkitty I was really hoping Java wouldn't be in that list :P
@Telkitty but I know C#, which I hear is very similar
 
Yeh, a good craftsman keeps only the tools they need, and keeps them well. Just don't be afraid to switch it up and use features that are more recent
 
@Aaron3468 absolutely hilarious
I mean, sure, not trying to belittle voice actors
 
@Dan Aside from Java being verbose, it has a great ecosystem of libraries and generic code's a bit easier than C++. It's kinda broken, but roughly as broken as C++
 
but still, quite often these english parts aren't really necessary
 
Dan
@Aaron3468 one of these days I'll learn it when I have a reason to, that day just hasn't happened yet
 
12:14 AM
totally gratuitous
so more I'm questioning the decisions of the writer/director
 
Dan
@Aaron3468 but I've been working with Elastic Stack increasingly so I can see a use case perhaps eventually popping up
 
@milleniumbug Yeah, they're really skilled actors. Just sometimes it's obvious that they're reading a script or that they don't speak English much. Sounds and syllable stress are a bit annoying
The use of words that are a few shades of meaning off the intended mark is the most grating. Rie Fu's Funny Dream is so bad for it
 
@Dan there are more java jobs available, and if we ignore top notch roles, java developers get paid pretty much the same as C++ ones for doing a much easier job
 
Dan
@Telkitty very true
@Telkitty we are mostly a python shop but recently I've been doing a project in C++
@Telkitty but we have some java/scala stuff in our stack
and corresponding devs
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah, the english pronunciation skills aren't very good, but I can understand that. I'm more annoyed with the writers who insert such gratuitous english, even when it's not even justified
It gets even more interesting when you hear very well accented english text, but with bad grammar/syntax/wording
For example these magic devices in Mahou Shojou Lyrical Nanoha
pronunciation is good, but the text is wrong (like: "I can be shot" instead of "I can be fired")
I could imagine voice actors there getting their lines and thinking to themselves "oh, c'mon, this is wrong" but not being able to say anything about it
 
12:53 AM
In general gratuitous language use isn't accurate unless the director cares enough to get a truly fluent speaker and retake until that speaker is satisfied with the accuracy of the scene
Not a common combination when you're just getting them to say something like "Banishment this world" for the cool factor >//<
 
1:35 AM
@LucDanton tu deviens fréquentable
 
@EdgyAlpaca oui alors par contre l’approche 'hohoho nos ancêtres qui utilisaient le troc' ça reste une tare
 
pourtant ça reste d'actualité, sous forme plus standardisée
(dont get me started on kleptocurrencies)
 
oh ça gêne pas vraiment le récit, le tout reste une bonne illustration et justification de la banque etc.
 
blague à part je trouve les système humains fascinants
la façon dont les choses s'auto-organisent pour donner quelque chose de "globalement efficace" c'est fou
next level of meta après les systèmes pluricellulaires mais je m'emporte
tu candidates chez Ubi Bordeaux quand ?
 
1:54 AM
@EdgyAlpaca à propos of nothing anet did manage to get automated tournaments off the ground and a good time was had by all
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix You have a use for it
 
user1804599
it'll make you learn new techniques.
 
user1804599
which is a sufficient use case for learning it.
 
@LucDanton that'll prolong the agony for a few more months!
 
@rightfold I can tell you there is no new techniques coming from APL that are going to help me with what I'm doing right now
 
2:01 AM
until Path of Exile 3.0!
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix You think.
 
> François Bayrou assure avoir démissionné de son plein gré dans une lettre anonyme retrouvée sur sa dépouille
 
@rightfold I'm pretty sure, most of my time I'm adding fields to forms and adding domain of research
 
@LucDanton At this point I don't know what games to wait for, tbh
Maybe Warcraft IV
 
I'm pretty far from doing fancy things
 
2:03 AM
@EdgyAlpaca how can you be betting on Blizzard again
 
Maybe it's time to found Luc Game Studios (name up to debate, Luctertainment maybe?)
 
user1804599
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix APL will keep you busy while an intern does your shitty job.
 
@rightfold the intern we had left the job because he found it too difficult
 
polite way of saying he had a seizure
 
I'm pretty alone doing the shitty job yet we have an other guy now but still I'm not being paid when people do my job
 
2:06 AM
@EdgyAlpaca :vv:
 
It's already good that I have a remote job otherwise it would be worse than having a shitty job
 
remote job ;_;
 
@EdgyAlpaca it’s not that great, you have to constantly change the batteries
 
@LucDanton I have absolutely no free time
 
@LucDanton no wireless charging?
 
2:11 AM
remote remote charging? now I’ve heard everything
 
@LucDanton well read a bit about induction energy... it might not be really safe unless you can direct energy
 
solar charging is a form of wireless charging
 
@Telkitty well not really you still have wires
 
if you have a large enough solar panel, with intensive sunshine, you can power a device directly
battery is only needed to store energy when there is no sun or sunshine is weak
 
with induction you don't even need batteries
you can simply emit wirelessly to power anydevice in your house for example
 
2:33 AM
I wonder how living in gigantic magnetic fields would affect people
 
@Telkitty Ever heard about the north pole?
 
The one that lives in Gdánsk? /cc @milleniumbug
(northernest polish city that came to mind, probably not the northernmost)
 
in the jargon we call that a Gdańsk meme
 
/cc @набиячлэвэли
 
j’en ai marre l’eau du robinet est tiède ._.
 
2:46 AM
"attention c'est très très tiède"
 
t’as vraiment des références pourrites
 
on ose critiquer Astérix : Mission Cléopatre en ma présence ?!
 
si tu vie en appartement, une solution simple et rapide. Prend un long tuyau peu importe mais pas trop épais. Perce 2 trou dans ton frigo et place le tuyau completement dans le frigo. Une partie est connecté à l'entré d'eau et l'autre partie reconnecte l'eau à ton réseau de tuyau.
 
/r/shittylifehacks
 
c'est claire un congélateur serait mieux /s
 
2:54 AM
@LucDanton #1stworldproblems
 
> L’auto-mise en scène des auteurs, potaches et sympathiques à souhait, mais un peu irritants à force de multiplier les selfies ou les animations à la K-2000
@EdgyAlpaca rassure toi j’ai trouvé quelqu’un avec des références pires encore
 
qui fût-ce
moment de doute pour le circonflexe
 
@LucDanton pourrites&
 
@EdgyAlpaca Télérama
@EdgyAlpaca dâns lê dôûtê, ôn n’êst jâmâîŝ trôp sûr
 
@Luc bonne chance pour ta candidature à Ubi Bordeaux btw
on est tous avec toi
 
3:04 AM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix obviously I was referring to the intensity of the magnetic field
 
 
2 hours later…
5:27 AM
-6
Q: Write four shell scripts called atm.bash (in Bourne Again shell), atm.ksh (in Korn shell) and atm.csh (in C shell) and atm.zsh (in Z shell)

VivekWrite four shell scripts called atm.bash (in Bourne Again shell), atm.ksh (in Korn shell) and atm.csh (in C shell) and atm.zsh (in Z shell) similar to the ones used in ATM machines. Essentially your script is to handle a person's savings and checking accounts and should handle the following servi...

/cc @Mysticial HW w/ formatting
 
5:50 AM
@Borgleader goddamn, lol
In other news, my RGB video card arrived today. And confirmed that I did the measurements right. There was enough clearance between the video card and the radiator to not only the figurine I intend to put in there, but also some of the larger ones as well.
June 26th can't come soon enough. All I need is mobo+CPU. Everything else is ready.
 
@Mysticial RGB video card?
 
6:10 AM
@wilx Yeah, video card with RGB lights.
 
@EdgyAlpaca Excellent film
@LucDanton Validated pun
 
lol people exchanging VS error window screenshots by mail
 
@slaphappy Very useful for copy pasting indeed. I'm in awe each time I receive that kind of bs from other teams reporting issues to us :)
 
6:26 AM
the magic is you only get the first item of the instanciation chain
 
Even better
 
7:11 AM
@EdgyAlpaca Le subjonctif me paraît ici inadapté
 
@Borgleader fixed :)
 
7:23 AM
@wilx He's finally replacing his Hercules monochrome graphics card (to make room for a figurine).
 
@JerryCoffin :D
 
@Rerito c'était recherché
 
@EdgyAlpaca Très pointu
 
@JerryCoffin Great. Now he no longer has the IRQ conflict with that Gravis Ultrasound
 
Ven
7:48 AM
Hi
 
Car broken down ... sitting here for road side assistance 😭
 
Guise, what can I use to quickly set up a benchmarking demo?
 
Youtube
 
(Using an online compiler)
As always thanks for your valuable input
 
Ven
@Rerito C++?
I don't know if godbolt has benchmarking :\
 
8:01 AM
Yeah
We use a custom made horrible code to convert dates from gregorian to "EXCEL's julian"
The "EPOCH" for excel is 1899/12/31 but somehow, excel misses 1 leap year
So you have to adjust depending on if your date is past 1900/02/28 or not
So we have some handmade conversion algorithm
And I want to benchmark it against boost.date_time
(Because I suspect the home made stuff to be poorly doing)
@Ven So yeah, C++
 
@Rerito which year did it miss?
 
@Code-Apprentice Excel assumes 1900 is a leap year while it isn't
 
@Rerito strange. I thought all computer programmers knew those exceptions
 
@Rerito I use google benchmark for my benchmarking needs.
 
That is a common CS 101 assignment, it not?
 
8:10 AM
It is very easy to setup
 
What amuses me is that they didn't correct the bug and documented instead
 
@Code-Apprentice yes
 
@Rerito yeah, I see the humor there
 
@Horttanainen If only I could download it
 
@Rerito What_ Why not?
 
8:11 AM
So does excel claim that 2100 is a leap year?
Hopefully MS will fix it by then.
 
By that time MS will control which years we call leap years and which not
 
Except some poor schmuck will be working for a company that refuses to upgrade from Office 2010.
 
New algorithm used to calculate leap years is the one used in Excel.
 
With that, I wish you good night. Early day tomorrow.
 
@Rerito Will surely be working on vs 2010 still while everyone else is using the latest C++2097 standard
 
user784668
8:59 AM
ahahahahahah GCC fail
 
user784668
movzbl  %al, %eax
xorb    $1, %ah
movq    %rax, %rdx
 
Ven
what's it trying to do?
 
user784668
@Ven Extend a byte to 64 bits and xor it with 0x100.
 
Ven
why's it xoring %ah, then, right after a movzbl on %eax?
 
user784668
xorb $1, %ah followed by movq %rax, %rdx is a classical partial register stall.
 
user784668
9:03 AM
@Ven Because a byte, being 8 bits, never has the 8th bit set, so the xor sets it?
 
Ven
ah, yeah
 
user784668
But the thing is, it should really be xorl $256, %eax instead of xorb $1, %ah.
 
user784668
Because the former writes to the whole registers, so it doesn't cause a partial register stall.
 
Ven
Thanks
 
@Fanael what are the choices of books if I choose to study assembly language more? besides the usual fiddling with code and making notes afterwards (the goal of the study is also to forget it much later)
 
9:15 AM
$360+ per service, apparently car dealerships didn't put enough engine oil at last service
 
user784668
Ok, so apparently -mtune-ctrl=partial_reg_stall causes GCC to generate xorq $256, %rax, good enough.
 
user784668
@login_not_failed Dunno, if the goal is to forget it, why even bother?
 
@Fanael it was a joke, a poor one
I mean, I do want to invest more of my time into assembly, but the latter part about forgetting it was a joke
 
user784668
@login_not_failed Intel optimization manuals and Agner's PDFs?
 
@Fanael thanks, will read it
 
user784668
9:18 AM
@login_not_failed Of course, that's assuming you already know the basics and want to learn how to actually write fast assembly.
 
Bought oil, put into car & waiting road side assistant to jump start car
 
@Fanael well, I haven't used it for a while, so I might re-read some stuff, but it's not a problem
 
Ven
Agner's PDF are really good
 
also guys I took my Peugeot for a MOT yesterday
it almost passed
 
user784668
9:34 AM
@BartekBanachewicz So it failed? Congratulations.
 
@Fanael we have 14 days to fix the stuff we missed/deliberately left/fucked up
some of those are hopefully already fixed after yesterday session
the whole exhaust needs to be renewed which is mostly a financial PITA, there's a steering fluid leak which we hope to fix by the fluid anti-leak additive, and that's p much it
some bulbs to replace and some suspension elements
 
user784668
yay
 
user784668
I just sped up some code by over 50% by replacing a 2 KB lookup table with plain code.
 
user784668
Remember kids: don't waste your data cache space!
 
Ven
9:51 AM
plain code, as in if/else? :\
 
user784668
No, as in some arithmetic.
 
@login_not_failed I read first two chapters of that reversing book I linked to you and it seems really good
 
10:13 AM
@Telkitty what year car..surely it told you "low oil" well before it "broke down"...and..how did it "break down" :/
I just remembered, u said you're old: maybe the car is older, but shouldn't you know better :p
 
@Horttanainen I read first few pages and got back to my boost::shared_futures passed to python; weekend is coming, so I'll read more for sure ^_^
 
@login_not_failed Do you celebrate midsummer day in Russia?
 
not on a country level, but many people do it by themselves :P
 
10:29 AM
Are you going drink beer till you pass out?
@login_not_failed Do you know that feeling when before starting to read a book you look up the number of pages and think 'Fuck I'll never finish this one' and then after reading 4 hours you notice that you read 15% already.
That happens to me every time and every time I am just as amazed
 
@Horttanainen not really, it's the opposite: I like when books are thick af
for me this means if the book is interesting, I'll have lots of awesomeness in one big chunk
 
@login_not_failed I like short books but somehow every book I read is around 800 pages
 
#define short 800
 
That would do it
 
and no, I'm not drinking beer till I pass out, I'll do it for whiskey, good vodka (a finnish one probably), but not for beer :D
 
10:44 AM
@login_not_failed I always drink whiskey in small sips 1 cl a time. I might develop a distaste for it if i'd get really drunk with it
I have a bottle of russian bodka (It is really written as bodka) at our summer cottage. It is slightly greenish and only used to disinfect wounds
 
@ABuckau engine oil low, so car discharged battery so user doesn't damage engine ... 2012 model car
back home now
after 3 hours drama
 
@sehe I found a summer vacation avatar for you: seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/static/relax.jpg
 
11:04 AM
> summer
 
11:15 AM
It looks like the snow is a bit wet so it its a summer picture for a Finn
 
life is what happens when you are trying to solve other problems
 
11:29 AM
@Telkitty must disable alternator too....strange.
You'd think of it was that smart it could just disable operation..not actually drain battery :/ ..glad I drive an 88' :p
 
draining battery is a bulletproof solution though
 
In combination with disabling alternator...or it wouldn't have an effect...so since Ur disabling anyway...but w.e.
While driving* ..which is 99% when the oil will go from enough to low.
 
@login_not_failed The car should drain the battery through passengers to teach them to refill engine oil early
 
@Horttanainen it's even more bulletproof!
 
12:26 PM
hmm, odd I'm getting a massive string of 302 redirects on my other computer
and fixed
very very odd
 
1:11 PM
@StackedCrooked coliru is not showing files with non-ascii text - coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/0024bb2a4b302085
 
1:22 PM
@Horttanainen well technically it would be almost true V in russian is written В that said, I'm a bit more worried about the D which should be written Д to get Водка
there is no way the liquid should be close to being green.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Well it is.
And the D is like you said. I just forgot that
 
Happy Solstice!
 
@Horttanainen I was worried that people who make our vodka lost their minds, lol
 
@login_not_failed It did look alot like D like they shaped the Д to resemble D. Or maybe it was just cursived
 
@Horttanainen either way! who cares about what is written on a bottle of booze? let it pour in! сhinks glasses in all seriousness, I actually prefer not to drink
 
1:38 PM
@login_not_failed Reads only to the chinks glasses part. Yes! glunk glunk!
So that is how you get cursived text!
 
I keep misreading pom.xml as porn.xml. Damn you, maven. And bad kerning.
 
@Horttanainen well the writing is certainly Russian but the greenish part makes me think it's not vodka you have there. May be someone added mint or something that made it green. It should be crystal clear otherwise.
 
@Fanael Are partial register stalls more expensive then non-partial register stalls?
 
2:25 PM
@fredoverflow You do realize that that the most recent processor that did partial register stalling was the Pentium III, right? By the Pentium 4, things worked differently (though you still got a somewhat simlar effect under some circumstances).
@fredoverflow But, to answer the question you actually asked: the penalty for a PRS is normally about 4 clocks.
The penalty for other stalls varies somewhat (since there are quite a few other things that can cause stalls).
 
2:43 PM
Lifestyle blogger killed by 'exploding whipped cream dispenser'
 
3:12 PM
I am a 10X developer. Everything I do takes ten times as long as I thought.
 
if there are 10X developers, by laws of symmetry, there must be 1/10 developers
1/10 developers, unite!
 
Ven
3:29 PM
@Mysticial are a certified Intel™ Xeon™ Platinium™ Expert™?
 
@EdgyAlpaca well memed fam
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Use Fixedsys Excelsior
 
user784668
3:59 PM
@JerryCoffin Distinction without a difference, you still need additional cycles to merge the partial register with the rest of the full register.
 
user784668
@fredoverflow Why would you want any kind of stall in the first place?
 
@Fanael Yes, there are real differences--both in the circumstances under which a stall happens, and the length of a stall when it does happen.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin Early Pentium M, actually.
 
user784668
Later Pentium M models inserted an additional µop in ROB instead of stalling the pipeline.
 
@Fanael Yeah, I s'pose (still P6 family, after it had been dropped from desktop processors).
 
user784668
4:08 PM
Which, coindicentally, is also what happens to the code in question on Skylake.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin Pentium M is closer to Skylake in some ways than to Pentium III though.
 
user784668
For example, it does µop microfusion.
 
user784668
But in many regards, it still is basically a Pentium Pro.
 
@Fanael how did you write that upside down dorl?
 
4:32 PM
@LucDanton y̝̯͍̹̣͚͍̋͒ȍ̦̱̯̐͆̔̏͐̕u̖͖͖̤̝ͪ̉͛̑̅̽ ̴ͣ̾d͔̚͡o̘͈̲̠͉̰͙ͦ͛̒͢n̨̞̝̫̊̋ͣ̚'̷̜̩̥͕̖̲̐͗͆ͯ̈́͋ț̳ͦ ̱̬̪̞̹͕̆̍w̛̘̠͈̣̱̖͗ͯ̿ͯͫ̉̚a̠͇͊̔ͬ̈ͫͯ̓n̹̓ͭ̍̾ͬͭ͘ṭ̤͓͉ͧ͒͊̐ͤ͆ ͉̗̜͈̖͚̲ͫt̫̺̞̺̣͉̫ͭͣ̋̈̇o̴̥̱͍̩ͩ ̛͎̥͈͒ͧͮk̀͗n̥̩̲̘͍̞͋ͨ̾̌̾͒ō͉̖̫͎̱̪̰̏̓w̴͕͍͎̠̠̮̄͆͐̊
 
4:57 PM
This must be the most french way to die
 
user1804599
5:17 PM
that is sad
 
user784668
@LucDanton Fix your keming.
 
@Fanael ...but at least as I recall, it doesn't get into any of the de-lamination stuff.
 
5:34 PM
@JerryCoffin Current processors will still do partial register stalls when writing to something like AH and then reading EAX. Likewise on Skylake, using an SSE instruction to write to the lower 128-bits of an XMM register and then immediately reading the entire YMM register will lead to another stall.
 
user784668
@Mysticial wanna laugh at GCC?
 
user784668
9 hours ago, by Fanael
movzbl  %al, %eax
xorb    $1, %ah
movq    %rax, %rdx
 
On Sandy through Broadwell, that sort of SSE/AVX mixing would freeze the entire core for ~40 cycles while it changed register states.
@Fanael Oh geez.
Granted, the stall is only 1 cycle.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Two cycles, actually -- possibly by causing a mov to not be eliminated.
 
Steam is shitting itself so hard right now
 
user784668
5:42 PM
@Mysticial That's like the cost of serializing the whole pipeline.
 
user784668
What's the cost of mixing VEX with non-VEX on Skylake?
 
@Fanael A small # of cycles (1 I believe) for the state change. But the real cost is in the false dependencies.
 
@Mysticial It can (sort of) lead to a stall, yes. At least from what I've seen, it's not much like the original PRS though. They simply decode the instruction, and insert a "sync" micro-op that depends on the partial-register write retiring, so that instruction (and its dependency chain) are all that get delayed. With the original PPro, a PRS stalled the instruction just past the decoder, so the whole pipeline stalled for ~7 clocks.
 
If you're in the bad state, all SSE instructions will still take the upper-half of the register as an input. So something like xorpd xmm0, xmm0 is no longer free.
@JerryCoffin Oh, that's a lot.
 
user784668
@Mysticial So, that's like 1 additional cycle for each instruction then?
 
user784668
5:53 PM
Or at least 1 cycle for each instruction that would otherwise be free.
 
@Mysticial Yeah--eliminating it frequently got you ~15-18 instructions executing in the previously lost time (ideally 21, but...)
 
@Fanael No, you lose all your dependency breaking instructions.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin …but there was no way to get 3 IPC on original P6.
 
user784668
@Mysticial That's potentially really nasty when in a loop.
 
@Fanael Yeah, there's a couple SO questions about it. Lemme see if I can find it.
17
Q: Why is this SSE code 6 times slower without VZEROUPPER on Skylake?

OlivierI've been trying to figure out a performance problem in an application and have finally narrowed it down to a really weird problem. The following piece of code runs 6 times slower on a Skylake CPU (i5-6500) if the VZEROUPPER instruction is commented out. I've tested Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge CP...

 
user784668
5:56 PM
@Mysticial So, for example, if you had pxor xmm0, xmm0 at the start of a loop, and it was used a lot inside the loop, you'd end up with a huge loop-carried depchain?
 
@Fanael yep
Assuming you're in the bad state that is. If you're in the clean state, it's all good.
 
user784668
@Mysticial And on SnB-BDW the cost was just the ~40 cycles when transitioning into the bad state?
 
@Fanael Uh....what?
 
~70 according to Agner Fog. But it's still only a one-time thing.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Yeah, so I'm not sure that what Skylake does is an improvement then.
 
6:01 PM
@Fanael Yeah. Now you're left with a regression that's almost impossible to debug unless you know exactly how all this shit works.
Now you have a shitty situation where any non-AVX compiled program that's dynamically linked and calls into something like libc will suffer if the system has AVX and the libc uses AVX without properly calling vzeroupper. (which apparently is the case here)
So now you need to protect yourself by calling vzeroupper after returning from any unknown extern/exported function. It's stupid.
Oh wait that doesn't work.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Does Ryzen have a similar issue?
 
If you're compiling for SSE, you can't call vzeroupper. And you will suffer once you return from the offending library call. If you're compiling for AVX, the first VEX instruction you run will clear the state up anyway.
So you're fucked.
@Fanael No because it treats each half as independent. It doesn't have any native 256-bit.
Not even move renaming.
 
user784668
@Mysticial So if I have a function like double foo(double (*f)(double, double), double some, double shit), where foo is not compiled for AVX, I'm thoroughly fucked if some f that is compiled for AVX is passed?
 
@Fanael Correct.
You can do a cpuid to check for the AVX XSAVE and then do a vzeroupper if they're both true.
It's like using a nuclear weapon to get rid of an underground rat. But it's the only way if there's no poison or water around.
 
user784668
@Mysticial According to Agner, Haswell still has a false dependency on the whole 256 bits.
 
user784668
6:12 PM
In this case, Skylake is an improvement, because you still have false dependencies, but no state change penalty.
 
@Fanael Only on the transition. There are no false dependencies in VEX code since each VEX instruction will always zero the rest of the register regardless of its size.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Of course VEX code has no false dependencies, it's legacy code that does.
 
VEX also makes it impossible to have any callee-save registers. I consider this a good thing, but the GCC guys who were defining the calling convention were somewhat pissed.
 
user784668
@Mysticial But ZMM0-ZMM31 and K0-K7 are caller-save anyway.
 
@Fanael Yes, that's because it's not possible to callee-save them.
All the YMM registers are caller-save as well for the same reason.
 
user784668
6:18 PM
@Mysticial But XMM0-XMM15 were defined to be caller-save from the very beginning of AMD64 SysV ABI.
 
If an AVX512-aware function (with dirty register state) calls into a function that's only AVX-aware. That sub-function cannot save the entire register because it doesn't know about AVX512.
@Fanael Not in Windows. So now every call into a function that uses all the YMM registers ends up saving the bottom half of XMM6-15.
Pure unneeded overhead.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Windows doesn't use SysV ABI.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Furthermore, it's Windows.
 
user784668
@Mysticial They decided to make their own ABI and now they're paying for it.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Not the first time Microsoft ABI causes unnecessary overhead, consider this: void foo(double* a, double* b, double* c, size_t length, double x, double y)
 
user784668
6:24 PM
In SysV ABI, a, b, c, length go into RDI, RSI, RDX, RCX, x and y go into XMM0 and XMM1.
 
user784668
In Microsoft ABI, a, b, c, length go into RCX, RDX, R8, R9, x and y are spilled onto the stack (!).
 
Which is why massive inlining is key on Windows. But to their credit, there are alternate calling converions like fastcall or vectorcall. But IMO, they don't do enough. All vector registers should be caller-save.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Of course, the problem with massive inlining is that you can easily blow your I$.
 
6:41 PM
@Fanael This is something that I've worried quite a bit about in my pi program as there quite often are routines with literally thousands of instructions. But as long as each instruction gets run an average of at least 10 times, and the loop bodies are "reasonably small" (< 1000), it doesn't seem to have any icache effects.
icache misses probably get hidden away pretty well by hyperthreading. And the instruction stream is pretty easy for the hardware to prefetch assuming it isn't too branchy.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Well it's x86.
 
user784668
@Mysticial You have megabytes of total cache.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Try the same on a machine with 1k total cache :P
 
If your cache is less than your register file, then I'm sure there will be other problems.
There was this article talking about how Skylake AVX512 register file is as large as an atom core.
 
user784668
@Mysticial It's bigger than the register file though.
 
6:55 PM
@Borgleader I am a 10X developer: I know that the Roman numeral for 10 is X.
6
 
user784668
@Mysticial A small part of a high-performance, high-power chip is as large as a slow, low-power chip? Who would've thunk?
 
user784668
@Mysticial AVX512 architectural registers are like 2 KB in total, aren't they?
 
@Fanael Yeah. And there's probably something like 200 of them physically.
 
@Mysticial SIMD?
 
user784668
@Mysticial Shit, that already approaches the size of L1.
 
user784668
6:58 PM
@Mysticial Like, 12 KB L1 would be small, but not outrageously so.
 
@fredoverflow Which means 10X == 1010 and thats binary for 10, so 10 all the way down.
 
@Fanael they may also go on to the stack for kicks and giggles
 
@Fanael This is one of the problems that I'm running into in my pi program with the AVX512 port. There's a number of algorithms in there that make the SIMD vector a first-class citizen. So it literally works natively on vectors. The problem is that from SSE -> AVX -> AVX512, they quadrupled the size of the "word", without increasing the size of the L1 or the per-thread LLC. This is leading to problems with some of the blocking algorithms that work on groups of 512 or 1024 words at a time.
 
user784668
@Mysticial What kind of problems?
 
@Fanael I can't interpolate say 256 blocks of 1024 words each without spilling the LLC.
 
7:04 PM
@Fanael hmm I wonder if you couldn't use them as a developer controlled cache...
 
user784668
@Mysticial Oh, so shit's spilled to RAM and you become bottlenecked by that?
 
Reducing the block sizes leads to under-utilization of the execution ports. But that's probably preferable to cache misses.
Or to put it simply: The assumptions and design choices I made back in 2011 aren't entirely applicable to 2017 hardware.
 
user784668
@Mysticial Rewrite it!
 
user784668
Actually, rewrite it in Rust, so you can use zero-cost abstractions and fearless concurrency!
 
user784668
Spoiler: don't, SIMD in Rust is a joke.
 
7:13 PM
@Fanael That won't be necessary. But it will take a number of refactorings to make it block sizes adjustable.
Not something I'll be targeting the first AVX512 release.
 
@Mgetz The most French way to die would involve cheese.
 
@Morwenn and probably wine... but this was still a pretty french death as it invalid Pastry
 
user784668
@Morwenn merde au fromage
 
@Mgetz Needs more butter.
 
@Morwenn and truffles
 
7:22 PM
@Mgetz That's way too expensive D:
 
@Morwenn this is france, they go all the way... or they don't bother
 
@Mgetz That's untrue.
Oooh, apparently Clang 5.0 works. I was just too dumb/tired to make it work yesterday.
 
nwp
7:52 PM
I'm envious.
 
Why?
 
nwp
I only have clang 3.9
 
:p
I don't have any Clang to be honest. It's just for my tests on Travis.
 
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