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01:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

8:01 PM
Post-decrement in stolen code. Nooooooo.....
 
@Morwenn what's the problem with post-dec op?
 
@набиячлэвэли Copies, sometimes frowned upon, globally horrible with input iterators, and unnecessary most of the time, unless you want to skip a few characters to write right and left.
 
Well, I have just sent a bit less than business-like email reply to job proposal. It had expressions like "pank environment" (misspelt "punk") and "working alongside a lion" and "we are looking for a person who is not motivated by wage and benefits but the fact that his work is useful and helps to save lives". I guess I am not going to get the job.
 
@Morwenn So the usual stuff
 
Notice the screens...
 
8:05 PM
@набиячлэвэли Well, yes. IIRC I read stuff about some iterators not implementating post-operations at all, so...
 
@wilx Lots of cards, lots of jokers.
 
@Mgetz Heh.
@Mgetz For me it is usually "my tests are deploying and running." :)
 
How do you "deploy" tests
 
For me it's more like « the nice display is being computed for the SAR ultra-wide fine, then I'll need to load the AIS ».
 
8:10 PM
@набиячлэвэли We have home grown test bed provisioning and deploying solution that provisions all the necessary VMs, install all the parts of the product and necessary loads for the product ({Tomcat,WebSphere,WebLogic}+apps, jMeters) and executes series of tests on the product.
 
Lots of buzzwords
sounds like you can't just run tests on your machibe
 
@набиячлэвэли I can, many of them, not all. But the official automated testing has to run...well, automated and thus uses this thing.
Some of the tests involve provisioning and installing 30 VMs for the loads and 12 physical machines for the app itself.
 
@wilx What the fuck is your app if it runs on 12 hard machines
 
@набиячлэвэли CA Application Performance Management
I do not actually run the biggest test, just some other smaller ones.
 
Is "the biggest test" deploying to production?
 
8:21 PM
@набиячлэвэли No, it is just internal test.
 
I know I'm memeing
 
Ell
@Morwenn you know about gray codes and boolean algebra and that right?
Can you explain what the "prime implicant" of a karnaugh map (sum of products?) is?
 
@Ell I know a bit.
 
Ell
wikipedia wasn't helpful :S
 
@Ell I've got no fucking idea :D
 
Ell
8:27 PM
haha okay xD
 
Sorry.
I haven't seen Karnaugh maps since my first or second CS year.
 
@Ell It sounds to me that prime implicant is each separate boolean expression that you get from each covered area in the Karnaugh map.
 
Ell
@wilx so here, A'B'D and BC' are essential prime implicants while A'C'D is a non-essential prime implicant?
 
@Ell Yes, IMHO.
 
Ell
8:42 PM
thanks :D
 
8:59 PM
I want that T-shirt! (This is just some random dude in a background of a photo of a woman on a dating site.)
 
her: wanna do anything this weekend? me: thats a decision best left to the states (we can make this a meme, right? we can make this a meme)
 
@Borgleader :( too late Comments got nuked.
Don't refresh if you haven't yet. Screenie it.
 
9:50 PM
@szpanczyk I glanced at your linked question you have an answer from dasblinkenlight who is one of the brightest minds on here. I share your frustration with asking c++ questions though. That tag is commonly known as the shark-tank. It just has a lot of negativity. Ultimately I resolved my thoughts in the meta here: stackoverflow.com/users/335858/dasblinkenlight I hope you find this encouraging. — Jonathan Mee 2 mins ago
^^ I'm pretty sure is not the worst tag out there...
 
> Ultimately I resolved my thoughts in the meta here: stackoverflow.com/users/335858/dasblinkenlight
whoops :D
 
At this point, when you want to load a new comment, do it in a new tab. What's there is already well beyond the threshold for an automatic flag for the mods to come back.
 
Is this a good plae to vent some frustration?
 
Yes. I was one of the people that deleted the question, fwiw
The reason is that you didn't provide enough details for anyone to be able to determine what a good answer would be. There are assumptions in your head that may be obvious to you, but you need to detail them in the question, explain is and isn't a good solution, and then maybe we can go from there.
 
what was missing?
though, you know, it's gonna be hard to prove it wasn't now, as the question is deleted
 
10:01 PM
You tell me. All you said was you have two sets of floats and want to compare their sums, you didn't tell us what you tried and why that's not good enough.
 
let me do it myself
1/ code - irrelevant, because the problem is too abstract.
 
Not at all
 
there is no rule that every valid question needs a piece of code, and I already see that some people mistakenly assume lack of code renders questions bad
 
nwp
@szpanczyk But that is what stackoverflow is about. "Here is my code, this is what it should do, that is what it does instead. Why?"
 
code is best in situation when I notice a incosistency between my understanding and observed results of applying my knowledge
nwp, could You please show me where it says so?
 
nwp
10:03 PM
If you don't have that programmers.se is more fitting.
 
I think you're making these assumptions 1) "Some questions have no code and are okay", agreed, 2) "Some people close questions simply because they have no code, but the were okay questions", I agree, but not as strongly
the problem is just because a question without code is closed, doesn't mean it's because of #2
some questions have no code and are bad questions
 
what you just provided were not assumptions, but observations
that's probably why you agree with me full, then somewhat
because you observe the same as I do
 
don't assume that just because your question had no code and was closed, it was because people incorrectly close questions without code
 
please now you;re making this Logic 101
see?
maybe i wouldn't be so frustrated if you people weren't patronizing me
 
Because your only argument so far has been "My question was closed unfairly, and I know this because it was closed simply for having no code and that's not okay"
 
10:06 PM
I've been programming since I was 14
now you're doing an explicit strawman
and I am 27
 
I'm not patronizing, I'm saying we're talking past each other because you are assuming up front in "there is no rule that every valid question needs a piece of code, and I already see that some people mistakenly assume lack of code renders questions bad" that your question was deemed invalid, incorrectly, because there was no code
 
perhaps simplicity of my question has led people to believe otherwise
this is a website for programmers
 
I've been programming since I was 8 and am 27
 
we're logical bunch aren't we?
why are You trying to teach me logic?
 
I'm not, I'm assuming you follow it and pointing out that in step 1 of your response above, you assumed your question was closed because it had no code
 
10:07 PM
irrelevant, I am not comparing my internet penis
 
Then don't bring it up.
 
I am just trying to change the way you see me
well i will
 
@szpanczyk Your question needed work to fit this site, but we aren't making judgements about you.
 
Again, you're assuming I see you like an idiot, I am not
Don't take things so personally
 
I think I have you both beat since I've been programming since I was 5 and am currently 26
 
10:07 PM
you should slow down
if you don't know where i'm going with something
 
@Puppy Slow down there Ron Jeremy
 
I did not assume my question was closed because it lacked code.
This was one of the remarks about it.
 
can I see the aforementioned question?
 
you can't, it's been deleted
unless you can see deleted stuff
 
10:09 PM
10kers can see deleted stuff
 
good or you, you now have a chance to see perfectly valid question
that was ran over by a bulldozer
of self-warranted judges
 
there's nothing self-warranted about it
it's an intentional part of the design of the website
 
and maybe, just maybe, the kahan summation solves the problem. i am gonna try that
 
Why are you assuming it was perfectly valid, when you have community evidence that it wasn't?
 
users don't give themselves the power to delete posts
 
10:10 PM
a sec, friend's calling
 
nwp
@szpanczyk there are so many bad assumptions in these lines :(
 
brb
 
Rather than simply argue "eh, you're all wrong", maybe try to understand why the votes went the way they did and adjust.
 
I do not really see the problem here
it's clear that the question is conceptual rather than an implementation detail
 
@szpanczyk In the future, don't invest so much on a question. It's easy to edit, ask again, etc. It's hard to undo getting angry at someone. The perfect script would be "Hey, my question was deleted. Could somebody take a look and tell me what happened?". We're all here to help you out, though sometimes you've got to meet us halfway
 
10:13 PM
the questions aren't exact duplicates but they're close, I can see why people may have chosen to vote as such
the only difference is that in your case, the answer is to not perform the calculation in floating-point
 
I agree, the underlying question is interesting and the question probably doesn't need code. But the question doesn't define what "larger" means, if not floating point comparison. It's unclear what constitutes a valid answer, and some sample sets would clarify that.
 
Here's my assessment:
1. The chosen duplicate is not a good duplicate for that question.
2. "I can't provide any effort on my side, because all I have is vague ideas, all of them complicated and not convincing." - That screams, "My question is vague and I'm lazy! Please downvote and close".
3. Your attitude in both the comments and here really turns people off.
Aside from that, there is a real question in the question. But because of these issues, I'm not surprised it received the response it did.
 
@GManNickG I'm pretty sure that "larger" means "larger given arbitrary precision in all operations"
 
@Puppy Maybe, but that's the exact kind of thing that needs specifying. Also infinite precision lifted into an arbitrary-sized floating point type, or are we taking these floating point numbers, treating them as reals or rationals, and summing those?
 
I think that the intention is to produce the answer as if they were perfect reals
hence I would have answered that he needs to convert to an arbitrary-precision format first, and then perform the calculation there
 
10:16 PM
Cool, makes sense. Now we have a valid question with a well-defined goal condition.
 
yeah
it's not explicitly stated but seems fairly clear to me, anyway
and the explicit goal of arbitrary precision instead of best-possible-with-common-floating-point-sizes precision or something
makes it that dupe a bit more iffy
 
@Puppy The question is actually pretty clear - after reading it like 3 times.
 
Agreed. These are just those "in-head" assumptions that are easy to forget to express, because your domain is implicit to you. That's all I was trying to express. Code is a really great way to demonstrate these in a question, too.
 
really the question could be much more clear and the attitude seems pretty bad but I think it's fundamentally valid and not a duplicate.
 
@szpanczyk If what we've guessed about your requirements is true, please feel free to ask a question with these details and I'm sure you'll get a much warmer response.
 
10:19 PM
well, at least, not of that specific dupe
 
My own gut response is to just load exact floating points into some arbitrary-precision bignum type and then do some running-counter comparison of the two sets.
If they're sorted.
Another assumption I had. :)
 
that is exactly what I immediately considered as the correct answer given his desire for the perfect solution
need arbitrary-precision result? need arbitrary-precision
 
@GManNickG I'm not sure if the sorting helps. Sorting can reduce the numerical errors so that you only add together numbers of similar magnitude. But if the sum of the two sets are almost identical and differ only in the bottom bit, you're still gonna need to add everything up in an arbitrary precision type that spans the entire exponent range. ~10^300 - ~10^-300
 
I guess also you need to pre-scan these lists to check for infinities, since those will just win out (or lose out, if negative).
 
10:33 PM
Pre-scanning or pre-sorting will definitely help to early out if the sums are clearly drastically different.
If the max of the first set is 2^64x larger than the max of the other set, then you know the first set is bigger since you need at least 2^64 terms to make up that difference and you're bounded by 64-bit addressing.
Or to generalize, if max(A) > max(B)*B.size(). No need to sum.
*assuming all terms are positive.
 
Quick, somebody ask this question so Mysticial can post an answer and get rep
 
no fuck you, lol
 
@GManNickG last time you did this it went really well :D
 
ayyyyy
 
10:51 PM
@Mysticial your point of view is assymetrical. My attitude turns people off? Because I have to accept people patronizing me and they don't have to prove anything I write wrong, right?
@Puppy indeed, I am not saying I want to perform calculations in floating point. I am saying I want to know which set's sum is larger. In mathematical sense. I may agree or not, upon possible inspection of floating point standard, that this is first problem with my question. First real one. I am not sure if there is such thing as value of floating point variable that does not come with interpretation of haviing precision. Sorry for my English in that last sentence.
Maybe, just maybe, I'm not sure, I should clarify what I mean by sum of those variables. I assumed that the values ARE exact, but perhaps they can onyl be treated as exact? Semantins.
Semantics.*
 
@szpanczyk Yes, this is all we're saying. In your head, you have some definition of what summing means. If not floating-point, then you need to clarify. Also, floating point is exact, so saying "i want them to be exact" doesn't mean the same thing as "I want them to be treated as real numbers".
 
As to why am I arguing "rather than" understanding... I understand why the things happened the way they did better than those who downvoted my question.
GManNickG no, actually nobody said exactly that except for you, and even then I am not sure if you unerstand it the same way I do.
 
@szpanczyk You understand why I downvoted better than I do? Amazing.
11
 
nwp
It is a conspiracy, obviously.
 
10:57 PM
Is it really? Do You consider the idea that one person understands the actions of other person better illogical?
Impossible by definiotn? Or what's the problem with it?
 
Maybe I should stop telling people who have attitude problems that they have attitude problems. The only benefit from that seems to be entertainment.
 
Whoa! A drama!
 
I have no idea how to reply to these anymore. You're literally arguing that you know what I'm thinking better than I do. Typical armchair psychologist internet arguments. I'm gonna go back to doing work now.
 
nwp
@szpanczyk I find it troubling that you have all the understanding, you understand the problem, the people, the behavior, yet are unable to solve the problem or even write up an acceptable question. How did that happen?
 
Hey Nick, I'll give you an example that shows why am I frustrated haing to deal with soe people.
You ask me to spend more effort understandin why you think the way you think, than arguing with you.
You don't notice those big two problems with this suggestion?
First, that somehow it's better for me to reflect upon what you say than provide you with my understanding of it and how I would refute it.
Second that me arguing is a sign of me not thinking of the reason for downvotes. What if I think I know the reason and disagree?
should i just think more?
because what, because you having more point on stack overflow must be right by defintion?
the way i see it si
you're on your territory
this is why there is nothing i could say to help this situation
you've got your friends here on this channel, so when I argue about the way things resolved, they will back you up calling what i do a drama
ridiculing me
this is a downward spiral, where I try to present how I see things, how I see what you wrote
you react, i react to your reaction, but since we have different attituted
attitudes
my attitude is that we are equal
and nobody here is in a position to just tell me to read a guide, just tell me I am wrong etc. without proving it
you on the other hand maintain some status in this society which I am no part of
you know the customs
you have relationships with people here
so the social game ensues
in which I lost before I started
but which has nothing to do really with merit of the case
as Puppy wrote, there is nothing wrong with my questions
the thing is Puppy, agreed or disagreed with me, said what he (or she) thinks
with honesty
 
11:06 PM
> spam flag bait :(
 
@Borgleader Just in case you missed it. ^^
 
Puppy only cared about wether this question indeed was ok
or not
you're a jerk mystical
so a word for you now
at the point in time you decided this is "funny"
it doesn't matter what I write
You have decided beforehand that whatever I write it will be funny.
you should add popcorn.jpg
as if we're on some board for bored school children
 
Holly molly wall of text!
Also, I smell some dust burning somewhere insides my PC...
 
nwp
I still have christmas chocolate. What have I been doing with my life?
 
@nwp Adulting?
 
11:11 PM
@szpanczyk I'm not entirely sure he decided beforehand that anything would be funny, but I find your stubbornness amusing. When everybody else is saying that you over-react, and yet you say you do not, it seems like a cautionary tale...
 
supposedly lots of comments were lost due to moderator intervention, which doesn't help the transparency
 
Aaron I am reacting the way I want to.
Actually I am talking over the phone to my friend and we're having a laugh off this situation.
 
it would be nice if one could see deleted comments with enough rep
 
And as I was saying to him, sometimes I enjoy "overreacting"
 
nwp
@szpanczyk Maybe that is not the best attitude when requesting help.
 
11:12 PM
at this point I am not requesting anyone's help
that's one
oh
whatever
as I said before - it's your territory and you get to play superior
 
Life is not fair. Deal with it.
 
1 hour ago, by szpanczyk
Is this a good plae to vent some frustration?
7
well, goal accomplished, I guess
 
@Aaron3468 I find the lack of proper fl ligature disturbing.
 
Aaron nice. You do realize, I am this other for you?
Or does this quote apply only to... others?
 
11:19 PM
I advocate being aware of others. In this case, I understand that your question was quite valid, but also that you have room to improve as an individual. There wasn't really an atmosphere of confrontation until you began to confront people. I find in my own life that difficult situations can be solved by understanding that most others are willing to help and don't want confrontations :)
 
Aaron well, perhaps all I did was my frustrated attempt to show the people around that they have3 a lot of room to improve as people?
 
nwp
7 mins ago, by nwp
@szpanczyk Maybe that is not the best attitude when requesting help.
 
...
you just don't get it
 
Write a book and found a religion to teach people a better way
 
whatever Aaron
bye
 
11:20 PM
\o/
 
1 hour ago, by szpanczyk
irrelevant, I am not comparing my internet penis
^ best part
from this point I knew this conversation won't rise from the bottom
 
@szpanczyk They are not exact and the operations performed on them are not exact either. If you want exact values you need arbitrary precision. Floating-point is just "good enough" precision that is implemented quickly in hardware.
@Mysticial Presumably you could generalize this further to an arbitrary selection of the biggest elements.
 
@Puppy I think the most efficient early-out solution is to just sum them up in floating-point first. Only when the result is "close-enough" do you actually do the full-precision sum.
Though I'd need to defer the analysis on what "close-enough" is. There are papers on that.
 
also bail out if overflow/underflow
 
Just as a curiosity: Back in the day, single and double precision floating point were quite different. Before the IEEE stuff. In the current edition of The Knuth's TAOCP he still has two chapters for single vs. double floating point. The second revised chapter is basically. "Oh fuck it, there is nothing new here"
 
11:33 PM
lol
 
lol
 
He does say "Oh, fuck it" in very scientific terms though.
 
nwp
11:48 PM
 
@nwp Not bad, 8 vcores and 32GB of ram.
 
nwp
my laptop was doing something for once, though it quickly ended with /llvm/tools/clang/utils/TableGen/ClangASTNodesEmitter.cpp:50:24: error: invalid operands to binary expression ('llvm::StringRef' and 'const std::string' (aka 'const basic_string<char, char_traits<char>, allocator<char> >'))
Either they broke something again or I still don't know how to update using svn and I suspect the latter.
Maybe I should give up and go with the git clone.
 
why ever use svn if you can use git?
 
11:56 PM
What does the red formatting indicate? Uncertainty?
 
because the usage can totally be >100%
 
nwp
I always thought green is userland and red is kernel, but I don't actually know
apparently I wasn't too far off
 
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