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00:02
@sehe Meh. Windows, X, MacOS are all about equally bad in this respect. The differences are like looking at a corpse and trying to figure out whether this man might have had a tooth-ache before he was burned to death.
I never had to deal with that on OSX or X. And I never dealt with it on Win32 (a little bit on Win16)
:O an entire involved conversation about OS GUIs?
begins reading
@sehe They all had/have pretty similar stuff (or at least Mac OS used to have a mechanism pretty similar to what Win16, Win32 and X all use.
@jaggedSpire Probably just as well to ignore. Not much to see beyond "some types of development have gotten more difficult than they once were."
I'm gathering as much. I was so delighted to see great big wall o' text, too
ah well I wouldn't want me to get spoiled
Well, that and the fact that I, at least, think we should and probably could restore at least some of that easier development without losing most of the advantages to which we're now accustomed.
00:26
I say we drop UNICODE and GUIs. We do our accounting telex-style and need no more than a raspberry pi to accommodate the back office!
j/k I'm off to bed :0
 
1 hour later…
01:48
I had a dream last night/this morning - riding a ferry to visit a gallery/museum on an island
do you remember what the subject of the museum was?
no idea
also apple closed iAd, I received payment from them for the last (also the first) time
@Telkitty A prison. Alcatraz, to be exact. A microcosm of Australia's origin.
@JerryCoffin lol, something similar probably - fort Denison
 
2 hours later…
03:35
Why hello there
04:05
yo yo
04:22
@jaggedSpire Santa? Quoth the Raven: "Nevermore!"
@JerryCoffin Abruptly switching topics, how do you pronounce SFINAE? I've been pronouncing it sfin-a, with a long a.
I've always pronounced it "sfee-nay"
@jaggedSpire I usually pronounce it as "sfeen-ay" (well, looking at @EtiennedeMartel's post and repeating it a few times, he's probably gotten the syllabification more accurate).
excellent!
I always feel like I'm just making up the pronunciation on the fly, but a group of two is a group I'm willing to bandwagon
for this at least. I feel that qualification is important here
04:46
@jaggedSpire like it’s Latin, rhymes with bellae
excellent
05:14
@qaispak You can run text mode Emacs and just use command line. No GUI. :)
05:26
speaking of those fancy sorting algorithms ... nope, I am not writing a merge sort to put a 5 elements list in order
I did write merge sort once, but it's in a different language and I need to re-write a bit so suit current situation ...
even bubble sort seems to fancy for a tiny list
@Telkitty Please at least say it's going to be a bottom-up merge sort.
wiki has sample code for both
@Telkitty For only five items, a sorting network is pretty simple.
@JerryCoffin I think right now I am more thinking along the line of copy & paste code from the web or just use some library function to sort it for me ... either seems to be easier than to find some pre-written code by myself.
And I am pretty sure that I have written sorting algorithms many times ...
@Telkitty If you don't care about writing the code, why don't you just use what the standard library provides?
05:39
I am not comparing numbers, I am comparing a list of objects obtained somewhere else, so it's slightly different
Also, I might want to be lazy, but I don't want to code to slow things down noticeably (not sorting 5 elements takes that much cpu power anyways)
05:54
WP has an … in space template, example
I am trying to figure out whether I can be lazy by using lambdas in Java8. But top answers given by google only returns java.runtime.version which is not the info I am seeking
Damn, I hate this bullshit:
> Please avoid extended discussions in comments. Would you like to automatically move this discussion to chat?
@Shoe lolol.
Well, at least he had the balls to admit mistake. :)
> Why a lame joke by Nvidia’s CEO highlights an ongoing problem for women in the industry.
A little too dramatic perhaps?
06:35
Hi guise
hi
When I was young and naive I used to be excited and honoured to receive those interview invitations from those top tech companies on linkedin. Nowadays I look at those invitations & think: after jumping through all those hoops and 5 rounds of interviews for software engineer position, I am getting only 150k max for working 250 days a year for at least 8 hours a day.
Do you know how much can I make if I buy an old house with regular piece of land and wide enough frontage in an area that I already own a property in, demolish it then build a duplex on it? At least $500k and it can be done in a year and an half.
top talent my butt
06:57
@Telkitty Top talent may be more interested in building something cool/interesting than merely in the money they make. Of course, a few are in it for the money, but figure the salary is just enough to get by on for a while, and are betting on stock options to make them some real money.
Of course, there may also even be some tiny number who actually enjoy their work, so they don't mind the hours they spend there.
07:10
Interesting
It almost seems like he thinks that classes are just namespaces
07:44
Damn, I am getting comfortable with dumping girls.
It is almost scary.
@Puppy Doesn't change what effect it will have on you, though :(
@wilx :D
We were only on a first date. Talked a bit. She was nice to talk to but she is huge, too huge for me.
@Shoe Just realised how a binary referendum completely undermines this idea.
@wilx Physically?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Aren't referendums always binary?
07:48
@Shoe Yes. She was about as tall as I am but much wider.
I am 184 cm.
user1804599
@Shoe objects are modules and classes are module constructors
@Shoe Nah.
Example you're probably familiar with:
Two New Zealand flag referendums were held by the New Zealand government in November/December 2015 and March 2016 and resulted in the retention of the current flag of New Zealand. The first referendum to determine the preferred alternative flag took place between 20 November and 11 December 2015 and asked, "If the New Zealand flag changes, which flag would you prefer?" Results show the black, white, and blue Silver fern flag by Kyle Lockwood advancing to the second referendum. The second referendum took place between 3 and 24 March 2016 and asked voters to choose between the selected alternative...
Nice
Referendums are a small part of politics though
Snackchat clearly biased for the Red Peak flag.
user1804599
user1804599
07:50
Beautiful.
So... "completely undermines the idea" is a nah for me
@Shoe Oh. I meant at an instance level.
Electoral reform in New Zealand has, in recent years, become a political issue as major changes have been made to both Parliamentary and local government electoral systems. == Parliamentary electoral reform == All New Zealand elections from 1914 to 1996 consistently used the British system of first-past-the-post (FPP) for parliamentary elections (bloc voting and runoff voting were also used in some elections before 1914). This system had consistently favoured the two largest parties. From 1936 on, these were the National and Labour parties. The electoral reform debate began in earnest in ...
Damn, New Zealand.
Also that referendum about the flag also looks binary
I'm too lazy to read
@rightfold This one does not look too bad. But I find it silly that they would change it. We have kept Czechoslovakia's flag as stand alone Czech Republic too.
Oh nevermind
07:54
@Shoe There were two. A "which flag do you prefer?" first, and a "keep or change?" later.
(Which IYAM sounds completely backwards in order)
Yeah
But I mean
Funnily enough, they did the 1992 one in the right order.
In the end it kind of always gets down to a vote at an instance level
@R.MartinhoFernandes I want some country to try the Democracy 2.1 system.
Be it in the senate, referendum or whatever other voting mechanism
07:56
(Still think it should just have just been one that included the current one as an option)
user1804599
They should replace the union jack with the Dutch flag.
@Shoe Yes, but it's repeatable until compromise is reached.
What I meant there is that you have a vision for how you want to see your country in the next 5 years or so. And most of the times you won't be able to get all of that done. So you have to compromise, analyse your priorities and see what's the best way to get stuff done.
Which is what happened in Nomic.
That basically changes the vote from keep/change to iterate/apply, which I think is an important difference.
Compromise with regards to your original idea
You can always iterate, I'm not sure what you mean there
Politics is an incremental process IMHO
08:00
rotfl @Shoe
-2
A: Use std::experimental::optional to implement a list

ShoeIt's definitely possible to implement a tree like structure or linked list (both singly and doubly) with it. I highly doubt this is the most cost efficient way to do it. std::optional (and it's experimental version) does bring some runtime and compile time cost over alternatives like a raw pointer.

A party is unsatisfied, the party proposes the change, the change is adopted/rejected, repeat.
@Shoe Not when you ask people for a keep/change vote.
@milleniumbug :(
You can't just repeat the vote until people pick what you wanted them to pick.
user1804599
Repeat the referendum until the people vote what you want.
08:01
@R.MartinhoFernandes That also holds true with any other vote I presume
The only difference is that a referendum costs much more than a vote in the senate or whatever other council
user1804599
People just need to get more comfortable with butthurt and all will be well.
So it's not feasable to ask, amend, repeat, amend, repeat until you are satisfied
user1804599
No, because your vote doesn't count for a majority but only for 1/population.
The difference is that in a parliament there is the ability to discuss the matter (or if you're actually a politician, just say how bad the other parties are).
@milleniumbug Oh, std::optional requires T to be complete
user1804599
08:04
Oh wait "amend"
Of course
user1804599
The people will get super tired from that.
user1804599
And they'll vote the first time, maybe the second time, after that most people won't even bother
user1804599
You propose it, people vote, you accept it, done.
@Shoe I was about to click upvote.. but this answer had gone..
08:05
@milleniumbug Can't hear them downvotes over the sound of that sweet sweet stream of reputation coming from doc.so
@ProblemSlover It was a terrible answer
user1804599
Butthurt is part of the game.
user1804599
@Mysticial you should post that on meta
@R.MartinhoFernandes In a referendum people discuss with each other just fine
@rightfold Amen to that.
@Shoe And that has no effect on the actual options available.
08:10
If the discussion happens prior to the referendum then I would assume people who are interested in pleasing their voters would consider the most prominent opinions on the matter
So indirectly, I think that it effects the actual options available
Ah, but that brings you to a different problem. Those people interested in pleasing the voters were elected by people n years (usually 4-5, I think) before, and it is absolutely possible that at the time of the election the subject matter wasn't even a thing; the representativeness is highly questionable.
@JerryCoffin I agree, but building cool/interesting & useful things is a lot easier if you already have a lot of $
But they probably want to be voted again, or at least have one of their fellow candidates be voted again, so it makes sense for them to please the majority of people in order to gain votes for future elections.
@Shoe Yes, but they're still not (necessarily) representative.
What do you mean?
08:15
Not everybody will try to please the majority (that would be funny).
There's not always a clear majority
A good percentage of people usually don't express themselves, so I'm thinking that each party will select the option that they think will gain more traction
@Shoe Right. But the distribution of representatives that was picked before the subject became a subject may unfairly bias certain options.
Also perhaps they search for options that are inline with their party motto
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not necessarily
I mean of course in the time span unit for voting (your 4-5 years) there might be moments where the representatives are not exactly in line with the majority of voters anyway. What else do you propose? Shorter time spans?
@Shoe "(...) may (...)" "Not necessarily"?
But the point is that with each new proposal that needs to hit the population I would expect every politic person to consider how the population flows on the matter. Do I please the voters? Do I please the majority? Do I stand by my party's code?
Like the issue on gay marriage for example. I would expect that there were the usual catholic based parties to oppose the motion, even though they were not really favouring the majority. They preferred to stand by their party's logic.
08:21
@Shoe It's not at all uncommon for people to generally support one party but disagree on specific cases.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, exactly
@Shoe And what's a Catholic party's stance on climate change?
No idea
08:22
5 mins ago, by Shoe
Also perhaps they search for options that are inline with their party motto
This isn't an option.
When? Why? What?
@Shoe If you vote for a Catholic party, you can hardly claim to voted for one or another option in the topic of energy policy.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here
Are we still talking about a referendum vote?
If the Catholic party doesn't have a stance on the energy policy referendum it probably won't propose an option for it
Independently from what people voted
Well, yes. You said the elected officials could pick representative options for the referendum.
@Shoe So all those votes are worthless?
That sounds like a logical fallacy
Slippery slope?
I guess that wasn't clear.
In a referendum, it would make no sense to not propose an option a good portion of people are considering.
Those Catholic party elected officials are supposed to represent a certain part of the population. If they don't take part in some debate, those votes are not having their voices heard.
Sounds like a political suicide
@R.MartinhoFernandes "are supposed to represent a certain part of the population on specific matters"
08:30
@Shoe Er, no.
They're elected to represent them on all matters (that's part of the problem as well).
Well, yeah. You can't possibly cover all possible matters.
No one else is there to represent them on any others.
They are elected to make decisions on all matters, not to represent them on all matters.
Make decisions on their behalf.
You represent the idea of your voters if they agreed on your ideas when you proposed them
If you never mentioned your ideas on a matter, then you have the right to take decisions on that matter still but you are not really representing anybody other than you
08:31
@Shoe And yet you're given the power/responsibility to, for n years, do it for any ideas that come along.
Don't you see a problem with that?
What's your solution?
Well, it may be a problem
Maybe by coincidence the decision they take is exactly what the majority of people would have agreed on anyway
But yes, it could be a problem
@Shoe I'm not sure. The best options I've read about are some forms of delegative democracy.
I love how questions are almost always downvoted.
> I definitely like the system and the ideas behind it. But this video is one of the most gender insensitive tool I've seen on a political related matter! Seriously, men and ties all the way?!? We should question ourselves on how we present things and ideas related to the public space, including through images and symbols. A word to the wise!
Watching a video about liquid democracy
08:40
Put on your feminist glasses
So delegative democracy is interesting
Sounds like an advanced form of representative democracy which can transform in direct democracy if needed
It's basically the Scala of democracies
Direct democracy sucks.
I want a representatives democracy that does not degenerate the representatives into aristocracy where whole families are representatives and senators for ages.
...or presidents...
I don't think that's a thing.
Like... there should be a limit on how many times one can be a representative or a senator.
IIRC there's... at least in Italy
So that they can rotate with their friends?
08:46
@R.MartinhoFernandes Rotation would not be possible, not just consecutive but total count of times you were a representative would matter.
Nevermind
I do not doubt such system would have some but different degenerate states. :)
@wilx Well, s/with// then :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes That sounds very tin foil hat conspiratorial.
But yes, that could happen, sort of. But the fact that they would rotate and would not be able to entrench themselves in a position seems positive.
@wilx Hence the smiley.
@wilx Though I think that decreases accountability.
08:50
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh.
If you have no chance of being reelected, you're less likely to care about... well, interests not just your own.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess that depends on how many cycles you would be allowed to get reelected.
@Telkitty Eclipse sucks? :)
08:53
Maybe I do >_<
I would like to claim the most compilation errors in one line of the year
@Telkitty :D
user image
16
If you allow the assignment of votes to delegates to vary from subject to subject, one cannot take all those green votes that picked you cause you promised solar power and use the power vested by those voters to enact tax breaks for you (or whatever other unrelated selfish policy you seek).
@wilx I think that is good enough to mitigate this problem.
Because I don't see a big problem with the same policy maker in power for long if people want their policies consistently.
09:24
@wilx lol
I somehow missed there was a libc++-dev package
09:49
Why are you looking at London housing so often, are you planning of moving over there?
@Telkitty Nope. I somehow accidentally liked London Evening Standard on Facebook and I get the articles in the Facebook feed.
I find them interesting.
@Xeo alright, if you recall we have another trick at our disposal: building an array of continuations into which we jump. pros: no default construction, no silly exception tricks; cons: there’s imo a higher risk of confusing the compiler regarding optimizations compared to hand-rolled recursion. looks good in the trivial case, but even that is very brittle: remove a constexpr here and there and the generated code changes
particularly concerning in that my own variant is not a literal type, nor do I really intend to change that to save on compile-times
disregarding the optimization obfuscation it’s an interesting solution though: compute where to go in the fold expression, then continue
so it can be applicable to search, too
@Xeo otoh this looks good, i.e. very much non-literal cotuple type with non-constexpr cotuple functions, but everything good because GCC is capable of seeing through a static constexpr continuation table. not the first time I’ve seen it do that
bizarrely if the continuation table is constexpr, but not static, GCC drops the optimization. particularly galling because you can’t have statics in a function template marked constexpr. so even with a literal variant type, non-constexpr codepaths may end up worse off than they would be if the functions weren’t constexpr!
Ell
Ell
10:18
Can I have a breif summary of what you are trying to achieve?
I saw you talking about fold expressions the other day
That is all the context I have
@Ell run-time access of a tuple
btw you might take an interest in what the type of such an operation would be
Xeo
Xeo
> static_cast<void>((... && (Indices != offset || (which = Indices, void(), false))));
That still "abuses" fold-exprs :P
but yeah, no default ctoring
I’ll very likely go with it because it actually has close ties with other variant operations (product_with and unchecked_zip_with aka the visitations)
Xeo
Xeo
> you can’t have statics in a function template marked constexpr
whut, why
@Xeo who needs state
10:31
I'm bored
go & troll meta
10:47
you know. that just multiplies the problem
So guys. You being minecraft experts (compared to me), what /version/ of that thing should I get for my kid? Only thing that jumps out to me r.n. is Minecraft Win10 Beta - but it might not be "the real deal"?
@sehe I have a feeling that the 'Beta' part refers to the fact that Win10 support might be experimental
How. I thought it was Java?
if that’s what the big Download button on minecraft.net points you to though it’s probably a good bet to pick that
@sehe yeah, you can even get the jar itself
@LucDanton Yes. But it says this too:
> The most recent edition of Minecraft features cross-platform play with Minecraft: Pocket Edition, and is available from the Windows 10 store. If you own Minecraft for PC/Mac, you can get a free download code for this version from your Mojang account page. One for early-adopters.
Pocket Edition?
@sehe that’s on other platforms, but note the key words 'cross-platform play'. it means that version can play alongside players that use the PE
I’m not on Win10 and I don’t know about the store though
10:55
"Java" version is $23 and "Win10 Beta" is $9.99
oh, I thought you already had bought the game and were downloading it
the store page is gated behind account creation so I’m not sure how I can help you :(
@LucDanton yeah it's precisely that ambiguity that gives me pause. They /might/ mean what they actually say
And I've installed that Beta but want to check before I actually pay up the money
@sehe on the Minecraft web page, I wanted to see their offers
also I purposefully put off migrating my Mojang account to their new system so I don’t think I can login without doing that :|
Ah. That's weird. It doesn't give me problems (and I'm not on the box that I installed it on)
@sehe I don’t recommend it, but only on the grounds that I don’t know what it is
10:59
That's a good enough argument for me to be cautious.
When I ran the server, I don't think I ever started a client :)
You guys were using some kind of launcher thing for that, right? Maybe I can try to find that
> Try a free 30-day trial in-app!
that’s a huge red flag
@sehe yeah finding whatever to download is not the step to worry about, it’s that you need a valid account to play with (i.e. get a license). I don’t know if the ~10 USD thing gives you anything but access to the Win10 client though
Just doin' a little research on external sort, and look whose answer I found helpful
38
A: why is merge sort preferred over quick sort for sorting linked lists

Jerry CoffinQuick sort works well for sorting in-place. In particular, most of the operations can be defined in terms of swapping pairs of elements in an array. To do that, however, you normally "walk" through the array with two pointers (or indexes, etc.) One starts at the beginning of the array and the oth...

/cc @JerryCoffin
the regular 24 USD version will let you play whatever and apparently you get beta access, too, if you care about that
> This request is now closed. Unfortunately that means the ticket can no longer be rated.
then why did you ask me for feedback once the ticket was closed ._.
> We'd love to hear what you think of our customer service.
yes I’m sure
@LucDanton I'm gravitating to that now (also reading from here makeuseof.com/tag/get-minecraft-windows-10-edition)
@LucDanton To make sure you get properly annoyed! That way they ensure you get the feeling of being treated as the consumer/king
@Columbo Use TritonSort.
11:08
ShitContort ¹
(¹ I don't know what TritonSort is)
@sehe yeah that might as well be Minecraft 2
now with less features!
@Morwenn I am too stupid.
@sehe I don't really know either. I only know that it exists and IIRC it's an external sort.
@Columbo So am I.
@Morwenn I am trying not to be, though.
Really hard. Maybe that's stupid itself.
nwp
nwp
@Columbo nah, that's a good thing
11:12
@Columbo Some say that dumb people are happier than you are.
:32090262... aren't I dumb?
I rest my case
11:24
lol some guy spammed linux kernel mailing lists with 1285 patches, each one modifying one file
Looks like the 5 parts of C's floating point TS are finally ready.
replacing chmod numeric octal masks with symbolic ones
Surely it will be in C22.
@milleniumbug kek
linky?
just hit lkml's yesterday's messages and you'll see it sooner or later
11:39
> And part of it is exactly that there are nineteen billion of these "random letter combinations" that are visually almost entirely indistinguishable from each other
Torvalds speaking sense :O
well I better call Satan and tell him to bring Torvalds back into line
@Griwes Being overly mean again though.
Actually, it's the original author of the 1285 (!!!!!) patches who spammed the mailing list who's mean. :P
I have not seen the film yet. I probably never will.
But I have seen many reviews. :)
11:56
ye
@Morwenn the guy does have a point
those macros are too terse to be usefull
requires (true && ... && whatevs) nets me an 'invalid use of pack expansion expression' while requires (... && whatevs) nets me an ICE
so much for that concept overhaul
@ratchetfreak Sure, I'm not criticizing the point he makes, but his general behaviour.
repro, since it’s a regression I’m hoping it’ll get fixed fast-ish
oh wait I already filed that from the last time I tried the tip
12:27
> error: the value of 'std::experimental::fundamentals_v2::conjunction_v<annex::is_convertible_from<Args, A>...>' is not usable in a constant expression
> note: 'std::experimental::fundamentals_v2::conjunction_v<annex::is_convertible_from<Args, A>...>' used in its own initializer
._.
when attempting to use requires conjunction_v<whatevs...> as a workaround
good morning fellow monkeys
oh well, save for that everything else works so I’ll get on with it
12:45
When you're so worried about security you forget about features https://t.co/b2zp6qMVtn
13:15
oh niantic
What?
@LucDanton We're now 23$ poorer :) Thanks everyone for feedback. Kid happy too. Now in creative mode (I don't think Pocket Edition has it)
nwp
nwp
fun with C: enum E{e1, e2}; void f(enum E *e); f(e1); compiles just fine, not even a warning while f(e2); is a compilation error
@Morwenn I was under the impression it was a pokemon go reference. Their tracking system has been messed up from the start because they're trying to do all the distance calculations server-side, so the user never gets the exact location of pokemon. The really great part is that when they messed it up more from how it started, people hacked together a way to precisely locate pokemon anyhow
trying and failing utterly to prevent cheating
@nwp null pointer? :)
nwp
nwp
13:30
@fredoverflow yup
gotta love implicit conversions
@nwp Thank God C++ changed that implicit conversion rule to "just the literal 0".
@jaggedSpire Oh, right :)
@Telkitty that's an interesting cross between exceptionally bad screen shot skill and artistic impression
no effort was spent on artistic impress, but at least 10 minutes were spent directly and indirectly on writing that line of code
13:49
@Griwes When did that happen? Last time I checked, X* p = 2/3; was perfectly valid C++.
@Griwes yesh
Oh wow, I missed the fact that that was due to a Core DR :O
14:20
> For an object o of type std::optional<T> that contains a value, std::hash<std::optional<T>>()(o) evaluates to the same value as std::hash<T>()(*o).
Pretty cool.
@Columbo Ah, now that's a nice thing to see right after getting up the morning. Thank you. Or you're welcome, whichever seems more appropriate. :-)
@Morwenn not sure how else would you implement this
@Griwes That's overstating the change (slightly). For example, '\0' is also an integer literal with the value 0, so it can also convert to a null pointer.
nwp
nwp
@Feeds I don't think I've seen a window that can slide upwards outside the US.
It would explain why TCP was invented in the US, if that is even true.
14:29
Somehow reminds me of an Art Buchwald column from, probably, something like 40 years ago or so, where he talked about a class being given to cashiers on how to accept this strange "cash" stuff rather than checks or credit cards.
"You just take it and put it in the drawer."
"You mean I don't write his address and phone number on it?"
"No"
"But....but...."
@JerryCoffin You mean: return '\0'; will work?
@Telkitty Will work for what?
int main() {return '\0';}
@Telkitty The discussion was of null pointers. What would main have to do with null pointers? But yes, when returning from main, return 0; and return '\0'; are equivalent, save the minor detail that (in C++ but not C) the latter involves an implicit promotion from char to int.
nwp
nwp
not sure if int *ip = '\0'; should compile, I'm leaning towards no
14:38
@nwp '\0' is an integer literal with the value 0, so a conforming implementation should accept it.
nwp
nwp
@JerryCoffin looks more like a character literal to me
char is an integral type
@nwp char is an integer type though. §[basic.fundamentl]/2.
nwp
nwp
I should try to read the standard after 12 to either fall asleep or learn something. Not sure how many nightmares that will cause though.
@nwp I'd recommend against it. While probably a good cure for insomnia, it's likely to lead to extremely troubled sleep.
14:45
@nwp Start here.
nwp
nwp
I wonder if not reading the standard is the key to not hate C++.
No.
@nwp Ignorance is never a good route to much of anything. In this case, what you really need isn't ignorance of C++, but instead a solid grasp of alternatives such as C, Java, Ruby, PHP, etc. That won't make you love C++, but it'll give you a solid grasp of the fact that while it could be a lot better, it could also be a whole lot worse (and most of what's bad about it really is that way for a reason, not just because the designer was an arrogant ass--which is also oddly unusual).
@JerryCoffin doesn't change that those reasons aren't necessarily good reasons
15:01
I like C++, but I have to admit I feel like the committee isn't working fast enough to bring us important stuff, like modules.
nwp
nwp
I would rather pick up a more different language, something like lisp or haskell.
yesterday, by nwp
I still don't actually know anything about modules besides that they fix everything and will come soon.
The current method of compiling C++ (compile one translation unit at a time, link everything together) leads to a huge waste of time which slows down compilation of large projects and require jumping through hoops to mitigate.
I'm gonna wager that most C++ being written right now is being added to massive systems that take ages to compile and would really benefit from modules.
And yet the committee seems mostly committed (no pun intended) to adding features that are mostly useful in academic settings.
nwp
nwp
I don't think the slowness of modules comes from the committee not trying. Supposedly modules have been considered since the very beginning of C++.
We have the current system because linkers sucked in the 1980s.
nwp
nwp
Supposedly VS has an implementation people can use right now, not sure how well that is working out for them.
But I haven't heard that everyone is using them and celebrating 10x build time speedup.
Ell
Ell
15:38
There is debate between clang and msvc I think
15:58
@ratchetfreak Good or bad is basically a personal value judgement. While I'm very open about the fact that I disagree with the decisions they reach in some cases, in every case I've looked at, the reasons seemed solid enough that I could at lest respect them. Personally, I'd just as soon treat C compatibility as more of a general, spiritual guide (so to speak) than the nearly ironclad law that it is now. But I can certainly understand their decision anyway.
@Ell I dunno if it qualifies as a debate, exactly, but they do both have implementations of modules (that are different from each other).
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