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00:14
i.imgur.com/sSnD9ff.mp4 I got FOSO (FOS Online) running :D. Just need some suggestions for the GUI (or lack thereof :P)
what does it do?
user406009
@Darkrifts Nice.
It does this but in an online environment
Means you can do a core warfare fight with some person on the other side of the world (but FOS-X)
Just realized I should change the text on the program creator screen. 00 actually is a NOP as well, so, you know....
@Lalaland Quick opinion question: should I allow the server host to type anything he wants into the output box, or should I make it be read-only to him?
Since output is synced, it would allow the host to type anything to the clients
01:00
Hold all complaints about my design capabilities until later
slinks aw....DISCONNECT 404 FATAL ERROR
user406009
@Darkrifts I don't think it really matters.
02:01
How is the lounge today
ever since that gigantic cat left lounge, there are a lot of spaces for new people
02:19
wait there was a giant cat and I missed it?!?
4
I miss Cat :3
02:42
whoa stars
yellow
03:10
jr;;p
A+ contribution to the conversation
I'm amazed
I get a shiny star because it's an A+, right?
03:26
user image
4
Wonderful. Thank you for taking pictures, Telkitty.
@Aaron3468 oh, absolutely
Or were you talking about an actual star
because I feel like I've not given you the disclosure yet that my fluffy exterior hides a cruel interior made of catface and tormented souls
03:51
Goodie, you missed it.
Now you two can't plot together.
:3
but I can plot just fine on my own
That much I can handle.
.... IcantotallyhandleitIthink.
and you know, maybe I'd be too distracted by all the floof
really, Lord Catface a giant cat is a great opportunity to escape my plots!
you just have to help me lure him back here
I, uh.
I think a giant cat is better to left wander free...
You know! Uh. Self-determinism. Or something.
Rugged Individualism.
but think of how floofy it must be!
and don't you think a giant cat must require an equally giant amount of pets?
and think of the jelly-bean toes!
And think of how much fluff would be in such giant ears!
how would they look twisting and turning to listen to different sounds!
04:22
The sounds of the damned, maybe. :I
 
1 hour later…
05:39
@HWalters Hahah thank you. Sorry I'm not very active nowadays, lots of workload in uni.
 
1 hour later…
06:52
A superatom is any cluster of atoms that seem to exhibit some of the properties of elemental atoms. Sodium atoms, when cooled from vapor, naturally condense into clusters, preferentially containing a magic number of atoms (2, 8, 20, 40, 58, etc.). The first two of these can be recognized as the numbers of electrons needed to fill the first and second shells, respectively. The superatom suggestion is that free electrons in the cluster occupy a new set of orbitals that are defined by the entire group of atoms, i.e. cluster, rather than each individual atom separately (non-spherical or doped clusters...
This is awesome.
Some aluminum superatoms exhibit superconductivity at 100K, as opposed to 1K for regular aluminum.
07:16
hey bois
07:29
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's over the boiling point of nitrogen, so liquid nitrogen would do the trick
08:07
I'm just hoping that maybe there's some superatom structure out there to be discovered that can exhibit room temperature superconductivity.
Ven
Ven
Hi
@R.MartinhoFernandes if it's physically possible, it's bound to happen
whats the physical base of superconductivity? atoms not wiggling enough so that electrons can't move as freely as they can because of temp right?
In condensed matter physics, a Cooper pair or BCS pair is a pair of electrons (or other fermions) bound together at low temperatures in a certain manner first described in 1956 by American physicist Leon Cooper. Cooper showed that an arbitrarily small attraction between electrons in a metal can cause a paired state of electrons to have a lower energy than the Fermi energy, which implies that the pair is bound. In conventional superconductors, this attraction is due to the electron–phonon interaction. The Cooper pair state is responsible for superconductivity, as described in the BCS theory developed...
a Coopair, if you will
can't find a proposal for __builtin_unreachable, that’s sorta weird right?
08:25
[[noreturn]] void unreachable() {}?
does that really work out to be the same?
I'm wondering, too.
It feels very similar.
It does effectively make everything after it unreachable.
> warning: 'noreturn' function does return
lol
for practical purposes I’d feel better with [[noreturn]] constexpr void unreachable() noexcept { … } though
Sure.
@LucDanton Does the standard require that?
no clue
@Xeo remember cotuple for runtime-accessing a tuple element as a variant? it is possible through fold-expr abuse to get rid of the template recursion, although I’m not quite satisfied with the details just yet. bonus: runtime search of a tuple element
you’d think that since throws are expressions returns should be but oh well
08:43
> [ Note: Implementations are encouraged to issue a warning if a function marked [[noreturn]] might return. — end note ]
@R.MartinhoFernandes just to be clear the 'after' is why I’m sceptical: there’s still a (potentially) extern call to a non-noexcept function to insert. which is why I feel that the constexpr and noexcept lipstick help a bit.
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton I'm currently trying to think of a way to do it non-recursive, non-fold-expr-abusive, non-default-ctoring.
@Xeo yer crazy
I am improving an auto-complete feature on a location field
should I display the addresses closest to the current location first?
or should I display addresses within certain distance from current location?
Not enough data to enhance user experience
I actually think the fold-expr abuse is very fair, its whole purpose is to eliminate the usual recursion after all. what’s more distasteful is relying on bool for short-circuit plus the shenanigans to move the actual result around
Xeo
Xeo
08:49
right
I've had a brief thought of custom operator,, but that would involve multiple copies and still "abuse" fold-exprs
@Xeo oh you were here when we talked about custom fold ops weren’t you
@LucDanton Yeah, I got that.
Xeo
Xeo
I did a foldl/foldr thing with custom fold ops at some point
my old tuple algorithms still do the old recursion :(
Xeo
Xeo
tbf, it's way easier to grok
08:52
in my defence there was a recent GCC regression that broke return (fold(f, z) % ... % pack).folded_value;
Xeo
Xeo
I remember my disappointment that you need to copy /move the folded_value in every step, if it was an rvalue :(
You helped me debug that one
well I do that as well with the old version
oh, I guess that’s not exactly true
Xeo
Xeo
Now that I think about it, I wonder if there's a way to do it with default arguments, since those live in the scope of the caller
but default arguments can't access other parameters, right?
@Xeo I imagine they can’t
Xeo
Xeo
shame
08:55
@Xeo I’m not sure I share that opinion, shit’s ugly yo
Xeo
Xeo
maybe not the implementation, but the concept
well in this case I would change the implementation to use the fold, but probably keep on using tuples::fold1(f, xs)
I don’t want to expand tuples in place, too much of a hassle
Xeo
Xeo
mh
for packs that are non-tupled though I’ll gladly fold in place
Xeo
Xeo
I still think the ...expr custom operator stuff Richard proposed might've been nice
08:58
it’s possible to write a packs::fold1(f, pack...) that does exactly the same thing if you like semantics/implementation delimitation
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton well, just forward it as a tuple to the first impl, or vice-versa, no?
(just checking I haven't lost my mojo through non-use)
@Xeo better not go down that way, there’s probably a deep pool of resentment inside me after having used and misused tuples every which way and at the type level, too ._.
@Xeo sure, that too
Xeo
Xeo
@LucDanton haha
name a sequence algorithm and I’ve implemented it for type-lists, packs, tuples, and ranges :(
which is kinda why I have sympathy for Boost.Hana btw
Xeo
Xeo
I haven't taken any kind of deep look into Hana
Though the closing talk for MeetingCpp this year is from the Hana guy
so maybe I'll learn something from that, who knows
09:06
There's like 10 talks about Hana that Louis gave that are on YouTube already. ...well. At least 6 of them. :P
@Xeo neither have I, but I understand the allure of the 'write algorithm once, re-use for packs/type-lists and tuples alike' premise
Xeo
Xeo
right
can’t exactly easily write a filter ttbok though so take with a grain of salt
nwp
nwp
I listened to cppcast 64 about modules. While they were very good at discussing when they come and how awesome they are, they didn't say anything about what they actually do.
I still don't actually know anything about modules besides that they fix everything and will come soon.
09:35
What do they do? They allow users to type import instead of #include. That's sexy enough.
They make it easier to reason about code units since they don't involve copy-paste. It should allow tools to be better at understanding your code.
nwp
nwp
@Morwenn #define #include import
not that sexy
@nwp You're missing the semicolon.
nwp
nwp
I wonder if you lose optimizations like for dlls, but nobody seems to touch that subject.
I should probably read the papers -.-
From a library user's point of view, it almost only changes the include mechanism and probably allows for faster compile times.
nwp
nwp
has anyone tried this static stack usage analysis?
09:48
Woman wins raffled @nvidia GPU at an AI Meetup. Nvidia CEO says to her: "You don’t even know what a GPU is, huh?" https://thereisonlyr.com/dumb-widdle-girls-in-tech-c73647238dc4
^ a new feminazi drama
nwp
nwp
@Morwenn on cppcast they said for example #include <vector> will copy/paste a file that contains import vector;, so not even that
@Abyx Doesn't sound "feminazi" at all. It's a pretty dickish joke to make.
Xeo
Xeo
heh, dickish.
duh
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's just a joke. but since it was told to a woman - now it's a opression/sexism/etc
saying "men joke so women can't go into tech" - does sound feminazi
Ell
Ell
I think it's insulting to somebody (man or woman) who is very interested in something to belittle their knowledge of it
10:01
@Ell oh it could be insulting. to the people who like being offended
Oh, right, grow a thick skin.
You're not fit for public discourse if you're not ready to be verbally abused.
He based that comment solely off of her sex.
He had no reason to believe she didn't know what a GPU was.
Other than some bullshit assumption.
nwp
nwp
I would not count that as abuse. You could come back with "I totally do" or "I don't care, I just want to play games" instead of being offended.
It's like when I walked into Honors English as a kid.
"Oh no no, remedial English is that way."
@nwp She didn't get offended, she laughed at it.
That's the best part.
It's other people who got offended.
10:08
@R.MartinhoFernandes right, if you talk with people they can say something you won't like
@nwp I wonder what it means that the alternative is to have a good comeback.
@Abyx That doesn't change the properties of what they say.
nwp
nwp
laughing in his face is good enough, so it is not that high of a threshold
@Griwes well we don't know what she actually thought
I doubt she would've laughed at a joke that offends her.
His statement about it later smacks of bullshit too.
"Golly goodness guys I just thought young people wouldn't know what a GPU is."
10:11
eh
@ThePhD "young people at an AI meetup".
> Tech Meetup
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right?
Glad to know his opinion of people is ground-licking levels of low.
This statement also makes no fucking sense, coming from a company that spends half of its time waving around the term "FOR GAMERS YEEEAH".
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware the gamer demographic were all old people?!
@Griwes You'd be surprised how people react under pressure.
@Griwes I've literally laughed trauma away, The gamut of human response to being insulted / demeaned is rather wide-ranged.
Not saying she didn't genuinely laugh it off, but I don't think her not exploding is any indicator.
10:18
nervous laugh is a thing
@R.MartinhoFernandes All the negatives!
Damn, I count 4.
nwp
nwp
@R.MartinhoFernandes I want to see a SJW accuse you of sexism for thinking a woman cannot even defend herself against dumb comments and needs constant (male) protection to talk in public.
3
@nwp Is that some kind of strawman you're pulling here?
@Abyx You can say whatever you want. Saying some things will make you a dick; saying others won't.
nwp
nwp
maybe, not sure
10:23
For starters, you were the one that claimed she needed a comeback (i.e. a defense).
If anything, I'd say he needed to apply some self-restraint when talking in public. Nothing wrong with her reaction.
nwp
nwp
I agree that there is nothing wrong with her reaction.
restraining people from making dumb jokes ... I don't think I can agree with that
@nwp You'll note there's a "self-" missing there.
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, but saying bad things don't necessary mean the "women in tech" problem
3 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Abyx You can say whatever you want. Saying some things will make you a dick; saying others won't.
@Abyx And that's why the tweet links to an entire article so you see what the connection is!
Amazing, isn't it?
Strawmen are strong today.
nwp
nwp
I agree that it was a dickish thing to say when you take it seriously and that a CEO should probably be more careful about those things.
I still don't see a problem though
10:31
@R.MartinhoFernandes so are the windmills
> Women in VR Facebook group
this is sick
I know, right. People with things in common coming together.
How dare they.
> As if one must have a penis to understand what a GPU is.
really
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's called segregation
Wait, are you now reading the article?
(that was rhetorical surprise)
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep
so now that I've done reading the article I say that it's a bullshit.
nobody would say a thing it that joke would be addressed to a male
vOv
I think I'm out of my depth.
10:40
btw, the fuck is "dumb widdle girls"? I can't parse that
@Abyx That's just an appeal to other problems. It's not a good tool in a rational debate.
nwp
nwp
Noun: widdle ‎(countable and uncountable, plural widdles)
  1. (slang, chiefly Britain) Urine, or an act of urination.
Verb: widdle ‎(third-person singular simple present widdles, present participle widdling, simple past and past participle widdled)
  1. (slang, chiefly Britain) To urinate.
  2. (colloquial) To play guitar fast. This is generally in reference to electric guitar.
Adjective: widdle ‎(comparative widdler, superlative widdlest)
  1. (childish, chiefly US) Little; used in imitation of childish speech.
@Abyx "widdle" is babyspeak for "little"
@R.MartinhoFernandes "appeal to other problems" now that's how you call strawmans?
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks
@Abyx It's just a specific form of strawman.
Ell
Ell
10:45
@ThePhD she is an intern
A young one I mean
I think the joke was in poor taste
Also man understanding streambufs is taking me a while :V
Probably because the entire streams library is fucked up. :P
Ell
Ell
Too many ptrs for me :P
also due to unhelpful names
egptr
xsputn
egg_pointer
execute_sputnik
Ben
Ben
10:53
->
@ThePhD exempli_gratia_ptr
Ell
Ell
Yeah and I'm confused about putback in the get area
@Ell it's horrible.
You don't really want to understand it.
@ThePhD Excess Putin.
Ell
Ell
@Griwes I do :D
10:57
cppref should have, like, explanatory pictures
@Ell Trust me, you don't.
@ThePhD It does.
Ell
Ell
Do you know about it?
Ben
Ben
What's unsafe and pointy?
a rapier
Ben
Ben
10:57
a pointer.
@Ell did you deal with xalloc and the related nonsense yet?
hehehehehehehehh xalloc/pword/iword
(That's for streams and not buffers, but same nonsense. :P)
@milleniumbug yeah
the most absurd part of the library, probably
maybe except some of the locale nonsense
The locale stuff is a bit rough to deal with.
And it doesn't have good defined behavior among the platforms. =/
I remember trying to use put_money and shit successfully.
Like, there's probably three people in the world who deeply understand and always remember how to use xalloc right.
10:59
Holy fuck, did that NOT go well in teh slightest.
@Griwes One of them being Dietmar Kuhl? :B
Ell
Ell
Egh why does putback even exist? :P
@Griwes nop
@ThePhD I'm almost sure he counts as two of them. :D
@ThePhD Meanwhile we're finally getting locale-agnostic string/number conversion functions.
@Ell Because streams don't have seek().
And because people didn't know better back then. :D
@Morwenn Fiiiiinally.
11:01
It took ~34 years, not even taking C into account.
> After constructing and checking the sentry object, if rdbuf() is not null, calls rdbuf()->sputbackc(ch), which calls rdbuf()->pbackfail(ch) if ch does not equal the most recently extracted character.
Even though they do have a C-ish interface.
ahahahahahhahahhahahhahhh
I forgot how hilariously bad this was.
That smacks of a lot of weird internal state.
People have worked on defining better stream interfaces already, right?
They have worked, and they have failed probably because they failed at properly separating different layers.
11:02
I mean, for me I know it's useful that std::ostream& can point to anything from memory to a file to console out, but...
Like, the actual I/O layer should not have anything to do with anything else.
Literally any I/O on any not ancient OS currently just mmaps some memory.
@ThePhD Rightfold has :p
There's no reason to limit that shit to just InputIterators. ForwardIterators (is that the right one? I can never remember) are 100% fine.
And suddenly a lot of problems disappear.
I would imagine some people would like it if their iterators for IO streams could be anything from random access to bidi to forward, depending on where they got it from.
Ell
Ell
@Griwes inputiteratirs are the correct approach imo
What if you have a stream giving you network data?
11:11
Eh, we might get 130L of beer for sponsorship for our next album :D
And from what I've seen, the album illustrations will be gorgeous.
sounds great
Ben
Ben
@Morwenn what's your band called?
Dur Dabla
Although who donates 130L beer to a band? Not your local pub, isn't it?
@Telkitty I hope it tastes great too :D
@Telkitty A local brewery of course.
11:14
@Ell The network data lands in memory either way!
You album would sound great after 130L of beer :D
It's going to be literally mmap'd into your process' memory in the end for sane implementations of things.
@Griwes Can't stick around forever.
Forward iterators would require that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can control for how long it stays though.
Not with enough granularity, no.
Ben
Ben
11:16
why are you guys talking about stream buffers?
@Telkitty Just like our concerts do.
If you hold an iterator for the start, you keep the entire stream, even if you might need only the first few items, or a few random ones.
Ell
Ell
@Griwes the control comes from using inputiterators and controlling the output yourself
Just grabbing what you want explicitly seems better.
A network stream is not replayable so no forward iterators. It can be made replayable, but then that functionality should probably go as generic iterator wrappers since it can be applicable to any similar construct.
Ben
Ben
@Morwenn do you have a picture of yourself with the rest of the band? :)
11:18
So in the end what we need to do to parse a file sensibly is to open the file, read the entire contents into a string (which first mmaps the file, which allocates memory and virtual address space, and then copy all that into malloc'd buffer, which allocates memory and virtual address space again) instead of just using the (useless) iterators.
@Ben There are a few ones around, but I'm too lazy to look for them.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Network stream is not replayable on the wire.
Once it's in memory it's in memory :/
The entire stream?
The parts the program has access to.
@Griwes Which, if you hold an iterator to the start, is the whole stream.
11:19
A programmer holding an iterator to a part of it basically says "I need this from this point onwards".
That's not enough granularity.
This is not a technical limitation, it's just a problem of teaching the programmers "don't do this if you don't actually need it".
You're asking for half-assed functionality that can be better provided elsewhere.
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you need just a part you need to copy it anyway; nothing changes.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm asking for a memory-management-level feature.
I have no way to get a forward iterator into the mmap'd buffer of an open file.
@Griwes Isn't that what the streambuf abstraction is meant to help with?
11:21
@R.MartinhoFernandes istreambuf_iterator is not a forward iterator.
@Griwes Again, because in general it can't.
A more specialized one could.
In general it can.
A filebuf_iterator could.
@Griwes why not mmap it and create that iterator from the pointer ;)
@ratchetfreak Terrible.
11:23
@Griwes In the same way it can also provide bidi and random-access. Where do you draw the line?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I already did, on forward iterators (because for the I/O purposes of parsing that's enough, and that's what you usually do).
Single-pass input iterators are pretty useless for that, because you literally can't peek() using an input iterator.
2 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
A filebuf_iterator could.
you don't need forward iterators for parsing
(It doesn't have to be specific to filebuf; just more slightly more specialized than streambuf)
you'd just need a "multiple-dereference" guarantee
11:27
@milleniumbug That's a forward iterator.
which is only a part of the forward iterator concept
yeah, but it also specifies that other iterators are valid after ++it
@milleniumbug How useful is it without that?
auto&& ref = *it;
I guess you can deref and pass it around again.
anyway, forward iterators are too strong, input iterators are too weak
sup lounge
@Griwes What you need is just fowardbuf and forwardbuf_iterator.
11:32
@Rerito Wow, hey :D
It's been weeks since I've last seen you around.
streambufs are still horrible.
doesn't peek just require that you can read the current position multiple times?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Which I argue should be the primary one. Eh.
Discording mainly @Morwenn
dumb_useless_inputbuf and dumb_useless_inputbuf_iterator would be good fits for the weird non-default thing.
11:36
@Griwes Fair enough. It just feels completely wrong to forbid completely transient buffers.
Or bufferless (though I'm not confident the stream library currently supports that)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Frankly I don't see the network stream example as convincing.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Bufferless buffers? :D
(Sorry, had to. :P)
@Griwes I'm thinking about the implementation of this. Wouldn't it require some messy bookkeeping?
The buffer has to track all iterator copies somehow.
Am I missing something?
It'd need buffer block refcounts.
It'd behave basically like a segmented iterator, where each segments has a control node that keeps a shared pointer to a buffer segment and to the next control node.
wouldn't a stray iterator copy being held somewhere hold up cleanup for a long time
So in the end @Morwenn, did you find a cool jerb near Brest?
11:42
@ratchetfreak It would, so don't do that. :P
@Griwes Basically, I don't disagree with this, but I think forcing everything to be forward is too much.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I feel like the root of this problem is that the streams library is virtually (lol) the only dynamically polymorphic piece of the standard library. :P
But the whole streambuf thing as is makes some things really hard to do.
@Griwes Yeah.
So we agree on the principle of all of this. Good. :)
@Griwes Though if you go and mimic the iterator concepts in streams, I question the stream/iterator distinction (at least as the idea of "stream" as it currently stands in the library) in the first place.
I always feel like the stream library has too much overlap with the iterator library.
(Well, with way too many libraries. Locale et al. But not something I want to focus on)
IMO it should just be raw I/O and perhaps some basic buffer management facilities.
11:51
Agreed.
Though when you have a "smart" iterator, I'm not sure what else you really need, because it already works as a buffer, too.
@Rerito Er yeah, like 4 months ago already :p
Python (and JavaScript) job in oceanography.
Maybe open_file() should give you a thing that allows you to "seek" in a way that seek(n) gives you an iterator? Hmm.
@Griwes Sometimes you want the buffer directly.
To pass to external code, for example.
I wonder if this could be extended to bidirectional iterators for the file case (I know it could not sanely for network streams, but for files?).
Sounds like more logic, but I think the amount of logic stays about the same.
Hmm.
Or even random access (though that'd be much harder on bookkeeping, since you'd have gaps in your segmented iterator thing).
auto file = open("asdf"); auto it = file.seek(1024); ++it; peek(it); is fully reasonable IMO; not sure if giving the option to do it += 10000; would make sense (especially since you already have seek).

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