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10:00 AM
@Puppy ok, add that to the list of reasons why it's bad
 
Ven
Wrt Go... I'm looking forward to Oden working.
 
@Aaron3468 Probably the answer you're looking for is something like "because they don't allow me to express what I want to express"
 
@BartekBanachewicz Just unfinished.
 
but I'd guess that's obvious
 
Why aren't Java's abstractions good enough? They've got slightly better template/generic support than C++ :p
 
10:01 AM
@Aaron3468 Absolutely not
 
are you kidding?
 
It's the exact opposite
 
Java's generics are the worst generics in the industry by miles
the only thing Java generics beat is no generics at all.
 
frankly in a lot of cases I'd rather have no generics and dynamic typing than java generics
but really java is a language which ideology forbids to add a pair type to it
because it's not enterprise enough
Actually could we sometimes talk about languages that aren't bad here
 
I keep hearing that, although my experience with them is that Java generics were logically consistent and didn't have compiler gotchas
 
10:04 AM
it's depressing to constantly talk about perl/java/C++
dunno there are so many interesting languages
when was the last time someone here said "Oh I used Idris lately"
 
never.
 
nwp
I'd like to talk about ponylang for its threading model, but I need to learn it first :(
 
Well, there was FOS-X that DarkRifts is fooling around with. Not very powerful but it's a nice project
 
@Puppy actually Ell did
 
probably because the description alone makes it clear that it's not something you want to try ;p
 
10:05 AM
@Puppy wasn't it description simply "a language with dependent types"?
 
yep
 
I thought that would make at least you get into that
I thought you favored strict type systems and static guaranteees
 
I do
 
Well then?
 
Ven
Not long ago
 
10:06 AM
but I also believe that it's a tradeoff.
 
FOS-X is a cute assembly language and I really wish he'd fiddle with real assembly language because there's so much he'd learn about documentation and what types of byte code exist
 
It's the most advanced branch of research on static analysis we have
 
you can't just add more static typing and call it an unconditional win.
 
it's like the cutting edge of that area
@Puppy of course not
No one is doing that, though
The point is in making it more usable.
It's not meant for everyone, because most people a) can't understand them in the current form b) simply wants to "get the job done"
 
see, the better question is, usable for what?
 
10:08 AM
@Puppy This is what Idris et al is trying to establish. That's how research of new technology looks.
 
yeah, but that's really not how I see things
 
It's typically not entirely obvious where the limits of it lie
 
first I have a problem, then I find a solution.
 
@Puppy How do you think any progress is made
 
I think it starts by having a problem that you need to solve.
not having a solution for which there is no problem
 
10:08 AM
@Puppy Yes, in a closed set of solutions. This is about expanding that set to give you more solutions.
 
yes, but I don't care about expanding that set if the new solution is for a problem I don't have.
 
@Puppy It would be great if we could simply "solve our problems", but that's not how science and engineering works
 
@Puppy 1. self-host 2. ??? 3. profit
 
academics can academia it up in universities; I don't really care what they get up to
 
@Puppy oh sure, no one is forcing you to be interested in the research. You can just wait a few years until it does or does not go to mainstream.
 
10:09 AM
yeah, and that's pretty much what I and so many other people are doing
 
@Puppy Well, you don't care until it's widely adapted.
But this is how it starts vOv
 
nah I don't care about wide adoption
I care about whether or not it solves a problem I actually face
 
@Puppy I am pretty sure you're outright lying here
 
I wonder if companies would allow you to code in your own language that solves your problems efficiently...?
 
I've seen you dismiss solutions just because they are unpopular way too many times
 
10:11 AM
and another reality of that is that my codebase at work is written in C# and experimental features in new languages don't really mean much.
 
And then hop on the bandwagon of things like React
 
my preference for React has nothing to do with popularity or lack thereof.
I like React because I think that React is a good technology.
 
That's not true vOv
@Puppy it was good technology before it got popularized as react
you only started to care about it once it became popular
which, yes, also means improved support and the like, all consequences of popularity
 
I didn't have a need for it before I started my job.
and as far as I can tell, React was popular before drugs happened to me.
so it's not really all that possible for me to have got on board with it before then.
 
It was released in 2013
 
10:13 AM
yeah
so I didn't start having a need for JS UI libraries until September 2014.
 
Eh, I think your approach of looking at things as libraries is very short-sighted
it's ideas that matter, imho.
 
ideas are obviously necessary
 
That's why learning 11th language is much easier than 1st
 
but there's a hundred times more work in actually getting that thing to work in your production codebase.
 
no, I don't think so
Research typically takes years before the ideas get any use
 
10:15 AM
React is a kinda functional style and it's undeniable that they hardly pioneered the idea of doing things in a pure way.
but there's a hundred thousand lines of implementing logic that needs to be done before React becomes useful.
 
@Puppy And dozens of years of research before. Go figure.
 
yeah, but so what?
 
The code typing stuff is also vastly more primitive
 
I don't care about half-researched ideas.
I care about ideas I can put to use.
 
@Puppy That the particular execution, while important for adoption, is hardly important for progress of research
 
10:16 AM
what stage they're at prior to that doesn't matter to me.
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but I don't care about progress of research.
 
@Puppy You won't have latter before the former. That's like saying you don't care about kids, you only care about educated workers.
 
Pure functional is a fantastic decision for gui. Very poor decision for I/O as Haskell attests
 
maybe
but that's somebody else's problem.
 
Well if you neglect them as kids, you won't get proper educated workers.
It's been proven over and over.
 
I received my new bag and it's cool /o/
 
10:17 AM
I'm not an academic researcher and will not have any meaningful contribution to make
 
@Puppy I'd just like you to realize the importance of it.
@Puppy That's fine.
 
having a process that produces outcomes is important.
the bits that do not become useful outcomes are irrelevant.
 
altough sometimes simply trying to use experimental technology is a meaningful contribution
 
@Morwenn What type of bag? :3
 
and particularly
pieces where it's not clear that they could ever become useful outcomes.
 
10:19 AM
@Puppy There have been millions of examples where research neglected as irrelevant found new life
 
such as solutions without a problem.
 
@Aaron3468 A shoulder bag.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You make it sound like that's a bad thing. It's not.
 
@Puppy Well, not for a scientist.
 
Ben
@Morwenn like a laptop bag?
 
10:19 AM
just because it turned out later that it might have been useful does not mean you were wrong to ignore it.
 
@Puppy No, of course it's not. It's the natural course of affairs
@Puppy True. It's always about finding important things to learn, because you can't learn everything.
I agree with you on that one.
 
absolutely.
and since I have no problems that I think that dependent types might solve
I absolutely don't give a shit about it
 
I'd love curried loops in C++ T.T @do 5: myFunction()
 
I am just personally more inclined to research things down to their bottom instead of focusing on pragmatic executions
 
@Morwenn /o/ What kind of design?
 
10:21 AM
@Puppy Oh this is just because there are no polished languages with dependent types.
 
even for research
you would start with a problem and then research a solution.
 
@Puppy you're not doing research on languages, so...
 
I wouldn't just start researching random shit
 
@Puppy that's not how research works
@Puppy that's incidentally how research does work
 
Ven
10:21 AM
Looks like I'll be at some celtic rock concert
 
@Ven I don't remember playing tonight though.
 
@Morwenn It's really nice. I really like earthy tones like that
 
Research is about finding solutions. Development is about applying them to problems.
That's why R&D go together.
Will existing problems impact the solutions being tested? sure. Will there be solutions that come up without any problem to readily test them on? sure.
 
if there are no problems it can be applied to, you absolutely wasted your time researching that solution
 
This is wrong.
Even if it never finds a real-world problem to solve, it can still not be a wasted time
 
10:23 AM
@Aaron3468 Yeah, I kind of like green on black (except for terminals).
 
it's definitely a wasted time.
you put in time, you got nothing out.
 
@Puppy so is you playing starcraft
 
yeah, but I don't ask anybody else to care about me playing starcraft ;p
 
@Puppy that's wrong. You got potential solution to future problems.
 
@Morwenn terminals?
 
10:24 AM
@Puppy That's because you playing starcraft has no chance of producing anything useful to anyone ever.
 
or pay me to play starcraft
 
Research can or can not produce useful results. It's often simply luck.
But it's still worth to bet that you'll find something
 
it's true that research does not always turn up a solution
but it's still imperative to actually have a problem beforehand.
else you lose regardless of whether or not you find a solution.
 
The history of research without problems that turned out to be useful proves you wrong
 
@Aaron3468 consoles
 
10:25 AM
I think research is a potentially productive form of leisure. The same as spending 5 hours staring at a wall deciding how to design your software classes
 
nah
 
@Morwenn Ah, so xbox ^^;
 
we could have simply performed that research at a later date when we had a problem we needed to solve.
 
@Aaron3468 Nooooooo, command line consoles ç____ç
 
@Puppy If you have a problem beforehand, you can or can not find a solution. If you don't, you can or can not find something useful.
 
10:26 AM
just because some people got lucky doesn't mean it's a good bet.
 
Having the problem doesn't impact usefulness of research
That's reality.
 
@Morwenn Heathen!! I use green on black xD I can understand though
 
Ben
@BartekBanachewicz the applications do?
 
@Puppy Well, a lot of people, including your government spending your money, disagree.
 
yeah but our government is full of morons
 
10:27 AM
So do private investors.
 
those guys don't pay for random research into random shit
 
@Puppy The three most immediate and biggest problems: 'why is this shit so damned expensive?', 'why is it so slow?', and 'why is it so hard?'
 
they pay for research into their problem
 
I am pretty sure you're wrong on this one
It's very often simply betting for useful results. Sure you know the area more or less.
 
@Morwenn What colour do you prefer for consoles?
 
10:28 AM
But I think the possibility of definitely finding a solution to a problem is often exceedingly small
 
@Aaron3468 Many of them at once.
 
So you might as well simply try to do things and see what happens
 
Rainbow output? Like curses?
 
Besides there's also the replication of experiments which is often neglected
esp. in areas less rigid than maths or computer science
 
@Aaron3468 I like stuff like powerline :p
 
10:29 AM
Which is also important, which also should be done, and yet it's neglected
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but they have a concrete plan for how the results could be usfeul in the first place.
 
Meh, often it's just to get funding
 
replication is clearly important
 
@Morwenn I'll check it out. I don't like reading plaintext either and I never thought of getting a proper terminal
I like the idea of stuff like this though:
 
Anyway, we got super offtopic
Deptypes can express more properties statically.
if you like the fact that std::array has a non-type template parameter, you're halfway there to appreciating them.
 
10:32 AM
@Aaron3468 The colours are a bit flashy though :/
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but the question remains - do I actually need to express those properties statically?
 
Yeah... the RGB colour system's basic palette is really ugly. I can't wait until HSV is a more common default
 
@BartekBanachewicz There is at least one thing I don't like with std::array: Clang being annoying whenever you try to initialize it with a single pair of braces. Not the current topic though, by I felt it was important to mention it ._.
 
@LucDanton Extremely useful
also lol at the names of the anthems
 
@Aaron3468 We should just use wavelength in nanometres to measure colour ;p
 
10:36 AM
@Puppy But then you need intensity, variance, and distribution as well. HSV is very intuitive. RGB isn't exactly.
 
Scratch that, you'd need to define a spectrum to display colours properly by wavelength. That's just horribly indirect and inefficient compared to HSV which is tied closely to what we perceive
 
nwp
I just understood another thing that I believed was true that actually is not: vector reallocation factor of 2 is not, in fact the worst reallocation factor because the argument that it just barely prevents using the freed storage just isn't true.
I don't know why it takes me years to understand these things, but right now I feel clever enough that I want to write a blog thing collecting all the things I thought were true but after long reflection are not.
 
er, you do know that it's a mathematical fact that the freed space won't be enough?
 
nwp
yes I do
 
10:42 AM
then how can the vector use the freed storage when the freed storage is too small?
 
Guys, LRiO doesn't know C++:
@BenjaminLindley: No, I'm not. Those elements won't exist in the set after the std::move call. There is no way for me to observe modifications to those elements. I am trying to take them out of the set. I see no reason why the standard library implementation can't make it work. I accept now that it doesn't, but I see no reason why it couldn't be made to. Indeed, that seems to be what merge will do. — Lightness Races in Orbit 12 hours ago
 
nwp
but it is irrelevant because first you don't only have 1 vector, second the argument only holds in virtual memory, not in physical memory, and virtual memory is still many magnitudes bigger than physical memory
 
neither of those things are really relevant.
 
nwp
third a memory manager is not required to allocate right after the old vector, it can just leave a bit of space and fix everything
 
it's true that you don't only have 1 vector, but it's also true that you don't know in advance that the other vectors will leave enough free space.
for reallocation factors under phi you know it will be available.
and for virtual memory vs physical memory, the extra size doesn't really help here, since the virtual memory you used to be using still maps to some physical memory
so you are still consuming more physical memory than necessary
 
nwp
10:45 AM
@Griwes to be fair he hit a design problem in C++ that is getting fixed, so his assumptions were not unreasonable
 
not to mention if you go over the page size, for instance, the OS may have to do a bunch of extra shit about managing page mappings
 
@nwp He hit the "problem" that iterators do not allow you to modify the container itself (which is necessary for actually removing the element from it).
Which is well known (and probably explained on the first few pages of every chapter on iterators ever written).
 
nwp
but that is a design bug, not an inherent problem
 
@nwp It's not a design problem at all; he just didn't understand how the operations worked. The fact that the library didn't offer the function he wanted is relatively immaterial in this case- it's simply a matter of proposal/etc
 
@Morwenn I like their music. Reminds me a lot of demoscene music
 
10:48 AM
@Aaron3468 Some of the tracks are indeed heavily inspired by chiptune and demoscene, but many of them are also blended with metal elements.
Sometimes it's almost the perfect balance between electro and metal :3
 
I'm noticing that with this one ^^
 
Haha, yeah. Kernel is awesome, blending Eminem, chiptune, metal, mathy stuff and even funky riffs :D
Damn, I broke master again.
 
Uh oh, time to pretend somebody hacked your git
 
nwp
@Puppy I read it as "there must be a way to move elements from one set to another", which I deem reasonable. He tried iterators and failed, because iterators don't support that. He asked how to do it instead. Nothing in there indicates "doesn't understand C++ or the operations". (ignoring the apparent assumption that std::move moves)
 
Nah, I just forgot to commit a new file. A good ol' force push to master and the problem is solved :p
 
10:52 AM
@nwp The fact that he even tried to do it with iterators like that shows the problem.
 
@nwp My point was that LRiO doesn't know C++ if he doesn't know that limitation :P (Also I'm not convinced it's actually a bug, but that's a discussion for a different time.)
 
Arguably, one could expect set::begin() && to return mutabe iterators? But he didn't move the set either, so whatever.
 
@Morwenn ...and you can't use that overload, because then you have to way to grab the end iterator. :P
 
nwp
@Griwes default construct the iterator?
 
@nwp ...that doesn't work.
 
10:55 AM
std::move(std::move(set).begin(), std::move(set).end(), out); doesn't sound ugly, does it? :D
 
I'm suspecting you don't know C++ either.
 
@Griwes I actually think it does.
there was a proposal about it at least.
or maybe that was the empty range?
 
Yeah, you can default-initialize iterators in C++14.
 
@Morwenn Isn't that blatantly illegal though? (Since that one overload already does ugly stuff with it?)
 
there was definitely something about default-constructing iterators having some semantics now.
 
10:56 AM
@Morwenn But can you compare that with an actual iterator with well-defined results?
 
@Puppy libstdc++ doesn't implement it though.
 
nwp
I thought default constructed iterators were end iterators.
 
> However, value-initialized iterators may be compared and shall compare equal to other value-initialized iterators of the same type.
 
@Griwes I think default-contructed iterators return true when you compare them, but false if you compare them with anything else. Something like that.
Oh.
@nwp No, you need to know the container instance to produce a valid end iterator.
 
10:59 AM
@Griwes It's not legal right now, but if set::begin() && and set::end() && returned move iterators, I guess it could be legal.
 
So, per the note - they do indeed behave as past-the-end iterators - just not of any useful sequence.
 
Anyway, extract and merge solve the problem in a better way.
 
@Morwenn Moving it twice in the same expression just feels broken beyond recognition.
 
@Griwes Well, since std::move doesn't actually move anything, I don't really have a problem with it.
 
@Morwenn But you do it to explicitly invoke &&-qualified overloads!
 
11:00 AM
But it sure does look ugly.
 
I'm not sure if that's even legal.
 
it is.
 
I don't think it would be illegal.
The calls to begin and end alone wouldn't leave the set in a moved-from state AFAIK.
 
Either way it feels fishy.
 
It sure does.
 
11:02 AM
I still think move should be a keyword and a core language operation, and should remove the moved name from the current scope.
:P
 
True desctructive move.
 
Partially-formed objects (and I count moved-from objects as such here) are really really bad when you are trying to reason about code you're reading.
 
Yay, CI works better when I actually commit every relevant file.
@Griwes In the algorithms I write, I'm often happy that I can reassign stuff to them. On the other hand, if I couldn't do so, I'd probably just construct them again, so that wouldn't be a problem either. It would even probably make some things easier actually.
But I'd still need the variable name to refer to the moved-from memory location.
 
(A proper, so also supporting references!) optional-like type solves like about all use cases (and then IIFEs solve the rest).
@Morwenn Hmm?
 
@Griwes Think about the generic swap implementation with destructive move.
 
11:07 AM
foo f; call_something(move f); foo b; /* the compiler should see this and reuse the memory location of f for b */
 
nwp
@Puppy I would expect the physical memory to remap from the old to the new virtual memory
 
nah
even if the memory manager immediately releases the old virtual memory
the new virtual memory and old virtual memory are in use at the asme time whilst copying over
so they can't map to the same physical memory.
 
CI passed. Now I have to write documentation. Fuck .____.
 
@Morwenn I will think about it. :P
 
nwp
@Puppy only holds for the first reallocation and is afaik unavoidable and not what the factor 2 problem refers to
 
11:13 AM
Is it possible to use asserts to enforce initialization arguments?
e.g fixedWidthInt(7, 255); //throws compiler error because 255 won't fit
 
askubuntu.com/questions/805201/… help is much appreciated
@Aaron3468 it's possible, yes
static assert
 
Awesome. That's one feature I don't often find but is very helpful
 
nwp
@ChemiCalChems "doesn't work is not a proper error description, downvoted"
except I don't have an account there
 
@nwp doesn't work means it fucking doesn't solve the problem
 
nwp
it doesn't solve the problem because?
 
11:20 AM
@nwp because i don't know
i do what i'm instructed, try compile, and mutex still isnt defined
 
nwp
did you #include <mutex>? Did you enable C++11?
 
@nwp the file includes mutex, yes
and yes, it's compiling under c++11
wait, let me check that
i assume it is, and it has to be, because compiling for linux returns no error
but let me check it anyway
 
libstdc++ produces a #error if you attempt to use a C++11 feature without -std=c++11 so the error message would have been obvious had you forgotten the compiler flag.
 
@Morwenn true
i'm stuck
i'll be back later, gonna chill for a while
will be better for my brain
 
nwp
write an [mcve] then
 
11:24 AM
#include <mutex>
int main (){
std::mutex mutex;
return 0;
} ?
 
nwp
#include <mutex>
std::mutex m;
 
fucking hell
 
nwp
compile with std=c++11 and see what it does
if it gives you an error you write a bug report, but I find it extremely unlikely that they forgot std::mutex
 
nwp
@ChemiCalChems I think by doesn't solve the problem you mean doesn't seem to have 'std::mutex' either
 
Ell
11:32 AM
@Morwenn is there ever a use case for a non destructive move?
I guess if there was, we could have "move destructors" as well as "move constructors" :P
 
@KretabChabawenizc sadly gated behind ~400g worth of stuff before we can upgrade our tavern
 
@Ell Not sure.
 
US election: Make America Great (Britain) Again.
 
nwp
Should "The question is if foo has a bar" have a question mark?
 
11:40 AM
It's undefined behaviour
In fluent English, it doesn't require a question mark and most native speakers neglect it
 
'The question is "does foo have a bar?"' would probably have though
 
@Puppy No. You can express nothing statically, like in dynamically typed languages.
 
OTOH, "The question is, does foo have a bar" generally receives a question mark because the embedded question clause is independent (hasn't become part of it's parent statement)
 
nwp
ugh, english is hard. I think I'll just rephrase it to "Does foo have a bar?" and be done with it.
 
mmm can't wait until I lay my hands on all the electronics
 
11:44 AM
@nwp if it helps, it doesn’t get a question mark because it’s not a question. maybe more apparent if you swap out 'if' for 'whether': "The question is whether foo has a bar"
 
I wonder if I should start with the chassis or the wiring
 
@BartekBanachewicz plot twist, your gf is a robot
 
lol
I was thinking about making the chassis myself, but I lack woodworking tools for that
Ideally I'd mill those square fitting joints, but without a proper precise machine I think it's gonna be pretty impossible
 
@LucDanton It boils down to the implicit concept of independent and dependent clauses. The dependent ones usually lose punctuation unless it prevents ambiguity. Unfortunately, the distinction isn't strongly enforced
 
Same with 45 deg cuts on edges
maybe larger cuts like those could work
 
11:46 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Robot, or a device?
 
@Aaron3468 does that really help with anything? example of a question that involves a dependent clause: 'which is the cat that ate the mouse?'
 
control panel
eh all of those projects are laser cut
 
I dispute your weird notion that punctuation is a feature of a clause
 
I wonder if I could ask my GF to cut this for me on the laser they have at school
I'm not sure if it can cut 8mm actually
 
@LucDanton What I mean specifically is that a dependent question clause or quotation will lose its sentence-level (wrapping) punctuation in most cases.
 
nwp
11:47 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Queue 3rd grader voice: Bartek is dating a school girl!
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz you could cut it manually
 
@Ell it has to be really precise
 
Ell
How precise is really precise?
 
@nwp I always called my uni "school"
 
@BartekBanachewicz In that case, you'll want the chassis first. You'll need to install your knobs before you know how much wire you need.
 
11:49 AM
@Ell not something you can do by hand
@Aaron3468 well by wiring I really meant the circuit and stuff
 
@KretabChabawenizc what to pick
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz lol
I meant, give me a figure
 
Aha, well, having your circuit diagram done before you add unnecessary knobs is fairly important
 
Ell
But really doing it by hand can be as precise as you want it to really
Until a certain point I guess
 
@Aaron3468 well my idea is that the front panel itself will be detachable
a long term plan is to be able to easily replace shields
 
Ell
11:52 AM
It looks like he is doing it by hand :P
 
@Ell but with this template right
I found a company that manufacturers those pro cases
but they aren't cheap and well I'd need to order them and stuff
box-like stuff is cheap, but desktop, angled ones are really expensive
 
Ell
Wouldn't it be better to prototype with a cheap hand made one first?
Instead of spending lots and then something goes wroh
 
@Ell that's the plan
 

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