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06:00
but iOS ain't bad
the thing about PC is that you can innovate in whatever form of gameplay you want
I'm indie devving an RTS
whereas the other indie segments like XBLA, PSN, and phones have more limited input
PC remains a big market after all.
absolutely the biggest for indie gaming
and if you add MMOs and Flash and that sort of thing, I think it's still the biggest overall
06:28
@DeadMG Hey, did you figure out your invisible bones problem?
well, I think that right now I'm going to take the obvious approach and simply re-fill the instance buffer every time
after all, with frustrum culling, it's likely that there will be very many invisible objects
Had you actually run into any performance issues doing it that way, or were you just concerned that there was a better way to do it?
well, I don't want to have to go back and re-write my renderer because it's too slow later :P
I want to write it right the first time
and I'm very aware that for 3D rendering, that means performance more so than in many other code areas
Absolutely. Well, I hope it turns out that refilling the buffer ends up being a small percentage of a small frame time.
the way I see it
if I batch them to be like, 100 objects or something at a time, then I can keep the GPU working whilst I fill the buffer
06:36
I think that'd be the worst-case scenario, that the buffer transfer would end up starving the GPU.
yeah
I've seen it happen with my current refill-the-buffer-every-frame code
:P
but mainly right now I'm worrying about my GUI components
What about them is giving you trouble?
well
either they only render to X specific device, like D3D9 or OGL or Ogre or something
or they're so full of Singletons, I can't bear to even look at the documentation
maybe I just have standards here, but what is it about UI code that makes every library spew global variables everywhere?
What libraries have you looked at so far?
I had a UI library question and looked at all the responses
stuff like CEGUI, LibRocket, GWEN, and a couple others
06:40
Oh, that'll do it. Yeah, the singleton stuff is gross. I personally had that problem with CEGUI and Ogre as a whole, in fact.
yaeh
and another problem I've got is that they tend to not know their place
only a couple of them, for example, don't only work if I give up control over my HWNDs and such things
Do you expect that's strictly necessary? I guess if a GUI had to have that kind of thing to work, they'd all do it.
nah
if you want to render to my D3D9 surface, all you need is the surface, and the device
But if you also want to capture mouse and kb events, don't those also require the HWND of the window you're capturing them for?
well, of course, you'd also need me to hook up the input manually
I mean, LibRocket is pretty close
I dislike HTML and JS, but it'd be usable, if only it didn't have an irritating global to render interface, so when I come to change rendering interfaces at run-time, it'd die :(
thing is, I would, and I could, and probably should, just write my own controls, but going above Button and Label is so mind-numbing, and I have no idea about how to make a layout
06:45
It seems like a lot of things are trending (have trended?) toward using HTML for GUI layout, or Flash like Scaleform.
Maybe there's something to that, though. WebKit is open source. :d
lol
true true
I gravely dislike HTML and JS, but they do work to some degree
something like WPF would be really sweet
if only they were platform and rendering target independent and gave you more control :P
It's the fastest way to prototype something, I think. Having a rendering engine doing all the math for you lets you work on what you're working on instead of creating containers or layout strategy or intensely boring things like that.
heh
yeah, I have no desire to write those things myself either :P
So when do you need to change rendering interfaces in such a way that it causes libRocket to crash?
technically, I didn't actually try it
I guess that they could have set their code to automagically update if you set a new interface
06:52
Well, I've got to roll, but it looks pretty sweet. I'd say you should at least try it out.
have fun
I did download it so I might give it a whirl
admittedly, it would be nice to not have to use my core rendering interface to create fonts and such
07:23
hi all, long time no see.
unfortunately, though I won't be able to chat for like a 3 months or so.
Exams starting on 30th of April. Going to Lahore to attend them. Coming back on perhaps the 5th of June.
hi guys!
ohai
@EtiennedeMartel Super-ironically, one of my friends writes Java for a bank.
anyone notice how gravatar.org seems to give a different greeting everytime you visit it.
sometimes it's "Hi intermediate hacker", then it's "Namaste" then "Salam" etc.
nope
I never visited Gravatar except the one time I uploaded The Pupster™
07:33
queue gravatar change. just uploaded new one.
has tried yestarday to get at home
| Section2 = | Section7 = | Section8 = }} Hydrofluoric acid (HF) is a solution of hydrogen fluoride in water. It is a valued source of fluorine and is the precursor to numerous pharmaceuticals such as fluoxetine (Prozac) and diverse materials such as PTFE (Teflon). Hydrofluoric acid is a highly corrosive acid, capable of dissolving many materials, especially oxides. Its ability to dissolve glass has been known since the 17th century, even before hydrofluoric acid had been prepared in large quantities by Carl Wilhelm Scheele in 1771. Because of its high reactivity toward glass and ...
Why would anyone need hydrofluoric acid?
I presume it has some chemical uses
like birth control?
:D
lol
I doubt it
hydroflouric acid is hydrochloric acid's bigger, nastier, brother
it's massively corrosive and poisonous
07:37
then maybe suicide?
pfft, not by that
it's used in oil refining and some other industrial processes
yay, gravatar changed. this one doesn't have my idiot little sister in it.
lol
@IntermediateHacker it's used to get plastic also
in large polymer chain
08:40
wtf
I got downvoted for disagreeing with a comment?
08:57
damn, no one follows me on twitter. :(
do you have anything interesting to say?
09:26
1 message moved to bin
WTF is PowerBuilder?
Some article from the 90's talked about it.
It's a RAD tool.
lol, should've known.
one of those tools that become obsolete a week before they get released?
Google already did.
One of those tools you never need but the business you work for buys because they sound enterprisey.
But according to the Wikipedia article, it is written in C++ and C# . How can they write it in a language that hadn't yet been invented?
09:34
Maybe it was written in just C++ before.
Or you are talking about another product called PowerBuilder.
it is written in C#, that probably means PowerBuilder 2010 or something
09:52
Facebook pages' wall photos are a good source of unlimited entertainment. Youtube videos' comments are a good source of learning new cuss' words.
This lounge is a good place to learn how to troll
lol
seriously though. why do I find racist/sexist/abusive/hate/sexually-explicit/etc. comments on every damn youtube video?
10:29
welcome to YouTube
10:39
oh man
did you see that uTorrent are trying to sell a uTorrent Plus?
trying to sell a piece of software for piracy to pirates
10:52
hello
Ell
Ell
11:12
hi guys
Hi @Ell
Ell
Ell
does anyone know about pushdown automata and what all the symbols mean?
Like this?
In automata theory, a pushdown automaton (PDA) is a variation of finite automaton that can make use of a stack containing data. Operation Pushdown automata differ from finite state machines in two ways: # They can use the top of the stack to decide which transition to take. # They can manipulate the stack as part of performing a transition. Pushdown automata choose a transition by indexing a table by input signal, current state, and the symbol at the top of the stack. This means that those three parameters completely determine the transition path that is chosen. Finite state machines...
Ell
Ell
I have tried reading the wikipedia but its all too maths-y :S
Well, that's kind of the nature of things like automatons
The ∈ symbol means "element of"
Ell
Ell
11:17
hmm do you know anywhere were I can start learning about this?
so p ∈ Q means "p is an element of Q"
Ell
Ell
ahh kk
This is a listing of common symbols found within all branches of mathematics. Symbols are used in maths to express a formula or to replace a constant. Each symbol is listed in both HTML, which depends on appropriate fonts being installed, and in , as an image. : Symbols {| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto; width:100%; border:1px" ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Symbolin HTML ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Symbolin ! style="text-align:left;" |Name ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Explanation ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Examples |- ! Read as |- ! styl...
I don't know anywhere to help you learn about it
and even if I did I have no idea how much mathematical background you have.
Sorry. :-/
But the above link should at least help you identify the many symbols you will see when you research the topic
@Ell I know exactly what you mean.
the formal definitions are worthless in terms of actually understanding
@DeadMG: Yeah, they're intended for communication between people researching the topic
Ell
Ell
11:20
I am at highschool at the minute so I don't understand a great deal of symbols :S
Although I'm one of those freaks that likes math-y stuff. :-P
Perhaps because they can be rather concise
@Ell I'm a third-year university student in computer science and I avoid them like the plague
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG haha :L are they not used in lectures and stuff?
unfortunately, yes
it's pathetic over-reliance
Ell
Ell
:P
11:23
the lecturer is like, "I can't explain this to you because I suck as a teacher; so here's the formal definition. Luck on your exams!"
Ell
Ell
:s
@DeadMG: A lot of lecturers are like that, unfortunately
Ell
Ell
So when do they actually teach you the symbols and stuff?
formal notation is a massive pile of worthless gobbledegook
I had to explain tensors and eigenfunctions/eigenvalues to my classmates
11:24
I learnt most of them in high school
the time expended learning it could be more valuably applied to learning something that can't be automatically translated into English
the rest by context.
@Ell Supposedly, they teach you a few in the first year and then the rest as you go along.
but since they're utterly worthless for absolutely everything, then I forget them the millisecond after the lecturer has said what they are
@DeadMG: The keyword is "supposedly"
Departments are rarely that well coordinated
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG surely they aren't utterly useless? Or else noone would use them :L
@rubenvb you learn't this in highschool? o.O
11:25
@Ell They are utterly useless for education.
@Ell: They're useful if you need to talk to other researchers
maybe when you are a professional researcher
Not so much when explaining to students
Ell
Ell
oh I see
but the point of a degree is definitely not to become an academic researcher
hence, they are very out of place
more to the point, you could trivially write a program to convert any mathematical notation into English and back
so logically, the ability to remember what X special symbol actually means is really quite worthless
because my CPU can do that job really quite easily
11:27
The whole point of mathematical notation is so that you don't spend 20 pages to lay out the mathematics or an algorithm
are you kidding? some of those symbols, like the sum symbol, take up more space than specifying them in a functional notation
but more relevantly, the algorithms you cover are like, one or two liners, they're hardly pages and pages
What I mean are things like "a*x^2 + b*x + c = 0", which takes much less room than "the square of x multiplied by a plus x multiplied by b plus c"
that is not an inherently useful property
What's not an inherently useful property?
terseness is only useful if a), the amount of data is very large to begin with, which is not true in this case, and b), the other person has any reason whatsoever to understand your compression algorithm, and even then, it would c) be applied by computer, not by hand
11:30
Well, the thing is I work with equations like this:
In physics, the Navier–Stokes equations, named after Claude-Louis Navier and George Gabriel Stokes, describe the motion of fluid substances. These equations arise from applying Newton's second law to fluid motion, together with the assumption that the fluid stress is the sum of a diffusing viscous term (proportional to the gradient of velocity), plus a pressure term. The equations are useful because they describe the physics of many things of academic and economic interest. They may be used to model the weather, ocean currents, water flow in a pipe and air flow around a wing. The Navier–S...
Summation is not used unless there's large amount of things being added.
Ell
Ell
Mind you I would see that example as useful because everybody learns addition, subtraction etc.
if I desperately need to compress the description, then I can simply invoke a program to do the job
I don't need to be able to do it myself
@DeadMG: Sure, but I need to be able to do it myself. :-)
that's great, but I'm a student, not an academic ^^
11:32
@DeadMG: I'm a student too. :-P
I'm not saying that they serve no function, merely no function for students, and the ability to do the conversion is meaningless
whereas I've done several examinations which sum as "Did you remember what this mathematical symbol meant?"
what a worthless question
@DeadMG: And I agree 100%. But when they're required, I'll certainly use them.
"No, I didn't, and if I ever need to, then Wikipedia will remind me what basic concept it refers to"
My biggest problem with math symbols is that they are very inconsistent
@Pubby: How so?
At least within a subfield of mathematics they are remarkably consistent
11:33
Constants are. Except for i, which sometimes is j.
I mean * could mean 10 different things and each time uses different precedence
there are two e constant
Even when you use abuses of notation
and there's one equation which has both of them in the same equation
What's the other one?
11:34
I don't remember
that Tau guy was talking about it and I merely remember thinking "what the fuck, mathematics, now you're just being stupid"
I don't recall ever seeing any other e.
I have to second Cat Plus Plus
and he showed the equation and said that they were two different e constants
ah
elementary charge of an electron
That other e should be indexed then, or completely renamed.
11:37
@DeadMG: I almost always rename that to something else
Ah, physics constant.
Ell
Ell
Will a maths highschool teacher know about pushdown automata?
@Ell: Most probably not
In America, definitely not. (I know this from experience)
Ell
Ell
I'm in the Uk. But he's Irish. ;)
depends on how old he is
the older, the more likely, I think
11:40
High school maths teacher doesn't have to know CS.
Ell
Ell
errm I dont know really. on the lower end of middle aged?
If said instructor was a former college professor (I've actually had HS teachers like that), there's a slim chance.
Ell
Ell
Hmm I'm guessing he wont know :s
I usually end up learning a lot of these kinds of things on my own
Like C++, for instance.
@Insilico Sme here.
every scrap of anything useful in the last three years was all me.
11:42
It sucks that for all of high school I couldn't talk to anybody about C++
because no one understands it. :-/
heh
hardly a problem unique to high schools
Ell
Ell
@Insilico I cant talk to anyone about programming other than on here
stack overflow is good :D
too many professional programmers who don't understand it
@Ell Yeah, same here.
people's eyes just glaze over
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG how about other people on your course?
The good thing was that it was an excellent litmus test for potential friends
11:43
I avoid them
If their eyes don't glaze over when I talk about technical stuff
That's a potential friend right there
Otherwise, they're certainly not going to survive the onslaught of my random musings of technical shit.
Ell
Ell
sorry to interrupt, but does anyone else think this snippet of ruby is just awesome?
`Stack = Array.extract([
:last,
:push,
:pop,
:size,
:clear,
:inspect,
:to_s
])`
no, not particularly
Mind telling us what it does? This is Lounge<C++>, not Lounge<Ruby>.
Ell
Ell
how not? you can just create a stack class like that, just picking and choosing the methods you need
11:45
because it's thoroughly pointless?
Ell
Ell
@Insilico it creates a Stack class, like an array, but only has the methods last, push, pop, size, etc.
any class which can be defined so trivially has no need to exist
why would I ever, ever want a Stack instead of an Array?
@Ell: That's more to do with the fact that Ruby already provides array manipulation routines
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG its still pretty cool though. And not entirely pointless
you've created something of zero value
Ell
Ell
11:46
@DeadMG if you want to prevent iteration? o.O
C++ provides array manipulation routines as well without magical compiler support.
uh, ok
Preventing iteration on stacks is actually silly.
I have no idea who had this idea and why they thought it'd be a good one.
so because Ruby is pointlessly dynamically type orgasming, I will simply write in my documentation that any methods except those listed are internal implementation details and calling them yourself is UB.
problem solved
Who could explain me please the COrecursion definition? In wiki, I don't understand at all...
Ell
Ell
11:47
I just find it awesome how you can do it :L
@Ell: It's cool, but I don't think it's that cool.
What's the difference between simple recursion & corecursion?
@Ell What, you find it awesome that you've achieved something of zero value?
@user1131997 Corecursion = A calls B, and B calls A.
You can do that in any language where types can be created at runtime.
11:48
cause I can do that too
Simple recursion = A calls itself directly.
class A : B {}; // AMAGAD NEW CLASS! IT'S JUST LIKE THE OLD ONE!
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG but you cant to that at runtime!
@Potatoswatter stop! calls itselft directly, doens't recursion work ?
@Ell: Why would you want to do that at runtime?
11:49
because I frequently feel the need to waste my CPU cycles and destroy my type safety by delaying type checking until runtime
nail on the head there
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG exactly, now you're getting me!
Tip: don't discuss dynamic typing with DeadMG.
what I appear to be getting is that you seem to have little idea of what properties are actually desirable :P
@Potatoswatter you mean, that simple recustion ( let it be A ) , A calls A from itselft? And corecursion has some internal wrapper?
really don't understand
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG okay, its not necessarily useful. I just think its awesome :L
11:51
something which is not useful is by definition not awesome
could you give very simple but understandable piece of code to understand the definiton of corecursion and its difference with simple recursion?
@user1131997: According to Potatoswatter, simple recursion:

void A() { if(stillRecursing) { A(); } }
Corecursion:

void A() { if(stillRecursing) { B(); } }
void B() { if(stillRecursing) { A(); } }
@Insilico thanks, hope that explains it well enough!
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG not to me. Paintballing isn't exactly useful :L
@Ell: Sure it is. You get some physical exercise.
11:53
paintballing's purpose is to amuse the people playing the game
@Insilico thanks , I understand with your sample
in that sense, it is highly useful
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG well this code amuses me :)
code's purpose is to execute and produce a meaningful result
The difference between recursion and corecursion is rarely significant, but Valgrind doesn't much like corecursion.
Ell
Ell
11:54
@DeadMG its entertaining me, therefore it is useful, therefore it isn't by definition useless :L
That code is pretty much the same as std::stack, only with less boilerplate.
@Ell Code is, generally speaking, not for entertainment.
Ell
Ell
@DeadMG okay, I admit defeat :L You win! The code has now become useless. Well done :'(
;)
@CatPlusPlus I also believe that std::stack is equally useless, although arguably, you can change the underlying container of std::stack for fun and afaik, that code can't
@CatPlusPlus And no templating!
So… it's like using std::vector as std::stack by choosing to omit parts of the interface. Meh.
11:56
That's what adaptors do.
Ell
Ell
I don't believe it to be useless
Adaptors don't necessarily omit parts of an interface
In actual usage, you can retarget std::stack to another underlying container by changing the template parameter at the point you declare the std::stack object.
Ell
Ell
It tells the programmer that it is a stack, not a vector/array
But your adaptor needs to be redefined each time you use it for an object.
In reality, that's a lot more boilerplate than just naming a template.
11:57
@Ell Except as the code itself demonstrates, there is little meaningful difference.
There's semantic difference. That's what types are for.
Ell
Ell
@CatPlusPlus exactly! thats what I mean!
sometimes the discussions here make maths homework look entertaining in comparison.
@Ell: Yes, but what DeadMG is saying that making new types based on old types isn't really that awesome.
Considering that's how all statically-typed languages work.
Ell
Ell
@Insilico I just love ruby's dynamic metaprogramming is all :L

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