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10:00 PM
@Puppy Lua is way more GP than a DSL i had in mind
 
And even then I still sucked. Hard.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Come on, really? I think you are quite unfair there. C++ ican be used n a beginner-friendly fashion, it's just that many educators don't know how to do it.
 
I look at my old code and it's this horrendous piece of mutant crap that I wouldn't want in an actual project.
 
What's a GP again?
 
and I still believe you're absolutely wrong about DSLs not having real value
@Jefery General Purpose in this context
 
10:00 PM
Just To See How Fucked I Am, What Is Stack Vs Heap?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well, you could invent a new DSL for everything you need, and spend all your time bridging them and writing 9999 compilers, or you could just use a GP language, share your code, and not spend any time on inter-language bridges.
 
@nick heap is random-access, stack is continuous
 
And I seriously think I had good teachers. I mean, I would probably teach C++ the same way. And back then we didn't have all the cool C++11/14 stuff.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I actually couldn't get Google to produce any results, even with "language" appended.
 
Does The Stack Have Anything To Do With The Cache
 
10:01 PM
4348
Q: What and where are the stack and heap?

mattshaneProgramming language books explain that value types are created on the stack, and reference types are created on the heap, without explaining what these two things are. I haven't read a clear explanation of this. I understand what a stack is, but where and what are they (physically in a real com...

 
@nick Dont You Know How To Not Caps?
 
@Puppy it was mentioned in the Terra paper
 
@nick You Are Not Writing Titles Here
 
Not Caps?
 
@Puppy you're crafting strawman examples instead of looking at real usecases
I agree your points make a lot of sense
but you're deliberately ignoring things
 
10:02 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I've seen several uses of DSLs; it's just that none of them worked out.
 
How many have you seen that did?
 
none.
 
Perhaps you were only looking for failed ones?
 
I said the stack was stored in the CPU cache
its not true is it
 
I have no particular reason to look for failed DSLs.
> To test Terra’s suitability for DSL development, we created Orion, a
DSL for 2D stencil computations on images.
hmmmm.
 
10:04 PM
anyway, I believe this is a right point to paste that
A domain-specific language (DSL) is a computer language specialized to a particular application domain. This is in contrast to a general-purpose language (GPL), which is broadly applicable across domains, and lacks specialized features for a particular domain. There are a wide variety of DSLs, ranging from widely used languages for common domains, such as HTML for web pages, down to languages used by only one or a few pieces of software, such as Emacs Lisp for GNU Emacs and XEmacs. DSLs can be further subdivided by the kind of language, and include domain-specific markup languages, domain-specific...
 
"DSL" is a fancy name for "A bunch of Lisp macros".
 
@Puppy Oh, I thought Orion was existing outside of Terra as well
@EtiennedeMartel um what. That'd be an EDSL at the very least
 
I'm dying, time to go
 
well
 
See you guise
 
10:04 PM
it's far from compelling.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ok, that is your opinion resulting from your experience. Could you perhaps be so kind to point me where or to whom can I propose my book for review for inclusion on that 'definitive' list. I guess that someone should be looking at new books periodically if that list is to be called 'definitive'.
 
the paper doesn't really present any arguments in favour of Orion.
they only say that writing the raw bit manipulations directly in C didn't work for them.
 
@Rerito I'll see you on the other side
 
> Just another Gibbs sampler (JAGS) is a program for simulation from Bayesian hierarchical models using Markov chain Monte Carlo (MCMC), developed by Martyn Plummer. JAGS has been employed for statistical work in many fields, for example ecology, management, and genetics.
 
@KevinC Here is the place for that
That wiki is controlled by the Lounge
 
10:05 PM
it doesn't make any mention of comparisons to not-shit GP languages.
 
@KevinC Of course it's from my experience. Every single opinion you'll get will based on that person's experience. That's how it works.
 
@Puppy or, to not look too far, actually - do you consider HLSL/GLSL not compelling as well?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've been thinking about it.
but I actually think on further reflection that I do consider them not very compelling.
 
@Jefery Oh, so here is the discussion. It is a bit hard for me to follow.
 
@Puppy they are a basis of pretty much entire CG industry right now
 
10:06 PM
that's really no evidence in favour of them.
I'm not wholly sure how they're better than just a custom backend for C that targets the GPU.
 
@KevinC There are typically several discussions happening in parallel here.
 
well
 
@Puppy that has been tried out and met with failure
 
@Jefery Can I just post it somewhere as a notification so that people could have a look. I mean, this way my proposal migh easily get lost.
 
I guess you'd need a few extra bits as well
@BartekBanachewicz That's probably because so far, I've yet to experience anybody who could write a flexible compiler for shit.
 
10:07 PM
@KevinC What's your proposal again?
You should ask some owner to pin your message
 
as far as I can see, LLVM are the first people who even tried to make a proper compiler.
 
@Puppy doesn't that exactly say that in that case a DSL was a better solution?
@Puppy LLVM was used by apple for OpenGL as well
I believe it was one of its first usecases, years ago
 
yeah, but from memory, that's way after GLSL and such.
 
not that much after GLSL 1 appeared
and it was only meant as a fallback, not a real solution
 
anyway, what I'm saying is
just because the language is GP doesn't mean that the compilers were GP, and it's a GP compiler for a GP language that you would need.
 
10:09 PM
well, sure, but nowadays we have GP compilers and I can't see how they are pushing shader languages out
 
the shader languages have so much momentum they'll probably never get pushed out.
 
if you were indeed right about ALL DSLs having little to no value, I would expect them to be replaced
 
@nick Really :D
But then I'll be jealous...
 
replacement is a function not just of being better, but also of cost.
 
@Jefery It went out-of scope. I propose my book "Programming for Beginners - with C++" for review for inclusion in the 'definitive C++ book' list, under category 'Introductory, no previous experience', which currently has only one book (Stroustroup's). SOME chapters (slightly shortened) are available at www.programming4beginners.com .
6
 
10:10 PM
replacing the shader languages now would be tremendously expensive
 
well, I am going to play devil's advocate now
there appeared dialects of Haskell that were meant to be used in heavy compute scenarios backed by GPUs
I believe it's an ongoing effort
which would directly agree with what you're saying
that being said, Haskell is very keen on E DSLs
 
@KevinC How much experience do you have with C++?
 
@Jefery None, only C, see his last name?
 
in which case I can't really tell whether that means raw, separate DSLs were a failure, or whether EDSLs basically combine strenghts and remove weaknesses
 
EDSLs are a bit of a gray area.
 
10:13 PM
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main()
{
double x = 5;
cout << "x plus 3 equals " << x+3 << endl;
}
 
@Jefery A lot. Do I have to list it? Is it important? Note: book is for absolute beginners!
 
This is fairly bad
 
it's not really obvious what properties they possess.
 
> double
 
currently, I believe that they are a manifestation of having a shit compiler.
 
10:14 PM
> using namespace std;
 
@Puppy from one PoV having to create an EDSL means the language failed
 
but not wholly certain
 
@Puppy yeah, that
 
This is the classic hello word program which is riddled with bad practices that newbies pick up and then (you are the proof) vomit to other newbies.
 
@Puppy mmmmm. I find it very surprising (pleasantly!) coming from you.
 
10:14 PM
@KevinC Why are you using a double :P
 
@Jefery lol this is pretty bad
 
@Jefery I am of the opinion that arithmetic with type double is more intuitive for absolute beginenrs than type int arithmetic. That is why type int is introduced later.
7
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're the one who moderated his tone in this discussion, not me.
 
@KevinC Why?
 
@Jefery 5/2 = 2.5
(5.0 / 2) if you want
 
10:15 PM
@Puppy but then again I was never adamant about DSLs being exactly the best. I leaned to defend them because you only really attacked them.
 
@KevinC Your opinion is flawed. It's only a matter of time (read: very soon) that they see how fucking retarded floating point math is.
 
a few years ago I was a huge fan of C++/Lua hybrids
 
eh
I used to love Lua a lot, but as I've grown, I've realized that it's really... bad in many ways.
 
Surprise
They should have a variant of Sturgeons for software tooling
 
I guess we could both use some non-extremist opinions
 
10:17 PM
@Rapptz To me it seems that int math is more complex for them. With int, I have to explain integer division too soon. Just look at all the questions on Internet that beginners are posting when they don't get 5/2 right.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Smooth move
@BartekBanachewicz Now you like the js/haskell combi :)
 
It really bothers me for some reason when people do x+3 vs x + 3.
 
Yeah. That's clearly a syntax error. Or is vs a MSVC extension
 
> for (double i=1; i<=5; i++)
 
@BartekBanachewicz So far, I've grown more and more towards the "bad implementations" and "bad libraries" theory, rather than bad languages.
 
10:18 PM
 
@KevinC Everyone knows an int is an integer, and that integers can't hold decimal points.
 
All existing implementations of programming languages are terrible
 
languages only give you the possibility of a thing; you have to implement it and implement it well to make it happen.
 
@minitech Nice blue name. Can I have it?
 
It's how you know it's an implementation
 
10:18 PM
@sehe I think the fact that I can accept and use JS means at least that I was able to overcome my prejudice and approach the problems less religiously and more pragmatically. In principle, I still don't like it ;)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't like JS either, but there are ways to make it less unbearable.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I was joking, but I'll happily grant you that
There are always ways to make things bearable (hah!) - that's how we survive
 
@Nooble Ok, but those issues many of people here are mentioning, I mean, they are basically trivialities. I think a book for beginners is more about the pace of progression, the topics, the selected algorithms and examples, not about whether I start with int or double and whether I write x+3 or x + 3.
 
seheable
 
There you go
 
10:20 PM
@minitech hey, don't you dare insult my Turnip!
 
we use TypeScript at work, which is at least statically typed.
 
If I were writing a “how to program”, I’d probably go in the order of values, types, expressions, statements, functions, implementations.
 
So, I just created a paypal.me so Livecoding can actually send me my donations
 
and sometimes, the type system actually comes in handy.
 
Interesting turn of events
@Puppy cool
 
10:21 PM
@Puppy I believe TypeScript's type system has evolved a lot from where it began
 
and React can cover up a good part of the pain of having to use the DOM.
 
This is something I’ve been giving a lot of thought to, now that I’m taking programming classes
 
@KevinC Consistency in coding style is important.
 
They keep lying to students and it’s completely unnecessary
 
I think it is a good sign if dev teams actually decide to use something better than bare JS
 
10:21 PM
@Jefery Ok, but those issues many of people here are mentioning, I mean, they are basically trivialities. I think a book for beginners is more about the pace of progression, the topics, the selected algorithms and examples, not about whether I start with int or double and whether I write x+3 or x + 3.
 
not all of it by far, but a start.
 
Also, explaining float vs int is trivial.
 
Nooble!!! Hi :)
 
@KevinC I'm not sure this is function composition.
 
10:22 PM
@Jefery it's not at all /cc @KevinC
 
@TonyTheLion Hi.
 
I’m sure it’s not function composition
 
@Nooble Sup?
 
@KevinC You are using using namespace std;, std::endl too.
 
@Jefery I think it is function composition.
 
10:22 PM
function composition in principle is a function
 
Those are not trivialities.
 
@KevinC then you're wrong.
 
@TonyTheLion Hype because almost Friday!
@Jefery I use std::endl :(
 
In mathematics, function composition is the pointwise application of one function to the result of another to produce a third function. For instance, the functions f : X → Y and g : Y → Z can be composed to yield a function which maps x in X to g(f(x)) in Z. Intuitively, if z is a function of y, and y is a function of x, then z is a function of x. The resulting composite function is denoted g ∘ f : X → Z, defined by (g ∘ f )(x) = g(f(x)) for all x in X. The notation g ∘ f is read as "g circle f ", or "g round f ", or "g composed with f ", "g after f ", "g following f ", or "g of f", or "g on f...
 
@KevinC function composition... erm... composes functions
 
10:23 PM
@Jefery There is a chapter explaining namespaces. And, do many other books on the 'definitive' list do any different?
 
I like my shit flushed.
 
It's gonna be flushed nonetheless
 
@KevinC You shouldn't use using namespace std;.
That's really it
 
@KevinC regardless of whether they do, it's bad practice.
 
@Nooble Yay :) :D :) :)
 
10:24 PM
@KevinC but I'd say it's less of a sin than introducing misleading terms (still at composition being used inappropriately)
 
@ElimGarak: The changeling should have been a door.
 
@sehe I like it flushed immediately. (also it was a poor attempt at a joke)
 
@Jefery I'll check on function composition, I know, you want to get a new function, but I thought that nesting function calls is usually referenced by that name, too.
 
Not really.
 
@KevinC Do you have many things introduced that you think are right in your book as facts?
 
10:26 PM
@Nooble ikr. It's gonna flush immediately on newlines, 99% of the time
 
Honestly I don't think your book is anywhere near as ready.
Sure, you get some of the very basics thing right, but you also get something wrong. Also there doesn't seem to be any chapter regarding objects, structures, templates, algorithms (library), boost, and so on.
So many important topics are missing.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I think all of the things introduced in my book are corect (what else) except when the book notes that it is an oversimplication. If there is something wrong, I'll fix it.
 
@Jefery i believe he said only parts are available on the website
 
As of right now it seems like the usual average tutorial of which there are thousands on the internet.
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah apparently there's more
 
Ven
@Puppy as someone who hasn't done much lua, but always heard its virtues touted, care to elaborate?
 
10:30 PM
But I mean, classes seem to be the last chapter of the book.
Right before the epilogue
 
@Jefery If you think that templates, and Boost are for beginners (especially in a 320 page book), than I must say that yo have very strange ideas about what beginners are able to figure out. Maybe some simple templates. Are you sure your assesment is right? Also, look on 'printed edition' for list of other chapters, you are missing 60% of the book material.
 
From the contents there doesn't seem to be anything about inheritance, polymorphism, constrexpr, auto, lambdas, smart pointers and so on.
 
@Ven it has a lot of limitations that can be summed up as the fact that the language isn't nearly powerful enough to express advanced logic conveniently and safely.
 
@KevinC They should figure out things that are important to figure out, not things that are easy to figure out. You're the guy who tries to look for his keys under the light when he dropped them in the dark.
 
@Jefery In a beginner's book? In 312 pages, polymorphism? That is insane!!
 
10:32 PM
@KevinC It's one of the things you should start with, since it's so important.
 
I'm sorry.
 
I think that templates are more important than runtime polymorphism.
 
I cant read all the comments SLOW DOWN!!
 
what polymoprhism are you talking about anyway... adhoc, parametric, subclass?
 
To me it just looks like a book made for the sake of making money. It adds nothing to new to many other tutorials available for free online.
 
10:33 PM
@ScarletAmaranth I believe subclass/virtual
 
@BartekBanachewicz not using proper nomenclature doesn't really help a beginner :-\
 
C++ is complicated. Trying to oversimplify it for the sake of staying in a certain number of pages because it's supposed to be "for beginners" makes no sense to me.
Some of the points you make here are of course very nice.
But you don't seem to actually put them into practice in your book.
Except maybe for the std::vector vs C-arrays thing.
 
@Jefery Of course it makes sense. Stroustrup did in "Tour Of C++" if you will
The pain is in "oversimplify" but there's nothing wrong with limiting scope for the sake of brevity
 
@sehe Is that an appeal to authority?
 
Yes
 
10:36 PM
Glad we agree.
 
It's also a good use of counter example.
Unless you happen to know that "Tour Of C++" is a flawed book because of the omissions
 
IMHO C++ should be learned when you already know some other language. When you can skip through most of the introductory course and get to what makes C++ a different language.
 
start with Malbolge and it can only get better thereafter
 
C++ is just too vast to call it beginner friendly and expect to only teach like 5% and call it a day.
That's what spawns the amount of programmers that when you tell them "C++" they reply with "Oh yeah, C with classes!"
 
@KevinC you should fix your book telling people to use VS2013 :)
 
10:38 PM
Ok. I think that a lot of important parts of C++ fit into a 320 pages book. I think that it is important to explain basic algorithms well and use a lot of examples. I'm also fond of functional-style, which is why I picked C++ (it uses call-by value, without side-effects). I think C++ is a perfect language for beginners if the language is utilized correctly.
This is not a book about entire C++. It is a book ment to get a beginner going and then he can pick a more advanced book and understand it more easily. I think that is impotrant. I think that it is not important toto explain every featur
 
@melak47 Dear god.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Parametric is the most important, I think.
 
C++ without side effects on call by value ^^?
 
but subclass is pretty critical too
 
copy constructor can launch missles
 
10:40 PM
@KevinC Read above.
 
@Jefery I think C++ is very beginner friendly, but the teacher must use C++ in the appropriate way for a beginner.
 
Then we agree to disagree.
 
@ScarletAmaranth that might be fine in a move constructor (move the missiles from one silo to another ;) )
 
Yes, its C++, mostly on call-by-value. that is beginner friendly. I did not introduce non-pure functions untill it was necessary.
 
There are no "pure" functions in your book.
 
10:41 PM
@melak47 sure; I make it my business to launch missles only in constructs called in implicit contexts
 
I guess you could call constexpr functions "pure", but that's not introduced there.
 
@Jefery Add is pure, and in chapters which are missing most functions are pure.
 
@KevinC I don't know what you would consider not beginner friendly then
 
Not beginner friendly: side effects, pointers, information overload, reference.style topics, tempo of progression etc...
 
@KevinC "pure functions" means almost nothing in the context of C++
 
10:43 PM
ahahahah, can't believe I almost missed this
 
Your int add(int,int) function is as pure as int add(int, int) { std::cout << "side effects ayyy"; }
As I said, maybe you can call constexpr "pure", because they actually have to follow a certain amount of rules.
 
@Jefery add(int, int) { launchMissles(); }
 
Maybe you can say that it's deterministic.
And yeah, maybe I agree.
 
@Jefery 'pure functions' is not mentioned in the standard, but it makes beautiful programs. I'm more considered about nice algorithms than about perfomance. Optimizations are not beginner-friendly, and are irellevant in introductory topics.
 
But "pure". Meh.
@KevinC Define "pure functions" in the context of C++
 
10:46 PM
I think you’re just being nitpicky now
 
@Jefery Ok, whay isnt Add a pure function?
 
3 mins ago, by Jefery
Your int add(int,int) function is as pure as int add(int, int) { std::cout << "side effects ayyy"; }
 
anyone in here familiar with Parse?
 
Purity has to do with side effects, determinism has to do with the logic of the algorithm.
It's no nitpick
 
@shadowmoses Is that Parse Luthor, Lex's brother?
 
10:47 PM
I wish
 
I think you mean that your add function is deterministic. Not pure.
 
Can I quote the book about pure functions? Ok, from memory: Pure functions have the return value as the only result of their execution. They dont read anything, they don't input anything, they don't draw anything. (And there is some more, details and further explanation)
 
And Haskell function is pure.
@KevinC Yeah
All C++ functions are inherently in the side effect context.
 
In computer programming, a function may be considered a pure function if both below statements about the function hold: The function always evaluates the same result value given the same argument value(s). The function result value cannot depend on any hidden information or state that may change while program execution proceeds or between different executions of the program, nor can it depend on any external input from I/O devices (usually—see below). Evaluation of the result does not cause any semantically observable side effect or output, such as mutation of mutable objects or output to I/O devices...
 
There's nothing preventing you from printing stuff on the screen in the implementation of your function.
 
10:49 PM
@Jefery Really?
 
The fact that you are disciplined enough to not write side effects yourself inside the function is irrelevant.
 
@Nooble yes
every C++ function has access to global variables, global memory, devices etc.
 
@Jefery Well. No, it’s not.
 
Maybe it's not even deterministic actually.
What happens if it overflows?
IIRC it's UB unless the integer type is unsigned
 
“deterministic” makes as much as or less sense than “pure”
 
10:50 PM
Pure functions cannot print stuff.
 
You seem to be arguing that purity is a property of the implementation in C++. Sure, but so’s determinism.
 
Pure functions cannot call impure functions.
 
And then you are not even just entering the world of side effects, you are entering the world of "Ouch, I accidentally started WW3".
 
And you can still say that a particular implementation is pure.
 
If your printing function is pure, then you can call it from a pure function... ^_^
 
10:51 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but you don't have to access those things. I'm guessing that doesn't matter?
 
No, Im not arguing anything about C++, I'm saying that the biook uses a lot of functions that can be considered 'pure' and advises the reader that it is a good way of thinking.
 
As I said, something as simple and int + int can trigger UB, which is not side effect free.
 
Pure functions are easy 'to compose' in a program, they are easier to follow for beginners.
int + int, right, because of overflow.
 
Function composition is not what you think it means
 
C'mon, it's at least the third time people argue about what « pure » means this month.
 
No, i know what it means in mathematics, but I thought it is a common term to express nested function calls, too.
 
Nope
 
@Morwenn Let's make it an argument against your french interpunction instead ;p
 
@ElimGarak he he
 
10:55 PM
@Griwes More readable than typos. And on the plus side, it annoys people.
 
Three reviews, two of which from people who have never reviewed anything... In the span of a week. 5/5 would buy again.
 
@Jefery Ok, I'll check on 'function composition', and change if necessary.
 
@ElimGarak ...I half expected the blackfriday link...
 
A pure function is a function that hasn't yet been modified by a Java developer.
 
@ElimGarak Also same floor lol.
 
10:56 PM
@KevinC I kinda have to go. I don't think your book should be added to that list. I hope you make a shitton of money from your book anyway.
Good luck.
 
@Jefery O, thanks for the chat, and suggestions.
I don't mind critique.
 
Also, the artwork is 11/10.
 
hi elim :) <3
 
Sup Tony <3 When's your book coming out? :D
 
When I decide to write it
 
10:58 PM
"How to roar loudly"
 
@KevinC I like your attitude.
 
What should my book be about?
 
Also you survived the Lounge for more than 10 minutes, which makes you great already.
 
@Jeremy HOW TO ROAR LOUD
hides
 
"HOW 2 RITE GUD"
 
10:59 PM
The intricacies of being a Lion in Lounge<C++>
@Jefery pretty true
 
HOW TO WRITE BOOK
 
most newbies survive less than a minute
 
@ElimGarak When's your book gonna come out?
 
"50 shades of black and white in the Lounge"
 
@Griwes page by page
 

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