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22:00
question
how does std::variant<int, int> work?
presumably it doesn't and I'm fine with that
Also, the usual approach of 'throw more memory and/or indirection at it' for basic->strong guarantee is one make_unique away for the client :v
oh you have to pass an index
lol
emplace_index<0>
@Rapptz static_assert(types_unique<int, int>::value, "no!");
:ok:
22:01
I don't know what was the result of the meeting for flat containers. I liked the idea that users could be able to choose the algorithm used to store the data.
@Rapptz why would you want this? what for?
@melak47 generic programming
user406009
I don't think flat containers are needed in the standard.
@LucDanton how generic is it if you have to provide the index yourself?
@Rapptz extremely
22:03
(I'm thinking of a case where it's std::variant<Args...>)
@Rapptz index_list magic etc
how would you know what to do with it though?
I mean I just don't see it unless you put in an extraordinary amount of effort
user406009
I think boost simply uses the first index.
@Lalaland Game developers think otherwise it seems.
@Morwenn since when do game devs care what's in the standard? won't they just write their own? :D
22:05
@melak47 Well, SG14 is mostly about game developers.
user406009
Shouldn't the game devs care much more about VLAs?
@Morwenn Can't imagine gamedevs picking up a gun and blasting some jaffa
Just look at the papers: fixed-point numbers, flat containers, better memory allocators handling, std::arena and ring buffers.
user406009
You need language support for VLA. You don't need it for flat containers.
ew VLAs
Ell
Ell
22:06
I don't see the problem with VLAs really
void frobnicate(size n, int array[n]);
@Morwenn Flat-pack?
user406009
@Ell they screw up a lot of stuff.
user406009
Like sizeof
@MartinJames What? ._.
22:07
@Lalaland Sure, but VLAs are worthless and flat containers are only somewhat worthless.
Ell
Ell
I mean c++ style VLAs, ie dynarray
std::dynarray is RIP
@Morwenn std:IkeaContainer
dynarray is such a tremendous pack of shit, being the only person to vote against it in that meeting is the #1 reason I stopped making proposals and stuff.
std::variant<std::dynarray>. Discuss.
Ell
Ell
22:08
@Rapptz yeah
@Ell it’s wishful thinking
Ell
Ell
@Puppy What is so shit?
@MartinJames Lowl :p
basically everything about it.
I can't name a single thing about dynarray that's worth having.
pick any aspect of it and I'll tell you why it's so bad.
@Ell std::dynarray could maybe be on the stack or maybe be dynamically allocated.
22:09
that's a fair start.
Which basically means it's maybe std::vector, maybe std::array.
1. pretend you have a class that solves your problem, give it a fancy name 2. problem is now solved, and we didn’t even have to work it out!
@Puppy The only thing I know about it is the name. The name sucks.
why would you use std::dynarray in that case
"Hey guys, we need dynamically allocated stack array!" "Right, let's go allocate it on the heap"
Ell
Ell
22:09
@Rapptz oh lol
how did I never know that
user406009
@Rapptz What the fuck? Who came up with that stupid idea?
Ell
Ell
I thought it either "alloc"'d on the stack or failed
@Rapptz so..variant<vector<T>, array<T,N>> with small array optimization?
the other semantics of dynarray are even worse.
VLA syntax in parameter names is among the only things that do not seem to be too much broken.
22:10
@Puppy What? So it's a vector?
@MartinJames Nope, it might be allocated on the stack too.
so there's a bunch of fun UB involved w.r.t. stack overflows and that kind of thing as well.
and it's not even movable, etc.
@Puppy Umm OK, I've heard enough.
it's literally the worst of stack allocation combined with the worst of heap allocation.
but somehow even worse than that
I was watching a CppCon talk and someone brought up std::dynarray
saying they wanted it
that’s what a fancy name does
22:11
and then Gabriel Dos told him the paper isn't dead, just no one is working on it
sounds pretty dead to me
which is a big pity
Has anybody here ever tried an arduino? If so, how was it?
me
pretty good
user406009
@Jefffrey Yes.
Also, a subset of VLAs syntax and semantics is fine, but you have to ban half of what can generally be used on types to make it sane, and that's too much special-casing. Too hard to maintain.
user406009
22:12
I find that they are of limited use.
@Rapptz What did you use it for?
@Jefffrey me soon. Son's birthday coming up
@Lalaland How so?
I made lights and a controller
was pretty pleasant
@Jefffrey Nah, they're too big. A lab is the largest dog we would take on.
22:12
had fun if I'm being honest
no one has fun being honest
user406009
@Jefffrey It's hard to come up with stuff to do with one.
sounds like a personal problem
but a valid one
A lot of people seem to make robots that avoid obstacles
> IE8 Bug in bitwise operators for JavaScript here
22:14
Sounds cool
@Lalaland AFAIK it's full of "shields" and things you can attach it to, so it's fairly easy to find anything you need
How did you find the language?
it's just C++
I'm reading here: arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage, and it seems to be more like C than C++
Ell
Ell
@Jefffrey it came with the ide
;)
there are templates
and operator overloading
and classes
sounds like C++ to me
Oh wow
I can't seem to find them in the reference page
Not even a mention of classes
22:16
String
it's some dialect of C++
not sure which one
I think C++98
Weren't templates added in C++03?
I couldn't change the compiler flags back then
@Jefffrey no
@Jefffrey would they document the programming language c++ in the arduino manual? That sounds like a very odd expectation
@Rapptz Yeah, but I mean, you writing classes and overloaded functions and template functions
Is that possible?
yeah?
I did it myself lol
user406009
22:19
IIRC, it just uses gcc.
The full video of the Spring Valley High School Police Officer brutally assaulting a peaceful student. https://t.co/oHIS8GrtSS
wth
@Rapptz Well, the documentation doesn't show that :c
@Jefffrey Besides value initiaization and std::vector being forced to use contiguous storage, you can assume that C++03 did not add anything.
there are even some libraries that port the stdlib to arduino
@Jefffrey No. They were one of the earlier features of C++- before exceptions and such, if I recall.
22:20
@sehe Expecting the arduino language to be documented in the arduino language reference. That's odd?
Yes. If it's C++
That's like expecting arithmetic to be explained with the 7-segment display
maybe I should make a project
with my arduino
sounds fun
Not having a project is one of the main reasons I hardly ever start anything new.
22:22
@sehe wtf
user406009
@Rapptz Perhaps you should write yet another proposal: "Arduinos and std::varaint, why our current solutions are not general enough"
user406009
:P
Ell
Ell
dev-scheme>guile eh whyy
It seems possible to compile C++ code in ARM mode for arduino
@sehe that was horrible
wtf
22:28
@TonyTheLion I have no backstory
@Jefffrey well, it is just gcc.
A gcc 4.8.1 even, so you can have C++11 no problem
@sehe me neither, but in the video, it just looks like the cop attacks that girl because she (I'm speculating) may not have been willing to cooperate.
still no excuse for that cop to get that violent
jeez
@TonyTheLion yeah. it's silly what people think they can do
@melak47 Awesome, thanks
user406009
22:32
Let me guess, it that video from the glorious USA?
I'm sorry but I won't jump on the ACAB train with you guys
I see someone get beaten by someone else and this saddens me, but I won't judge before getting a reasonable backstory to it.
hmm...yikes. so there's this stack trace function, which requires an instruction pointer, frame pointer, and stack pointer. it saves *(sp-1), changes it , then restores later. see line 223 here: read.pudn.com/downloads58/sourcecode/embed/205887/src/arch/i86/…
but how do I know if I have the right stack pointer? :S
What do you mean "right stack pointer"
well, say I obtain the stack pointer...then do a function call, put local variables on the stack and whatnot. now the value I retrieved doesn't represent the actual current value of the stack pointer does it? so what the hell is it modifying it for :S
@Jefffrey what is that? ACAB?
user406009
22:45
All Cops Are Bad
Nobody said that
user406009
Yes, but some could claim that we should give the cop the benefit of the doubt.
user406009
Perhaps that girl was reaching for a gun?
user406009
Or someone could have called in the cop and said she was.
Ell
Ell
22:53
okay
Wait, why was she being arrested?
It seems that Nasa developed a Boost.Units equivalent, bad not as good.
@Morwenn it's compact and waterproof, though
And has increased EMF resistance
@Morwenn whoa, so did I! why did nobody tell me I worked at Nasa :p
A rigorous proof :-) https://t.co/3ihO2puyXs
2
user406009
23:03
But, but, but 1/0 = ±∞ (depending on how you approach the limit)
user406009
Won't someone think of the math!
@TonyTheLion Good one :D
> There will likely be an impact on legacy user code that has not been updated to modernize use of these names in the ~20 years they will have been deprecated when the next standard is released.
user406009
Hah, legacy user code is C++'s bread and butter.
Guess what I got.
user406009
A girlfriend?
It's great I know.
Ell
Ell
noice
user406009
Cool.
23:20
@Lalaland Nah, that was a couple'a'days ago
microsoft store grand opening? or what
@melak47 Yeah.
@GregorMcGregor RIP
This means I get to access Microsoft events.
I'm so special :D
@Nooble Does it involve explosives
23:21
@Lalaland :P
@AnalPhabet Hopefully.
It's at 5th ave.
user406009
Did you already go?
Yeah.
That's how I got the badge.
user406009
Any really cool new stuff there?
user406009
That would potentially be worth purchasing?
No clue.
user406009
23:26
Or was it just a fancy store?
I just wanted to board their amazing bus.
@Lalaland I think yeah.
What's the "Association Bonus" on August 6 here?
user406009
Wow, just read about it.
@AnalPhabet Fuck if I know.
user406009
5 floors.
23:28
@Nooble I want some too
Mebbe it's from that groups thingamajig
@Lalaland 4 of which are dedicated entirely to Visual Studio's install.
user406009
The pictures look just like an apple store. Microsoft is really trying to reinvent themselves.
@AnalPhabet You opened an account on another SE site.
@Borgleader e.g. [Programmers] or [Islam]?
wtv.SE
23:29
That's a yes, then. Thanks
@Nooble So the Internet but strictly inferior?
user406009
@Puppy There is a certain value to physically seeing products.
@Puppy And with fancy badges.
user406009
Test the weight, screen quality, etc.
@Borgleader Thats actualy a very interesting swedish site that's not available to outsiders.
23:32
@Lalaland Sure, it's about -1.
user406009
Not to mention that you can demo the software right there and then.
Ell
Ell
@Puppy that ain't true
@Lalaland That's worth squat really.
@AnalPhabet You gain +100 on every site if you have at least 200 rep on at least one of them
23:33
the demo is nothing more than a marketing video.
@milleniumbug Oh, cool
it's worth less than any review from an even somewhat trustworthy source
It's a one time bonus
it won't tell you about any actual downsides of owning the product.
@Ell It's more like -2, I know
user406009
@Puppy They have fully functional laptops with copies of Microsoft office you can screw around with.
23:34
@Lalaland That is not even remotely representative of actually doing shit with Office if you bought it.
> Video nie je možné prehrať, nemáte nainštalovaný Adobe Flash Player.
Najnovšiu verziu Adobe Flash Player-u si môžete stiahnuť zdarma tu:
@Lalaland Why on earth would I want to "screw around" with MS office?
Ell
Ell
You can't get the feel of a keyboard from a picture
user406009
^
Stupid parenting right there
23:36
nor can you get a proper feel for it in a ten-minute demo.
user406009
@Borgleader That can easily get you shot in the US.
you'd need to own the aforementioned for weeks at least.
unless you know you are looking for
> Stupid parenting right there
@sehe too bad
user406009
23:37
I would argue the majority of the value of the stores comes from them being a giant advertisement.
couldn't find it elsewhere
user406009
If you are walking along, you might see the store.
that's only value for the company.
it's not value for the user.
user406009
Advertisement is all about value only for the company.
it's less than zero value for the user, since you may make an irrational purchase based on irrelevant marketing materials just because you're feeling tired today and want to buy something nice
user406009
23:38
People almost never admit to making irrational choices.
Video will not play, you do not have Adobe Flash Player installed.
The latest version of Adobe Flash Player-in can be downloaded for free here:

What part of this is too bad?
that's fairly immaterial.
@CaptainGiraffe That it cannot be played
all I said was that the store was strictly inferior to the Internet, and for a consumer, that's completely true.
@Borgleader well, the fact that it could get the kid killed is the last thing I'd criticize here.
How about respect, taste, awareness of public order etc.?
ITT Lounge<FactualOpinion>++
23:41
I'm going to sleep soon.
@Lalaland Orange tip though.
@Morwenn Thanks for the advance warning :)
I'm going to sleep in a while.
Orange tips are horrible idea because it's vulnerable both to false positives and false negatives
very tru
23:42
@sehe It gives people a few minutes to badmouth me in my face if needed before I can calmly go to sleep :D
i have two moods: ・sleep is for the weak ・sleeping for a week
@milleniumbug just the tip though
@sehe Yeah, I guess I could have been more explicit: "Shitty and stupid parenting right there"
I don't mind at all about the stupid part. It's the shitty that gets me
user406009
Well, the stores do provide some entertainment value.
@sehe I thought you un-followed that guy
user406009
23:43
They usually have tons of cool shit in therm.
@Borgleader I think I mentioned his jokes got old quick ("I'm so ugly"). But it has improved somewhat (mainly just reduced volume lately)
@sehe I unfollowed him recently after like the 4th time he posted "eminem's daughter is so hot" tweet
@Lalaland Did you just praise shops for having merchandise?
@Borgleader I didn't notice those. Is she?
I'm good at mental blocking
user406009
If it's interesting stuff, yeah.
He periodically retweets it, yeah
23:44
@sehe :Well, he just praised Win 10, for having MS office..
Oh. Ok then. Carry on.
Who does such a thing.
I'd never do such an unimaginative thing
@thecoshman I can remind you of this periodically
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
@sehe She's definitely not bad looking
Why is the "mun" <- "stun" funny?
what
@CaptainGiraffe A few loungers like Kerbal Space Program
i dont think its meant to be funny
@Morwenn Good night, may you sort many sheeps in your sleep.
@Morwenn wait, whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
@Borgleader I don't sort nor do I sheep in my sleep :p
These times I've mostly nightmares where I lose my hair :(
@CaptainGiraffe it was 'mug', 'pug', 'pun' before
23:48
@Morwenn :(
it's still changing
@Morwenn Hair is presius
@Morwenn dat URL (@Chimera?!)
@Borgleader That's illegal now.
@CaptainGiraffe huh?
23:50
@Borgleader I still have some 65 Watt contraband in my storage.
Not illegal, but took too much space. "Wat" will do.
"WAT" if you're particularly flustered
Honestly, lowercase « wat » alone is already a strong form of expression.
@sehe but its a funny picture :(
Is it
23:54
I was considering the legality if selling a regular old fashioned light-bulb in the EU.
Maybe if you shrink it. And make it fully transparent. And float over the other content on the page
That one is better:
user image
6
@CaptainGiraffe I know. , besides, you explained in time
@Morwenn rofl
Why is it funny to begin with? None of you have seen old people without teeth?
23:55
If the Lounge was a restaurent, it would use these spoons
@sehe You obviously don't know your memes :(
@sehe a) its a meme, b) its her expression that gets me, not her lack of teeth (which i hadnt really noticed tbh)
no teeth yet so fat ... fake teeth do wonders ...
@Morwenn I do. And that's why I ask
Anyway, I'm off now.
Lots of love & love of lots ♥
23:58
@Borgleader That is what makes the expression funny, almost exclusively
@sehe Memes are hardly funny by themselves, the repetition makes them funny somehow. It could be whatever more or less picturing the wat expression but ended up being this image for some reason.
@sehe Oh, you got that? I appreciate it. I never know when someone groans or snickers to my tcp packets. Even when they get delivered by the very content aware http. Something gets lost in translation over these darn protocols.

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