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user406009
3:00 AM
Perhaps Elim has the right idea. We should get a bot with room owner privileges so we can do vote kicks.
 
A better idea would be a bot that automatically gives write access to anyone who isn't on a blacklist. Then we can go into gallery mode.
 
user406009
@Mysticial Nah, we need to allow new people.
 
user406009
A static Lounge is a dead Lounge.
 
@Lalaland Read again, it auto-gives access to everyone who isn't blacklisted.
 
user406009
Oops, misread as whitelist.
 
3:02 AM
A bot that auto-kicks the blacklisted achieves the same, but less convoluted no?
 
user406009
I still think that would be a tad confusing. It would be simpler to just auto-kick people on that blacklist.
 
telkitty is harmless.. I don't understand all the drama
 
@LucDanton After a few kicks mods get notified.
 
@LucDanton We could end up getting spammed with the "X has been kicked by bot messages."
 
And they will probably boot the bot.
 
3:03 AM
we already have a (Ro)bot
adding another one would hurt its feelings
 
user406009
@ʞɔᴉN People claim that she targets certain victims in a way that it doesn't affect the rest of the chat. I don't really know.
 
user406009
I am true neutral.
 
@Lalaland I fail to understand
 
13 hours ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
Everybody is kind of an asshole here
I thought this would get 16 stars or something
 
@AndyProwl He's not wrong
 
3:06 AM
my theory is Lounge generates drama if there isn't anything interesting going on
4
 
Fuck, I'm sweating all over.
I think I have a fever..
 
@Borgleader not saying he is :P
@Mysticial IIRC that's pretty much Jerry's description of LRiO. (This observation doesn't mean anything, I just found the similarity interesting.)
 
@ThePhD get some sleep
 
I can't
I feel like I'm on goddamn fire
 
3:10 AM
ugh
 
And then it's going to happen
where everything suddenly feels super cold
and I feel like I need to bundle up even though it's already pretty warm
 
when you can't sit down on the toilet seat because it's too cold?
 
Pretty much.
 
rip
 
user406009
That sounds pretty sucky. I would get off the computer, grab one of my trashy YA novels and curl up in my blankets.
 
user406009
3:11 AM
I always make sure to keep a couple around.
 
enter a week-long medically induced coma
you'll still be sick but you won't experience it :)
 
ok I'm done with the transcript
 
user406009
Darn, I just checked cppcon 2014, and it's going to take them like 2 months to upload the videos. Darn.
 
good
 
3:31 AM
@AndyProwl In fairness to LRiO, he did make more in the way of positive contributions, both to the Lounge and to SO. His attacks were much more on large groups of people, instead of individuals.
 
@JerryCoffin I was mostly referring to the 'walk the fine line' part
 
/cc @Borgleader @Lalaland @ElimGarak
I've fixed it. I have done it.
 
is this modern art?
 
My engine is the greatest.
@AndyProwl Yes, and its going to sell for millions.
@AndyProwl I call it "bicolor square meets the darkness".
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin What was LRiO primarily arguing against?
 
3:34 AM
@AndyProwl Yup--that's simply pretty close to a necessity to get into the situation in the first place. If they don't push close to (and beyond) the rules pretty regularly, there's no problem. If they exceed the rules by a lot very often at all, they get booted outright, and the problem disappears. The only way to get this sort of long-term problem is by somebody walking that line.
@Lalaland He didn't "argue against", he attacked. Most often Americans (even in cases where there was no indication of American involvement at all), but various other groups as well.
 
@ThePhD take several screenshots then
 
One step closer to gradients.
I really do need to get the proper algorithm for it going, however.
So that someone defines a bunch of color points in a shape
and then I have to create a point at each of those, triangulate the shape around those points, and then give them the colors.
 
> P.9: Don't waste time or space
> Reason: This is C++.
I'm wondering if I like that reason or not
it does sound a bit arrogant
like, come on, you could write down a few explanatory words
 
Arrogance in a style guide by Sutter & Stroustrup? Oh no!
 
3:40 AM
@AndyProwl I'm pretty sure I don't. It's not really a reason at all.
 
yeah
 
That said, there is an elaboration if you scroll down.
 
@Borgleader And not a single OpenGL call in sight
 
congratz
 
Thanks!
 
A few are about as thinly disguised as humanly possible though.
gl::Disable( gl::DEPTH_TEST );
gl::Disable( gl::CULL_FACE );
 
@JerryCoffin AWW DAMN I forgot those. ;~:
RIP the dream.
 
@JerryCoffin Hahaha, nice catch. I scrolled too far to notice those.
ok bed time
ttyl
 
3:59 AM
@Borgleader Nighty night, sleep tight!
 
It's Saturday and I'm in a rotten mood… why am I even trying to work?
 
user406009
Why would you even be working on Saturday in the first place?
 
Deadline. Also I'm unemployed and there's nothing to do in my town.
(I'm writing ISO proposal papers for the conference this October.)
 
@Potatoswatter Free air conditioning.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm paying for it, but it is nice.
 
user406009
4:11 AM
For interests sake, what's the general gist of the proposal?
 
@Lalaland Add syntax for accessors. Formally, mark functions so the compiler can tell when the result aliases a parameter, and then use that for lifetime extension and better diagnostics. bit.ly/genlife .
 
ugh morning
 
Good evening, fellow cyber-surfers!
 
I've pretty much finished three proposals already and there's more to go…
 
How have your days been on the Information Superhighway?
 
4:14 AM
I'll see your breakfast and dinner and raise you a lunchtime.
 
lol information superhighway
is this 1997
 
user406009
Your "mark functions so the compiler can tell when the result aliases a parameter" sounds pretty similar to what Rust does.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva :D
 
@Lalaland Reference?
 
@Mikhail Yes, the whole warp stalls. When it is scheduled again is unspecified.
 
4:16 AM
@Lalaland Are you serious or just trolling me?
 
user406009
@Potatoswatter Rust values have a certain lifetime. When you have a function, the result has to have a lifetime as well.
 
user406009
fn x_or_y<'a, 'b>(x: &'a str, y: &'b str) -> &'a str {
 
user406009
So, you are able to statically determine the lifetime of the result from the parameters.
 
user406009
I'll have to finish reading your proposal to see if my analogy is actually correct.
 
@Lalaland ok… I just uploaded an update btw… and now I found: doc.rust-lang.org/book/lifetimes.html
 
4:20 AM
@jaggedSpire evening
 
@jaggedSpire Hiyo.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva "Warp"?
 
@ʞɔᴉN Is there a mumble rumbling?
 
@ThePhD Warp, wavefront, subgroup, SIMD unit. Same thing.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Uh. I'll just assume those are all the same!
 
@ThePhD It's a thing that lets you teleport between two points in space - effectively moving faster than the speed of light.
 
4:23 AM
@Mysticial :v
 
@ThePhD lol, essentially the GPU scheduling unit is group of "threads", packed together in a "warp"
NVIDIA uses the words "threads" and "warp", AMD says "work item" and "wave front", Intel will say "SIMD lane" and "SIMD unit"
So in a warp of 32 threads you have, well, 32 threads executing simultaneously. If one of those stalls for some reason (memory request, instruction dependency...), the whole warp stalls.
 
Is CUDA hard-coded to 32 per warp?
 
ah
 
The actual SIMD width wasn't always 32 but now it is
AMD's actual SIMD width is 16, but instructions get repeated 4 times
 
4:27 AM
bytes
 
I assume CUDA's width is in threads rather than a fixed size.
 
Well the warp size itself is not configurable, the work group size is.
 
So in like Haswell, you have 32 bytes. But it can be 32 bytes, 16 words, 8 double-words/floats, 4 quad-words/doubles.
 
Ok, CUDA is 128 bytes then. 32 floats. There is no higher-degree of parallelism. (ie, no 256 halfs or 512 chars, you have to code that yourself)
 
user406009
4:28 AM
@Potatoswatter After doing some reading of your proposal. (Which is very well written BTW), it seems like I was sorta half correct.
Rust does its lifetime tracking in order to throw errors on code like "char const * s_ptr = std::string( "hello" ).c_str();". You are trying to solve the more difficult problem of making that code actually work.
 
user406009
I hope you have the best of luck! :)
 
So if you're working on byte-sized data, a Haswell core would be on parity with a CUDA warp not counting the clock-speed and dual-issue.
Do GPUs do superscalar execution?
 
Myeah kind of but not a lot
You can mix some DP and FP instructions
But there's a lot of constraints
 
That would be expected without OOE.
The earlier atom processors were superscalar, but no OOE. So there were a ton of restrictions.
 
Isn't atom dog slow?
 
4:31 AM
@jaggedSpire dunno, havent been on
 
yeah
I have an Atom netbook. It's pretty damn slow.
Those early Atoms didn't even have register renaming.
 
Do GPUs have register renaming?
I'm gonna guess no without OOE, since the two tend to go together.
 
I don't know what that is
 
In computer architecture, register renaming refers to a technique used to avoid unnecessary serialization of program operations imposed by the reuse of registers by those operations. == Problem definition == In a register machine, programs are composed of instructions which operate on values. The instructions must name these values in order to distinguish them from one another. A typical instruction might say, add X and Y and put the result in Z. In this instruction, X, Y, and Z are the names of storage locations. In order to have a compact instruction encoding, most processor instruction sets...
 
4:33 AM
@Lalaland Well I'm also taking the simplification that lifetimes can't be named, and they only attach to local declarations.
I'll mention you in the credits if you don't mind giving a suitable name…
(Along with adding a mention of Rust, of course.)
 
No, GPUs definitely don't do that
Anything that can't be executed right now is just preempted
Don't know what the right word is, actually
 
Pushed aside for another thread?
 
The whole warp stops and another executes in its place
 
ah
 
There's no hardware mechanism to "avoid dependencies" in a "smart" way
 
4:39 AM
Well, even a pipelined in-order processor can have data hazards, and the best way to solve them is to map registers to the datapath bypasses.
 
Does this "context switch" only happen for something large like a cache miss? Or will it also happen on long dependency chains?
 
Dependency chains also, yeah
 
That sounds like it would complicate the write-back path.
 
@Mysticial That's the difference between "coarse" and "fine" multithreading. I'd expect most GPUs to implement fine, but you'd need to check to be sure.
@Mysticial It complicates a lot. Adjacent pipeline stages can be executing totally different programs.
 
I don't know what the instruction latencies are on GPUs and whether they are pipelined. But say I have a long dependency chain of multiplies and it switches on each cycle. I could have instructions from several warps in flight. And when they finally finish and commit, it would need to route not just to the right output register, but to the right warp.
 
4:43 AM
@Mysticial Each warp has its own register file. Think of the warp number as the high bits of the register address.
 
ah
 
Pipeline depth is about ~20+ stages, it's not specified by any constructor AFAIK but it should be around that. Yes, you need to route to the right warp.
Warps share a big register file, I think?
 
I guess that logic is still simpler then the OOE and register renaming in CPUs.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva That's what I meant. One physical register file containing several architectural register files.
 
Yes that would make sense
 
4:46 AM
@Mysticial It's a blurry line. As I mentioned, forwarding results from one functional unit to another (without going through the register file) requires similar remapping.
Keeping instructions in order makes it simpler, but still not trivial.
 
@Potatoswatter Definitely. I can't imagine how crazy the logic is in CPUs to handle variable latency instructions with OOE and renaming.
 
Life is suffering.
 
inb4 opengl issue
 
No, I fixed those.
I'm just sick.
 
Variable latency instructions are so bad that Intel started standardizing them. On the Skylake processors, floating-point add, multiply, and FMA are all 4 cycles - even though adds are inherently fastest.
 
4:50 AM
:(
explosive diarrhoea?
 
And it's like someone took a giant floppy cement chicken and hit me on the bridge of the nose with it.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Slowly creeping cold with looming threat of fever.
Fuck me, no tea.
 
@ScottW "Daft Punk Unchained" is a recent documentary made by the BBC. It looks interesting. (You can find it skillfully online.)
 
rip
it's polluted today I don't wanna go out
it will be worse and worse until march though :w
rip health
 
Lol, pollution is a weather.
Might as well do OpenGL stuff until the bridge of my nose collapses and london goes falling down.
 
start smoking to burn off impurities
 
4:54 AM
@Lalaland How would I find when Rust introduced lifetimes? Is it a new feature?
 
lol
 
Rust has lifetimes?
@ThePhD Wait. You live in London?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva doc.rust-lang.org/book/lifetimes.html Pretty awesome ones really.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva It's a really bad pun/reference on "London bridge is falling down"
 
Oh nice, 2/10
 
4:59 AM
-3/10
 
Damn, now I need to incorporate these ideas into my proposal :(
 
@Potatoswatter London bridge is falling down?
 
@Mysticial Rust will refuse to compile a program that takes a reference to a vector, then appends to the vector and tries to use the stale reference.
 
Are you trying to add lifetimes to the C++ type system
That's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of work isn't it
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva As minimally as possible.
 
5:02 AM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva I think it might actually be the halting problem.
 
I rejected the idea of adding lifetime info to object types. It's down to one bit of type-state per function parameter.
 
@Mysticial Nonsense.
 
lol HK is banned from uploading pictures to imgur, wtf
> Banned country attempt
 
@LucDanton I'm only guessing. Based on, "knowing when an object dies is the same as knowing when the code before it halts". But I could be completely wrong.
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Even for stack imgur?
 
5:05 AM
Oh damn...
 
Trivia: Shenzhen went from 30,000 inhabitants in the 80s to about 13 million today.
 
@Mysticial Go at it from a type theory angle.
 
Please tell me it's a foggy day.
And that's not smog.
 
We can statically type programs can’t we? No halting problem violation.
 
And I used to think HK had an impressive growth rate
 
5:06 AM
@LucDanton Yes, but that's sort of begging the question.
 
@ThePhD Mix of both
 
@LucDanton ah
 
Gross.
 
Pollution can get way worse actually
 
@Potatoswatter Hence the follow-up analogy.
 
5:06 AM
How do asthmatics survive China?
Or at least, the heavily polluted parts?
Do they just fucking roll over and die?
 
On a polluted day you wouldn't see past the taller crane
@ThePhD yes
 
Welp. Never gonna see me in China then.
 
Well it's not always polluted and not everywhere
 
You can’t type every program ever though. And you won’t be able to 'lifetime' every program ever either. That’s the space where the halting problem lives in, so to speak.
 
Some parts are really gorgeous
And HK for example has very breathable air most of the year
 
5:08 AM
Ah.
 
From spring to autumn the wind comes from the sea so it's as clean as it gets
in winter it comes from China so you get cancer everytime you inhale
I'll buy a Respro before winter
 
Is this a kind of deep metaphor for HK itself?
 
I need to name a system. It updates the geometry of a widget when it changes to update how it is rendered.
help
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Is that a kind of life insurance?
 
I want SE staff's attention but community managers are avoiding me like a plague.
 
5:10 AM
@Mysticial Oh, those are anti-pollution masks
@Prismatic Is "Robert" taken yet by another component?
 
i am not naming my system robert
 
@Prismatic GeometryManager :3
 
Shapeshifter?
 
I was thinking GeometryUpdateSystem. But I kinda have this class called GeometryUpdateTask already
@chmod711telkitty creative, but TOO creative
 
5:13 AM
I can suggest Alistair otherwise, I do agree it's classier than Robert and still conveys the intent quite clearly
 
What does "System" or "Task" add to the name? Is it a queue? That might be more specific…
 
Its a "System" or "Processor" in the context of an ECS
in that it usually has a set of components it iterates over and processes when you call an 'update' method
 
I should have titled my above picture "You must construct additional pylons!"
 
@Prismatic Does that make it an updater?
 
@Prismatic Looked up… ECS means "Entity Component System." So there you go, GeometryUpdateComponent or GeometryUpdateEntity.
 
5:17 AM
An Entity is an aggregate of Components
A System or a Processor operates on a series of entity components
@LucDanton yes
 
RobertTheUpdater
 
nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooo
 
And this isn't Java?
 
you know how Facebook React has a 'render' method that returns some DOM subset or whatever info you need to render that component
This system calls a similar method on all of my widgets if an 'update' flag has been set
maybe
RebuildGeometryComponent and RebuildGeometrySystem
im so good at naming stuff
 
Rebuild does sound like Robert.
through a muffled wall I mean
 
5:27 AM
good point
does it make it ambiguous?
perhaps it should be Hillary?
 
@LucDanton lol
@Prismatic Just go with Robert, ffs
One of our critical components at work is named Robert and he hasn't failed once.
 
is robert a person
 
He's a SuperMicro server with 24 cores, so yes, I guess you could say he's a person.
 
what did you all name your computers lounge
my laptop is named prometheus because it overheats like that shits on fire all time
 
lol really? my laptop is Koeus and my desktop is Prometheus
 
5:33 AM
my desktop is named soma cus that sounds cool
What's "Koeus" from
 
In Greek mythology, Coeus (Ancient Greek: Κοῖος, Koios, "query, questioning") was one of the Titans, the giant sons and daughters of Uranus (Heaven) and Gaia (Earth). His equivalent in Latin poetry—though he scarcely makes an appearance in Roman mythology—was Polus, the embodiment of the celestial axis around which the heavens revolve. The etymology of Coeus' name provided several scholars the theory that Coeus was also the Titan god of intellect, who represented the inquisitive mind. Like most of the Titans he played no active part in Greek religion—he appears only in lists of Titans—but w...
 
Desktop could be sauna for consistency
 
Note that the etymology of Robert is no short of glorious, btw.
The name Robert is a Germanic given name, from Old High German Hrodebert "bright with glory" (a compound of hruod "fame, glory" and berht "bright"). It is also in use as a surname. After becoming widely used in Continental Europe it entered England in its Old French form Robert, where an Old English cognate form (Hrēodbēorht, Hrodberht, Hrēodbēorð, Hrœdbœrð, Hrœdberð) had existed before the Norman Conquest. The feminine version is Roberta. The Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish form is Roberto. == Variations == == Trivia == Robert, and also the name Joseph, were in the top 10 most given boys' names...
 
5:48 AM
They need
things that can put you to sleep for exactly the duration of your sickness
 
@ThePhD A priori knowing in the exact duration of a sickness would be a breakthrough in and of itself.
 
RebuildGeometrySystem::RebuildGeometryDataComponentList*
in a less cruel universe I wouldn't be allowed near a keyboard
 
Magnus::Thor::Robertson
In a total coincidence, I've finally located my laptop's plinth
Goodbye, backaches!
 
6:29 AM
Morning, Lounge.
 
@ElimGarak night, Lounge
enjoy your day
 
Folks, is here anyone in the room who writes C++ for embedded ?
And I mean the fairly small buggers like MSP430s or ARM Cortex-M0.
 
7:09 AM
No, but I might be able to help.
(Programming questions should be asked on the main site, not in chat.)
 
7:58 AM
fuck most of us don't even write C++
 
8:30 AM
@Borgleader Belated thanks then (wow, I just learnt a new word :o).
And morning everyone.
 
class ICanHasError {
public:
	HZCode GetError();
	void SetError(HZCode);
	void ClearError();

protected:
	HZCode m_errorCode;
};
I'm planning to use this^^^ as a mix-in. Can't think of a better [more formal] name for the class. I'm blanking. Requesting suggestions.
 
delete the class
that public interface is meaningless and even if you just replaced it with the much simpler and totally identical public member HZCode m_errorCode, it would still be implementing a worthless error-code-based design.
just learn to exceptions like everybody else who wants their code to not suck
 
@Puppy If I could use exceptions, I'd use them. I can't do exceptions, unfortunately. They bloat the code a lot, and I can't afford it, because the code is for a small microcontroller.
 
8:46 AM
how much is a lot?
cause it seems to me that "Derive every class whose members could throw from this interface with a non-zero size and write 9999999 copies of the error handling code at every possible call site" is a lot of bloat too.
 
@Puppy Up to 40%. That's what the warning in the docs for the compiler say.
 
up to?
so you don't even know how much it would bloat your code?
 
@Puppy I don't want to find out the hard way at the worst time.
 
at this rate, you're gonna find out the hard way at the worst time that you forgot to check the error code for a particular call and the error goes completely unhandled and everything is broken
at least do something more immediately obvious like a variant<T, error_code> return
 
@Puppy Yes, that crossed my mind too.
 
8:53 AM
Bring expected to the board?
 
@Lalaland Whenever you want. I'm here. Shall we open a repository on the Lounge github thingy?
 
9:13 AM
> for_each(v,[](int x) { /* do something with x */ });
for_each(parallel.v,[](int x) { /* do something with x */ });
> The last variant makes it clear that we are not interested in the order in which the elements of v are handled.
How so?
int bits = 0;                   // don't: avoidable code
for (Int i = 1; i; i<<=1)
    ++bits;
Awesome
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because parallel loops are mostly used when the order of iteration does not matter?
 
Sure, but how is the second a parallel loop?
 
Oh, that was your question.
 
Did they introduce something weird in the standard so that if a range is prefixed with parallel. then it will be evaluated in parallel?
 
std::for_each(std::par, v, [](int x) { /* do something with x */ }); would be the proposed syntax.
std::par begin the execution policy for parallel algorithms.
 
9:21 AM
Meh, why runtime?
I would go with std::for_each<std::execution_policy::parallel>(...)
 
It's a tag, so it looks like runtime but it's likely to be optimized out at compile time.
I guess that they prefer tag types in the regular parameters (as opposed to template parameters). I would venture that it has to do with function template specializations being weird and tag types being in a tag hierarchy (like the iterator tags).
 
What is the _Field_range thing
I can't find any definition
Oh, I found it. VS has a working symbol browser? Not bad!
 
When it works
 
9:39 AM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I think it should be something like std::for_each(std::execution_policy_t, ...)
 
I have so many virtual functions everywhere :[
 
Delete your codebase now.
 
Proposal for a string interpolation syntax baked into the language in the C++ proposals forum.
It looks like someone has been reading the proposals for Python 3.6.
 
and so much friend function pollution too :[
 
@Morwenn Link?
@StackedCrooked Why?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Passing tag objects is much more flexible.
It allows overloading.
Which is C++'s most powerful abstraction mechanism.
I tend to think.
 
Yes. For having rather abused overload resolution recently, I can confirm that it's quite powerful.
 
@StackedCrooked The template and the class are better; but OR is pretty fucking critical.
 
It's the combination really.
 
Yep.
 
9:46 AM
@Morwenn I don't like the prefixed symbol used for interpolating
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Me neither. I don't like capital literals anyway.
 
Like F"% Something %here" and F"& Something &here"
No, I meant the one in the string
Well, the capital F ain't pretty either, but I don't mind it too much
 
Well, that also, and the proposed semantics are not pretty either.
 
I see where it's coming from though
 
If you have a function that accepts a function pointer of pointer to member function then you can introspect the passed function's signature using overloads and use that to generate binding to a dynamic language.
 
9:49 AM
Whatever symbol you would pick would have some application where it's used as a valid character many times
 
I believe boost.python works like this.
Not a great example for overloading though.
I suppose templates are the real hero.
And operator overloading. And destructors.
Everything but virtual methods :P
 
and pointers
fuck pointers
 
Memory access is a major reason why compiler can't optimize anything.
C ruined the field of optimizing compilers.
 
But restrict :o
 

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