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user406009
00:01
I have additional color options as well if that one doesn't suit your needs: i.imgur.com/assGfz9.png
technicolor Alex
user406009
For some reason, it's much harder to make it green.
there is barely any resemblance between our avatars
user406009
@AlexM. The problem is the icons are really small.
maybe at full resolution, but in the smallest size you're both humans with orange hair
00:02
I know it is premature, but I am really looking forward to DirectX 13
And they look similar when they are 32x32
forgive my ignorance, I am researching on Google how to build a 2d game with C++. I have discovered SDL and SFML. can anyone comment these?
user406009
@JonathanMusso SFML is your best bet.
user406009
@AlexM. Limited screen real estate.
@JonathanMusso use SFML and notice how over time the S falls off
user406009
@ElimGarak Why? Do they have a list of features or something?
@JonathanMusso If you're just learning C++ as you mentioned earlier, you should maybe go through a book first.
user406009
^
00:04
@ElimGarak I thought they said DX12 was "the last"?
or did i dream that
user406009
4269
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are published every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a well-written...

Yeah he linked that earlier I believe
I am going to start with Thinking in C++
@Borgleader It is what we used to refer to the next serious iteration (non point increments like .1)
thanks guys
@AlexM. what do you not like about it? :D
00:05
I just wanted to make the joke
I never used it lol
@Lalaland During the development of DX12, I proposed creating a new shading language to the team, based on the C++11 spec which allows for templates. Folks from RedLynx (J Knuuttila et al), DICE and a few others backed the idea, DX folks said they are definitely considering it for the next version of the API.
Basically, if they manage to do it, HLSL will be history.
user406009
So you can generalize functions over different types of data (different size vectors, etc)?
Anything you can imagine, also it would allow for actually creating a non-clusterfuck shader codebase. Usually we have to create an automation system which will actually do the atrocity for us, but the bloat is still there.
00:06
@ElimGarak Or they could do like Vulkan :)
user406009
That actually sounds quite useful. Wouldn't it be a large cost to the driver writers though? Who does the compilation in DX 12? The driver (like OpenGL) or some other tooling?
Compilation is done offline, into a specialized IR form which is further processed by the supporting IHVs into their hardware compliant codez. Does OpenGL still require "online compilation"?
user406009
I believe so.
@ElimGarak afaik yes
@JonathanMusso I've never used it either but I've heard SFML is a bit easier to get into. That being said, SDL has this pretty awesome set of tutorials: lazyfoo.net/SDL_tutorials
00:08
if not somebody tell me :)
That's what always put me off from OpenGL. :(
What do you mean by 'online compilation'
@Prismatic ideone, coliru
That you cannot compile it into bytecode offline and just load a blob during the game/app's execution.
user406009
@JonathanMusso I've use SFML a reasonable amount. It's much easier to use than SDL.
00:10
You can ship precompiled shaders but it has to be vendor specific or something
There's no universal bytecode
@Prismatic And thats the problem.
which SPIR-V or whatever is supposed to fix I guess
user406009
Whenever Vulkan actually ships.
00:10
Well, in case of DX, it's specialized IR which is further processed by the usermode driver (supplied by the IHV)
@Lalaland At the end of this year supposedly
user406009
At the very least, everyone writing their Vulkan libs will probably be able to use modules by then.
4
I call dibs on a Vulkan lib called mind-meld.
What's nice about DX's IR, even though it is not final form, it can optimize the HLSL code and reduce the fat and basically accelerate the entire process of not annoying the user in the meantime. There's always some overhead, but tolerable.
@ElimGarak Is there feature parity on all DX12 devices? Could I ship the same precompiled shaders for mobile devices or Windows 10 desktop?
user406009
00:13
@Borgleader This is your chance! Register the domain now!
@Prismatic Different shader models are supported on different devices, but if all support it, there is no issue with it.
But mobile devices are still not a thing (with DX12). That's a WIP.
How do you have differing shader model support with the same version of DirectX?
Thank you both @Prismatic and @Lalaland. My experience at the moment is with Ruby and the Rails framework. I am trying to branch out and learn more about programming in general. I would like to build some command line tools as my first project(s) with C++ and then try to build a very basic sprite based game. I will start with Thinking in C++ and then move my way into the graphic library.
Right, assume we're a few months in the future when DX12 is available on Win10 phones
Like, DX12 on desktop will have GS and TS for sure, but I guess mobile might not?
That is a possibility, but that's not what Microsoft is aiming at. A DirectX 12 GPU is feature level 11_0 or above compliant.
And at those feature levels, you've got GS/HS/DS. The question of support is basically advanced features like dynamic indexing of shader model 5.1 (which work in tandem with the notion of "infinite" descriptor ranges). Basically, resource binding on steroids. There is a possibility mobile GPU vendors might fail, so Microsoft will be forced to adapt.
But in the last months of development, FL 11_0 became the minimum for DX12. Right now, topping out on 12_1 (ROVs, conservative rasterization and the works).
user406009
00:21
Anyways, I guess I'll keep checking reddit.com/r/vulkan and hoping they actually release.
@Lalaland Ctrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+RCtrl+R
A lot of the AMD GCN hardware is actually only FL 11_0-ish. Same goes for Haswell GPUs, but with some feature exceptions (supporting stuff not required by the feature level, but missing parts to be pushed up). Maxwell hardware was the first to hit 12_0 (and 2.0 to 12_1).
And then came the Fury line, matched Maxwell.
@ElimGarak I cant wait to see what Pascal can do :)
Me too, scared of buying Fury Xs because of it. I just have no idea how long is it going to take. They must respond to AMD, especially given their latest shenanigans with misleading.
Basically, there is no simple solution. There's a lot of hardware and you need to code defensively, when creating the device, knocking your requirements down and logging it, taking different rendering paths accordingly (no ROVs, no hardware supported OIT, fallback etc.) But only within reason, at some point you need to say "Okay, the line must be drawn here, this far, no further."
Okay. streams up. I'm going horizontal
00:26
Night sehe <3
@thecoshman I can remind you of this periodically
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
@Lalaland still can't read that acronym without thinking "So Fuck My Life"
So, I need to drive out at 4 am to pick up my brother and his girlfriend from a wedding. "So Fuck My Life"
user406009
4 am is not too bad.
user406009
That's only like 2 hours early.
They're eating, partying and shit... And I'm here sketching up ideas for light propagation acceleration structures. People I know, y u no get married.
user406009
00:30
@ElimGarak You can do at least 2 of those things right now if you really wanted to.
user406009
The eating and shitting at least.
user406009
They sorta go together.
Unless constipation.
Tide goes in, tide doesn't go out.
Wait
Is that for real.
user406009
Nah, that's probably a joke.
00:32
If it is, I can already see douches driving there for reduced traffic. Also, overload imminent.
user406009
@sehe You see, I have this billion dollar idea. What if we plugged extension cords into themselves?
user406009
user406009
Free infinite power man ...
Also, @sehe, it is only a feasability study.
user406009
@sehe In all seriousness, the efficiency of wireless power is shit.
00:34
@Lalaland yeah. Somehow I reckon the lost energy would be prohibitive. Then again, I have inductive chargers "always on" myself. No idea about the efficiency when not loaded
@ElimGarak Even so
The image is poorly done Photoshop with a badly transformed car icon.
I'd have guessed that a feasibility study was out of the question. I'm surprised
I'd have to find out. But not now
The tech/physics behind it is simple, but the scale is what makes it difficult.
Aw. Dem feels
Speaking of cool stuff, liquid batteries using varying densities for separation.
@sehe Man, that's so sad.
@Nooble, you died?
user406009
00:38
@ElimGarak He went to soccer hell.
I was really looking forward to the cube.
A while back on the train I cooked up a GS that generated the 3 camera facing faces of a cube, then i sent n points and voila, insta voxels :)
looked cool
user406009
@ElimGarak Also, you aren't participating in the game jam :(
Wait, the source is on GitHub. I'll fix it for him.
@Borgleader Ah, yes, that's a general scheme for voxelization. Although, there are methods to increase quality and efficiency, but are not trivial. :D
user406009
@ElimGarak I guess you are referring to hiding inner surfaces?
00:41
@Lalaland Among others, but there is also CPU assisted conservative rasterization with DirectX 12
And some non-trivial stuffs which I can write on my blog once if you guys are interested. Always wanted to have a blog to explain the difficult shit with samples, but never had an audience.
@Lalaland Are you making an entry?
user406009
I'll do some 2d thing.
I'll join on the next one. Have some terribly deadlined work right now.
user406009
Probably in JabaScript because the canvas API is actually quite good.
I'd like a 48 hour game jam. That would be fun. (need an excuse to consume Red Bull / Burn )
00:46
@Lalaland similar plan here
distribution will be super easy too
user406009
What more could you ask for 2d stuff?
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
@Borgleader I likes it.
@Lalaland well, easeljs is pretty nice :)
00:52
it's like 20MB uncompressed which is surprisingly large
user406009
For what? easeljs?
Icicle, it's about 30 MB. Dependencies and shit.
^
the opengl rendering engine that nooble is working on
user406009
I can't find it. Is it private?
Also, remind me to have a talk with Nooble on the descriptive usage of folders beyond the venerable "include (header)" vs "source" directories.
user406009
00:55
I don't see anywhere enough glGetError calls.
user406009
Those suckers should be scattered everywhere.
user406009
After every single OpenGL call.
Yeah, validation is the first victim of nooblets. :D
user406009
@Nooble NEED MOAR GL GET ERROR
I suppose I'll need to get MinGW
00:57
@Lalaland No, you setup a callback
gl::DebugMessageCallback(opengl_callback_function, nullptr);
user406009
What do you know, a useful recent extension that my shitty graphics driver actually supports.
user406009
Learn something new every day.
Lawl, OGL peasants... Acquire a debug object, spew messages into output. Tag objects with names for extra debug love.
user406009
Well at least old drivers can support recent extensions.
user406009
Cause this 3.3 driver is probably never going to be OpenGL 4, where that feature was made core.
user406009
01:06
Unlike in DirectX, where it's all or nothing.
So, I basically clicked through too far
And now I am installing support for both Ada and Fortran. so fuck my life.
user406009
At least it's not PHP.
Damn it, Nooble, your makefiles are useless.
user406009
Newer JabaScript is actually relatively fine. I still find it hilarious how they had to throw out most of their old keywords and completely replace them with new ones due to how broken they were.
while (true)
{
    my_renderer.render({{2, 2, 2}, {0, 0, 0}, 16.0f / 9.0f, 65});
}
Inba nooble.
01:18
what is timing
baby don't clock me
how do you do your backups?
user406009
@milleniumbug I don't.
user406009
I just start running with my data once I start hearing magic noises.
user406009
(And the fact that most of my data is worthless)
Huh, if I don't run icicle as an administrator, it doesn't see the dlls. Ahahah, clumsy Nooble.
01:30
that's what I do currently, the reason I'm asking is that I'll soon start managing data that's relevant to more people than me (that is, to my family)
user406009
DropBox is quite good.
user406009
So is emailing stuff to yourself.
user406009
It really depends, how much data do you have to backup?
200 GB tops
Most likely about 50 GB
user406009
Google also has decent rates for data storage.
01:34
I'm not keen on "cloud", but it's the only way I can get off-site backup without hassle
I guess I could encrypt everything before sending it to them
user406009
7zip is decent for encryption of stuff like this.
user406009
Unless you are committing nation state level crimes with your stashed documents. In which case, you are probably screwed anyways.
It has AES-256, good
vast difference over easily breakable .zip encryption
@Lalaland they will never catch me!
Alrighty, build setup.
Now to fix it.
01:46
How do I petition a Jam Time Increase?
user406009
@ThePhD Bad timezone?
user406009
5 hours should be fine.
user406009
Think simple.
user406009
Nvm, I see now. You want to finish your engine first.
user406009
3d graphics are way overkill for a 5 hour thing.
01:54
@ElimGarak Hi.
Fixed it. Also, 'twas interleaved. Oh, you.
I'll setup a pull request.
MOVE ZIG
@Lalaland I'm not doing 3D graphics. And no, I'm not going to finish my engine in time.
I'm going to be moving into UNi.
@ElimGarak But how? I push vertices, then normals, then texcoords.
user406009
Oh.
01:55
@Nooble That's how the obj is formed.
@ElimGarak Huh.
AFAIK it should be v1 v2 v3 vn1 vn2 vn3 vt1 vt2 vt3.
Set the stride to 32 on all three and recompile. Also, your bottom is missing.
His results prove you wrong. :D
@ElimGarak :D
It is 4 am here, and I must get my bro and his gf from a wedding soon. I want to die. :( No driving :( Please :(
01:58
@ElimGarak I know why.
fuck this
This, fuck.
everybody talks how backups are important while nobody actually talks how to do them
We continuously push shit to the server.
@Elim Can you explain how I made it interleaved?
01:59
@Nooble When it got exported to obj, that's how the data went out. You followed the obj spec (or the tiny obj loader or whatever followed the spec)
and it came out like that. Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can explain that. That's why I suggest writing plugins for DCT apps like Blender, 3ds max etc. To really control what happens and understand it proper. It's not voodoo. :P
user406009
@Nooble The issue is that you passed in a zero for stride. By default, when given 0,, OpenGL assumes the data is tightly packed. IE, an entire vector full of only positions or whatever.
user406009
However, your data vector has other stuff in it, so you have to set the stride manually to sizeof(your_data)
@Lalaland Yes I know the issue.
I think he gets that, just is confused how it got interleaved without his knowledge. He saw the output from Blender and thought that's the way obj was going to encode it and his library decode it.
Interleaved means v vn vt right?
user406009
02:02
The library he is using does not output interleaved data? What are you referring to?
yas.
v vn vt v vn vt v vn vt
Between v's in your case it is always 32 bytes. And other stuffs. The size of your vertex data structure sizeof(position3 + normal3 + tex2) is the vertex buffer stride.
Yeah I think I did this accidentally.
Hmm...
Alright, this is fun, just let me know when you break it in the future and I'll keep fixing it
maybe I'll drop goodies and shit as well. And my hobbies have officially hit rock bottom
user406009
whisper: you should join us for the game jam
Yes it seems I fill vertex_data by pushing 3 positions, then 3 normals, and then 2 texcoords.
I was, in fact, interleaving.
02:08
Don't get discouraged, fuckups are expected early on.
Kinky.
@Lalaland We'll lose!
@ElimGarak Yeah :D
user406009
There's like more trophies than people.
4
Ahahaha
user406009
@Nooble Also, we can team up and beat Elim.
02:09
All of today has been spent compiling, executing, and then seeing a black screen.
user406009
You would just have to concede to 2d graphics.
Yes, that's the life of a graphics programmer. Embrace it.
And then a clusterfuck of triangles.
And then one day it'll all work and it'll be awesome.
@Lalaland But 3D is fun!
You can make a 2.5D game.
Since 3D physics engines don't exist.
02:11
You can do fun 2D games with 3D with a forced perspective. Free clouds moving in the distance and stuff, courtesy of the perspective transform.
Well good 3D I physics engines.
Bullet3 is broken.
@ElimGarak :D
I've yet to use the model matrix.
Model, that's the OGL naming convention for local space?
Borgleader!
You're still awake.
When's the next game jam planned? Can it be 48 hours?
02:14
its 10:15PM so yeah
4:15am here. Still on call. Damn bro is still not calling in.
@ElimGarak I wanted a longer jam, too.
Well, basically, as it is now, those 5 hours aren't exactly a game jam, they're more like a submission deadline for a project that can last for weeks. 48 hour game jams are usually energy drink infested shit-in-a-bucket fests.
@Borgleader Hey! Time zone buddies!
What kind of GPUs do you folks have?
02:18
@πάνταῥεῖ = Child2() implies a temporary. Taking the reference to that is reckless and stores a dangling reference in c_. Oops UB. — sehe 53 secs ago
Whoops. Panta ray
Ugh.
I really need to move my OpenGL functions into its own .cpp
rather than in the header
recompiling all the .cpp files that include the OpenGL platform stuff is bonkers.
user406009
@ElimGarak Integrated graphics.
user406009
):
which model? HD4400? HD3000? AMD stuff perhaps?
user406009
HD 4000 I believe.
02:23
@ElimGarak HD7970 and a GTX 970.
Good. Nooble can run my DX12 toys. Lalaland is missing about 400 until Haswell to run the toys.
:)
HD4600 has 4.3, no?
user406009
Well, I don't have any windows licenses for this computer, so I won't be running DX Anything.
@ElimGarak GTX 670
I want 4.3 because layout.
02:25
@Nooble 4.0
I don't know what my GPU is, but it can handle OpenGL... 4.4?
@Borgleader Excellent, Kepler architecture. Supports DX12 reasonably well.
@ElimGarak Oh.
@sehe navta pei!
NVidia GeForce GTX 670M
4.3 brought compute shaders, but it also includes various additional stuffs which trip over hardware which support the former and not the latter.
02:26
@Borgleader Gasp, we're buddies! <3
@ThePhD Is that why there's no FURROVINE_45?
You're the sidekick (670 M) :P
@ElimGarak Shhh
@Nooble I don't need any of 4.5's shit right now.
4.5 is pretty much shit in general, it doesn't do anything new particularly well. Transitional to Vulkan.
I also have a builtin Intel HD Graphics 4000
02:28
OpenGL 3.1 because Sandy Bridge.
Or whatever the HD3000s were.
Yeah, Sandy Bridge. 2600K was among them.
user406009
See, this is the advantage of 2d graphics.
user406009
Everyone supports them.
<3 3960X
user406009
No compatibility worries.
02:29
1d graphics have even more support. :P
--------------------------- --- ---------- --- -- ----- -----------
The CPU I wanted and never got.
That and a 6990.
I actually got that exact combination in November of 2011. i7 2600K and HD6990. 'twas the shit back in the day.
Man the 6990 was cool.
I have some shitty integrated graphics as well.
And hella overpowered. And Nvidia had just failed with their silent 590. Clear skies for a while.
02:31
Was it 1.5GBx2?
user406009
NVIDIA 8800 GTX, never forget.
user406009
That card shall always have a place in my heart.
@Nooble 2GB on both sides. But it was effectively 2 GB total due to copying data for every GPU to AFR properly.
> LevelGl045
AMD's spec liked to brag by adding up the separate bandwidths. Doesn't work like that, AMD.
02:32
Looks like my Graphics Card supports OpenGL 4.5
There's no OpenGL 4.6, right?
Nope, OpenGL 4.5 was the last before the glNext announcement... Which turned into Vulkan.
No more OpenGL?
OpenGL will remain, as will DX11. But it will be used mostly by folks who are not very good at graphics (for the moment) or don't care too much about the advanced performance stuffs.
user406009
I think I am going to give up on finding a decent Java server library. They all have absolutely horrible, over-engineered APIs.
user406009
Does anyone know of any decent ones?
user406009
02:34
I need HTTP and websocket support.
@ElimGarak I CARE
WHERE DO I SIGN UP.
I think these are all the feature levels
@ThePhD And 12_1 (conservative rasterization + ROVs)
Already 12.1? Geez.
Yeah, Maxwell 2.0 supports it (GTX970/980) and the Fury line.
02:36
So things I'll never get my hands on in the next year or so until the price goes down. Got it.
@Borgleader :P
@Nooble Invite only for now. Or, by association which would be more apt.
@ElimGarak :(
OpenGL 5!
Choo choo!
OpenGL for the streets. O.G. DickPix.
02:40
@Lalaland Bwahahaha Java.
user406009
I wanted to use Scala or Clojure.
Scala <3
user406009
But people were like "Noo!, those are too weird"
Scale-uh is great.
user406009
I am actually starting to like Clojure more.
user406009
02:41
Simplicity is always nice.
Just use C++, such simplicity.
user406009
@Nooble clojure.org/cheatsheet is pretty much the entire language.
@Lalaland But Lisp.
user406009
Lisp is fine. The dynamic typing can be a bit of a problem for larger teams and longer projects though.
I only really have experience with one language.
02:50
@Nooble , will Icicle be ready for today's jam? :D
@ElimGarak Tomorrow for me.
And yes!
Need to clean up the code a bit though, I kinda exploded it trying to figure out why the cube was looking like that.
Like, it needs a whole lot of clean up.
The deps need to be updated.
And I'll half-ass textures and some sort of shading and lighting.
Icicle > Frostbite

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