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7:01 PM
@Nooble this works very well (see: here)
 
@ScottW Why would I? :3
 
@nabijaczleweli Agh let me charge my phone and see. Woops, forgot my charger...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yo, where's your list of things you hate C++ developers for?
(or something along those lines)
 
@nabijaczleweli I'll test it at home and pull if it works.
 
@thecoshman What a guilt trip.
 
7:04 PM
 
@nabijaczleweli It's always worked on FF. FF is magical.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel Dear library developer.
 
Try Chrome.
 
I don't have Chrome
 
Download it.
 
7:05 PM
Chrome is utter shit
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Watched this week's Overlord yet?
 
Downloading and hoping it doesn't need GApps
 
@ScottW I've got an headache
 
@nabijaczleweli Not for WebGL.
I think Chrome's WebGL support is still better.
 
7:07 PM
bby
 
evening
 
What are "bogus values"?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ char value = 9283742452; ?
no idea
 
@EtiennedeMartel The VCL breaks an unfortunate number of those rules... although not all of them.
 
The what?
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Objects with an invalid value to indicate errors.
 
7:10 PM
> Not everybody library has the benefit of using exceptions, especially performance critical code. Blanket statement such as that are usually not well-received.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ values that don't convey any information or are invalid state
 
I never got this.
Are exception really that terrible at performance?
 
user1804599
E.g. if you have enum foo { bar, baz }; foo x = (foo)2;, and you expect all values of foo to be either bar or baz, then x has a bogus value.
 
In some handlers, yes
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No.
 
7:10 PM
The Visual Component Library (VCL) is a visual component-based object-oriented framework for developing the user interface of Microsoft Windows applications. It is written in Object Pascal. == History == The VCL was developed by Borland for use in, and is tightly integrated with, its Delphi and C++Builder RAD tools. In 1995 Borland released Delphi, its first release of an Object Pascal IDE and language. Up until that point, Borland's Turbo Pascal for DOS and Windows was largely a procedural language, with minimal object-oriented features, and building UI frameworks with the language required using...
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ A throw is more expensive than a return, but peole tend to forget that exceptions are exceptional and therefore should never be in a hot path.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ In C# they are, serializing the stack is expensive
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's bullshit. Exceptions are for whenever return codes aren't good enough, which is to say basically all the time.
 
@Puppy Oh, I thought we were talking about performance consideration.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Hmm, well. Yeah, but is a catch more costly than an if statement?
 
7:11 PM
But if you want to change the subject without telling anybody, sure.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Have you ever run a profiler like Sleepy on code that uses exceptions?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, but you made an assertion about how frequently they should be used.
which I'm saying is completely untrue.
 
I never had to use profilers (except in Haskell)
 
@Puppy No, I made it about how often a throw happens.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Depends on the platform. The issue is you always hit the if even if everything is alright, but you only pay for catch when something is actually thrown.
 
7:13 PM
eh
still not buying that
 
@EtiennedeMartel Exactly
 
Also, exceptions are essentially free on x64.
 
So it looks like return + if sounds worse than a throw never sent.
 
the raw speed doesn't really matter that much.
the issue is all of the time that you forget to check the code and your app crashes, and other developer and customer time losses.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ <3
 
7:14 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's like you only want to have the last word even if it's the same as the one before it.
 
@Puppy I see
 
Uggggh every update creates a new scheduled task with WakeToRun enabled
 
I mean
 
What the fuck Windows
Who thought it'd be a good idea to ever set that on anything
 
if you spend 10% as much time on exceptions as return codes, that's way more time you can spend optimizing things that are more important.
so the literal speed of the language constructs is only meaningful when you're also comparing how much speed you could gain in other areas with the developer time saved.
 
7:15 PM
@Xeo yep, it was good :D
 
In any case you should be using assertions (ideally static) and tests before exceptions.
 
@Puppy well no, most functions don't need to throw, but a lot that don't should.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Every error is "exceptional"
 
> If your library throws I won't use it.
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Loved it.
 
7:16 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yeah but in the case of exceptions that's literally their name.
 
Asserts are only for internal invariants
 
Xeo
Finally got to see that damn hamster from the opening :D
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ but what if...
 
@EtiennedeMartel It's a terrible name that doesn't mean anything
 
... it throws itself in your project?
 
7:16 PM
@thecoshman Well, yes. It's basically never justified to use return codes. Exceptions are the main error handling mechanism that doesn't by default break everything.
 
If the user enters an invalid input, would you throw an exception?
 
They should be called "interrupts"
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes
 
in fact, I can't really name any other general error handling scheme.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes no maybe
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes.
 
7:16 PM
@Puppy oh yeah, return codes are a terrible thing
 
@Puppy Everyone knows return false is good enough.
 
user1804599
Return Either (Set ValidationError) Stuff.
 
It's not like you really need to know why something broke.
 
> If your library is a header-only heavily-templated one that does nothing but "augmenting code expressiveness", you're a gigantic fag
cit.
 
inb4 std::expected<> vs. exceptions
 
7:17 PM
Maybe at this point you can have an error monad like Bartek used to profess.
You get the best of both words
 
it might be a bit rude though
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ a.k.a. expected, really
 
@MarcoA. wot
 
I recall somebody writing it somewhere
 
Error codes are something you use inside an exception
 
7:18 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I've used something not dissimilar to that in Swift, and it's shit.
 
go doesnt have exceptions
 
although to be fair
 
@MarcoA. Then I'm a gigantic fag.
4
 
go is an exception
 
Swift in general is shit so I would not be surprised if they had done it a lot worse than necessary
 
7:18 PM
@Puppy Why?
@Griwes What's that? Can't find it on cppreference
 
Yes, Go likes manual error propagation a lot
That doesn't mean it's a good idea
 
but I think the original question was, are exceptions ~slow~, and AFAIK exceptions are always at least as much as just returning. But the cost at run time is rather trivial, and the gains during development are uncountable
 
Plus panic() is an interrupt
 
argh here come the stars
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because it basically boiled down to the exact same thing as return codes, except sometimes you get a compiler error if you forget to check it
 
@thecoshman They're certainly not at least as much as returning. Exceptions can be literally zero cost for say, a try/catch.
 
Not sure if that's the latest version.
> 2014
probably not
 
@Griwes Thanks
 
@nabijaczleweli Ok then.
 
7:20 PM
@Puppy I mean the actual throwing. If the exception is never thrown, there is no cost with them. And it's actually less work than having to check the return codes
 
@nabijaczleweli extremely easy to write and remember
 
I still would like to get home first.
 
@thecoshman Throwing isn't free for sure- it's pretty meaty. But compared to other costs it's really not that much - and that's just in the performance bracket.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It was heavily discussed on the C++ future proposals forum since some people thought that the Filesystem TS should use something like that instead of exceptions to report errors.
 
I made a helpful infographic on when to use exceptions
user image
10
 
7:22 PM
@ScottW _LOL_LOL_H
 
@Morwenn And what's the status now?
 
@CatPlusPlus have a star for m4d p4int sk1llz
 
(2 years ago)
(You're still bad at this)
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Some people are for and other people against. Since some are against including yet another error mechanism, it's kind of blocked.
You can still find implementations online though.
 
@MarcoA. What is simple to write and remember?
Wrong reply?
 
7:25 PM
@Morwenn I think I'm against too in that matter.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Incredible accuracy. Are you using a drawing tablet?
 
Yes (again)
 
It's a quick way to PHP error handling
 
god damn cat, I tried to tell her that she didn't like stake, but nooo she had to waste some for her self!
 
7:26 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The funniest thing is that the default error stored is std::exception_ptr and the thing throws if you try to access the "normal" value when an error is stored.
 
@ScottW potentially, yes
 
You throw every time you want to interrupt execution and propagate up the stack
It's that simple (tm)
 
well with user input, you could 'get input, if valid continue else loop'
 
@Mysticial topkek
 
Hence why "exceptions" is a terrible name and ever thinking about "exceptional" things or errors even is a waste of time and an irrelevant red herring
 
user1804599
7:30 PM
I like to use exceptions for things you unlikely want to handle immediately, such as I/O errors, and sum types for things you typically want to handle immediately, such bad user input.
 
user1804599
for some definition of user input
 
@nabijaczleweli Which browser do you use on your desktop?
 
@Nooble Pull this
FF, of course
 
I've been using FF developer edition for a while now. Looks nice :3
 
@ScottW yeah, or even 'get input, if valid do calculation else display error'
 
7:32 PM
It's the only reasonable browser
 
@nabijaczleweli Nah.
 
Oooh, devedition
 
There's wget.
 
throwing an exception for that doesn't really make sense, from a pure semantics pov
 
@nabijaczleweli It's amazing get it now pls.
 
7:32 PM
curl is inherently better
 
I wish C++ didn't have exceptions
that way I wouldn't have to decide whether or not I should use them
 
are you fucking kidding me?
C++ without exceptions is unusable.
 
@thecoshman Again only thing that matters is how control flow looks like
 
@thecoshman It pretty much does.
 
The only exception I've ever had from c++ is 'bad_alloc' in like ... how many years of using it (I'm a scrub though, so who knows)
 
7:36 PM
@Prismatic Use them. There, done.
 
Also I think I got a future related exception once
 
C++ is completely unusable without exceptions.
just like every other language.
I'm looking at you, Swift, you stupid piece of shit.
 
Hehehe.
 
Swift has exceptions, I briefly read up on them the other day
 
not yet.
it will have exceptions after Apple finish admitting that not having exceptions is totally fucked and finish implementing exceptions and then releasing Swift 2.
 
7:38 PM
you're right I was reading some prerelease thing
 
and the funny thing is
their exceptions implementation is still totally fucked.
 
Woah I never realized SO doesn't use HTTPS.
 
It does, but they don't enforce it for whatever reason
 
having to declare which types your function may throw seems like such a pita. I thought C++ demo'd that exception specifications are bad
 
@CatPlusPlus That's weird.
 
7:39 PM
Java did it a lot worse.
Swift does it even worse than that.
 
Yes C++ proven that C++ designers can't design anything well
 
@Puppy that wasn't a standalone statement
 
@Puppy Go has exceptions?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Not as far as I know.
 
It has panic()
It's an interrupt but it doesn't carry any data
Or maybe it does
No catch sugar though, you only get unconditional recover
 
7:44 PM
I don't know why but I can't stand Andrei Alexandrescu talks
I don't like his accent
 
he's so funny though
 
@Puppy, btw, what do u think about basic_ios::exceptions(). I hate this API
 
I can't stand talks.
 
And I don't think there are stack-preserving rethrows
 
he's the funniest god of c++
 
7:44 PM
I'm sure he is a nice guy and everything. He sounds very smart and all.
I just can't get over his accent
 
there's a recent talk by bjarne up
 
@Morwenn I can't talk stands.
 
@ScottW Or shooting people.
 
YO
youtube now has auto generated subtitles
what the fuck
 
7:46 PM
@Prismatic BUT INHERITANCE IS SO FUNDAMENTAL TO OOP??????
 
inheritance is a tool and nothing more.
 
When did this happen? When did youtube start autogenerating subtitles? this is amazing
@CatPlusPlus nah, composition is oop too
 
About 2 years ago
@Prismatic Messaging is OOP
 
as I know - a long time ago
 
operator.
 
7:47 PM
@Prismatic The generated subtitles suck, most of the time.
 
man Im so not with it anymore :[
 
@ScottW :c
 
@nabijaczleweli the address of your website, it's a bit hard to type :/
 
@ScottW Lol.
 
Why are you typing addresses
 
7:48 PM
who is the best cpp speaker
 
Your mom
2
 
Woah, gonna ragequit.
 
@Prismatic 50 Cent
 
@MarcoA. What's the address?
Oh
 
cout << "yo";
 
7:49 PM
nabijaczleweli is easy to type.
 
yes
 
@MarcoA. Nabijaczleweli is the word I type the fastest on any input device (well, that and my passwords)
 
nablaczechlewis
damnit
 
nabij + aczle + weli
 
must be hard like my name for Indian people
hi Macro
f***
 
7:50 PM
@MarcoA. Hahaha.
 
I wish I could be promoted to template
 
@Nooble Nabijacz + Leweli
 
bjarnes voice is so relaxing
 
@nabijaczleweli Nabijaczleweli +
 
7:52 PM
id listen to bjarne asmr
 
@Prismatic Yes
 
user1804599
Bjarne is awesome.
 
user1804599
He's my hero.
 
I like how calm he is
And very balanced too
 
user1804599
I wish JS allows multiple prototypes.
 
8:07 PM
I sometimes wonder how Bjarne remains so calm with all the committee stuff. It requires some nerve to follow that work for years and years.
 
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I just realized
Boost.Optional is Maybe
 
@Morwenn Did you just wish the clap on me?
@ScottW I'm at wurk
Doing wurk
For wurk
@ScottW aka no progress
 
@ScottW bad, ofc
 
In other news, I have just been exposed to Doxygen.
Or rather Roxygen
Roxygen OP
 
More like Smallpoxygen.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no
@Morwenn y
 
@VermillionAzure Don't mind me. It's just that I prefer my documentation to be kind of free-form (but consistent and complete) rather than having it totally generated from the code.
 
I heard Sphinx is better but it overwhelmed me
 
@Morwenn To be honest, I don't think there is a really great way to to do documentation
I think the best method would make use of axioms and semantics in code form
 
8:21 PM
That's it: I basically I prefer Sphinx documentations.
But its C++ support is still a bit incomplete.
 
I think R's documentation is very OP.
It's very good. They do it right with their ecosystem and such. It's so pretty.
 
8:34 PM
@Morwenn Documentation generators don't generate documentation; they generate intellisense but worse.
 
@Puppy Yes, kind of.
@VermillionAzure It lacks syntax highlighting though.
 
I get the feeling my PC would rather I turned that case fan back on
tis a tad warm at the exhaust without it
 
@thecoshman the flames adding a warm glow to the room might be a give away? :p
 
@Ell I really need to get some ACK about you staying tomorrow
 
@JonClements ADMIN ALERT!
What's another word for, "put this data output into this data input when i say so?" as a function name?
 
8:36 PM
nah, that will be the vacuum after it attempts to control the cat fuffs
@R.MartinhoFernandes EOF
 
gonna sleep
goodnight everyone
don't segfault too much
 
@VermillionAzure pipe maybe
 
user1804599
OMG HE SAID MONAD
 
@nabijaczleweli Can't be too computer-y... More words?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes did you ever blog your parcel collection saga?
 
8:39 PM
wtf do you mean, can't be too computery?
it's a computational thing, by definition.
 
@Puppy pipe is usually associated with shells and such
Maybe that's the right word
 
@Jon not yet. There's one last package to pick up tomorrow.
 
here's the story: I have delegate/objects called modules, each which represents a step in a workflow
 
@VermillionAzure Usually by complete idiots.
pipe is just a notion; shells happen to use it, so do many other things.
 
link pipe transfer feed bind
 
8:41 PM
@Lala this is what it looks like when you pull someone's key.
 
user1804599
lol, Bjarne sucks at C++
 
user1804599
> auto plus = [] (Number x) { return [] (Number y) { return x + y; }; };
 
@elyse ??!!!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Seriously!? I so can't wait to find out what hilarity all this has been for :)
 
user1804599
8:42 PM
needs to capture x
 
@JonClements pssst
What's a word to describe feeding the output from one module into another?
 
Things escalate quickly and now I want to eat curry. Thanks.
 
a function call?
 
Um... pipe? Redirect?
 
feedAndRun(module1, module2)
 
8:46 PM
you fail so tremendously it's difficult to explain
 
@Puppy so rude.
 
so true
 
Let's try the super long literal form
putInputFromFirstModuleIntoSecondModuleThenRunSecondModule(m1,m2)
 
a.k.a. m1(m2())
 
then we whittle down...
 
8:47 PM
What's "put input"
 
@Puppy No I don't want it to be a composition in syntax
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure Clojure calls it ->.
 
Concepts can be nested under namespaces, right?
 
Also, it's a delegate function/object/struct thing, so its output is displayed as slots
 
user1804599
F# and Elixir call it |>.
 
user1804599
8:48 PM
Some libraries call it pipeline.
 
@elyse I need a readable word
 
user1804599
pipeline
 
@elyse that could work!
pipeline(module1, module2)
 
@VermillionAzure That is exactly what you just described.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I think so. IIRC there is an example in the Concepts TS document.
 
user1804599
8:48 PM
@VermillionAzure make it variadic
 
@elyse I'll keep it binary, thanks
Hm...
See, I have to refactor my workflow design
They want it to be step-by-step and also automated in different modes
 
heh, the people that hacked ashley madison went ahead and leaked their db
 
And they also want to collect data output at any step in the chain, including "non-output" like graphs
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes docker?
Erf.
 
user1804599
who is skorezore
 
user1804599
8:51 PM
is it @ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ?
 
@elyse Nooble
 
user1804599
ooooh
 
transferOutput(m1,m2)
bah I'll just go with that
 
...
 

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