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02:00
@JerryCoffin Oh, thanks.
anyway, I guess no one here enjoys the analogy between C++ memory model and relativistic physics as much as I do :(
I guess everyone has been bored to death with it before.
user562566
@Trantorian Well tbh, it doesn't seem to be much of a discussion
the whole thing is really hilarious to me, but I guess I'm alone with that sentiment :( oh well
user562566
@R.MartinhoFernandes indeed
user562566
02:01
@Trantorian it was kind of funny an hour ago
well, the reason i think it's funny is because i suspect we're in some kind of self-consistent dependency loop actually
@Trantorian It doesn't particularly bother me, but I don't find it particularly interesting either.
Does anyone know if volatile in C# uses memory barriers?
i can't think of any other reason for the universe to exist unless it's bootstrapping itself in a self-consistent causal loop
@Cicada It does.
Well, or something to the same effect.
02:03
but, well, I guess not many other people shares that intuition
@JerryCoffin meh, ok, too bad
user562566
@Trantorian That makes no sense. Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Declaring such an entity as self-causal is incoherent. Anyway #boring #yolo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can't find it in the spec but I seemed to remember so
@TechnikEmpire how do you avoid infinite regress?
if you define everything has a cause
user562566
@Trantorian By having a causal explanation that didn't begin to exist
user562566
and therefore requires no causal explanation itself
02:04
and you define the universe is "everything" (such everything transitively causally linked to any part of the "universe" is also part of the "universe")
Aug 22 '11 at 9:07, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> A volatile read has ―acquire semantics‖ meaning that the read is guaranteed to occur prior to any references to memory that occur after the read instruction in the CIL instruction sequence. A volatile write has ―release semantics‖ meaning that the write is guaranteed to happen after any memory references prior to the write instruction in the CIL instruction sequence.
then it seems to leave no alternative than that the universe is its own cause
i mean, unless you have other definitions
user562566
can someone whip up some code to do port independent protocol detection. kthx I'll post it as a SO question and give you write access to a repo
Wait, that's from the Java spec.
lol
02:05
I just think defining "universe == everything" and saying "everything has a cause" necessarily leads to "universe is its own cause"
user562566
@Trantorian no I'd declare the universe as encompassing time and space and everything therein
user562566
@Trantorian not everything has a cause
user562566
everything which begins to exist has a cause
@Trantorian Not sure if relevant. But a few days ago I compared object code generated by the compiler for a program that compared atomic vs volatile (silly I know). Writing to an atomic bool using relaxed memory order produced identical asm as a write to volatile bool.
A read of a volatile field is called a volatile read. A volatile read has “acquire semantics”; that is, it is guaranteed to occur prior to any references to memory that occur after it in the instruction sequence.
A write of a volatile field is called a volatile write. A volatile write has “release semantics”; that is, it is guaranteed to happen after any memory references prior to the write instruction in the instruction sequence.
17.4.3
02:06
@StackedCrooked x86? relaxed loads and stores on x86 are just MOV
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thank you so much!
I'm not trying to defend volatile or anything. Just wanting to stir up the discussion.
It implies this answer is wrong
Interesting.
Thanks.
02:08
@Cicada Nah, it's right.
@StackedCrooked on x86 a volatile read/write will basically compile to the same thing as a relaxed atomic op, but that's just because of how the memory model maps to x86; it's not the same on Itanium probably
Like in C++ std::vector<T> volatile* doesn't make any of the contents of the vector volatile.
since on Itanium normal loads/stores aren't sufficient for the relaxed memory model, but I don't really understand how
If I ensure two threads never run in parallel do I still have to make my list variable volatile?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because in C++ volatile does not imply memory barrier, but in C# it does. So reading from the list variable will ensure that the list contents are up-to-date.
02:09
The question was wrong though.
It was incomprehensible.
@Cicada also MSVC++'s does :)
@Cicada I didn't say anything about memory barriers there.
Nice save!
@Cicada you can safely use "volatile" for double checked locking with MSVC++, since Microsoft (as an extension) puts memory barriers on volatile reads and writes
Wait, I meant std::vector<T> *volatile, though.
02:10
@Cicada not suggesting it's a good idea though
@Trantorian We're not talking about the C++ memory model which is different
@Cicada I'm not talking about memory models.
I'm talking about pointers.
How you access the pointer has no bearing on what you do with the data it points to.
But if the pointer is volatile (with C# semantics) then the data it points to must be up-to-date
std::vector<T> *const if you will.
@Cicada I know, I was just talking adding extra info on top of what you said about volatile in C++ and complaining a bit about non-standard MSVC++ behavior
02:12
@Cicada No. Only the reference.
Why?
A read of a volatile field
The field is not the List.
It's just a reference.
@Cicada complaining because people writing MSVC++ don't ever learn to write portable C++
Memory barriers are not specific to a memory location, are they
Consider class Bar { List<int> x = new List<int>(); volatile List<int> y = x; }
@Cicada The spec only requires it for that particular field, though.
02:13
But the hardware doesn't work like that
But the compiler might.
@Cicada not in any real hardware, AFAIK: I think processor hardware instructions are just blanket barriers
Then the whole language would break
No, it would not.
Because then it means your entire data has to be volatile
How do you make a lock-free queue?
It means you have to use proper synchronisation.
@Cicada With proper lock-free ops.
Like which
CAS and the like?
Okay, but what about the data in the queue, it's not volatile.
02:15
It doesn't have to be.
Intra-thread ordering does the job.
@Cicada there's a linked-list example with CAS by Herb Sutter in open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2014/n4058.pdf
Then how do you guarantee it is up-to-date
@Trantorian Stop linking to C++ things I'm not talking about C++ and I know how these things work lol
in the appendix
It was a rethorical question guys
02:16
ok sorry
My point being, any memory barrier works. It's not specific to a field.
@Cicada There are no memory barriers in the spec.
(Well, except for explicit ones you call methods for)
Am I misunderstanding your quote, then?
Maybe not. I might be doing too much at the same time.
It's okay, you know I value your opinion a lot so please think of it carefully :p (when you have time / rest)
02:19
Spec defines the memory order stuff IIRC. Not barriers specifically.
@TechnikEmpire By the way, is your contention then that the universe never started to exist?
@TechnikEmpire infinite regress infinitely far back? some newly proposed physics (rainbow gravity) implies that the Big Bang started from something already existing and of non-zero size, actually, so it is a possibility I guess
user562566
@Trantorian no of course not
@TechnikEmpire of course not as in of course it never "started" to exist or that you're not saying that? since you say the universe doesn't have a cause
user562566
@Trantorian No I didn't say that, lol I said everything that begins to exist necessarily requires a cause since there is a point in the finite past when the thing in question did not exist. Unless of course one believes we live in a reality where things magically manifest out of thin air
@TechnikEmpire I think things can show up out-of-thin-air if they're self-consistent. basically a fractal structure that explains its own existence. not sure what else could possibly happen, actually
@TechnikEmpire this is basically exactly like the 42 out of nowhere coming from the LWG issue
@TechnikEmpire I guess still don't know what you find wrong with my argument that the definitions 1) "the universe is everything" and 2) "the universe has a cause" leads to 3) "the universe is its own cause", since if there's something else causing it, it would be part of "everything" and therefore part of the universe
it seems like you were disagreeing with 2) but I don't understand how
user562566
@Trantorian No it's not quite the same. Purely abstract. There was nothing, now there is something. What caused it. If it was it's own casual explanation, then it would have never have began to exist, it would have already existed, so that's incoherent.
user562566
@Trantorian The universe isn't everything
Your display resolution is lower than the recommended resolution for installing the AMD graphics driver. Do you want to increase the resolution for a better installation experience?
WTf
02:28
just define it as so. colloquially we define the universe as the physical time-space we're in, but i'm just saying we can define it as whatever ultimate mathematical structure it exists in
user562566
@Trantorian It's the weak definitions and confusing of types. Forget what the universe is. You can regard it as just an entity with a beginning, a beginning being a point in the finite past where it did not exist, then began to exist
My resolution is 5760x2160.
How the fuck is that not enough for the installer of the driver.
user562566
@R.MartinhoFernandes You already answered this. You said "AMD"
requires 800x600
user562566
Ancient Micro Devices
02:30
@Rapptz 5760x2160 should do.
@TechnikEmpire does Pi need something to cause it to exist? or does it just exist by virtue of being a consistent mathematical structure? I don't see any reason the universe needs to have something from which it was created "from" in some temporal dimension (not necessarily the same one as as our perception of time is in), any more than "Pi" needs to be created
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh I was joking
user562566
@Trantorian Pi is a pure abstract, so no
@TechnikEmpire a mathematical structure exists by virtue of being self-consistent
@TechnikEmpire well, there's a purely abstract concept called a universal dovetailer
it's a short program that computes all possible turing-complete programs
very simple definition, just like Pi
if the universe is computable, though, it necessarily exists as part of the universal dovetailer
which is a simple to define abstract mathematical structure just like Pi is
user562566
@Trantorian Sorry but the conversation just keeps flying all over the place and it seems almost as if you're intentionally mixing terms to make the issue more complex than it is. Everything that begins to exist has a cause. Pi did not begin to exist
02:32
Pi doesn't exist; only tau does.
(actually, there's an infinite number of ways to write a universal dovetailer, so there's not just one, but they're basically all isomorphic to each other anyway: it's basically an algorithm that enumerates and runs all possible programs such that any finite length program is computed to any finite time step in finite time)
ok, so why doesn't Pi need to "begin to exist"?
because it's abstract and mathematical?
@StackedCrooked "Young, hot and flexible" is easy to translate... :-)
user562566
@Trantorian Not even mathematical, it's a purely abstract concept
if the universe is computable, then it can be computed by something abstract and mathematical
@JerryCoffin o hey you watched it :)
02:34
actually, the point of the universal dovetailer concept is basically that the set of natural numbers is isomorphic to the set of all possible computations
user562566
@Trantorian who said the universe is computable and please tell me where I can buy one of these very powerful computers.
and the set of natural numbers is a very simple concept
well, do you suspect the universe isn't Turing-computable?
it seems like it should be
therefore the computation of the universe is isomorphic to a very large natural number
user562566
@Trantorian please explain to me what that has to do with the logic of whether or not something which has a finite past requires a casual explanation or not
I'm saying there's no reason for you to assume a dichotomy between "physical" and "mathematical"
the actor model guy in this has an apple watch
02:36
you wouldn't know if you were being computed by a computer
it would seem just as real to you
user562566
@Trantorian Well even if I were
you just happen to attach significance to the structures around you that you're existing within and say that they have some property called "physical existence"
user562566
the beginning of this universe would still have a causal explanation, at the hands of the builders and developers of the computer simulating it
@Trantorian And you just happen not to.
but can you give any experiment that determines whether you're in a "physical" world
the predicate basically has no meaning
02:37
@Prismatic 2014..?
user562566
@Trantorian no, we accept that we are based on reason
because any experiment you could run you could also run within a simulation
@StackedCrooked good point
must be another kinda smart watch
@TechnikEmpire but that's the point...does Pi exist before you calculate it?
@Trantorian We will never be able to assert that
02:38
suppose we've computed one trillion digits of Pi so far
man it would be cool if github had an online code editor so you didn't have to fork stuff
does that mean that the next digit doesn't exist until someone physical runs the computer to compute it?
@Prismatic how bout it's a big watch..? :D
I wonder what github is doing with all their moneys anyway
does a natural number not exist until some physical computer is large enough to represent it?
user562566
02:38
@Trantorian the argument you're giving now is simply that scientific method isn't the only way to know truths, you can know truths by reasoning as well. So again I'm not following this is a whole different topic than "can a finite entity be self causal" which is a very easy "no" by reason
@StackedCrooked I watched the dancing, anyway. I can manage Flemish (and French) well enough to order from a menu, but can't follow conversations well at all (I catch a few words here and there, but that's about it).
user562566
@Trantorian no, because it's a pure abstract and has nothing to do with physical representation if we erased the whole universe right now, that would change nothing about mathematical truths
@TechnikEmpire well I didn't say the universe was a finite entity, but in any case, i don't think that "no" is obvious
@JerryCoffin I suppose you got the basic gist. (Jury was positive.)
@TechnikEmpire but that's the point. Godel and Turing (in different ways) showed that natural numbers encode computations
in fact, you can enumerate all possible computations by enumerating the natural numbers
that's where the proof of Godel's incompleteness theorem comes from
02:41
the actor guy is getting blown up with his lock free dogma
any system capable of representing the natural numbers is capable of representing arbitrary computations, including self-referential ones
and therefore no such system can be complete, consistent, and sound, since it would lead to a contradiction when such a system tried to proof something about itself
@StackedCrooked Yeah, that didn't take a lot to figure out (or understand why their reaction would be positive).
@JerryCoffin you must be a body language genius
user562566
@Trantorian I really don't care who said what, sound like a lot of appeal to authority here
@TechnikEmpire so my point is, if you think that "the set of natural numbers" exists as an abstract mathematical entity before anyone computes it "physically", then you are saying all possible Turing-computable programs exist
02:43
@StackedCrooked It doesn't take a genius to recognize standing ovation. :-)
@TechnikEmpire Do you have a disproof of Godel's incompleteness?
user562566
I don't need anyone to tell me that it's unreasonable for me to explain something finite by referring to itself
user562566
hold on you're right
@TechnikEmpire It's not an appeal to authority. It's a reference to things that were done before.
user562566
02:43
I typed out a static const member function declaration
user562566
with no definition
user562566
and when I hit compile
@TechnikEmpire it's not appeal to authority, i'm just summarizing what mathematically is known nowadays and that you would basically revolutionize mathematics with if you disproved
user562566
the compiler said
user562566
oh no problem, it just exists
user562566
02:44
and I got a binary
Diagnosis: MSVC.
user562566
lol
@TechnikEmpire Well, if you're just going to take something I don't find reasonable as an immutable self-evidence axiom, I guess we're stuck
this talk is jokes
@TechnikEmpire oh well, maybe we can revisit this at the end of time if there's an afterlife
02:45
@Trantorian That sounds a bit like saying: "if you recognize how water can be converted to ice, and you recognize that water exists, then you have proven that all water is ice."
@TechnikEmpire maybe one of us will change our minds by then
user562566
Things that begin to exist don't necessarily require an external cause. So there's no need to provide a definition for any of my declared members anymore, since they simply are their own explanation
user562566
just shaved so much time off my work
user562566
thanks bruh
@JerryCoffin it's not saying that A can be converted to B, it's saying that there's a direct isomorphism between A and B
@Trantorian You're taking isomorphism to mean more than it does.
@JerryCoffin any statement about computable programs can be restated as a statement about the natural numbers and mean exactly the same thing
@Trantorian Isomorphism means that one can be converted to another, within specific constraints.
user562566
@Trantorian Sorry but I won't be changing my mind. It's very simple. If this wasn't a basic truth that we all understood, scientists would be sitting around twiddling their thumbs instead of being on an endless search for casual explanations
@Trantorian Perhaps we can try to continue the conversation when you've recovered from the drugs you seem to be taking right now. :-)
02:48
@JerryCoffin Valid.
user562566
@JerryCoffin Or maybe he should share them
@TechnikEmpire This is philosophy not science.
omfg fuck the "here in my garage just bought this new lamborghini" guy
@JerryCoffin It's stronger than that, because there's a 1-1 mapping between computations and natural numbers: the easiest way to see this is by taking a program which is a universal dovetailer: every finite step of any finite sized Turing-complete program in a given Turing-complete language thus maps to a particular finite integer step of the universal dovetailer's execution
@Trantorian It's not stronger than that.
@Trantorian Notice the use of the word "maps".
user562566
02:51
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm talking about reasoning, which goes hand in hand with science, since scientific proof is only useful in a context where we already have reasoned that it holds any value or meaning at all. Plus, I know it's hard to find, but the origin of the discussion was a simple question about the universe beginning to exist
@TechnikEmpire It also goes hand in hand with philosophy.
Science doesn't deal with truth or existence or unfalsifiables, though.
user562566
@R.MartinhoFernandes right
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, right, there's a 1-1 mapping: any computation can be encoded as a natural number, a Godel number in a given Godel encoding
@Trantorian See, you keep using words like "can be encoded as" instead of "is". There's a reason for that.
No.​​​​​​​​​​​​ — Mysticial 40 mins ago
evening
user562566
02:54
I'm gonna go have some coffee that manifested itself into my kitchen and smoke some cigarettes that the universe computer emerged into my coat pocket
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, anyway, this is kind of missing the overall point of this is to point out, which is that @TechnikEmpire already conceded that abstract mathematical constructs can exist without cause, and my point in reply is that simple-to-define abstract mathematical constructs can encode arbitrarily complex compuations
Distinct lack of the verb to be, still.
@R.MartinhoFernandes no external "computer" is needed for a computation to exist in anymore than Pi needs to be in a computer's physical memory to exist
Pi is not the bits in a computer's physical memory.
@R.MartinhoFernandes presumably you believe that the digits of Pi exist before anyone actually knows what they are? they don't pop into existence because someone physically runs an algorithm to compute them, do they?
02:56
I didn't say anything about that.
@R.MartinhoFernandes right, that's exactly my point. computations don't require some physical computer for them to exist in
I'm merely objecting to your misuse of "isomorphism".
@R.MartinhoFernandes a computation exists as a mathematical structure without requiring someone to physically perform that computation in some "physical" world
user562566
@Trantorian I think that your logic is broken by just looking at the English of it. A computation can exist without a computer. The result exists independent of the mechanism so strongly bound as its origin that the cause is embedded as the root word of the effect
02:57
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, that's fine, and I'm saying it's not really the point
@Trantorian You tried to make your point with it (and you keep trying)
I think I'll plonk someone.
@R.M I'll start redacting an answer on that volatile question, let me know what you think
well, whatever, I don't really need to continue with this
we can all agree to disagree and meet up in some afterlife to argue it again
it's not really of any immediate concern...i just find @TechnikEmpire's assumptions, which (s?)he find to be self-evident and not even worth disputing, to be odd and completely contrary to my intuitions
user562566
@Trantorian all I originally said was that an entity with a definite finite past requires a casual explanation. That's all. I don't believe we live in a universe where bunnies and unicorns just pop up in the sky and people look and say "meh, we don't need to explain how that happened, it just did because it is." Anyway this is getting tired now, let's just drop it and leave room for some fresh conversation. :)
BTW @R.Martinho, did you get your quote from the ECMA spec or another version?
@TechnikEmpire I'm not saying that, I'm saying everything has a cause, except that the cause might be circularly self-consistent, like the 42 loop from the LWG issue
Microsoft publishes specs in word docs :(
@TechnikEmpire every step in that program execution has a cause: it's just that they happen to form a closed loop
I wish they had an online searchable spec. I hate downloading stuff
@TechnikEmpire anyway, we can stop--this doesn't really matter to me that much
how can something written in C++ be so bad?
It just needs to be written in C++
It's written by people like you.
Internet Explorer was not written by me! That was very insulting!
I wish I could claim that the internet explorer was written by me, no matter how badly it's written. But if it was written by a team of 10+ then I must say it's horrible. Coz 10+ >> 1.
Also 10+ > 10++ (except for 11)
03:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes Of course. Why would it be any different?
I remember looking up the docs of TlbImp2 and they were in a Word doc.
03:57
it's pretty strange lol
The more I think about this volatile question the more confused I get
urgh
Pretty cool, Feeds
@Cicada time to hit /r/programming
I think my answer is correct though.
@Rapptz Let the fun ride begin!
04:12
already checked
all boring
A Taste of Rust (evanmiller.org)
first sentence I read
Update: Steve Klabnik has responded to some of the issues I brought up here.
he works quick
a true ninja
The computer's memory is divided up into three basic regions: stack memory, heap memory, and static memory.
INACCURACY ALERT
@Cicada did you call the police
meh my answer sucks
I don't know enough about C# to quantify.
It's just that the OP's premise is a little flawed, it doesn't correspond to his code, and I just noticed it now
So I had to do a number of edits and I'm not sure if my answer is relevant anymore
oh well
05:22
Wow Rust has no tail call optimization
@Cicada Yo do you remember us talking about a Lua module that some dudes in here developed? Do you mind giving a link to the github for that?
Or its name..
Yeah @Rapptz and @ThePhD I advertisted your work when in Korea lol
lol
@Cicada Well done! @Rapptz, @ThePhD
It supports Lua 5.2. NICE.
Hope VS 2015 RC can compile this.
+1
IIRC ThePhD did some work on that, yes, it should, but not sure.
05:33
It's his part of the project. :P
Yeah ThePhD does the VC stuff
A very well made library binding both languages. Feels like I am going home sooner than expected.
A feeling today is gonna be a good day.
@Cicada You live in Korea again?
No I went there last weekend and @Dean and I met
you sure travel a lot
05:44
He @Cicada does.
s/He/She/
I believe the proper pronoun is Xe.
@MarkGarcia Thanks Mark, you're next :p
(ㅇ___ㅇ)a
you should come here as a business trip to work on lucpm™
05:47
Where do you live again? I only know your timezone
Freedomville.
Oh, that's far
@Cicada Well yeah.
+12 hours ahead of me isn't exactly close.
did anyone watch the video i posted
its so trippy man
05:50
Are you contradicting yourself? First you said this: "You don't have two threads, you have three: one thread that launches the two others. That one is always running in parallel of either other threads, and it uses a shared flag to communicate with them. Given that and the code you posted, it is not required to mark the list as volatile.". Then in the end of the answer you still say I need to make the list as volatile ?? — user300455 22 mins ago
lol why did I bother
How do I game loop
@Cicada I'll wait. ;)
The bad thing being I have almost no holidays left
so far my loop looks like
05:54
            while(m_sim_lag_us >= m_sim_dt_us) {
                // do work for:
                // t0=m_sim_time_us,
                // t1=(m_sim_time_us + m_sim_dt_us)

                // update world xfs
                updateWorldTransforms(m_root_widget.get(),glm::mat4{1.0});

                m_sim_lag_us -= m_sim_dt_us;
                m_sim_time_us += m_sim_dt_us;
            }
it's disgusting
@Rapptz Think threading before it's too late.
not that mine's any better
xfs
for "transforms"? really?
whats wrong with it
yes
05:54
lol
you have Mysticial syndrome
4
AKA bad variable names
2
    while(running) {
        sf::Time elapsedTime = clock.restart();
        deltaTime += elapsedTime;
        process();

        while(deltaTime >= timePerFrame) {
            update(deltaTime);
            deltaTime -= timePerFrame;
        }

        render();
    }
xfs stands for transforms as much as int stands for intestine
this is mine
take example on Rapptz except for the explicit types that should be auto :p
That statement is too unintuitive.
sf::Time elapsedTime = clock.restart();
05:58
i think we're doing the same thing
mines looks more pro though because of all the underscores
I don't like this naming scheme.
I only adopted it because SFML is retarded.
why are you using SFML
I ask myself every day.
I hear glfw is nice
I'd rather not
05:59
I'm using SDL
@Rapptz What's in the name?
I actually like SFML (runs away from pitchforks and torches)
SFML does not care for generic code.
It'd be okay otherwise.
I don't hate it.
SFML is C++-noob-friendly, aka gamedev friendly.
06:01
wow cicada
I like how you equate game dev to newbies
@chmod711telkitty You don't?
I don't know many game dev so I can't comment on that.
hello*
morning all
06:12
Good morning @thecoshman.
mornin
06:31
@Columbo 1) I wouldn't rely on the fact that the technique will be ill-formed, there are many more ways to do thois besides friend injection (and when talking to the folks in the committee, their "solution" is moot)
@Columbo changing everything that is required to disallow such techniques will require.. a lot of changes
@Columbo also, what was the other discussion really about - and what did you ask me? because I cannot remember you asking me anything regarding that quoted text - ever.
@Columbo @sehe jftr; it is not rare to see me at parties, with my laptop in my backpack - happens pretty much every time (mostly because you never know where you'll end up)
Ven
Ven
06:55
o/, lounge
@Rapptz why use "#if defined" instead of #ifdef?
...you're using ifndef in some places
I use both
Ven
Ven
any reason why?

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