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20:00
@StackedCrooked Extremely hard to say. This is on the level of lvl1 cache misses.
I don't think you can inline the indirection with runtime dispatch, though.
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus I want to know how to profile compile time. :| For testing whether template-based or constexpr-based factorial will compile faster
(I think that's Strategy, right?)
@Xeo Tip: it's always "slow".
Unless it's "slower" or "go on vacation, I'll call when this is ready".
(You could probably tell if you knew compiler internals and attached profiler to that.)
You know your compile is slow when your target is "make all-fax-me-in-my-fishing-boat"
@CatPlusPlus I have been thinking about doing that. But for some reason I still haven't.
But thanks for reminding me.
There's no point in speculation.
It would make a great blog post. If I had a blog.
20:04
I almost have a blog.
Or any sort of writing talent.
@StackedCrooked dont knock it til you try it. My proficiency for writing, even in my native tounge, changed alot from my age 23-29.
Xeo
Xeo
3
Q: Use of Operator ->*

Amol SharmaWhat is the meaning of operator ->*? and how it can be useful in overloading ?

I promise to not knock it until I have tried it after age 29.
Xeo
Xeo
Recruiting close voters!
20:07
@Xeo You have my sword!
How much do you pay?
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus 25rep
@CaptainGiraffe AND MY FAX!
Xeo
Xeo
No wait, minimum bounty is 50, right?
Dunno, never used that.
20:08
@Xeo I thought so
Meh, I want to do fun stuff, not learn this boring maths.
@CatPlusPlus what maths is it that are boring?
Fourier transform and related.
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, I still troll the xkcd forums for why is 0.999... = 1. and 0/0 should really be 1.
20:11
@CatPlusPlus easy fourier transform or the hard one (generalized integral transform, parseval etc...)
After all these years in college and university, I still don't know how to integrate a function.
Dunno. It's called "Fourier transform" here.
That's all I know.
lol
@EtiennedeMartel That's possible?
@EtiennedeMartel Easy y = 1, integral x 0 to 2, = 2.
@RMartinhoFernandes I was lucky, I guess.
20:12
I can integrate functions that don't require thinking.
@EtiennedeMartel No, I meant to ask if it's possible to know how to integrate functions.
@RMartinhoFernandes Ooooh. Good point.
Actually, I think I've forgotten the rules and need to refresh, but I could!
I thought it was magic.
Yeah, you just ask Mathematica or Matlab and voila.
20:14
One day I'll bother to learn that!
^ This is a very young Belgian band.
I like how definitions of derivative and integrals look so hard, and then all you do is look up the result in the tables.
Also limits suck.
@StackedCrooked Cool music
@StackedCrooked The drum reminds me of Star Guitar.
I remember how our mathematical analysis professor claimed that a good understanding of mathematical relations will help understanding relational databases.
20:17
Well, I guess mathematical relations are not webscale.
@StackedCrooked In concept I would agree; In reality, not sure
@CaptainGiraffe So do we all.
@StackedCrooked So from my teaching perspective I'm undecided wether this is useful.
The only maths I've really used until now is linear algebra.
And addition.
20:19
I'm pretty sure it isn't very useful.
@EtiennedeMartel Indeed.
Algebra is way more relevant.
Can't go very far without a matrix or two in this world.
integrating functions isn't looking up in tables. Then you're not integrating cool enough functions
template <typename Index>
template <typename Data>
index_buffer<Index>::index_buffer(Data const& data, buffer_usage usage)
This is lovely.
Two template declarations.
I have for the last 8 or so years considered doing a maths course for computer scientists, kinda like the reverse that Knuth is doing. I'm still short for ideas though.
Xeo
Xeo
I hate them
20:21
I wonder if you can make three.
Xeo
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Probably
@Xeo I meant "lovely" in a sarcastic way.
Man, the drum solo at the end of B'BOOM is awesome.
Xeo
Xeo
template<class T>
struct X{
  template<class U>
  struct Y{
    template<class V>
    void Z();
  };
};

template<class T>
template<class U>
template<class V>
void X<T>::Y<U>::Z(){
}
@RMartinhoFernandes Nest arbitarily deep at your own discretion.
Stepanov wants to design the STL on algebraic foundations so that the entire field of algebra with hundreds of years of mathematical progress becomes available for free in the STL library.
Or something like that.
20:24
What can possibly go wrong?
people's understanding of bivectors
and tangential vector spaces
@StackedCrooked It is easier for me to teach API's and then teach the math concepts then the other way around.
@Xeo How can you not feel dirty now?
Xeo
Xeo
Template wankery. ♥
There, dirty.
20:25
@EtiennedeMartel He currently can't pull it off because the C++ is lacking a few key features. Concepts being the most important one I believe. I would understand more of this if I managed to finish reading his book.
@Xeo That can turn into template circle jerking.
Xeo
Xeo
Either it's me or Twitter is fucking slow.
@StackedCrooked There was a proposal to add concepts for Semigroups, Rings, and friends.
I'm getting a Fail Whale on my end.
Xeo
Xeo
20:27
> Something is technically wrong.
@RMartinhoFernandes That sounds interesting even though I have no idea what you are talking about.
That explains the oneboxing fail.
We're whalers on the moon!
Xeo
Xeo
I went to Ikea to buy a €1.99 lamp and came home with €80 worth of incredible useful stuff I didn't even know I'm missing. Sigh.
Xeo
Xeo
That's the dreaded Ikea effect.
@sbi so what did you buy?
@EtiennedeMartel Oh, Weebls.
20:37
@RMartinhoFernandes And why is this a good thing? (I'm a little too tired to read the article right now..)
Who said it's a good thing?
I do like it.
Hm, nothing more than a personal preference?
Mostly because it would imply concepts :)
What's the practical value, though?
Satisfaction, which leads to higher dopamine and serotonin levels in the brain.
20:40
Mathturbation.
> Although the concepts of this document are not used in the context of current standard libraries they are fundamental for the definition of Every numeric generic library.
Someone thought they were important enough for a proposal.
@RMartinhoFernandes Looks like a collage of intellectual terms.
Maybe "Every" is a library name?
Yeah it's a singleton.
Which would possibly indicate a name even stupider than "Go".
20:41
Every::Instance()->blah()
Every::one
Go is actually a pretty stupid name for a programming language.
It's a stupid name for anything on the Internet, because it's nigh unsearchable.
concept Commutative sounds useful.
It's almost as stupid as D.
20:43
C, too, but it predates Google, so it can be forgiven.
I once proposed renaming D to Diamond. Because Ruby was popular at the time and I reasoned that Diamonds are forever (while Ruby would lose popularity).
"Diamond — a language a lot of people have died for."
"Diamond — a language to help you get laid."
I was ridiculed. The only person agreeing with me was a clueless Chinese dude.
That's what I get for posting online after drinking too much coffee.
> I like the name D. It says it all with just one letter.
Hey, guess what? That's the problem.
Geez, some people.
20:52
D is a not-so-good grade according to the grading system in American schools.
D graded a D in programming language popularity.
You could say D derp'd.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Well, I did buy that 1.99 rice paper lamp, for sure.
@StackedCrooked Oh, now we know your real name!
Here's how you should have done it: bring only enough money for transportation (if needed), and ~5€ or something. No credit card.
@sbi You could probably find it out quickly with some Googling.
Or just not buy stuff.
sbi
sbi
20:59
@RMartinhoFernandes But then I would have had to pass by all this incredibly useful stuff!
@StackedCrooked But that never occurred to me.
@sbi Well that either means you have no interest in my personal details, or you're ..unintelligent. Should I give you the benefit of the doubt?
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Well, and what should I think of a person who uses a pseudonym when that could be found simply by googling?!
@sbi That it is a superior person?
Real names suck.
sbi
sbi
@CatPlusPlus :)
21:07
Some things must suck in order for other things to be cool.
I accidentally know the real names of Als and Tony. Someone posted them here in a moment of silliness (and was promptly prompted to remove them). And I have a good memory.
Well, you're a robot.
I also know @sbi's because he gave enough clues for anyone to get it.
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Damn, I was afraid someone would find out! :( Of course, it would have to be you...
21:08
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't remember any of that.
I won't spoil it.
sbi
sbi
Well, so long as someone reading what I puke here doesn't find by simply googling, I won't begrudge you knowing my real name.
@RMartinhoFernandes Thanks. I really appreciate that.
Not that anyone cares.
I've opened the notebook. That's a first step towards learning this crap!
If I'd know @sbi's real name I'd undoubtly stalk him to death.
sbi
sbi
21:11
@CatPlusPlus In the last decade I made it a hobby of mine to ask bosses whether they google the names of developers applying for a job in their company. So far, I have asked about half a dozen, and they all admitted to doing so. Some even admitted that they have weeded out applicants based on their findings.
@StackedCrooked Not me? I'm a bit saddened by this.
@CaptainGiraffe I've already seen a giraffe on TV once.
The "mere windiness" I mentioned this morning apparently resulted in three heavily wounded. Belgian newslink in Dutch.
So, some gibberish happened?
@RMartinhoFernandes Basically.
People got hurt by gibberish?
21:16
Given enough gibberish, people die.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Anyway, to enumerate my gatherings: I bought a lamp to put over my stove, four(!) bulbs to replace the broken one above the mirror in the bathroom (my daughter had been complaining about it being broken), one of those new-fangled LED lamps (just in case it's not the bulb that's broken...), a cool metal trivet, cork mats, some xmas decoration for next year (real cheap!), a pretty cool night light for my night-blind son, a pitcher to be used in the garden, two sets of four little bowls...
I just hear on the radio that the Stone Roses have reunited! OMFG!!
@sbi Xmas decorations for next year?
Wow.
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, I suppose it's nice for the kids' room and it was only €.99. :-/
@sbi What is a pitcher? (I only know the baseball-related meaning.)
21:18
TIL Nyctalopia.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked A rather large jar with a lid and a spout. You can use it to put water on the table. Or other stuff to drink.
@sbi Ah, I see.
@sbi That's a little scary, given my real name, there are two people under that name that could easily be confused. A lot of similarities.
Well, I haven't really understood nyctalopia yet.
It means your kid sees nothing under say, moonlight?
@sbi There are a few embarrasing things to be found about me on Google. However, due to the massive amount of information it's unlikely to be found.
21:21
That, and, you can always find something not good, on any name on google.
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I suppose he sees as much as I do, I think he only believes it's too dark for him to reach the door from his bed at night without me coming and turning on some light.
I'm also blind when it's completely dark. I should probably see a doctor.
@Xaade There's a wanted Timorese terrorist with my name!
@RMartinhoFernandes How do you know it's not you?
21:24
How convenient.
Also, I don't remember killing anyone lately.
Did a quick search. There are three people with my name that could be easily confused for myself, given identical schools locations, and backgrounds. One is a gynecologist, another is a redneck, and the third is a guy continuing his education.
Or being in Timor for that matter.
@Xaade "redneck" is a profession?
I once almost killed a mosquito, but someone stopped me.
Mosquitoes are not people.
21:25
Yeah, duh.
@RMartinhoFernandes Apparently so, unless you count hobbies.
@sbi Sorry, I'm confused. Should I infer that you are also night-blind, or that your kid is just afraid of the dark?
@RMartinhoFernandes It's a property.
"When I grow up, I want to be a redneck."
@StackedCrooked I can see surprisingly well in the dark. Enough to make out the landscape (minus objects that don't reflect well and match their background color).
21:27
@sbi I always slept in a room with curtains that didn't fully cover all incoming light. So was used to always having at least a little light (streetlight). When I went to sleep over at my aunt the room was completely dark. It totally freaked me out and I started hallucinating.
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I think he's either being clumsy or afraid of the dark. Both would fit his character. :)
I frequently traverse the stairs without turning the light on, much to the frustration of my following wife.
I think there should always be a little light so you remember where the walls are and what the interior of the room looks like.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked There's a curtain in the room he sleeps in, but it doesn't fully block the street light either.
I prefer my room in total darkness.
21:30
Why don't you experiment with echo-location. It actually works if you pay attention.
When I referesh this page the icons have all vanished. Does anybody else experience this?
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked I'm afraid to try now. :-{
Yes, the avatars are gone.
21:31
It's usually temporary (~1 second, tops) until the browser loads the pictures.
Close your eyes, look in a random direction, and make a loud and sharp "tick" sound. The sound will reverb, echo, or dampen, if there's no obstacle.
Then it must be a very long lasting temporary thing.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked I suppose they are served by the CDN? I remember that effect when they must have changed the CDN's address and the new one was blocked by my browser.
What is the CDN?
Apparently the corp filter is broke.
21:32
Or something.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Content Delivery network.
How should I know?
Avatars are served directly from Gravatar.
I can load any page now.
@Xaade That's good isn't it?
21:33
Not sure.
Are they teasing me?
Maybe it's a test.
A test of faithfulness?
...
A test of "whoever opens a forbidden site is fired".
I've refeshed 11 times now and the avatars still don't appear.
12 times.
21:34
I know, because there's a forum that I get good info from, but usually have to use google's cache page to get it. I accidentally clicked a link on it and loaded a live page.
sbi
sbi
@Xaade My apartment is on the fourth floor, and when I come home late I never turn on the light in the staircase, but walk by the street and moon light coming through the staircase windows. When I come with this son, I try to talk him into trying this. Sometimes I succeed, and he's astonished when he reaches my apartment door. But sometimes he just freaks out and runs for the light switch, lamenting he can't see a thing. :)
@StackedCrooked gravatar.com works for you?
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Can you reach gravatar.com?
I have two scars on my shins due to a running into little black table in my apartment in the dark.
@sbi Stress impairs vision. Maybe he gets nervous. It takes more focus to see with dim light.
21:36
@sbi @CatPlusPlus Yes I can reach gravatar.com.
It features an astronaut.
Clear the cache?
Let me try that.
Dance a little around the PC muttering ancient words?
sbi
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Words like "abacus"?
@CatPlusPlus like "groovy" and "cowabunga"
21:37
And don't forget about the goat.
Jun 9 '11 at 11:55, by Martinho Fernandes
Obtain a blank piece of paper [1].
Tear, or cut, the paper into small pieces.
Upon each piece, write down a label for an element you wish to sort. Use one piece of paper for each and every element.
For mystical, or even pseudo-religious, effect you might wish to perform some sort of ceremony on the paper now. A song is usually good. A dance adds an extra air of authenticity [2].
Place all of the pieces of paper into a hat, or other container.
One-by-one, remove each piece of paper, and form a line on a desk, or failing everything else, the floor.
sbi
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Is that the Rite Of AshkEnte?
lol, no.
It's a sorting algorithm.
@CatPlusPlus I did this:
Not the cookies, silly.
21:40
But the room still looks like this:
@CatPlusPlus Well, better too delete too much than too few, not?
Try other browsers?
Well, does going to gravatar.com/avatar/… work?
Restart the browser?
Set the PC on fire?
@RMartinhoFernandes Wow, that fixes it!
21:41
@RMartinhoFernandes All that discounts one fatal flaw. You only have one list. If the quantum processor sorted the list parallel, they'd all check the same result.
Apparently you are.
I now consider you to be master of the codes.
@StackedCrooked How do you take screenshots with shadows? Do you have a white background?
Can someone provide a link or explain why C++11 still doesn't require destructors to be nothrow?
21:42
Some screen sniping tools can drop shadow.
@MooingDuck Because compatibility and freedom and stuff.
@RMartinhoFernandes The key combination for capturing a window on Mac is Shift-Command-F4 followed by the space bar. Something I learned this morning on the Apple stack exchange site. (How quickly it turned out to be useful :D)
It'd break Boost.Exception for one.
@StackedCrooked I noticed that we got the 'tame' end of the thunderstorms on buienradar.nl
Fuck it, I do my drop shadows myself.
@CatPlusPlus now that... I can see a committee decision based on that. Oh well
21:44
All shadows are now required to be made by hand.
Free-hand shadows!
That's what I do.
In C++ it's bad practice to throw from destructors. Is this a problem inherent to C++ or is it a common pattern shared among different kinds of error handling. For example is it also in Java a bad practice to throw from the finally block?
Java will throw up checked exceptions all over you.
Other than that, it's pretty much harmless.
@CatPlusPlus That is an orthogonal issue I would think.
@StackedCrooked Alt+PrintScreen. Yeah.... sometimes Windows gets things right.
21:47
Well, you need to handle checked exceptions, wherever they are.
@StackedCrooked Try files in Java.
@RMartinhoFernandes try files { ... }?
You only need to be careful about throwing from dtors in C++ because of the Terminator lurking around stack unwinding.
@CatPlusPlus The terminator is defined behavior. So nothing to worry about, right? :)
You can't interrupt stack unwind in Java.
21:49
Nov 9 '11 at 9:17, by R. Martinho Fernandes
try {
    FileInputStream f = new FileInputStream("blah");
    try {
        // do stuff
    } finally {
        try {
            f.close();
        } catch(IOException e) {
            // what now?
        }
    }
} catch(FileNotFoundException e) {
    // oops
}
If your code executes, then stack unwind is over.
@StackedCrooked This.
close on files throwing checked exception is one of the stupidest things ever.
You can show a message box "Couldn't close file, please try again.", I guess.
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Wow. Really? "Shift-Command-F4 followed by the space bar"?! Incredible. It's simply Alt+Print on Windows. And those Mac aficionados always try to tell us how simple to use the Mac is.
@sbi But it makes drop shadows!
21:50
lol
3 mins ago, by Xaade
@StackedCrooked Alt+PrintScreen. Yeah.... sometimes Windows gets things right.
@sbi It makes sense if you are used to it.. Argh..
sbi
sbi
@Xaade Um. I'm sorry. I overlooked that.
anyone ever try to find why a mac doesn't boot?
I use MWSnap.
21:51
I did, and I'm not impressed by Apple's very limited error message
@sbi why sorry.
@TonyTheLion What's that useful for?
@CatPlusPlus oh hey, § 12.5/9 [ Note: If a deallocation function has no explicit exception-specification, it is treated as if it were specified with noexcept(true) (15.4). —end note ]
sbi
sbi
@StackedCrooked Yeah. Right. Like not terminating nested templates with >>. That makes sense, too.
@RMartinhoFernandes for when it doesn't boot
21:52
@TonyTheLion Oh, sorry, I misread that as "anyone ever try to find a mac that doesn't boot?"
which a friend of mine once had, and the machine told us exactly nothing. At least in Windows you get some kind of error message
Which would be silly. Oops.
@RMartinhoFernandes lol
@TonyTheLion Remove OSX, install sane system?
Shift-Command-F4 allows you to define a screenshot by dragging an area with the mouse pointer. However, if you press the space button then the mouse pointer will highlight the window you are hovering over. So you can then move the mouse pointer over the window you want to capture and click. Then the screeshot file appears on the desktop. It sounds verbose, but if you actually do it it turns out to be qutie handy.
21:54
And then weep "iPaid too much".
@TonyTheLion Have a corruption in the MSI transaction log. Toasted right there. All you get is a 0xblarghle, and posting it on MSDN gives little more than "Hmm.... We've never got that one before"
@CatPlusPlus Weeping not included.
@CatPlusPlus lol
@StackedCrooked I prefer screenshot on clipboard.
21:55
@Xaade not saying windows is perfect, but something is better then just nothing, and rebooting constantly forever
@TonyTheLion Sorry, that was a bad point in my life.
Just mentioning a Mac feature turns people defensive here.
I once made 6 the default runlevel of one of my school's computers.
I was curious about what would happen.
@Xaade oh, :(
What happened was exactly what I expected: it rebooted constantly forever.
21:56
lol
@StackedCrooked Right.
guess you know how to turn that phenomena on then...
@RMartinhoFernandes Forever a reboot.
Very right.
@TonyTheLion Friend's laptop could no longer use MSI to install or uninstall, and MSDN forum workers couldn't figure out why. Said the code never occured before.
21:57
I don't even know what's happening there.
@Xaade oh that sucks
@CatPlusPlus If you are referring to the movie I posted. Don't mind. It's a from a silly parody series. (Think Scary Movie.)
@StackedCrooked I don't speak spanish or whatever that language is
Gibberish.
Gibberish! (This one I can actually understand though)
21:58
@TonyTheLion The thing that started the charade was the fact that a particular professor required software X to run on their machine in order to access notes for the class (notes they didn't give in class).
@TonyTheLion Neither do I. Except that I do understand a little bit of the Japanese.
Scary Movie at least had boobs.
Skip to 3:50.
@Xaade oh right
21:59
Lol.

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